Fully body routines aren't necessarily for novice only?

[Animal2692]

Recently switched from an U/L split 4x a week to full body 3x a week. On paper all you need is sufficient stimulus and recovery. Advanced trainees need more volume and if they can't handle full body 3x a week as a result of fatigue in a workout, they can switch over to full body 5x a week for better volume spread which is already close to a PPL split done 2x a week with 6 workouts vs. 5 except that the higher frequency from full body 5x may be better since MPS doesn't last as long for them. IIRC, Eric Helms has been doing a full body split 5x a week where Jeff Nippard also ended up tagging along. I guess this thread is more about novice vs. intermediate vs. advanced routines. All I really see is sower progression and higher volumes as you get advanced, that's it. It's not like advanced trainees magically require new exercises or reps ranges, the muscle building process still has to remain the same to a great extent. Novice routines to me are more about learning the lifts and pushing closer to failure and then the difference between intermediate and advanced is mostly volume.

Thoughts, nuances?

[leidenesLK]

Do whatever split you enjoy that allows you to get your weekly volume requirements in while keeping 2x/wk or more frequency. Any further consideration on a split is analysis paralysis.

[paulinkansas]

It's my humble opinion that you are thinking too much about working out. There is nothing wrong with that, unless you are neglecting other things in your life that need attention.

[leidenesLK]

It's my humble opinion that you are thinking too much about working out. There is nothing wrong with that, unless you are neglecting other things in your life that need attention.

This. Don’t waste time seeking the most optimal training. There are too many variables and will just result in time and mind loss. I can guarantee everybody on here is currently training with something that isn’t the single-best program for them... Or maybe it is. They’ll never know. There’s not enough hours in our life to try everything. Experimenting is good, but not when it impedes progress because you waste time fine tuning every detail. As long as you’re following proven guidelines, and aren’t doing something completely asinine, you’ll be good. 80/20 rule, rules all... Enjoy the process.

[SuffolkPunch]

This. Don’t waste time seeking the most optimal training. There are too many variables and will just result in time and mind loss.

^ Yep

This is true of many things. Studying AI confirms this to be true. Complex messy problems NEVER have single perfect solutions. An heuristic solution based on trial and error IS the best.

Yes you can do full body training at any level IMO.

[health4life24]

If you are just interested in discussing different things for the sake of having a discussion nothing wrong with that.

But if you are reading a new study or something every week and constantly altering your training to try and find the most science backed optimal method, you may end up just spinning your wheels because you’re not sticking with something long enough.

It’s not just about studies. It’s about learning what actually works for you by trying things out for a period of time and evaluating your results. The results of a study don’t necessarily apply to everyone, not everyone is gonna get the same results.

[Heisman2]

I'm somewhere in the intermediate/advanced range and I do full body 4x/wk currently and am getting good results.

OP, as indicated above you need to pick something and stick with it. When you change things too quickly you don't allow the full extent of neural adaptations to kick in and you run the risk of experiencing exercise-induced muscle damage too regularly, both of which will limit your ability to actually experience skeletal muscle hypertrophy and long term progress.

[Animal2692]

This. Don’t waste time seeking the most optimal training. There are too many variables and will just result in time and mind loss. I can guarantee everybody on here is currently training with something that isn’t the single-best program for them... Or maybe it is. They’ll never know. There’s not enough hours in our life to try everything. Experimenting is good, but not when it impedes progress because you waste time fine tuning every detail. As long as you’re following proven guidelines, and aren’t doing something completely asinine, you’ll be good. 80/20 rule, rules all... Enjoy the process.

I got you. I only switched to a full body split based on recommendations from a previous thread where it wouldn't be worth going to the gym to do only 2 exercises on upper day. I do see a stereotype from many people thinking full body is for novices only. "Oh you do full body? You must be a beginner then" type of thing

[Animal2692]

If you are just interested in discussing different things for the sake of having a discussion nothing wrong with that.

But if you are reading a new study or something every week and constantly altering your training to try and find the most science backed optimal method, you may end up just spinning your wheels because you’re not sticking with something long enough.

It’s not just about studies. It’s about learning what actually works for you by trying things out for a period of time and evaluating your results. The results of a study don’t necessarily apply to everyone, not everyone is gonna get the same results.

I only switched to a full body split since many people were saying it would be better in a previous thread when I recently got a gym membership. I did an U/L split for quite a while with weighted calisthenics and my gym workout was only going to have 2 exercises on upper day which would be kind of a waste of time to go to the gym just for that. In retrospect I just see a lot of people assuming full body splits are for novices only which does make any sense imo.

[air2fakie]

I got you. I only switched to a full body split based on recommendations from a previous thread where it wouldn't be worth going to the gym to do only 2 exercises on upper day. I do see a stereotype from many people thinking full body is for novices only. "Oh you do full body? You must be a beginner then" type of thing

Have many people said this to you in the week since you've joined a gym and started doing a fb program? Or did you just make up what "everyone" thinks again so you can attempt to de-bunk it in favor of how you've decided to train at the moment? :P

[health4life24]

I only switched to a full body split since many people were saying it would be better in a previous thread when I recently got a gym membership. I did an U/L split for quite a while with weighted calisthenics and my gym workout was only going to have 2 exercises on upper day which would be kind of a waste of time to go to the gym just for that. In retrospect I just see a lot of people assuming full body splits are for novices only which does make any sense imo.

Something to keep in mind is that what works for someone may not necessarily produce the same results for someone else.

I don’t like to think of any one thing as being better than the other in a general sense, more so that something might work better for one person but might not necessarily be right for another, etc.

[BeginnerGainz]

Do what you prefer. Putting this much thought into it is just gonna result in a smoother brain.

[Animal2692]

Have many people said this to you in the week since you've joined a gym and started doing a fb program? Or did you just make up what "everyone" thinks again so you can attempt to de-bunk it in favor of how you've decided to train at the moment? :P

No but in the past I'd hear it a lot and I'd always think it was nonsense. Back when stronglifts was really popular.

[Animal2692]

Do what you prefer. Putting this much thought into it is just gonna result in a smoother brain.

I think a lot about things because I have this desire to help coach others (friends, strangers, etc.) I've always been the type to ask why and how something works. I think when people start out lifting, you have the types who primarily focus on lifting too much and those who primarily focus on thinking too much and over time both have to find balance. I started out with thinking too much so I never got those initial results as those who started out just lifting without thinking. In hindsight I'm kind of glad it was that way for me because there's those out there who never bothered to really do any research and still think 8-12 reps is hypertrophy only for example

[MyEgoProblem]

We could do the studies thing.. Which does support full body as at least as viable, possibly superior.

We could also go the anecdote route too.
Helms
Nippart
Isreatel
Nuckols
All having excellent data and experience..

Could also site many from the powerlifting world (including coaches who run elite to reg people)
Reactive training
Barbell medicine
Joey flexx
Chad smith
Helms again.

My thoughts specially... Do it all 2+ times a week as it fits your "split" .
And spread your quality work over it. If that means 3+ fb, 2/3 upper/lower, 3/3 push/pull or 2 push/pull/legs or a combo

James Kreiger has some pretty legit guide lines, 8-12 sets. 2 sessions. 12+ in 3 or more.

My preference has always being full body, my current coach too. With an 800+ total and 230kg bench in ipf and is hench.
I'm running a dup 3x setup, it's ****ing hard rn in this phase. 10 sets of bench variations over @9 and some heavy singles and supra max overload work. Before I get to my supp work to bring my shoulders up and back work ... (can't give details post that cos its payed for content)

I can say for my self, my Mrs, friends clients and people I've helped/done favours for they all do better on well structured full body training... Some prefer to do u/l as its easier and one prefers a bro split and has stalled for 4 years on it.

https://youtu.be/dEwXwTWAcrw

This might be worth a watch too from Dr Mike.

While I don't ascribe to his weekly volume and intensity ramps as been even remotely necessary, they work and make him money. But his info is top flight.

[Animal2692]

We could do the studies thing.. Which does support full body as at least as viable, possibly superior.

We could also go the anecdote route too.
Helms
Nippart
Isreatel
Nuckols
All having excellent data and experience..

Could also site many from the powerlifting world (including coaches who run elite to reg people)
Reactive training
Barbell medicine
Joey flexx
Chad smith
Helms again.

My thoughts specially... Do it all 2+ times a week as it fits your "split" .
And spread your quality work over it. If that means 3+ fb, 2/3 upper/lower, 3/3 push/pull or 2 push/pull/legs or a combo

James Kreiger has some pretty legit guide lines, 8-12 sets. 2 sessions. 12+ in 3 or more.

My preference has always being full body, my current coach too. With an 800+ total and 230kg bench in ipf and is hench.
I'm running a dup 3x setup, it's ****ing hard rn in this phase. 10 sets of bench variations over @9 and some heavy singles and supra max overload work. Before I get to my supp work to bring my shoulders up and back work ... (can't give details post that cos its payed for content)

I can say for my self, my Mrs, friends clients and people I've helped/done favours for they all do better on well structured full body training... Some prefer to do u/l as its easier and one prefers a bro split and has stalled for 4 years on it.

https://youtu.be/dEwXwTWAcrw

This might be worth a watch too from Dr Mike.

While I don't ascribe to his weekly volume and intensity ramps as been even remotely necessary, they work and make him money. But his info is top flight.

I watched that video a few weeks ago, it was pretty insightful. I can never understand his intensity/volume ramping either. Whatever happened to stronglifts/starting strength by the way? I remember yearssss ago when it was stickied on here.

[MyEgoProblem]

I watched that video a few weeks ago, it was pretty insightful. I can never understand his intensity/volume ramping either. Whatever happened to stronglifts/starting strength by the way? I remember yearssss ago when it was stickied on here.

What happened?
People got wise to it and realised that a) that's not how progressive overload works and that b) noob LP and grinding your self to dust with 3 lifts is counter productive..

Lack of variationof groove, lack of rounded rep ranges, no work capacity building and Zero
Work to prepare you for the next stage of your training.

Plus. Let's be honest. The level of info and smarts around here, even years ago.. Not exactly known for being at the top of the class.

But Training trends seems to be cyclic.. People go from super minimal, to ultra high vol, to Bulgarian to conjugate, to hit top gvt in waves... One is usually popular and the rest comes back for a bit.

Its weird how the bro cycle of trends works lol. No real rhyme or reason past one famous person starts and sheep follow.

People still do ss tho. Rippetoe zealots.
But even his own coaches and people leave once they realise.
Jp who started Greyskull
The doctors from barbell medicine
The lads from barbell logic (formerly ss online)
All got wise and distanced them selves from the flawed system and rhetoric.

But as for sl? I guess people who want a slick app (it's very good tbh) but I don't really see/hear about it

[Animal2692]

What happened?
People got wise to it and realised that a) that's not how progressive overload works and that b) noob LP and grinding your self to dust with 3 lifts is counter productive..

Lack of variationof groove, lack of rounded rep ranges, no work capacity building and Zero
Work to prepare you for the next stage of your training.

But Training trends seems to be cyclic.. People go from super minimal, to ultra high vol, to Bulgarian to conjugate, to hit top gvt in waves... One is usually popular and the rest comes back for a bit.

Its weird how the bro cycle of trends works lol. No real rhyme or reason past one famous person starts and sheep follow.

People still do ss tho. Rippetoe zealots.even his own coaches and people leave once they realise.
Jp who started Greyskull
The doctors from barbell medicine
The lads from barbell logic (formerly ss online)
All got wise and distanced them selves from the flawed system and rhetoric.

But as for sl? I guess people who want a slick app (it's very good tbh) but I don't really see/hear about it

While everything you're saying is true, I believe starting strength also emerged more as a revolution against doing bro splits with volumes done by enhanced lifters in magazines that no natural could really grow on effectively. I remember when I tried out Arnold's encyclopedia of bodybuilding lol which was so weird because the man already had a strong base from a powerlifting background before anything. Even though the progressive overload on it is not how it works like you said, it at least put people in that mindset of "I need to be stronger than last time."

[MyEgoProblem]

While everything you're saying is true, I believe starting strength also emerged more as a revolution against doing bro splits with volumes done by enhanced lifters in magazines that no natural could really grow on effectively. I remember when I tried out Arnold's encyclopedia of bodybuilding lol which was so weird because the man already had a strong base from a powerlifting background before anything. Even though the progressive overload on it is not how it works like you said, it at least put people in that mindset of "I need to be stronger than last time."

I'm not sure for most people needing to
Be stronger
Do more
Increase this
Incase that
Ect
Every time is even appropriate.. Past their their first few weeks of tech learning with super sub max weights.

I will agree it makes you work arbitrarily hard if you are a lazy bum. Deffo. But by the point of finding your self grinding squats every day you should be done with it and moving on..

People have this really skewed view that adding 5lbs every session is somehow beneficial once you have learned the form and are using loads that aren't just the bar any more. It needs to be honest effort and honest organic progression to your loads. Not arbitrary time and weight to the max. Rip and douchette et all have a big part it spreading this bad info as gospel for all

This is all caveated by doing it on your own or with the Internet for help. If you have a decent lifting buddy with a clue (good luck finding) or a real coach... They should be teaching and managing your loading for you. Maybe I'm just too nice and come from a great start in lifting to expect people to share xD

Obviously.. There are times to grind and times to really push. It's beneficial to know your limits. But not rips way..
I'm pushing my dik off right now, 0-1rir, a few bro spot reps, but this sure isn't the majority of my training!

All Imo from exp, data and anecdote. But anything works.. It's just on a spectrum and how likely you are to stall or snap up.

[Animal2692]

I'm not sure for most people needing to
Be stronger
Do more
Increase this
Incase that
Ect
Every time is even appropriate.. Past their their first few weeks of tech learning with super sub max weights.

I will agree it makes you work arbitrarily hard if you are a lazy bum. Deffo. But by the point of finding your self grinding squats every day you should be done with it and moving on..

People have this really skewed view that adding 5lbs every session is somehow beneficial once you have learned the form and are using loads that aren't just the bar any more. It needs to be honest effort and honest organic progression to your loads. Not arbitrary time and weight to the max. Rip and douchette et all have a big part it spreading this bad info as gospel for all

This is all caveated by doing it on your own or with the Internet for help. If you have a decent lifting buddy with a clue (good luck finding) or a real coach... They should be teaching and managing your loading for you. Maybe I'm just too nice and come from a great start in lifting to expect people to share xD

Obviously.. There are times to grind and times to really push. It's beneficial to know your limits. But not rips way..
I'm pushing my dik off right now, 0-1rir, a few bro spot reps, but this sure isn't the majority of my training!

All Imo from exp, data and anecdote. But anything works.. It's just on a spectrum and how likely you are to stall or snap up.

Yeah progression should be organic as a result of sufficient stimulus. Putting progression first is like putting the cart before the horse. I remember when I used to do that, my form started to break down on all my lifts "because it's time to add weight since x amount of time has passed".

About the whole muscle confusion/introducing a new stimulus thing...isn't doing an extra rep or adding 5lbs already a new stimulus? I heard it in the locker room the other day lol. I find it nonsensical to have to switch up an exercise to "shock the muscles". Low RIR is already shocking the muscles. I think there's too much talk about shocking the muscles because too many people aren't training hard enough. Constantly switching it up leads to more exercise induced muscle damage like someone else already mentioned here

[safcpaul]

[QUOTE=Animal2692;1631449993

About the whole muscle confusion/introducing a new stimulus thing...isn't doing an extra rep or adding 5lbs already a new stimulus? [/QUOTE]

You strike me as a person that is always confusing his gluteus maximus

[Animal2692]

You strike me as a person that is always confusing his gluteus maximus

Oh I really am after going to barbell squats from pistols lol

[Oliy1876]

so I no this is an odd question im not exactly a new lifter i kind of like making my own routines so I started this routine were were I do my 1 squats / 2 flat press /3 db row /4 shoulder press /5 curls/ I like reverse pyramid training were I go 5/6/8/10/12 is this any good I might ad a A/B work out were the b work out is front squats or split squats / weighted decline push ups/db shoulder press/chin ups /hammer curls I feel like the one on the top is working if so let me no if its a bad routine its 3 times a week lol I also like ppl flat press /reverse flat press /shoulder press /latrail raise/ triceps curls / pull day/ chin ups /db rows bent over Flys / curls/ leg day squats /rdl/split squat /clafs raises my goal is vtaper lots of shoulders and back and losing weight at the same time im managing to eat at least 190 pounds of protine so far my equipment is a squat rack a barbell Olympic dumbbells a rough flat bench and a chin up bar is this enough for body Buliding and why the hell do you guys change.your exercise in upper lower splits like why put shoulder press on one day and bench on another it makes absolutely no senes to me