Reply
Results 1 to 19 of 19
  1. #1
    Registered User RockingDad's Avatar
    Join Date: Aug 2009
    Location: United Kingdom (Great Britain)
    Age: 49
    Posts: 25
    Rep Power: 0
    RockingDad has no reputation, good or bad yet. (0) RockingDad has no reputation, good or bad yet. (0)
    RockingDad is offline

    Protein shakes...stop using them and loose muscle?

    Hey everyone,

    This may be a noob question but here we go...

    I've just started on whey protein shakes to get my muscle back after a period of illness last year and a break from lifting. I got to seeing some improvements on definition before I had to stop.

    Started again two weeks ago and seem to have some size improvements already but my question is if I stop the shakes and can't get the protein via dietary means will I loose the muscle or so long as I keep lifting i'll maintain it?

    i'm doing the 5x5 program on compound lifts.

    Cheers

    RockingDad
    regenerating after being broken
    Reply With Quote

  2. #2
    Progress not Perfection cowboybiker's Avatar
    Join Date: Nov 2010
    Location: San Bernardino, California, United States
    Age: 59
    Posts: 32,348
    Rep Power: 186676
    cowboybiker has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) cowboybiker has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) cowboybiker has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) cowboybiker has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) cowboybiker has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) cowboybiker has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) cowboybiker has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) cowboybiker has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) cowboybiker has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) cowboybiker has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) cowboybiker has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000)
    cowboybiker is offline
    Originally Posted by RockingDad View Post
    Hey everyone,

    This may be a noob question but here we go...

    I've just started on whey protein shakes to get my muscle back after a period of illness last year and a break from lifting. I got to seeing some improvements on definition before I had to stop.

    Started again two weeks ago and seem to have some size improvements already but my question is if I stop the shakes and can't get the protein via dietary means will I loose the muscle or so long as I keep lifting i'll maintain it?

    i'm doing the 5x5 program on compound lifts.

    Cheers

    RockingDad

    Have you considered gettin protien via Steak, Chicken or Pork ???
    Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude. – Thomas Jefferson


    Be yourself; Everyone else is already taken. - Oscar Wilde
    Reply With Quote

  3. #3
    Registered User stayfit2008's Avatar
    Join Date: Jan 2008
    Location: Pennsylvania, United States
    Posts: 9,430
    Rep Power: 8494
    stayfit2008 is a name known to all. (+5000) stayfit2008 is a name known to all. (+5000) stayfit2008 is a name known to all. (+5000) stayfit2008 is a name known to all. (+5000) stayfit2008 is a name known to all. (+5000) stayfit2008 is a name known to all. (+5000) stayfit2008 is a name known to all. (+5000) stayfit2008 is a name known to all. (+5000) stayfit2008 is a name known to all. (+5000) stayfit2008 is a name known to all. (+5000) stayfit2008 is a name known to all. (+5000)
    stayfit2008 is offline
    Keep the Protein shakes in. Find out what your maintanence protein intake should be,..whatever you cant get from whole food supplement with powder or bars,...
    2009 NGA Masters Pro Bodybuilder and Athlete.

    "I dont stop when Im tired,..I stop when Im done"
    Reply With Quote

  4. #4
    Canis Belli Whiskeyjack's Avatar
    Join Date: Aug 2007
    Location: British Columbia, Canada
    Age: 60
    Posts: 5,385
    Rep Power: 8551
    Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000)
    Whiskeyjack is offline
    Originally Posted by cowboybiker View Post
    Have you considered gettin protien via Steak, Chicken or Pork ???
    Fcukin' A bubba - chicken, steak, fish, eggs...I.e. real food.
    "An infraction is better than an infarction."
    - Aldington and Adlington

    "Cursus sub pondere crescit."
    - Anon
    Reply With Quote

  5. #5
    Potentate DaddyR's Avatar
    Join Date: Jan 2002
    Location: Maryland, United States
    Age: 61
    Posts: 4,569
    Rep Power: 0
    DaddyR is not very helpful. (-500) DaddyR is not very helpful. (-500) DaddyR is not very helpful. (-500) DaddyR is not very helpful. (-500) DaddyR is not very helpful. (-500) DaddyR is not very helpful. (-500) DaddyR is not very helpful. (-500) DaddyR is not very helpful. (-500) DaddyR is not very helpful. (-500) DaddyR is not very helpful. (-500) DaddyR is not very helpful. (-500)
    DaddyR is offline
    Logic dictates that if you keep lifting with sufficient intensity to break down muscle tissue and do not eat enough protein to repair the damage being done, that yes you will lose some muscle mass.

    While your body can break down protein to create energy, I do not believe the reverse is true: your body cannot create amino acids and thus protein out of carbohydrates or fats.
    Overweight and arrogant
    Reply With Quote

  6. #6
    Bammed Marius_Ursus's Avatar
    Join Date: Jun 2008
    Location: New York, United States
    Age: 54
    Posts: 24,185
    Rep Power: 56428
    Marius_Ursus has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) Marius_Ursus has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) Marius_Ursus has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) Marius_Ursus has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) Marius_Ursus has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) Marius_Ursus has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) Marius_Ursus has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) Marius_Ursus has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) Marius_Ursus has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) Marius_Ursus has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000) Marius_Ursus has much to be proud of. One of the best! (+20000)
    Marius_Ursus is offline
    Originally Posted by cowboybiker View Post
    Have you considered gettin protien via Steak, Chicken or Pork ???
    Pork...how do I love thee? Let me count the ways.

    Bacon
    Rashers
    Trotters
    Shanks
    Shoulder roast
    Ham
    Chops
    Fat belly
    Seasonings
    Carnitas
    Knuckles
    Marrow
    Ribs...oh, G-d, ribs...
    "Blessed be the Lord my rock, who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle." - Psalm 144:1

    Also, taxation is theft.
    Reply With Quote

  7. #7
    Eating.... trev71's Avatar
    Join Date: Jan 2011
    Location: Vermont, United States
    Age: 52
    Posts: 2,054
    Rep Power: 8178
    trev71 is a name known to all. (+5000) trev71 is a name known to all. (+5000) trev71 is a name known to all. (+5000) trev71 is a name known to all. (+5000) trev71 is a name known to all. (+5000) trev71 is a name known to all. (+5000) trev71 is a name known to all. (+5000) trev71 is a name known to all. (+5000) trev71 is a name known to all. (+5000) trev71 is a name known to all. (+5000) trev71 is a name known to all. (+5000)
    trev71 is offline
    Originally Posted by marius_ursus View Post
    bacon
    o.m.g. Bacon !!!
    --
    Knows a trial lawyer who knows how to defend himself in an online forum.
    Reply With Quote

  8. #8
    Canis Belli Whiskeyjack's Avatar
    Join Date: Aug 2007
    Location: British Columbia, Canada
    Age: 60
    Posts: 5,385
    Rep Power: 8551
    Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000)
    Whiskeyjack is offline
    Originally Posted by Marius_Ursus View Post
    Pork...how do I love thee? Let me count the ways.

    Bacon
    Rashers
    Trotters
    Shanks
    Shoulder roast
    Ham
    Chops
    Fat belly
    Seasonings
    Carnitas
    Knuckles
    Marrow
    Ribs...oh, G-d, ribs...
    ^^^
    Slobber slobber...

    There's a great place in Vancouver called Memphis Blue that does pork in the southern tradition, and huge helpings. Every time I'm in that city I have to work hard to avoid MB's tractor beam of olfactory-memory...
    "An infraction is better than an infarction."
    - Aldington and Adlington

    "Cursus sub pondere crescit."
    - Anon
    Reply With Quote

  9. #9
    Bootless Errand ironwill2008's Avatar
    Join Date: Feb 2008
    Location: United States
    Posts: 85,695
    Rep Power: 1680970
    ironwill2008 has the mod powerz ironwill2008 has the mod powerz ironwill2008 has the mod powerz ironwill2008 has the mod powerz ironwill2008 has the mod powerz ironwill2008 has the mod powerz ironwill2008 has the mod powerz ironwill2008 has the mod powerz ironwill2008 has the mod powerz ironwill2008 has the mod powerz ironwill2008 has the mod powerz
    ironwill2008 is offline
    Originally Posted by DaddyR View Post
    Logic dictates that if you keep lifting with sufficient intensity to break down muscle tissue and do not eat enough protein to repair the damage being done, that yes you will lose some muscle mass.

    While your body can break down protein to create energy, I do not believe the reverse is true: your body cannot create amino acids and thus protein out of carbohydrates or fats.
    ^^^^This.

    Protein is the only macro source your body can use to build/maintain muscle tissue. If you're consistently deficient in your protein intake, you'll lose muscle over time, as well as your overall health.

    As has been already stated, you can use protein powder, or you can use regular food to meet your daily requirements, regular food being the preferred source.
    No brain, no gain.

    "The fitness and nutrition world is a breeding ground for obsessive-compulsive behavior. The irony is that many of the things people worry about have no impact on results either way, and therefore aren't worth an ounce of concern."--Alan Aragon

    Where the mind goes, the body follows.

    Ironwill Gym:
    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=629719403&postcount=3388


    Ironwill2008 Journal:
    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=157459343&p=1145168733
    Reply With Quote

  10. #10
    Registered User groink's Avatar
    Join Date: Mar 2009
    Location: Gilbert, Arizona, United States
    Age: 58
    Posts: 594
    Rep Power: 532
    groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250)
    groink is offline
    Originally Posted by Whiskeyjack View Post
    Fcukin' A bubba - chicken, steak, fish, eggs...I.e. real food.
    And what is a protein shake......fake food ?
    If you never get OUT of it.....you'll never have to "get back into it"
    Reply With Quote

  11. #11
    Canis Belli Whiskeyjack's Avatar
    Join Date: Aug 2007
    Location: British Columbia, Canada
    Age: 60
    Posts: 5,385
    Rep Power: 8551
    Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000)
    Whiskeyjack is offline
    Originally Posted by groink View Post
    And what is a protein shake......fake food ?
    I'm under attack by Groink! I'd hoped this would never happen. I admire your physique Groink.

    I meant solid food. Not a real fan of shakes. I know they can be good, but as an extra, not a replacement.
    "An infraction is better than an infarction."
    - Aldington and Adlington

    "Cursus sub pondere crescit."
    - Anon
    Reply With Quote

  12. #12
    Registered User groink's Avatar
    Join Date: Mar 2009
    Location: Gilbert, Arizona, United States
    Age: 58
    Posts: 594
    Rep Power: 532
    groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250)
    groink is offline
    Originally Posted by Whiskeyjack View Post
    I'm under attack by Groink! I'd hoped this would never happen. I admire your physique Groink.

    I meant solid food. Not a real fan of shakes. I know they can be good, but as an extra, not a replacement.

    Thanks man....to me it's all the same. food is food.

    I drink two shakes a day for a quick, high quality 120 grams of protein and about 800 cals.

    What i do is put 50 grams of IDS dutch chocolate,

    a whole egg,

    a (small) squirt of Hersheys dark chocolate syrup about a tablespoon,

    some crushed ice,

    8 0z 1% milk.....Blend it up for a few minutes and BOOM, delicious.

    I don't have time to cook and prepare actual meals every time i eat....who does ?

    Think I'll make one right now.....they are yummy


    EDIT: You looked damn good yourself a while back
    If you never get OUT of it.....you'll never have to "get back into it"
    Reply With Quote

  13. #13
    Registered User JerryB's Avatar
    Join Date: Nov 2004
    Location: California, United States
    Age: 75
    Posts: 4,873
    Rep Power: 14836
    JerryB is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) JerryB is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) JerryB is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) JerryB is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) JerryB is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) JerryB is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) JerryB is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) JerryB is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) JerryB is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) JerryB is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) JerryB is a splendid one to behold. (+10000)
    JerryB is offline
    Originally Posted by DaddyR View Post
    Logic dictates that if you keep lifting with sufficient intensity to break down muscle tissue and do not eat enough protein to repair the damage being done, that yes you will lose some muscle mass.

    While your body can break down protein to create energy, I do not believe the reverse is true: your body cannot create amino acids and thus protein out of carbohydrates or fats.
    ^^^^^Great explanation.
    How can you visualize training a muscle if you don't know its structure?
    Reply With Quote

  14. #14
    Canis Belli Whiskeyjack's Avatar
    Join Date: Aug 2007
    Location: British Columbia, Canada
    Age: 60
    Posts: 5,385
    Rep Power: 8551
    Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000)
    Whiskeyjack is offline
    Originally Posted by groink View Post
    Thanks man....to me it's all the same. food is food.

    I drink two shakes a day for a quick, high quality 120 grams of protein and about 800 cals.

    What i do is put 50 grams of IDS dutch chocolate,

    a whole egg,

    a (small) squirt of Hersheys dark chocolate syrup about a tablespoon,

    some crushed ice,

    8 0z 1% milk.....Blend it up for a few minutes and BOOM, delicious.

    I don't have time to cook and prepare actual meals every time i eat....who does ?

    Think I'll make one right now.....they are yummy


    EDIT: You looked damn good yourself a while back
    Actually those shakes sound great! The egg and milk, very straightforward, no nonsense powders and pills. Very good.

    Yes, I'll look good again soon enough. I'll be posting a progress pic soon. Thanks.
    "An infraction is better than an infarction."
    - Aldington and Adlington

    "Cursus sub pondere crescit."
    - Anon
    Reply With Quote

  15. #15
    Registered User nixter's Avatar
    Join Date: Jan 2007
    Age: 48
    Posts: 1,002
    Rep Power: 625
    nixter has a spectacular aura about. (+250) nixter has a spectacular aura about. (+250) nixter has a spectacular aura about. (+250) nixter has a spectacular aura about. (+250) nixter has a spectacular aura about. (+250) nixter has a spectacular aura about. (+250) nixter has a spectacular aura about. (+250) nixter has a spectacular aura about. (+250) nixter has a spectacular aura about. (+250) nixter has a spectacular aura about. (+250) nixter has a spectacular aura about. (+250)
    nixter is offline
    Originally Posted by groink View Post
    Thanks man....to me it's all the same. food is food.

    I drink two shakes a day for a quick, high quality 120 grams of protein and about 800 cals.

    What i do is put 50 grams of IDS dutch chocolate,

    a whole egg,

    a (small) squirt of Hersheys dark chocolate syrup about a tablespoon,

    some crushed ice,

    8 0z 1% milk.....Blend it up for a few minutes and BOOM, delicious.

    I don't have time to cook and prepare actual meals every time i eat....who does ?

    Think I'll make one right now.....they are yummy


    EDIT: You looked damn good yourself a while back

    Sounds tasty. I used to use the Hershey's liquid but the extra sugar bothered me. I switched to 100% cocoa powder. It tastes better (less sweet) and has 3g carbs, 2g fibre, 1gram fat and 1g protein per tbsp. I use about 1/2 tbsp. I know a small squirt of the liquid doesnt add that much sugar but switching was win-win.

    Anyhow, back on topic..
    Reply With Quote

  16. #16
    Registered User groink's Avatar
    Join Date: Mar 2009
    Location: Gilbert, Arizona, United States
    Age: 58
    Posts: 594
    Rep Power: 532
    groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250) groink has a spectacular aura about. (+250)
    groink is offline
    Originally Posted by nixter View Post
    Sounds tasty. I used to use the Hershey's liquid but the extra sugar bothered me. I switched to 100% cocoa powder. It tastes better (less sweet) and has 3g carbs, 2g fibre, 1gram fat and 1g protein per tbsp. I use about 1/2 tbsp. I know a small squirt of the liquid doesnt add that much sugar but switching was win-win.

    Anyhow, back on topic..
    Think I'll give that a try
    If you never get OUT of it.....you'll never have to "get back into it"
    Reply With Quote

  17. #17
    Canis Belli Whiskeyjack's Avatar
    Join Date: Aug 2007
    Location: British Columbia, Canada
    Age: 60
    Posts: 5,385
    Rep Power: 8551
    Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000) Whiskeyjack is a name known to all. (+5000)
    Whiskeyjack is offline
    Originally Posted by groink View Post
    Think I'll give that a try
    I will too. I haven't had a shake in 25 years (admittedly when I did drink them they were honest to goodness like Groink's, not these super booster powder things for sale everywhere). I like the simplicity. See if it works. I have a bit of a lactose intolerance but I can handle smallish amounts of skim.
    "An infraction is better than an infarction."
    - Aldington and Adlington

    "Cursus sub pondere crescit."
    - Anon
    Reply With Quote

  18. #18
    Registered User nixter's Avatar
    Join Date: Jan 2007
    Age: 48
    Posts: 1,002
    Rep Power: 625
    nixter has a spectacular aura about. (+250) nixter has a spectacular aura about. (+250) nixter has a spectacular aura about. (+250) nixter has a spectacular aura about. (+250) nixter has a spectacular aura about. (+250) nixter has a spectacular aura about. (+250) nixter has a spectacular aura about. (+250) nixter has a spectacular aura about. (+250) nixter has a spectacular aura about. (+250) nixter has a spectacular aura about. (+250) nixter has a spectacular aura about. (+250)
    nixter is offline
    I don't want turn this into a shake recipe thread but given my heavy reliance on shakes due to my work schedule I'll share my favorite one that I drink twice a day and NEVER get sick of. I'm picky about taste so I've tried all kinds in the past and I always got sick of them until I came up with this.

    200 ml 2% milk
    Half a frozen banana. (I pre-peel 10-12 bananas, chop them in 2 inch chunks and freeze them.)
    One LARGE scoop of Natural peanut butter. (I keep it in the fridge so it's semi solid and cold)
    1/2 tbsp cocoa powder
    1 or 2 scoops Iso Sensation Cafe Brazil protein powder. (This part is key to the good taste)

    I hand blend this up into a thick milkshake like consistency. It's like eating desert twice a day.
    Reply With Quote

  19. #19
    Registered User VIsland's Avatar
    Join Date: Jun 2010
    Location: Nanaimo, B.C., Canada
    Age: 55
    Posts: 2,009
    Rep Power: 632
    VIsland has a spectacular aura about. (+250) VIsland has a spectacular aura about. (+250) VIsland has a spectacular aura about. (+250) VIsland has a spectacular aura about. (+250) VIsland has a spectacular aura about. (+250) VIsland has a spectacular aura about. (+250) VIsland has a spectacular aura about. (+250) VIsland has a spectacular aura about. (+250) VIsland has a spectacular aura about. (+250) VIsland has a spectacular aura about. (+250) VIsland has a spectacular aura about. (+250)
    VIsland is offline
    Originally Posted by groink View Post
    Thanks man....to me it's all the same. food is food.

    I drink two shakes a day for a quick, high quality 120 grams of protein and about 800 cals.

    What i do is put 50 grams of IDS dutch chocolate,

    a whole egg,

    a (small) squirt of Hersheys dark chocolate syrup about a tablespoon,

    some crushed ice,

    8 0z 1% milk.....Blend it up for a few minutes and BOOM, delicious.

    I don't have time to cook and prepare actual meals every time i eat....who does ?

    Think I'll make one right now.....they are yummy


    EDIT: You looked damn good yourself a while back
    Careful bro this supplement talk is blasphemy on this forum
    Reply With Quote

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 17
    Last Post: 02-28-2006, 03:04 AM
  2. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-11-2005, 02:25 PM
  3. Two protein shakes on training day and one on off day
    By RichTK in forum Teen Bodybuilding
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 02-01-2005, 01:44 PM
  4. How many protein shakes do you drink and when?
    By chad12121 in forum Supplements
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 08-24-2004, 09:23 AM
  5. trying to stop using caffine and ECA stack
    By mntbikedude in forum Supplements
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 04-09-2004, 02:36 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts