Compounded exercises

[Chooky]

If I do 6 sets of 15 reps per muscle group, how many sets should be a compound movement? I dont know!

[TurbulentFluid]

There isn't any strict rules.
Personally, I alternate between programs that use 100% compound movements (mass gain) and 50% compound movements (cutting).
You have a very high rep range, tho - whatever you do will build endurance and very little muscle, so I don't think it really matters what you do, there won't be much difference...

[Firepower]

there's really no magic number. But it’s a generally accepted principle that as you increase the number of reps, you decrease the number of sets.....and vice versa.

[Chooky]

Oh no! I want indurance - but what I really want is MUSCLE! Should I be doing lower reps? 8-12?? Does this change the answers to my compound questions?!?

[Firepower]

the high rep ranges will work your slow twitch fibers (type-I), which are used for endurance. whereas, the lower rep ranges work your fast twitch fibers (type-IIa/b), which are used during the heavy lifting. the fast twitch fibers have the most potential for growth. the hypertrophy range (muscle growth) is between 8-12 reps

[bassing68]

If I do 6 sets of 15 reps per muscle group, how many sets should be a compound movement? I dont know!

If you are able to do more than 6 reps you are too light and not building for strength....What are your goals= strength, mass, just general shape???

[TurbulentFluid]

Bump, be more precise about your goals and background, both is very important... Why do you need endurance? Are you an athlete of some other sort, not a bb-er? That makes a difference.
Although, do I disagree about 6 reps limit, 8-10 is OK for hypertrophy, 4-6 is more of a pro-strength rep range.

Look... generally, and I do mean generally, the field looks like this: you use compounds for building, mass, and endurance and they're quite efficient. 0 isolation work is quite acceptable and you'll get decent results, specially at the beginning - regardless of your rep range.
Isolation work is mainly for shaping. So you already have those big delts and want them defined, separated, shaped and ripped? Diet is No.1, but you'll need to add some lat raises to your barbell presses.

I'm not saying don't do any isolation, I'm saying - use your common sense. You can work out your lats, biceps, forearms and traps in isolation (machine rows, bb curls, wrist curls, and upright rows), but you can also do some serious sets of heavy barbell rows and deadlifts and get REALLY good results on all 4 mentioned muscles PLUS lower back and hamstrings AND abs! See where I'm going with this? Now if every now and then you do some serious isolation for a week or two, or just add a few sets at the end of your workout (specially for problem areas), you'll be all set.
It's important to understand the purpose of exercises and set them adjacent to your goals. Concentration and preacher curls are the difference between a big strong biceps, and a big strong biceps with 3 visible heads. You don't specifically NEED isolation to build muscle - but it does come in handy.

[Chooky]

be more precise about your goals and background, both is very important... Why do you need endurance? Are you an athlete of some other sort, not a bb-er? That makes a difference.

I am an aerobics instructor, which kinda makes it hard to fit in resistance training. I would like a figure like a fitness competitor - they look so hot! So my goal is to build muscle mass and decrease %BF - without becoming too fatigued, or so sore that I can't do my classes. I really can't commit more than an hour a day to strength and flexibility - but I would like to compete - just to scared to set a date atm!!

[TurbulentFluid]

Well on a good program, 45 mins training a day is more than sufficient! Since you're already doing aerobics classes - that's your cardio&endurance training and TOO MUCH of it! I'd concentrate on heavy compound lifting (6-8 rep range) and try to build as much muscle as I can if I were you, as you're likely to burn a lot of your hard lifting work through cardio!
What is your aerobics shedule? (intensity+amount)?

[Defiant1]

If I do 6 sets of 15 reps per muscle group, how many sets should be a compound movement? I dont know!

First, it is better to think of BASICS as opposed to COMPOUNDS.

BASIC exercises are exercises that work the muscle in it's mid-range, where maximum growth and strength occur. Exercises like BB curls, Tricep extensions, Shrugs, Calf Raises are not "compound" (in the gym sense) but are certainly basics. Conversely, a Nautilus Decline Press is a compound exercises but is not a basic size/strength builder.

A good balance would be to do 4 sets of a basic exercise for a bodypart, and 2 sets of an assistance exercise.

Example: Chest: Dumbbell Incline Press, 4 x 15. Flat bench flye 2 x 15.

[bassing68]

First, it is better to think of BASICS as opposed to COMPOUNDS.

BASIC exercises are exercises that work the muscle in it's mid-range, where maximum growth and strength occur. Exercises like BB curls, Tricep extensions, Shrugs, Calf Raises are not "compound" (in the gym sense) but are certainly basics. Conversely, a Nautilus Decline Press is a compound exercises but is not a basic size/strength builder.

A good balance would be to do 4 sets of a basic exercise for a bodypart, and 2 sets of an assistance exercise.

Example: Chest: Dumbbell Incline Press, 4 x 15. Flat bench flye 2 x 15.

No, no. no. Compounds are where it's at especially for a newb. They will work every group possible and then some. Should wait a few months to find weaknesses and see what needs shaped.

[TurbulentFluid]

No, no. no. Compounds are where it's at especially for a newb. They will work every group possible and then some. Should wait a few months to find weaknesses and see what needs shaped.

Bump.

[Defiant1]

No, no. no. Compounds are where it's at especially for a newb. They will work every group possible and then some. Should wait a few months to find weaknesses and see what needs shaped.

A compound exercise has no virtue of it's own. I said BASICS not ISOLATION/COMPOUNDS. BASICS are not "shaping" exercises.

There is no need to rethink this, the people that came before did all the figuring for you. That's why BASIC exercises are....BASIC exercises.

But since people won't listen, they need a technical explanation.

By YOUR logic, a Nautilus Decline press is the same as a Dumbbell Decline Press in terms of effect and appropriateness for a beginner; both are compound exercises.

This comes up so often, I actually saved a response I typed previously to this:

To me it is pretty simple.

Almost foolproof.

I feel like a broken record saying it.

Three things make an exercise a size builder (BASIC) for any given individual:

Two of them are for anyone, the third, for that individual.

1. High NMA or neuromuscular activation. The nervous system must react strongly to the movement. Accomplished by doing exercises that move the body through space, or with BBs, or with DBs. Free weight isolation exercises have as high or a higher NMA than machine compounds.*

2. Maximized Actin/Myosin pairing. Muscles exert their greatest force from about 110 of joint angle. Since the more myosin/actin pairings are optimal (read, lined up) the more force the muscle can exert, this explains why some isolation exercises are size builders, and some aren't. E.G. BB curls ARE, concentration curls ARE NOT. Lying Extensions ARE, skullcrushers ARE, kickbacks ARE NOT. Shrugs ARE. Calve raises ARE. Wrist curls ARE. **

3. For an individual, the given exercise must have enough RELATIVE isolation to elicit protein degradation on the target. If you are doing rows, and not hitting your lats, you need to find a different exercise. Going through the motions doesn't work. This is why the bench press builds huge pecs in some, but not in others. ***



*explains why leg extensions, despite being more direct, do not build as much size in the quads as squats. Why leg presses don't build as much size as squats.


**explains also WHY non-optimal isos DO elicit certain targeting effects-i.e. DB flyes-outer pecs, Cable crossovers-inner pecs, etc. ALSO explains why chins and rows DON'T build great biceps for many (exercises start with biceps in or toward contracted position-not good ratcheting action for most myosin/actin pairs)

***explains why lateral raises are needed by most for lateral deltoids-presses simply don't target the area enough to elicit a strong response.

Cliff notes:

Not all compounds are basics.

An exercise is a BASIC exercise if it targets the muscle with optimum myosin/actin pairing-the MIDRANGE.

The exercise must also elicit a strong neural response (NMA).

It would be silly to not do the few exercises that are Class 2 levers because they are not "compounds"-Calf Raises, Wrist Curls, Shrugs...

[TurbulentFluid]

Nice point...

However, the main reason why COMPOUND FREE WEIGHT EXERCISES are superior to anything else in beginning stage, is that they build overall muscle mass AND strength evenly by stimulating both the main muscle groups, and the supporting muscle groups.
So I'd not define compound as "using more than one joint", I'd define compound as "using more than one muscle/group". They are the closest as you get to natural body movement - while doing bench press you're moving the weight in a 3D world of 9 degrees of freedom and you have to employ all of yourself to keep it stabile. The nautilus machine has much less degrees of freedom (depends of the make), and employs MUCH less of your body. You can safely say machines actually attempt to work muscles in isolation, and are in no way compound. Same thing with squats - fighting 100 kg in 9 degrees of freedom is MUCH more difficult than doing it in a smith machine where you have to worry about a single plane of motion.

What you define as "basic", if you think about it, ARE compound freeweight exercises. Standing bicep curl? Yeah sure you're using only one joint, but perform the motion and see what muscles groups are ACTUALLY at work here - and you'll see your legs, core, abs, hell - everything, is doing the work in order to keep your body in the properly stiff position to be able to absorb the barbell momentum.

So in essence I completely agree with you - it's just the matter of definition of the terms.

[Defiant1]

Nice point...

However, the main reason why COMPOUND FREE WEIGHT EXERCISES are superior to anything else in beginning stage, is that they build overall muscle mass AND strength evenly by stimulating both the main muscle groups, and the supporting muscle groups.
So I'd not define compound as "using more than one joint", I'd define compound as "using more than one muscle/group". They are the closest as you get to natural body movement - while doing bench press you're moving the weight in a 3D world of 9 degrees of freedom and you have to employ all of yourself to keep it stabile. The nautilus machine has much less degrees of freedom (depends of the make), and employs MUCH less of your body. You can safely say machines actually attempt to work muscles in isolation, and are in no way compound. Same thing with squats - fighting 100 kg in 9 degrees of freedom is MUCH more difficult than doing it in a smith machine where you have to worry about a single plane of motion.

What you define as "basic", if you think about it, ARE compound freeweight exercises. Standing bicep curl? Yeah sure you're using only one joint, but perform the motion and see what muscles groups are ACTUALLY at work here - and you'll see your legs, core, abs, hell - everything, is doing the work in order to keep your body in the properly stiff position to be able to absorb the barbell momentum.

So in essence I completely agree with you - it's just the matter of definition of the terms.

The definition you listed as an advantage is the advantage of free weights in general, which my definition addressed.

There are, however, free weight exercises that are neither compound nor basic and really aren't appropriate for beginners. That is why I made the distinction.

[daYDreAmErX]

If you are able to do more than 6 reps you are too light and not building for strength....What are your goals= strength, mass, just general shape???

Stupid idea. I deadlift 200 lbs for 12 reps so I'm going light

Yeah, sure...

[TurbulentFluid]

If you're deadlifting 200 lbs for 12 reps you're in the endurance rep range. Total number of pounds you're lifting is irrelevant; as well as is the fact that I wouldn't be able to move 200 lbs and Titania would probably deadlift it with her pinky.
Your muscles can't count pounds, they just do their thing.

[Chooky]

Wow - I never thought my simple question would turn into this!

[bassing68]

A compound exercise has no virtue of it's own. I said BASICS not ISOLATION/COMPOUNDS. BASICS are not "shaping" exercises.

There is no need to rethink this, the people that came before did all the figuring for you. That's why BASIC exercises are....BASIC exercises.

But since people won't listen, they need a technical explanation.

By YOUR logic, a Nautilus Decline press is the same as a Dumbbell Decline Press in terms of effect and appropriateness for a beginner; both are compound exercises.

This comes up so often, I actually saved a response I typed previously to this:

To me it is pretty simple.

Almost foolproof.

I feel like a broken record saying it.

Three things make an exercise a size builder (BASIC) for any given individual:

Two of them are for anyone, the third, for that individual.

1. High NMA or neuromuscular activation. The nervous system must react strongly to the movement. Accomplished by doing exercises that move the body through space, or with BBs, or with DBs. Free weight isolation exercises have as high or a higher NMA than machine compounds.*

2. Maximized Actin/Myosin pairing. Muscles exert their greatest force from about 110 of joint angle. Since the more myosin/actin pairings are optimal (read, lined up) the more force the muscle can exert, this explains why some isolation exercises are size builders, and some aren't. E.G. BB curls ARE, concentration curls ARE NOT. Lying Extensions ARE, skullcrushers ARE, kickbacks ARE NOT. Shrugs ARE. Calve raises ARE. Wrist curls ARE. **

3. For an individual, the given exercise must have enough RELATIVE isolation to elicit protein degradation on the target. If you are doing rows, and not hitting your lats, you need to find a different exercise. Going through the motions doesn't work. This is why the bench press builds huge pecs in some, but not in others. ***



*explains why leg extensions, despite being more direct, do not build as much size in the quads as squats. Why leg presses don't build as much size as squats.


**explains also WHY non-optimal isos DO elicit certain targeting effects-i.e. DB flyes-outer pecs, Cable crossovers-inner pecs, etc. ALSO explains why chins and rows DON'T build great biceps for many (exercises start with biceps in or toward contracted position-not good ratcheting action for most myosin/actin pairs)

***explains why lateral raises are needed by most for lateral deltoids-presses simply don't target the area enough to elicit a strong response.

Cliff notes:

Not all compounds are basics.

An exercise is a BASIC exercise if it targets the muscle with optimum myosin/actin pairing-the MIDRANGE.

The exercise must also elicit a strong neural response (NMA).

It would be silly to not do the few exercises that are Class 2 levers because they are not "compounds"-Calf Raises, Wrist Curls, Shrugs...

My bad. You did say basics and I was just assuming this person wanted to increase strength which may not even be the case. Sorry, Defiant1, I goofed up and misunderstood on this one.