Half squatting...is it worth it?

[munichveteran]

Sorry to drag up an age-old question, but my orthopedic surgeon has advised against squatting “anywhere near parallel”, due to the cam impingement/labral tear situation going on.

To be clear, he feels I can squat safely, as long as I stay a couple of inches above parallel.

My dilemma is, do I take the route of half-squats? Or am I better to give up on squats and focus my time on a safer alternative like leg press? Anything else?

I’ll be going to see a sports therapist, but I was hoping to go armed with some ideas, and hopefully even try out a couple of alternatives before I go.

Would appreciate any thoughts or advice.

Thanks!

[mtownballer20]

Is this something that will get fixed? If its just for now, I'd say leg press/hack squat with depth until you are able to fully squat.

[munichveteran]

Is this something that will get fixed? If its just for now, I'd say leg press/hack squat with depth until you are able to fully squat.

The only fix is surgery, and the time out required for basic recovery is extensive, way more than my life can allow for right now. In other words, I'll be putting this off for as many years as I can, but eventually will require surgery. In the meantime, I'll just have to work around it.

[mtownballer20]

The only fix is surgery, and the time out required for basic recovery is extensive, way more than my life can allow for right now. In other words, I'll be putting this off for as many years as I can, but eventually will require surgery. In the meantime, I'll just have to work around it.

If you don't mind me asking, how long would you be out? Would you be able to do partial body work?

I went through 2 knee surgeries. The recent one, I couldn't touch my leg to the ground for the first 4 weeks. My leg shrank to smaller than my forearm. But after months of painful PT, and a year plus of grinding safely. I'm back and getting stronger than ever.

[munichveteran]

If you don't mind me asking, how long would you be out? Would you be able to do partial body work?

I went through 2 knee surgeries. The recent one, I couldn't touch my leg to the ground for the first 4 weeks. My leg shrank to smaller than my forearm. But after months of painful PT, and a year plus of grinding safely. I'm back and getting stronger than ever.

It's potentially 6 months non-weight bearing. Best case is 4 months. That's just not feasible for someone in my situation. It sucks, but it is what it is, so I need to figure out the best way to work around it.

[Get-n-fit]

The only fix is surgery, and the time out required for basic recovery is extensive, way more than my life can allow for right now. In other words, I'll be putting this off for as many years as I can, but eventually will require surgery. In the meantime, I'll just have to work around it.

Why put it off? just get it over with. The sooner you get through it and on with recovery, the sooner you'll be able to do real squats.

[TrettinR]

Why put it off? just get it over with. The sooner you get through it and on with recovery, the sooner you'll be able to do real squats.

This^^^^^^


BUT, if I absolutely couldn't squat to depth due to an injury I would replace regular squats with Box squats a little above parallel. That way you are ensuring you get maximum depth without running a big risk of additional injury. I'd advise doing an actual box squat and not just using the box for depth. This video has a decent explanation of how to do an actual box squat.

[jonmd123]

Sorry to drag up an age-old question, but my orthopedic surgeon has advised against squatting “anywhere near parallel”, due to the cam impingement/labral tear situation going on.

To be clear, he feels I can squat safely, as long as I stay a couple of inches above parallel.

My dilemma is, do I take the route of half-squats? Or am I better to give up on squats and focus my time on a safer alternative like leg press? Anything else?

I’ll be going to see a sports therapist, but I was hoping to go armed with some ideas, and hopefully even try out a couple of alternatives before I go.

Would appreciate any thoughts or advice.

Thanks!

I wouldn't get the surgery unless it's affecting your day-to-day life. You can work around it with front/goblet squats and deadlifts - both require less hip flexion.

[munichveteran]

This^^^^^^

The potential 6 month non-weight bearing recovery makes this a non-starter unfortunately. It's impossible. Thanks for the vid, I'll check that out.

[mtownballer20]

Why put it off? just get it over with. The sooner you get through it and on with recovery, the sooner you'll be able to do real squats.

This.

Why is not feasible? Its only going to get worse, and if its necessary better to get it done with.

[srwood98]

It's potentially 6 months non-weight bearing. Best case is 4 months. That's just not feasible for someone in my situation. It sucks, but it is what it is, so I need to figure out the best way to work around it.

That is not that long in the grand scheme of things it would be better to go that route then to have potential issues in not doing so. I wont dig into your personal situation as I know everyone has different circumstances.

So as for working around it I agree with leg press and leg extensions could be good for isolation work. Maybe split squats too. Goes without saying to not do anything your pt says may cause an irritation.

[munichveteran]

I wouldn't get the surgery unless it's affecting your day-to-day life. You can work around it with front/goblet squats and deadlifts - both require less hip flexion.

Now you're talking. Definitely doesn't affect my day to day life. All it seems to affect is my ability to do a proper squat, which compared to my ability to pay my mortgage for 6 months, or look after my 3 young kids, squatting doesn’t seem THAT important.

I’m just a former fatty trying to get in better shape than I was a few years ago, therefore, I’d like to find a work-around that I can focus on for life, and progress with.

Can you help me understand why goblet squats and front squats might be an alternative? Why don’t they impact the hip so much? I tried Zercher squats for a week or so, and these did not feel great. I’m going to try adjusting my stance a little to see if that helps, but curious about the benefits of goblet squats in this scenario.

Thanks!

[TrettinR]

The potential 6 month non-weight bearing recovery makes this a non-starter unfortunately. It's impossible. Thanks for the vid, I'll check that out.

Would you not be able to work if you got the surgery? Obviously that's a major consideration if that's the case. My main concern would be for future issues, from what I could find the main concern is "A hip labral tear may predispose you to develop osteoarthritis in that joint in the future". But obviously the medical side of the conversation is best to have with your surgeon/PT.

I enjoy regular squats more, but box squats can be pretty fun and effective so that might be a good route. Best of luck!

[davik]

dont do half squats. theyll kill your knees in the long run and leave stuff out. do a safe squat variation like box squat or even a leg press. maybe try deadlifts out in addition to these

[jonmd123]

Now you're talking. Definitely doesn't affect my day to day life. All it seems to affect is my ability to do a proper squat, which compared to my ability to pay my mortgage for 6 months, or look after my 3 young kids, squatting doesn’t seem THAT important.

I’m just a former fatty trying to get in better shape than I was a few years ago, therefore, I’d like to find a work-around that I can focus on for life, and progress with.

Can you help me understand why goblet squats and front squats might be an alternative? Why don’t they impact the hip so much? I tried Zercher squats for a week or so, and these did not feel great. I’m going to try adjusting my stance a little to see if that helps, but curious about the benefits of goblet squats in this scenario.

Thanks!

Goblet squats keep your torso upright and engage your core more, which prevents your hips from rolling anteriorly. It essentially gives you a few extra degrees of range of motion in your hips before they become impinged.

[Get-n-fit]

Would you not be able to work if you got the surgery? Obviously that's a major consideration if that's the case. My main concern would be for future issues, from what I could find the main concern is "A hip labral tear may predispose you to develop osteoarthritis in that joint in the future". But obviously the medical side of the conversation is best to have with your surgeon/PT.

I enjoy regular squats more, but box squats can be pretty fun and effective so that might be a good route. Best of luck!

This, obviously, if it's going to put you out of work for 6 months then that's not an option. As Trettin said, it's only going to get worse, you're 36 now, if you put this off until your late 40's-50's recovery is going to be horrible. I take it your job wouldn't be able to work with you during recovery, maybe giving you a desk job or something along those lines.

If they won't work with you, then just follow your Dr's recommendations. He's more qualified to give advice than any of us.

[aresman1221]

Someone above said it would be bad for your knees, do you have scientific evidence? I wouldnt believe so.

I see people half squatting all the time, I think you could do it if you wanted to but...... there are more efficient things that you can do as already mentioned. I would try those instead.

[mike33511]

Someone above said it would be bad for your knees, do you have scientific evidence? I wouldnt believe so.

I see people half squatting all the time, I think you could do it if you wanted to but...... there are more efficient things that you can do as already mentioned. I would try those instead.

Scientific evidence is not necessary. Squatting below parallel is a knee neutral movement. In an above parallel squat, the force of your weight is directed towards your knee. It has nowhere else to go. Once below parallel, this force reverses directions to go towards the hips.

Look at a picture of a half squat and a below parallel squat from the side, and this can be easily observed.

[magician27]

do what your doc says but imo half squats destroys knees

[davisj3537]

I just had this surgery (multiple labral repairs and FAI debridement) and have studied this intensely so I'm gonna try to clear up a few things. Forgive me for this wall of text, but this isn't an easy fix so I want to be thorough.



1. I don't know why in the world he mentioned 4-6 MONTHS of non weight bearing. I was walking in 4 weeks without crutches. At 2.5 weeks I was walking with 1 crutch. Recovery isn't bad at all. I could have been off all my pain meds day 3, but stayed on them a bit longer to make sure to stay ahead of the pain. The hip heals MUCH faster than most other joints in the body. Did he happen to mention doing a microfracture?

2. I as well advise avoiding surgery until it affects daily life. The only reason I say that is you may be able to avoid surgery altogether if you fix the root issues that I'm about to discuss. IF you aren't able to fix it and it gets really bad you won't be able to sit anymore and at that point you have no choice.



How to work around it

A. Other squat variants will be helpful like some of the guys already mentioned. Ex: doing front squats to parallel will have a much smaller degree of hip flexion than a low bar squat to parallel...maybe enough to avoid the bone on bone contact that has caused all your issues. This is just from my experience, but I'd be cautious of deadlifts, particularly variants with high degrees of flexion like a RDL or SLDL. If deadlifts begin to bother you then it gets much more difficult to work around your injury and still lift.

B. Femoral acetabular impingement is most common with an anteriorly rotated pelvis which limits internal rotation. Blah blah blah...take a wider squat stance and point your toes out. That may help to align your femur with what is currently a more neutral position for your acetabular...aka you might miss the spot you've been hitting/aggravating all this time. You'd have to look at a hip to see, but as your leg moves to a wider stance you have more room to move upward before hitting the acetabular.


How to correct the issue

A. Specific stretching and mobility is helpful in repositioning the femoral head in the hip socket so that it no longer makes contact with the hip when going into flexion. The goal is to "free up" space in the back of the socket so the femoral head will be too deep in the socket to make contact with the hip anymore. Here is a good video by our very own Mike Wines on the subject.


B. Probably most importantly is posture. This is what caused all your issues to begin with most likely. I'd love to say you can go see any physical therapist and they'll fix you up, but that simply isn't the case. Most of them don't see the big picture and try to ONLY treat the hip. If your head, shoulders, rib cage, spine, knees, ankles...etc were all "in line", then you probably wouldn't have a hip problem. Everything is related and you need a multi faceted approach to fix this long term. Check out www.posturalrestoration.com and you'll be able to search for a provider if one is local to you. If there isn't one then you'll need to try and vet your own local PT.

[MyEgoProblem]

Listen to Davis...

If you need to stay in a safe range of movement, and going any lower can/will wreck you hip.. Box squat may the way to go for a leg exercise. But they are posterior chain dominant and don't hit much quads.

Maybe pin squats with wide stance, upright torso high bar or fronts (pins set just around your limit)if you have good kinesthetic awareness or the box feels 'off' to you. Plus it breaks up the concentric/eccentric chain meaning you dont have the shear force on your knees from reversing the weight without loading you glutes and hams fully like you get at below parallel.

^ the reason half and quarter squats are classified as "bad" for your knees. But half /qtr squatting to pins.. A totally different animal!

[Jay131990]

The only fix is surgery, and the time out required for basic recovery is extensive, way more than my life can allow for right now. In other words, I'll be putting this off for as many years as I can, but eventually will require surgery. In the meantime, I'll just have to work around it.

If you're wanting to put it off for as long as possible, then half squats, or "mini squats" would be the safest bet and your proper course of action. The closer you go to full ROM, the more expedient the need for surgical repair becomes in your instance.

[munichveteran]

I just had this surgery (multiple labral repairs and FAI debridement) and have studied this intensely so I'm gonna try to clear up a few things. Forgive me for this wall of text, but this isn't an easy fix so I want to be thorough.



1. I don't know why in the world he mentioned 4-6 MONTHS of non weight bearing. I was walking in 4 weeks without crutches. At 2.5 weeks I was walking with 1 crutch. Recovery isn't bad at all. I could have been off all my pain meds day 3, but stayed on them a bit longer to make sure to stay ahead of the pain. The hip heals MUCH faster than most other joints in the body. Did he happen to mention doing a microfracture?

2. I as well advise avoiding surgery until it affects daily life. The only reason I say that is you may be able to avoid surgery altogether if you fix the root issues that I'm about to discuss. IF you aren't able to fix it and it gets really bad you won't be able to sit anymore and at that point you have no choice.



How to work around it

A. Other squat variants will be helpful like some of the guys already mentioned. Ex: doing front squats to parallel will have a much smaller degree of hip flexion than a low bar squat to parallel...maybe enough to avoid the bone on bone contact that has caused all your issues. This is just from my experience, but I'd be cautious of deadlifts, particularly variants with high degrees of flexion like a RDL or SLDL. If deadlifts begin to bother you then it gets much more difficult to work around your injury and still lift.

B. Femoral acetabular impingement is most common with an anteriorly rotated pelvis which limits internal rotation. Blah blah blah...take a wider squat stance and point your toes out. That may help to align your femur with what is currently a more neutral position for your acetabular...aka you might miss the spot you've been hitting/aggravating all this time. You'd have to look at a hip to see, but as your leg moves to a wider stance you have more room to move upward before hitting the acetabular.


How to correct the issue

A. Specific stretching and mobility is helpful in repositioning the femoral head in the hip socket so that it no longer makes contact with the hip when going into flexion. The goal is to "free up" space in the back of the socket so the femoral head will be too deep in the socket to make contact with the hip anymore. Here is a good video by our very own Mike Wines on the subject.


B. Probably most importantly is posture. This is what caused all your issues to begin with most likely. I'd love to say you can go see any physical therapist and they'll fix you up, but that simply isn't the case. Most of them don't see the big picture and try to ONLY treat the hip. If your head, shoulders, rib cage, spine, knees, ankles...etc were all "in line", then you probably wouldn't have a hip problem. Everything is related and you need a multi faceted approach to fix this long term. Check out www.posturalrestoration.com and you'll be able to search for a provider if one is local to you. If there isn't one then you'll need to try and vet your own local PT.

Davis to the rescue! Awesome response. Thanks.

Did you have arthroscopic surgery? Or open? He believes open surgery would be necessary, and would include complete hip dislocation. He described it as major, but therefore more likely to succeed than a scope. He's on the US Olympic medical team, so his credentials add up.

I'm going to come back to your post when I have more time to digest, but something I hadn't considered as a potential issue is the RDL I started doing recently. I progressed from leg curls and leg press (no pain) to RDL and squats about two months ago, and the pain crept back in at that time. I blamed the squats...perhaps it's a combination. Damn it.

[davisj3537]

Davis to the rescue! Awesome response. Thanks.

Did you have arthroscopic surgery? Or open? He believes open surgery would be necessary, and would include complete hip dislocation. He described it as major, but therefore more likely to succeed than a scope. He's on the US Olympic medical team, so his credentials add up.

I'm going to come back to your post when I have more time to digest, but something I hadn't considered as a potential issue is the RDL I started doing recently. I progressed from leg curls and leg press (no pain) to RDL and squats about two months ago, and the pain crept back in at that time. I blamed the squats...perhaps it's a combination. Damn it.

I had a scope. Every injury is different, but I'm under the impression that all the FAI repairs done at my wife's hospital chain are done via scope. Edit: It is one of the most distinguished medical organizations in the country FWIW. Again, I had multiple labral repairs and a cam impingement debridement which it sounds like exactly what you may need.

Any exercise with lots of hip flexion may be an issue. ATG squats, low bar squats, RDL, SLDL, pendlays, back extensions. I had a pretty tough time trying to avoid those exercises. Front squats, hip thrusts and leg curls were the basis of my leg routine. I also couldn't do normal DL, leg press...etc.

[munichveteran]

I had a scope. Every injury is different, but I'm under the impression that all the FAI repairs done at my wife's hospital chain are done via scope. Edit: It is one of the most distinguished medical organizations in the country FWIW. Again, I had multiple labral repairs and a cam impingement debridement which it sounds like exactly what you may need.

Any exercise with lots of hip flexion may be an issue. ATG squats, low bar squats, RDL, SLDL, pendlays, back extensions. I had a pretty tough time trying to avoid those exercises. Front squats, hip thrusts and leg curls were the basis of my leg routine. I also couldn't do normal DL, leg press...etc.

Thanks again Davis...a few more comments/questions:

1) Do you have any thoughts on zercher squats? I'm still "testing" these to see if they give me a problem...unsure as yet, but feels better than back squat so far.

2) My ROM on my RDL is limited by my insanely tight hamstrings. I barely get an inch or two past my knees. If I look at the degree of hip flexion with my own version of the RDL, I THINK this is a safe exercise for me. Do you agree? Or do you recommend laying off the RDL for a couple of months?

3) Wide stance on the squat – how wide are we talking? Just outside the shoulders? Wider?

4) I completely agree there's a postural issue. I’ve had that problem for 20 years, but unfortunately I’m only now doing something about it. I checked out my local area, and I have nothing within 30 miles. It might be worth a trip to the city though.

[davisj3537]

Thanks again Davis...a few more comments/questions:

1) Do you have any thoughts on zercher squats? I'm still "testing" these to see if they give me a problem...unsure as yet, but feels better than back squat so far.

2) My ROM on my RDL is limited by my insanely tight hamstrings. I barely get an inch or two past my knees. If I look at the degree of hip flexion with my own version of the RDL, I THINK this is a safe exercise for me. Do you agree? Or do you recommend laying off the RDL for a couple of months?

3) Wide stance on the squat – how wide are we talking? Just outside the shoulders? Wider?

4) I completely agree there's a postural issue. I’ve had that problem for 20 years, but unfortunately I’m only now doing something about it. I checked out my local area, and I have nothing within 30 miles. It might be worth a trip to the city though.

1. Well since the bar is generally farther forward at depth than a front squat you'd think you'd have less hip flexion. This is about as extreme (in terms of avoiding this injury) as you can go in terms of squats. If you can high bar to parallel then there is no point in going to extremes to avoid flexion. Something you have to test with video to see what your butt is doing. In general I'd avoid ever going ATG with any squat until the issue is resolved and you know what to look for.

2. It's probably limited because your pelvis is tiled so far forward the stretches the hamstrings before the lift even begins. Need video to confirm if your pelvis is pretilted AND need video to see if it is a safe exercise for you.

3. As wide as it takes to squat without making contact. Might be just outside the shoulders, might be westside wide. Depends on your hip position...can't say for sure without examining you in person....which should be done by a professional (not me.) If there was an easy video to link I would, but the only people I've seen explaining this kind of stuff only provide the info pay per view. Again need video of you squatting to see if it's ok or not.

4. One trip a week for 3-6 months might get you all fixed up. It took you decades to engrain this posture...it isn't gonna get fixed overnight. I've been going 4 months and my hips are still in a bad position, but I could be more diligent with my at home exercises and my "patterns" are very resistant to change from all the years of lifting.


Disclaimer: When I mention I need to see a video to gauge if an exercise is "safe" or not is an educated guess. You (and a professional) are the only ones that will truly know. That's why learning the ins and outs of this will vastly help you. When you can look at your own videos and know what to change you'll be headed in the right direction.


Also need all videos from the side so I can see what your lower back is doing.

[munichveteran]

1. Well since the bar is generally farther forward at depth than a front squat you'd think you'd have less hip flexion. This is about as extreme (in terms of avoiding this injury) as you can go in terms of squats. If you can high bar to parallel then there is no point in going to extremes to avoid flexion. Something you have to test with video to see what your butt is doing. In general I'd avoid ever going ATG with any squat until the issue is resolved and you know what to look for.

2. It's probably limited because your pelvis is tiled so far forward the stretches the hamstrings before the lift even begins. Need video to confirm if your pelvis is pretilted AND need video to see if it is a safe exercise for you.

3. As wide as it takes to squat without making contact. Might be just outside the shoulders, might be westside wide. Depends on your hip position...can't say for sure without examining you in person....which should be done by a professional (not me.) If there was an easy video to link I would, but the only people I've seen explaining this kind of stuff only provide the info pay per view. Again need video of you squatting to see if it's ok or not.

4. One trip a week for 3-6 months might get you all fixed up. It took you decades to engrain this posture...it isn't gonna get fixed overnight. I've been going 4 months and my hips are still in a bad position, but I could be more diligent with my at home exercises and my "patterns" are very resistant to change from all the years of lifting.


Disclaimer: When I mention I need to see a video to gauge if an exercise is "safe" or not is an educated guess. You (and a professional) are the only ones that will truly know. That's why learning the ins and outs of this will vastly help you. When you can look at your own videos and know what to change you'll be headed in the right direction.


Also need all videos from the side so I can see what your lower back is doing.

Alright, just so happens I took some form videos a couple of weeks ago. I understand your disclaimer and I’m completely comfortable taking an educated guess from you about whether they’re safe exercises. I’m already pursuing professional help, and of course, I’m personally very cautious about keeping myself safe.

So with that said, please let me know your thoughts!

Zerchers: https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=ju4kST4wmzk

Yates Row: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97RQ-HtKITM

RDL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ChrJUZoZvI

[davisj3537]

Alright, just so happens I took some form videos a couple of weeks ago. I understand your disclaimer and I’m completely comfortable taking an educated guess from you about whether they’re safe exercises. I’m already pursuing professional help, and of course, I’m personally very cautious about keeping myself safe.

So with that said, please let me know your thoughts!

Zerchers: https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=ju4kST4wmzk

Yates Row: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97RQ-HtKITM

RDL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ChrJUZoZvI

I don't think yates will ever really be an issue. Not enough flexion. RDL is probably fine as I don't see any lumber movement. Zercher link doesn't work.

[munichveteran]

I don't think yates will ever really be an issue. Not enough flexion. RDL is probably fine as I don't see any lumber movement. Zercher link doesn't work.

Posted the wrong Zercher link. This one works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju4kST4wmzk

[jonmd123]

Posted the wrong Zercher link. This one works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju4kST4wmzk

I know you weren't directing these towards me, but I figured I'd jump in and give my opinion.

Overall, not too bad, but I would tweak a few things.

1. Your set up is good, but your first motion is to shift your weight to your heels and tilting your pelvis forward. You want to maintain mid-foot pressure throughout the whole exercise. I've played around with a few different cues with the people I work with, but currently I have people start on the "balls" of their feet and then shift back as they descend, which seems to work out the best. As far as your pelvis, it isn't too bad, but by tilting forward you are basically going into a few degrees of hip flexion before you even start dropping down (I assume this would be much worse with a back squat). I would try and keep your pelvis "rolled up" to your ribcage during the descent.

2. Towards the bottom, your hips begin to tilt posteriorly (ie butt wink) and your weight travels slightly forward. There could be many causes for this and it would be hard for me to give you any advice without looking at a few other things.

Everything was minor, but doing a zercher squat with a light load, your reps should look really clean.