Any ideas, low test, and pretty much can't build muscle?

[mojojonz]

Hey all,

It's been a while since posting. The reason for this post is to maybe get any wisdom from people in my situation. My situation I'm sure isn't that uncommon, in that I've lifting weights for years and years and have very little to show for it. I've read SO many threads and feel like I've exhausted most common errors. My current thinking is that basically, I'm old, 39yo have low testosterone, I've had it measured and need to accept my muscle gains are going to be very slow.

Summary.

- Weight currently 70kg 15%bf (measure using skin fold calipers)
- Age - almost 40
- Went and got my test. measured, it was border line abnormally low. Although, I don't appear have any other issues commonly associated with low test.
- Been following the Fierce 5 program for about 3 years have gone between novice and intermediate. I.e. after a long cut, I may go back on novice.
- I have very good calorie counting tracking, and have this part sorted. I can gain or lose weight exactly as I as want. Everything is measured and tracked.

THE PROBLEM

- I've been doing "Bulk/ cut " cycles for years now, and usually have stuck to around 300cal bulk and a 500-750cal cut.
- Typically I gain a little strength so i guess some muscle but honestly mostly fat.
- Then when I cut, I lose that little bit of strength and am back at the same weight, (although very trim). Have been as low as 8%BF, but would normally cut to say 10%
- Basically just spinning wheels with no overall upward trend. Imagine my weight as a zig zag line, as well as my strength.

A FEW THINGS I'VE OBSERVED
- The novice F5 routing is good for a few months, once I get to around 100kg back squat but simply wont add strength after that
- I think I definitely need to be on the upper/lower split
- I need A LOT of sleep, I've found a lack of sleep causes me to lose muscle on a bulk
- I have kids and am busy, so consistent sleep is hard but not impossible

UPPER LOW INTERMEDIATE 3 days week
- I've decided to do the U/L Int F5 program over 3 days a week, basically don't have the spare time for 4 days a week. i've read this ok, although slower progress

CALORIE SURPLUS
- My plan is cut to a low body AGAIN. Then simply try to gain weight at something like 50grams a day. Yes. I honestly don't think my body can build muscle like normal people.
- I think a 300cal surplus a day has been my downfall, here's the math
- Lets say I can only build 4kg (8 lbs) of lean muscle best case in a year (probably less). 8 x 3500 / 365 = 76cal surplus a day. Lets say I accept 50% is fat, i should be eating at 152cal surplus a day. I have now idea why 300cal a day is recommended, but that's crazy for me

CONCLUSION
- I'm prepared to accept I'm never going to be big. That dream has gone. But man it'd be nice to be able to put something on
- My plan is to cut to 8%, then "bulk" at 50-100cal a day while doing the F5 intermediate program but spread over 3 days.

Has anyone been in a situation like this and figure their way out of it!?
- I.e. is there a known better program than an U/L split that would guarantee some better gains?
- Would I be better off just trying to recomp?
- If you have low testosterone, do you simply need to up the volume way more? I just feel like a Upper/Lower split should set you right for a while.

[air2fakie]

Cutting down to 8% bf isn't going to be helpful to you in any way.

[mojojonz]

Cutting down to 8% bf isn't going to be helpful to you in any way.

Im only going to 8% cause I want a fresh start, I've typically only cut to ~10%. Having said that I don't understand why i would be harmful. I mean once Im at 8% I intend in going back to a surplus (although a smaller one).

I read everywhere, that "bulking" from a lean state is best. I wont be 8% for very long, I'm sure Ill be above 10% before long. And it's only about 2 weeks further cutting to go from 10 down to 8%

[air2fakie]

Im only going to 8% cause I want a fresh start, I've typically only cut to ~10%. Having said that I don't understand why i would be harmful. I mean once Im at 8% I intend in going back to a surplus (although a smaller one).

I read everywhere, that "bulking" from a lean state is best. I wont be 8% for very long, I'm sure Ill be above 10% before long. And it's only about 2 weeks further cutting to go from 10 down to 8%

Got it, well you know best since you have a history of what works for you personally.

THE PROBLEM

- I've been doing "Bulk/ cut " cycles for years now …
- Basically just spinning wheels with no overall upward trend.

At least you can continue just blaming “borderline” low test.

[mojojonz]

Got it, well you know best since you have a history of what works for you personally.



At least you can continue just blaming “borderline” low test.

Sorry if I missed lead in my response.

On the contrary I have no idea what works best for me and have been diligently following advise from the wider community on this forum.

I'm simply objectively stating that I had my test measured and it came back from the lab as borderline low. I don't know if that is a cause or not.

I've read all over this forum that getting lean before a bulk is wise which is typically what I've done.

Are you suggesting I've misinterpreted this?
What is most current best practice? To cut to a higher bf% say 12% .

[air2fakie]

Sorry if I missed lead in my response.

On the contrary I have no idea what works best for me and have been diligently following advise from the wider community on this forum.

I'm simply objectively stating that I had my test measured and it came back from the lab as borderline low. I don't know if that is a cause or not.

I've read all over this forum that getting lean before a bulk is wise which is typically what I've done.

Are you suggesting I've misinterpreted this?
What is most current best practice? To cut to a higher bf% say 12% .

I'm suggesting that if you've been spinning your wheels for "years and years" and making no progress whatsoever, don't keep doing the same thing. It's usually a combo of factors that leads to someone making literally no progress.

If you've been cutting between 8-10% bf to 15% for years & putting on mostly fat, don't keep doing it. That being said, I'm pretty sure your understanding of your own bf% from your calipers is incorrect.

If you're putting on mostly fat repeatedly, look at what you're eating - not just the calories. I'm guessing you eat oats, "clean foods" etc. all the time, never eat red meat, etc. If what you're eating isn't getting you the results you want for years & years, do something else entirely.

And why do you "definitely need to be on the F5 UL split", and then make it worse by doing it on a 3-day week rolling schedule? You'd be better off doing the 3-day novice & using the intermediate progression scheme. But more importantly, why do you keep running F5? If your training program isn't getting you the results you want for years & years, change it.

Seriously, just eat like an American & lift hard. I'm not saying things like sleep, "borderline" low T, etc. might not have some impact on your ability to put on muscle, but don't have a mindset like it has to be something other than things you can easily change like the food you eat, the program you use, and the effort & attitude you put into your lifting.

[mojojonz]

I'm suggesting that if you've been spinning your wheels for "years and years" and making no progress whatsoever, don't keep doing the same thing. It's usually a combo of factors that leads to someone making literally no progress.

If you've been cutting between 8-10% bf to 15% for years & putting on mostly fat, don't keep doing it. That being said, I'm pretty sure your understanding of your own bf% from your calipers is incorrect.

If you're putting on mostly fat repeatedly, look at what you're eating - not just the calories. I'm guessing you eat oats, "clean foods" etc. all the time, never eat red meat, etc. If what you're eating isn't getting you the results you want for years & years, do something else entirely.

And why do you "definitely need to be on the F5 UL split", and then make it worse by doing it on a 3-day week rolling schedule? You'd be better off doing the 3-day novice & using the intermediate progression scheme. But more importantly, why do you keep running F5? If your training program isn't getting you the results you want for years & years, change it.

Seriously, just eat like an American & lift hard. I'm not saying things like sleep, "borderline" low T, etc. might not have some impact on your ability to put on muscle, but don't have a mindset like it has to be something other than things you can easily change like the food you eat, the program you use, and the effort & attitude you put into your lifting.

Thanks for the response. Some good ideas for me in there! I definitely don't eat much meat. I don't need to be told twice to eat more haha

[weiss1967]

as always, air2fakie is on the ball. I can only add that if you are lifting “for years and years”, you could easily design your own programs.

Also, this 8% BF thing, you are talking competitive performing athlete level, if true. This isn’t sustainable for long periods of time, performing athletes can only delve into this level for competition. Further to this, in and by itself low BF% drags your test level down and brings a host of other stress-related issues.

[Mskywalkerr]

Id bulk for even longer than you have before and try add as much muscle as possible being even considering a cut. Being 8% bf natural for extended period's of time will smoke your hormone production. Good luck bro

[GeneralSerpant]

Losing/gaining fat is really inconsequential to training effort and muscle development unless you're protein deficient and/or starving yourself.

1: Learn to manage protein and energy intake distinctly instead of by just overall calories

2: Don't expect any schedule of muscle tissue development without any confident idea for training progress. Changing your program based on speculated concepts and workout patterns (eg: rep ranges and specific workout frequency) doesn't suffice for that.

[mojojonz]

as always, air2fakie is on the ball. I can only add that if you are lifting “for years and years”, you could easily design your own programs.

Also, this 8% BF thing, you are talking competitive performing athlete level, if true. This isn’t sustainable for long periods of time, performing athletes can only delve into this level for competition. Further to this, in and by itself low BF% drags your test level down and brings a host of other stress-related issues.

I've stuck to F5 program, as I'm not convinced that I've done everything else right, and I feel like I should at least make SOME noticable progress using the F5 intermediate program, it's kinda generic I'd say in that it has all major lifts. I could be wrong, and I need something completely different, but I wouldn't even know where to start or how to assess what different looks like.

Id bulk for even longer than you have before and try add as much muscle as possible being even considering a cut. Being 8% bf natural for extended period's of time will smoke your hormone production. Good luck bro

Noted, I'm not sure 8% is accurate, basically I go till the skin fold is about 10mm on my stomach and start bulking, so whatever that is, it's only temporary anyway. I typically have the mindset of bulk till ~15% so however long that is, is how long I go for.

Thanks all, I have some stuff to mull over.

[induced_drag]

Need to see if what you are saying has any basis in reality. Post pics of yourself at 8% bf and at 15%.

Also need stats. Ht, weight, strength on main exercises.

That can give one an idea of a persons level of training. If you say you have been doing bulk/cut for years, that is somewhat confusing. Most people will make 90% of the progress they will ever make in their lives in the first 3 years of GOOD training and diet.


Also test is not a big player in muscle gains (within normal ranges). My first 3 years back to the gym I did not know I was hypo-gonadal. Like my test was below the bottom of the scale....not just "low". I suffered a TBI and it messed up my pituitary and I ended up finding out I was hypo thyroid and hypo gonadal.

I am blessed with a good training response and having 'low t' did not stop me from putting on mass or strength.

This is where I started





I dieted down and then did bulk cut for a year and this was my first years progress. (but muscle memory can take credit for a lot of it) Yes it was natural and all with test levels below the bottom of the scale.



Post up info and I can try to give you some advice.

[RapidFail]

Your original post greatly mirrors my own experience. I'm 38yo, 6'1" and currently 79kg (174lb) at about 15-16% body fat after 4 years of consistent resistance training and good diet. I'm also pretty weak - the heaviest I've squatted to-date is 95kg and I'm yet to bench press my body weight.

The main difference between us is I've never been that lean. I reckon I've got down to 13-14% but never lower than that. I usually bulk to around 18-20%.

Never had my T checked though, but I have no other symptoms of low T.

[mojojonz]

Thanks all for the additional posts. All the discussions and thoughts are really helpful to broaden my picture of what this whole thing is about.

I'll expand some more on my history, (don't expect anyone to rad all this but here goes)

Age:39
Current Weight: 72kg, ~16%BF, cutting. Estimated Lean mass of 60kg
Currently Squatting between 80kg to 95kg on F5 Intermedaite
Bench, dumbell press <30kg per hand (crap)
RDL = ~120kg for reps and sets.

I should clarify, I DEFINATELY have SOMETHING to show for all my work, in that I have complete control over my weight, I can get trim at will. Unlike most people my age. I can get abs without any stress. I have a lot more strength then I did before lifting. and maybe have built in total say 4-5kg of muscle. For example, my younger brother is the same weight but >20%bf and looks very out of shape (sorry bro), so it's not for naught, BUT, i feel like it could all amount to much more that's all.

Full history

Started when I was 25 years old.

25years old to 33 years old. I worked out intermittently, doing a rubbish program, I hadn't even heard of calories or squats or deadlifts. Did mostly isolation exercises, and leg press one week, with some bench press. Waste of time

WHen I was 33years old I discovered teh concept of bulking for months and got very fat, and reasonable amount stronger. I got to 95kg 30% + BF . My leg press was strong but not much else. my wife told me I was fat. She was right. Decided to get lean, started a cut and learnt LOTS about tracking calories and measuring them PROPERLY. Cut to like 10%BF and 66kg ish in 8months. I realised the true about weight in that its all a number game energy in energy. Aside from HEALTH.

Here's a link to me a few years ago at what thought was may just <10%BF. This is after losing about 25-30kg.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/fw9yZgYvUxXTVwbf7

About 4-5years ago, being LEAN now, i started the F5 Novice routine, saw good strength gains over 4 months, maybe some muscle, but I believe the strength gains were just that. Basically I lost any muscle definition and looked flabby. I believe I bulked too fast. Anyway did a long cut. Lost some strength, but generally LOOKED the same as when I started

Now about 2-3 years go. Did the Novice routine to start with. Bulking more slowly. Then swapped to F5 Intermediate routine. Did this for about 6months, I will admit for the FIRST TIME, I was seeing some good lean gains. I got to about 70kg with hardly any fat gains, was really stoked! Squat was ~100kg for reps/sets, DB press ~35kg for reps and sets. A KEY thing here was that I was getting up at 4.30am 4x a week. I was tired the whole time. But managing. I then started getting up every morning at 4.30am to get more **** done, became increasingly tired and my strength started going backwards , on a bulk. Started putting on fat. At about 15-16%bf, I started a cut AGAIN, once again, back to where I started. Yes, I lose a little but of strength on my cuts, but not much. I truly believe my bulk cycles are whats lacking.

Fast forward to last year, tried putting this all into action, cut down, then slow bulked on F5 novice routine. Gains stopped pretty fast, fat started going on. only bulking at about 100cal surplus a day. This is why I believe I'm past novice gains (despite being so small). Everyone is different, and I just think the 3 day a week routine, has limited use for me, since I've already done it and stall on 2 main exercise etc.

Fast forward to this year, AGAIN, currently cutting to ~8-10%bf, I plan to EMULATE what happened as described above, which was few years ago, where the F5 Intermediate program was showing good promise, but I believe I came undone by sacrificing too much of my sleep. I DO believe I made ok progress on the F5 Novice routine initially, just nothing past that.

NOW. I'm going to limit my early starts to twice a week. I take Melatonin/L-Theanine/5-HTP for my sleep, this helps a lots. Taking multi vitamin (just in case), Mag, Zinc.

I'm not ready to blame the program, as I believe the F5 Intermediate program is well structured, and surely I can make some progress on it.

If I can satisfy myself I've done every other little thing well, then maybe the program is to blame. everyone here is saying low test, is no excuse! Noted. I believe my recovery has not been ideal thus far, so aiming to improve that, also I'm constantly quite tired, I have days where I feel awesome, but I'm seldom at good energy levels. This can't be helping, so now, im taking a multi, mag, zinc, i've ordered some TestoJack which some people swear by. Really aiming to improve my sleep. And I plan to stick on the F5 int program while do a slow bulk, even just to better my best lifts and progress I did make about 2 years ago.

Anyway thats my plan, (basically to get all the small things working), recovery is obvious a major one. But all the other things to maximise my energy and sleep. and Really try to nail my calorie surplus. I want to keep this small at least to start with.

That's my plan! keen to hear any more thoughts for anyone that's read this far. If I can get my squat to 110kg and DB press to 37.5kg this year Ill be happy

Cheers

PS. OR do I need to suck it up and do a COMPLETELY different routine maybe that has way higher volume, body weight exercise, 6 days arnie bro spit! I dunno, I simply wouldn't know where to look.

[air2fakie]

Fast forward to this year, AGAIN, currently cutting to ~8-10%bf, I plan to EMULATE what happened as described above, which was few years ago, where the F5 Intermediate program was showing good promise, but I believe I came undone by sacrificing too much of my sleep. I DO believe I made ok progress on the F5 Novice routine initially, just nothing past that.

NOW. I'm going to limit my early starts to twice a week. I take Melatonin/L-Theanine/5-HTP for my sleep, this helps a lots. Taking multi vitamin (just in case), Mag, Zinc.

I'm not ready to blame the program, as I believe the F5 Intermediate program is well structured, and surely I can make some progress on it.

If I can satisfy myself I've done every other little thing well, then maybe the program is to blame. everyone here is saying low test, is no excuse! Noted. I believe my recovery has not been ideal thus far, so aiming to improve that, also I'm constantly quite tired, I have days where I feel awesome, but I'm seldom at good energy levels. This can't be helping, so now, im taking a multi, mag, zinc, i've ordered some TestoJack which some people swear by. Really aiming to improve my sleep. And I plan to stick on the F5 int program while do a slow bulk, even just to better my best lifts and progress I did make about 2 years ago.

A long-winded way of repeating what you said you were already planning to do in the original post, and continuing to spin your wheels, but good luck!

[jtaylor2010]

Hmmm… if only there were some way to significantly raise testosterone levels…….

[RapidFail]

While I haven't really progressed any more than you, this would be my general advice:

- Cutting to 8-10% will likely exacerbate any issues involving low T. Maybe go for 12%.
- Consider trying for a larger calorie surplus. Personally I have difficulty tracking less than a 250 calorie surplus for ~1kg gained per month.
- It's possible you need a program with slower progression, perhaps one with autoregulation.

[Bando]

I'm old, 39yo have low testosterone.....I'm prepared to accept I'm never going to be big.

That's a pretty chitty attitude. I built more muscle in my 40's than I ever did in my teens, I attribute it to the wealth of knowledge and "supplements" available.

I put supplements in quotation marks not for drugs but because I'm in ID's camp where I consider Protein powders as food, not supps.

It sounds like you have a good handle at nutrition, the only thing adding TRT did for me was the ability to lose fat and recover more quickly.

As others have sort of mentioned, I would ditch your workout program, especially anything you have been running 3 years, your body is just going to adapt to the same lifts without significantly adding to your size.

I had a trainer early on who is still a competitive Bodybuilder. In our first session he said "choose one" in regards to strength or build, I think the biggest mistake most people make is not choosing one. The biggest guy I know never picks up a dumbell over 75 lbs, he doesn't barbell bench, he doesn't lift to show off in the gym, he lifts for the one goal of getting big.

https://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/p.../HeliumTwoPlus

Hope this helps.

[tkdnj]

Lots of great recommendations above... I would add another since you tried other routines without satisfactory results:

1. forget PLANNED progressive overload, and try AUTOREGULATED progression. Set a rep range (I would recommend 7-12), when you can do 12 easily, add weight, if you can't do 7, it's too heavy (all of this is with proper form)
2. Take most sets to FUNCTIONAL failure. Number 1 above is based on this. Your last rep should be the last one you can do proper form (no momentum or throwing the weight around)
3. Target 16 WEEKLY sets for large muscle groups (chest, back, shoulders, legs) and 10 WEEKLY sets for smaller muscles
4. Leverage longer rest periods (2.5-3 minutes) for compound movements; 90 seconds for isolation movements
5. Try to distribute that weekly volume where you are hitting each muscle group every 4 or 5 days (for example "PUSH / off / LEGS / PULL / off REPEAT" or remove the first "off" day. Ignore what calendar day of the week it is, no reason to base your routine on a 7 day calendar week)
6. When in a calorie deficit get AT LEAST 1 gram of protein per pound; when at maintenance or a surplus shoot for .9 grams per pound
7. Ensure dietary fat makes up 25-30% of your calories to support hormone levels

[GeneralSerpant]

A long-winded way of repeating what you said you were already planning to do in the original post, and continuing to spin your wheels, but good luck!

You wish you had that much determination.

[TolerantLactose]

Here's a link to me a few years ago at what thought was may just <10%BF. This is after losing about 25-30kg.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/fw9yZgYvUxXTVwbf7

You look 15-18% here. It's definitely not sub-10%.

[mojojonz]

Lots of great recommendations above... I would add another since you tried other routines without satisfactory results:

1. forget PLANNED progressive overload, and try AUTOREGULATED progression. Set a rep range (I would recommend 7-12), when you can do 12 easily, add weight, if you can't do 7, it's too heavy (all of this is with proper form)
2. Take most sets to FUNCTIONAL failure. Number 1 above is based on this. Your last rep should be the last one you can do proper form (no momentum or throwing the weight around)
3. Target 16 WEEKLY sets for large muscle groups (chest, back, shoulders, legs) and 10 WEEKLY sets for smaller muscles
4. Leverage longer rest periods (2.5-3 minutes) for compound movements; 90 seconds for isolation movements
5. Try to distribute that weekly volume where you are hitting each muscle group every 4 or 5 days (for example "PUSH / off / LEGS / PULL / off REPEAT" or remove the first "off" day. Ignore what calendar day of the week it is, no reason to base your routine on a 7 day calendar week)
6. When in a calorie deficit get AT LEAST 1 gram of protein per pound; when at maintenance or a surplus shoot for .9 grams per pound
7. Ensure dietary fat makes up 25-30% of your calories to support hormone levels

'

Thanks for the detail breakdown. I just have some questions to help my understanding
1. Does this mean though I'll be lifting to failure on all sets every session? I keep reading that that's not ideal?
2. Noted
3. Noted, i believe the F5 U/L considers this already, notwithholding, I'm being recommended here to change my program
4. Do this already
5. Currently do U/L/rest/U/L/rest/test, as per F5 U/L so I believe I'm ticking this box
6. Noted, this area I will admit could easily use some improvement (when cutting)
7. Noted.

[tkdnj]

'

Thanks for the detail breakdown. I just have some questions to help my understanding
1. Does this mean though I'll be lifting to failure on all sets every session? I keep reading that that's not ideal?
2. Noted
3. Noted, i believe the F5 U/L considers this already, notwithholding, I'm being recommended here to change my program
4. Do this already
5. Currently do U/L/rest/U/L/rest/test, as per F5 U/L so I believe I'm ticking this box
6. Noted, this area I will admit could easily use some improvement (when cutting)
7. Noted.

1.first couple of sets of an exercise you can leave a rep in the tank; last one or two sets go to functional failure (meaning when you can't do another rep with proper form). This is ok because the volume I recommended (16 WEEKLY sets for large muscle groups (chest, back, shoulders, legs) and 10 WEEKLY sets for smaller muscles) is moderate volume
6. It is very critical

Good luck! Keep us posted