This is basically where I am at. I do believe that IF is beneficial in that up until my looking into to TDEE I had lost 10 lbs doing it and I was actually still making gains on almost every lift. I have more energy during the day, my mind is sharper, and I sleep better at night. I don't know if it actually makes you less sensitive to insulin or makes you produce more growth hormone but it is an easy way for me to eat so it works for me. I have always had the same macro goals no matter how many calories I ate but when I tried to eat the calories within the TDEE I first calculated I think it was simply too many calories to put me in a deficit. This has been an interesting thread to say the least because it shows we can all get to the same place via different routes.
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Thread: Help me make sense of this
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12-11-2012, 07:38 AM #31The Unexamined Life is not worth living
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12-11-2012, 06:44 PM #32
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12-11-2012, 08:29 PM #33
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12-11-2012, 09:03 PM #34
Intermittent fasting works as well as any other feeding protocol. You can talk about hormones and their acute fluctuations but after a few weeks all of those changes become much less relevant. The body adapts and the same amount of weight loss is achieved with similar calorie deficits. Sometimes it takes a week or two to adjust because it usually involves eating a huge meal at the end of the day. Some people like it while other people do not. It's about personal preference and what makes your lifestyle better. I realize that some individuals respond better to certain diets than others but that does not justify anyone making general statements about what works or not. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...11.00873.x/pdf
When a grown man who weighs 220 pounds says he is gaining weight when he is struggling to eat 2,000 calories then it is reasonable to assume that either he hasn't given himself enough time to adjust to his new eating protocol or he is not calculating calories correctly. Either that or we are looking at a medical condition such as hypothyroidism which I don't think is the case here.
The reason why I'm so adamant about calories in versus calories out is I think it is crucial for people to understand this when it comes to weight loss. Otherwise people start thinking certain foods have certain weight loss properties, they try food separation techniques, or whatever and ignore the overwhelming reason why people lose weight. It is important however to realize that the energy equation (calories in versus calories out) is not a static equation. There are huge individual differences in NEAT (non-exercise activity thermogenesis). Some people spontaneously move around and fidget more in response to over feeding. Over the course of a day this can add up to a lot more calories burned than if this activity did not take place.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post729779703
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...-equation.html
I am somewhat aware of the relationship between sleep and obesity and muscle loss. However, this is a separate discussion.
http://www.cepebr.org/upload/arquivo...Hypotheses.pdf
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/ea...17632.abstract
http://www.gustrength.com/fatloss:ch...on-and-obesity
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12-11-2012, 09:34 PM #35
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12-12-2012, 02:50 AM #36
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12-12-2012, 03:01 AM #37
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You =/= all bodybuilding coaches. (I know several bodybuilding coaches that do).
Again reread my original post if you don't understand. Seems most everyone else does.
Counting "grams" is the same thing as counting calories. All you are discussing is macro management. Those that count calories are advised to do that as well.
The mantra is.. Hit your macros within your caloric limits.
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12-12-2012, 03:14 AM #38
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A calories is just a unit of measure. Nothing more. Yet a cal of sugar, fat, protein in various forum and taken during specific activities act and react totally differently. Counting grams works much better. Ever heard of Hany Rambod? Jay Cutler, Phil Heath, Ron Coleman, Dennis Wolf, Chris Flippetlli, Bleu Taylor, Brandon Lyons, Sean Calder? These are all very successful coaches and IFBB pros who never use calories to train for gaining muscle of losing fat. I don't know who you know who counts calories for conditioning for bodybuilding, modeling and Ironman comps, yet that is what we do and our record speaks for it self.
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12-12-2012, 03:25 AM #39
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I understand that protein isn't the same as fat, isn't the same as a carb. This is were macro management comes in and is tailored to the individual.
Carb = 4 calories a gram.
Protein = 4 calories a gram.
Fat = 9 calories a gram.
If you are counting grams, you are counting calories. You are doing the same thing we have been recommending ... tracking energy intake and macros.
FYI. A gram is a unit of measure, nothing more. If you can determine that grams are relevant to diet, than by the same logic a calorie would be pretty relevant as well.
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12-12-2012, 03:41 AM #40
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Let my say this one more time. To count 100 cals of protein or fat or carb in all their various types burn and act and react so completely different to different training activity. A calorie in isn't just a calorie out. That is why trainer and conditioning coaches care less about calorie when putting together a program. In all the over 10 years I've been training and the many years of training of my peers, none count cals. Why? Because it is the least effective way to lose fat and gain muscle. Your body is a complex machine and just like how a high performance machine acts differently to the fuels and additives in it to perform, so is your body. You can add a gal of gas to a machine, yet what is in that gal will make all the difference as to how it performs. A gal is a unit of measure just is a cal for the body. Yet depending of what that cal is and how you use it will depend on what the outcome is. Grams of protein isn't the same as a gram of sugar. It will not do the same thing to the body. And as I said there are so many different types of sugars and proteins it's important to know what they do to the body as well. So much and so very complicated. Certainly not one generic plan of counting calories will fit everyone. It is a science and an art to know it, understand it, and know how to use it. Again. This is what I have done very successfully over many years.
Yet. With all that, good luck with your programs and ideas. There are many ways to skin a cat.CHECK OUT MY INTERVIEW WITH "SIMPLYSHREDDED"
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12-12-2012, 03:47 AM #41
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12-12-2012, 04:40 AM #42
I'm in agreement that total calories is the biggest determinant of in vs out. I guess the point of my rambling post is that diet isn't "click-i-tecture". The calculators out there for BMR, RMR, TDEE etc are guides, not the end all be all. There are far more variables involved in energy metabolism than those calculators can ever account for.
I think for true success, you start with a guide, plan, evaluate, and adjust accordingly. Keep a journal, monitor it, adjust. Diet is every bit as variable as workout programs. I think most of us regulars are a bit quick to collectively tell a poster he/she's doing it wrong when there can be a sizable +/- margin of error with the calculators and that energy metabolism is a moving target that does change over time. Now, if a poster isn't weighing portions, counting condiments, essentially doing his or her due diligence, then sure, the honest answer is to advise him/her to get on the ball and take care of those items.B: 285
S: 375
D: 555
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12-12-2012, 04:57 AM #43
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12-12-2012, 06:03 AM #44
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I don't think anyone would suggest not having macro targets in the composition of ones diet. I also am not sure that comparing pro BBders and the strategies they use to the average non enhanced guy or gal working out with the goal of losing body fat and increasing functional strength is particularly helpful.
I can only assume there are certain macro nutrients you adjust based on several factors including workout load etc, where timing can be very beneficial in terms of performance, satiety etc. Such strict regimens are difficult for the average beginner who's goal is to reduce an already large body fat percentage. So you are correct, all of the strategies will work, but it certainly depends on the individual, their goals, their experience etc. For many a simple caloric target within the context of macro targets is a good first step to reducing an already very high body fat percentage. More nuanced approaches can certainly come later if they show the discipline to continue. IMO
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12-12-2012, 06:24 AM #45
Okay so I am probably going to regret this but I am more concerned about my macro intake than I am my overall caloric intake as I am not eating more than 2,400 calories a day right now. So if you were me...6'2" currently 222 lbs sedentary at work and lift intensely 4 days a week what would your guys caloric and macro goals be? Keep in mind my goal is to lose 1 lb of fat per week.
The Unexamined Life is not worth living
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12-12-2012, 07:00 AM #46
Simply use the information in this thread to figure yourself a baseline of protein, carbs, fat, and calories. It will give you a starting point from which to evaluate whether you're eating enough, too little, or too much:
*Emma-Leigh's calorie/macro thread: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=121703981No brain, no gain.
"The fitness and nutrition world is a breeding ground for obsessive-compulsive behavior. The irony is that many of the things people worry about have no impact on results either way, and therefore aren't worth an ounce of concern."--Alan Aragon
Where the mind goes, the body follows.
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12-12-2012, 07:09 AM #47
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12-12-2012, 07:11 AM #48
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12-12-2012, 07:26 AM #49
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12-12-2012, 07:38 AM #50
Hope all that info helped you make sense of it all! LOL!!
The takeaway:
1. Everyone is different.
2. Macro's are more important than cal counting.
3. Eat clean.
4. If you have ANY insulin issues at all, maybe IF is not for you.
5. Continue to lift 4 times a week.
6. Up your cardio when you want to lose weight.
7. Beware of paralysis by analysis.
8. Use a mirror not a scale.Luceo non uro - "I shine not burn"
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12-12-2012, 07:45 AM #51
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12-12-2012, 08:34 AM #52
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12-12-2012, 08:56 AM #53
1. Everyone is different. Our similarities far outweigh our differences. There are 3 different body types, each requires a different type of training and therefore weight loss regime. www (dot) bodybuilding (dot) com/fun/becker3.htm
2. Macro's are more important than cal counting. If you are counting macros, you are tracking calories. False, one XL egg has 80 Cals 5g fat and 7g Protien while the same egg white has 35 cals, 0g fat and 7g protien. Very different.
3. Eat clean. WTF is this? Seriously? Ok, eating clean means not eating any processed ANYTHING. Nothing with a bar code, no white ANYTHING; bread, sugar, flour... the list goes on and on. The bottom line is that you can get 140 cal and 39g carbs from a 12 oz can of coke ='s empty calories.
4. If you have ANY insulin issues at all, maybe IF is not for you. And maybe it is. IF seems to improve bio markers, not the other way around. Try telling that to a diabetic or someone that is sensitive to insulin fluctuation.
5. Continue to lift 4 times a week. or 3, or 5. Sure, whatever your schedule is... just keep it up.
6. Up your cardio when you want to lose weight. Or you can just dial in your intake, i.e. reduce caloric intake. Cardio never hurt anyone. Even if you are concerned about burning muscle, there are ways to avoid that.
7. Beware of paralysis by analysis. Ditto Ditto? Are you sure???
8. Use a mirror not a scale. The scale is an important tool when losing weight. If you are in a deficit, the scale should be moving down. It can also be the source for stress, confusion and de-motivation. A lot of people tend to look at it too frequently. Like every day... if you must, then check once a week in the morning before breakfast at a max.Luceo non uro - "I shine not burn"
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12-12-2012, 09:08 AM #54
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I'm sorry, what? I thought you said a minute ago that calorie counting was useless. Emma Leigh's entire thread is about effective calorie counting. Colour me confused.
For what it is worth since counting my intake I've found it extraordinarily easy to manipulate my bodyweight. Before doing so I tended to undereat for days then "binge" in an ever repeating cycle which killed any training results.
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12-12-2012, 09:34 AM #55
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The 3 "basic" ****totypes have been debunked, and was an archaic way of relating personality traits with body type. While there are variations in metabolism, bone structure, etc, it doesn't effect the way you train or eat. The basics are the SAME for everyone.
2. Macro's are more important than cal counting. If you are counting macros, you are tracking calories. False, one XL egg has 80 Cals 5g fat and 7g Protien while the same egg white has 35 cals, 0g fat and 7g protien. Very different.
3. Eat clean. WTF is this? Seriously? Ok, eating clean means not eating any processed ANYTHING. Nothing with a bar code, no white ANYTHING; bread, sugar, flour... the list goes on and on. The bottom line is that you can get 140 cal and 39g carbs from a 12 oz can of coke ='s empty calories.
4. If you have ANY insulin issues at all, maybe IF is not for you. And maybe it is. IF seems to improve bio markers, not the other way around. Try telling that to a diabetic or someone that is sensitive to insulin fluctuation.
5. Continue to lift 4 times a week. or 3, or 5. Sure, whatever your schedule is... just keep it up.
6. Up your cardio when you want to lose weight. Or you can just dial in your intake, i.e. reduce caloric intake. Cardio never hurt anyone. Even if you are concerned about burning muscle, there are ways to avoid that.
8. Use a mirror not a scale. The scale is an important tool when losing weight. If you are in a deficit, the scale should be moving down. It can also be the source for stress, confusion and de-motivation. A lot of people tend to look at it too frequently. Like every day... if you must, then check once a week in the morning before breakfast at a max.
7. Beware of paralysis by analysis. Ditto Ditto? Are you sure???Get diet in check
A. Start counting calories IMMEDIATELY, purchase a scale and weigh all portions. "Myfitnesspal" is a one of the easiest online programs for counting, and is free here. --------> http://www.myfitnesspal.com/
B. Determine starting calories here ------------> http://www.iifym.com/tdee-calculator
C. Consume appropriate macros. 1 gram of protein and 1/2 gram of fat per pound of goal weight.The remainder of you calories can be any macro of your choosing, but stay within your caloric limit.
D. Once you start counting, monitor for 2 weeks. If you do not lose weight, reduce intake by 100 calories a day and monitor for a week. Continue to do so until you are losing weight at the rate of 1 pound per week.
E.Choose an eating pattern that best fits into your lifestyle. If you don't like multiple small meals, stop jamming a round peg into a square hole.
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12-12-2012, 10:22 AM #56
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12-12-2012, 11:12 AM #57
While I agree with more less everything you wrote .
You want to think about things like Leptin. IIRC there was a study done in either 2009 or 2010. It showed the level various test subjects reacted to low leptin varied wildly. Some people started to slow down and save bf at fairly high levels. Others didn't react even if fairly lean levels. These were all "normal" subjects. Not people with leptin issues.
I don't think humans are yet coming off some mass assembly line built to some blue print.
BTW plug pubmed ****totypes into google. Might change your mind on how archaic they are.
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12-12-2012, 11:22 AM #58
All of this ^^^^^
From my perspective, your 20 hours of fasting has stalled your metabolisim. Now that you are replenishing your system your body is going to store this cause it doesn't know when it will be fed next. Based on that, you are still not in a deficit.
I am like Old Sup. I do not count calories. I count macros and split that into my meals for the day (6).
Once your body knows it will be getting the right food regularly you can fine tune your macros and weight will start to drop without sacrificing muscle mass.We all have our good days and our bad ones. What separates us is those who can turn a bad day into a good one...
When your not training or running just know no matter what some place someone is doing one more set or one more mile. Stay motivated!!!
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12-12-2012, 01:07 PM #59
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The scales only tell you how much you weigh. It does't tell you your BMI or how you look and feel. As I said before, none of my clients are to ever step on the scales unless it's almost show time in a bbing contest. I can tell in an instant how fat you are and if your diet and exercise program is working by your progress pics. If the symmetry and leanness is there, then you are heading in the right direction. When a client of mine is getting ready for a shoot or film, who cares what he or she weighs? All the photographer cares about is does he look lean and have abs? I weigh about every 6 mths personally if at all. I can tell by a quick look in the mirror if I like what I see. If you want to weigh yourself because it makes you feel better. Then I guess you can. Yet not in my stable.
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12-12-2012, 01:38 PM #60
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Er, no way to find your BMI without knowing your weight since the two figures you factor into it are your weight and height Linky. Of course BMI is about as useful as a chocolate fireguard. I'm overweight on the BMI scale. LOL!
I like knowing my weight. It's just another tool to use, not the only one. It helps me understand if I've got the surplus or deficit I want, it enables me to compare leanness against weight to get an understanding of what LBM gains I'm making. The mirror is just as important. It's the trends I look for, not the individual data points from either the scale or my reflection.Last edited by lunchbreak; 12-12-2012 at 01:49 PM.
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