How do you know when your volume is too high without any pains?

[Animal2692]

If you're not having any joint or tendon pain or long lasting soreness of any kind, what are other ways to tell if your weekly volume is too high? You can do too much volume to the point where you're clearly getting weaker every workout and every week, but is it possible to do just enough volume where you recover back to baseline performance but not enough to make any progress either?

[MyEgoProblem]

That's called maintenance. Yes.
You can maintain on about 1/6-1/4 your building workload.

[Animal2692]

That's called maintenance. Yes.
You can maintain on about 1/6-1/4 your building workload.

Right but by maintenance I usually think of it as volume being too low to progress. But can volume be -too high- where you're only maintaining and still not progressing? It's not high enough to make you regress but still too high to progress, is that possible? In theory if fitness is masked by fatigue, then fatigue can also only partially dissipate to the point where you can put in the same performance, but not enough to where you can eventually do better

[air2fakie]

Right but by maintenance I usually think of it as volume being too low to progress. But can volume be -too high- where you're only maintaining and still not progressing? It's not high enough to make you regress but still too high to progress, is that possible?

Yes, one of many ways to spin your wheels. It'll usually be an overall programming matter, with volume being one component in the total mix.

[Animal2692]

Yes, one of many ways to spin your wheels. It'll usually be an overall programming matter, with volume being one component in the total mix.

Well it seems that when you're checking all the other boxes, the only other variable left responsible for progress is volume since volume is "an umbrella" so to speak like Eric Helms described it

[air2fakie]

Well it seems that when you're checking all the other boxes, the only other variable left responsible for progress is volume since volume is "an umbrella" so to speak like Eric Helms described it

What that volume consists of and how you spread that volume out are inherent parts of the concept.

[ECGordyn]

If you're not having any joint or tendon pain or long lasting soreness of any kind, what are other ways to tell if your weekly volume is too high? You can do too much volume to the point where you're clearly getting weaker every workout and every week, but is it possible to do just enough volume where you recover back to baseline performance but not enough to make any progress either?

Yes it's possible. In which case, reduce volume a bit so that supercompensation is greater than recovery, i.e, you got stronger last week and fitness overcomes fatigue.

[Animal2692]

What that volume consists of and how you spread that volume out are inherent parts of the concept.

Yes, for sure. But from what I'm seeing and I don't know if it's just me, but volume seems to be the variable that requires more experimentation with. It's pretty easy for most people to understand hard sets as being 0-4 RIR, needing a frequency of at least 2x a week but from there on it's like ok now how much of -that- do I do now? Anyone can do sets with 2 RIR, frequency of 3x a week but getting the volume right seems to be trickier as it varies widely from individual to individual. It's just not as clear cut. After you have all your other ducks in a row it's as if volume is best served as dedicating an entire block to it and adjusting as needed based off that block. You just don't know as instantaneously as taking a set to failure for example.

[Animal2692]

Yes it's possible. In which case, reduce volume a bit so that supercompensation is greater than recovery, i.e, you got stronger last week and fitness overcomes fatigue.

I guess it's a relief getting confirmation on this because now I know what I'm going to do but at the same time, I did spend a decent amount of time observing the results from it which was probably necessary anyways. Just sucks that we can't always get it right from the getgo. I've been doing everything else right but for 8 straight weeks it feels like I've only been recovering enough to baseline but not to progress. But it does feel like if I was to do more volume, then I'd finally start to regress but the lack of that regression made me give it a lot more time than if I was outright regressing. I've made some tiny tiny gains which tells me my body has been on the cusp of progressing but I'm not allowing it enough recovery

[Filmbuff81]

You can also not progress from too little volume.

It’s a balancing act that takes trial and error.

You’re never going to get it 100% right and it’s a moving goalpost anyway.

[air2fakie]

Yes, for sure. But from what I'm seeing and I don't know if it's just me, but volume seems to be the variable that requires more experimentation with. It's pretty easy for most people to understand hard sets as being 0-4 RIR, needing a frequency of at least 2x a week but from there on it's like ok now how much of -that- do I do now? Anyone can do sets with 2 RIR, frequency of 3x a week but getting the volume right seems to be trickier as it varies widely from individual to individual. It's just not as clear cut. After you have all your other ducks in a row it's as if volume is best served as dedicating an entire block to it and adjusting as needed based off that block. You just don't know as instantaneously as taking a set to failure for example.

Sure, play with volume which is a key driver - but keep in mind those 6 set compounds and supersets of isos hitting the same muscle groups might be something you want to play with over time too if they don't seem to be working for you.

[ECGordyn]

I guess it's a relief getting confirmation on this because now I know what I'm going to do but at the same time, I did spend a decent amount of time observing the results from it which was probably necessary anyways. Just sucks that we can't always get it right from the getgo. I've been doing everything else right but for 8 straight weeks it feels like I've only been recovering enough to baseline but not to progress. But it does feel like if I was to do more volume, then I'd finally start to regress but the lack of that regression made me give it a lot more time than if I was outright regressing. I've made some tiny tiny gains which tells me my body has been on the cusp of progressing but I'm not allowing it enough recovery

Training is always going to be like that. A program or method will work until the body stops adapting to it. Then you have to decide what to change. The best decision combines your experience with knowledge. Track everything and save it for future reference. It's an ongoing and never ending process for as long as you train.

[Animal2692]

Training is always going to be like that. A program or method will work until the body stops adapting to it. Then you have to decide what to change. The best decision combines your experience with knowledge. Track everything and save it for future reference. It's an ongoing and never ending process for as long as you train.

That's exactly what I'm doing in my notes. Now I'm gonna give this 30% reduction in volume 8 weeks and see how it goes. I used to think of recovery as a black and white thing where you're either progressing or regressing with no in between. But then that doesn't make any sense. It's like throwing a steak on the grill...it doesn't instantly go from red to brown after a certain amount of time

[ECGordyn]

That's exactly what I'm doing in my notes. Now I'm gonna give this 30% reduction in volume 8 weeks and see how it goes. I used to think of recovery as a black and white thing where you're either progressing or regressing with no in between. But then that doesn't make any sense. It's like throwing a steak on the grill...it doesn't instantly go from red to brown after a certain amount of time

Might run a 1-2 week pivot first to resensitize to training before making your main change.

Think of it like loud music. If you turn down the volume from 10 to 7, then 7 sounds like a whisper. First turn it down to 3, or completely change the tunes, then go back to your favorite jam at 7 and it rocks.

[Animal2692]

Sure, play with volume which is a key driver - but keep in mind those 6 set compounds and supersets of isos hitting the same muscle groups might be something you want to play with over time too if they don't seem to be working for you.

Yeah I've cut volume by 30% starting today's workout of the 9th week. Every week and workout up until now has been feeling like I've just recovered enough to repeat the same effort from last time because I can still feel some fatigue left over but not enough to the point that I'm doing worse than last time. Either I need less volume or I'm just really good at maximizing my sets so any extra sets is just detrimental. I went from 6 to 12 weekly sets pretty quick when I first started with only a week at 9. Should of stuck with 9 for a while before going to 12

[Animal2692]

Might run a 1-2 week pivot first to resensitize to training before making your main change.

Think of it like loud music. If you turn down the volume from 10 to 7, then 7 sounds like a whisper. First turn it down to 3, or completely change the tunes, then go back to your favorite jam at 7 and it rocks.

I see what you mean. Pivot weeks are also used as a type of deload I believe

Here's the funny thing. The only time I really see any progress, is after my 2 days off before I start my split again the following week. That's the only time when the rpe for the same weight and reps has decreased slightly. Then by the end of that week I'm not wiped out, but just thrashed, keeping my head above water. The rpe for the same stimulus actually goes back up to what it was at the end of the previous week lol. If I didn't have those two days off and kept the game going, I'd probably start to see performance going down. It's like I'm taking 2 steps forward then exactly 2 steps back. If it wasn't enough stimulus, then I wouldn't even see an improvement after those 2 days so I know it can't be that I need more

[Filmbuff81]

Yeah I've cut volume by 30% starting today's workout of the 9th week. Every week and workout up until now has been feeling like I've just recovered enough to repeat the same effort from last time because I can still feel some fatigue left over but not enough to the point that I'm doing worse than last time. Either I need less volume or I'm just really good at maximizing my sets so any extra sets is just detrimental. I went from 6 to 12 weekly sets pretty quick when I first started with only a week at 9. Should of stuck with 9 for a while before going to 12

This is not a dig so don’t take it that way.

But I’ve seen some of your videos you’ve posted and I would not say you’re really good at maximizing your sets.

Your form leaves a lot to be desired and so if anything you’re leaking progress due to your inability to really target the intended muscle.

This is one reason I think you’ve said you’ve benefited from cables and isos a lot, because it’s allowing you to feel the intended muscle group.

Edit:

Forgot to add when we all suggested to increase weekly sets, we said slowly and systematically.

You went too hard too fast and probably went higher than you needed.

[MyEgoProblem]

Probably due an rpe audit too..
Make sure you are accurate rating your @8s
Deload is a great time to do this.

Everyone is saying vol is too high too fast
Vol could be too low if you're umdershooting too much as well

[paulinkansas]

Adam Sandler works out three times a week.

[Animal2692]

This is not a dig so don’t take it that way.

But I’ve seen some of your videos you’ve posted and I would not say you’re really good at maximizing your sets.

Your form leaves a lot to be desired and so if anything you’re leaking progress due to your inability to really target the intended muscle.

This is one reason I think you’ve said you’ve benefited from cables and isos a lot, because it’s allowing you to feel the intended muscle group.

Edit:

Forgot to add when we all suggested to increase weekly sets, we said slowly and systematically.

You went too hard too fast and probably went higher than you needed.

I told myself at least it's not 18-20 sets a week to justify the increase lol. I've had a good amount of time to dial my form in as well, especially shifting the rep range to 8-10 from 5-8. My quads would already be pumped from squats before I even hit the leg extensions. Maybe that's the best thing about a pump-it tells you whether you're targeting that muscle well enough or not. On face pulls and lateral raises for example I strive to get a pump in my rear and lateral delts from the very first set since those are easy to screw up

[BeginnerGainz]

You’re probably overthinking it again.

[Animal2692]

You’re probably overthinking it again.

I gave it 8 weeks and lifts hardly progressed. Squat went from 185 to 195 for 8-10 reps, everything else remained about the same. That's without trying to force weight on the bar, enough protein and calories using fitnesspal daily. I even got a testosterone test scheduled up ahead for the hell of it. That's why I was asking if it's possible to do just enough to replicate the effort from last time but still too much to not allow any real progress to take place

[air2fakie]

I gave it 8 weeks and lifts hardly progressed. Squat went from 185 to 195 for 8-10 reps, everything else remained about the same. That's without trying to force weight on the bar, enough protein and calories using fitnesspal daily. I even got a testosterone test scheduled up ahead for the hell of it

Seriously, assuming the T-test confirms you're still a man, try breaking up your compound movements across the 2 days, and reduce your isos a bit and don't them in those 4 exercise supersets.

[Animal2692]

Seriously, assuming the T-test confirms you're still a man, try breaking up your compound movements across the 2 days, and reduce your isos a bit and don't them in those 4 exercise supersets.

My wife doesn't complain (even when I went on cuts ages ago) so I highly doubt it's the T levels. But I am curious to see where I'm at within the range.

Anyways, you're saying it's better to spread the volume more as opposed to cutting it back slightly? I'd have to switch from U/L 4x a week to 6x a week to make that work which I can do pretty easily seeing that I've haven't had any problems getting my workouts in these 8 weeks as much as I thought I would

[Filmbuff81]

Since you’ve already increased your sets rapidly vs adding 1-2 sets and examining for a few weeks, I’d say deload and then try PPL.

As mentioned above you could either not be recovering by your next session, volume could be too high, volume could be too low.

Deload and spreading out the volume will answer some of these questions.

Either performance will stagnate after 1-2 weeks in which case add a set or 2 to the movements you’re struggling with.

You shouldn’t just make global changes to every lift.

As someone who had to get on TRT in his mid 30s you’d probably know it if your body was fukked beyond the point where you’re out of range or very low normal.

Edit: you don’t NEED to go to 6 days.

But eventually 5/6 days would Be beneficial to spread volume out more if it gets pretty high.

[Animal2692]

Since you’ve already increased your sets rapidly vs adding 1-2 sets and examining for a few weeks, I’d say deload and then try PPL.

As mentioned above you could either not be recovering by your next session, volume could be too high, volume could be too low.

Deload and spreading out the volume will answer some of these questions.

Either performance will stagnate after 1-2 weeks in which case add a set or 2 to the movements you’re struggling with.

You shouldn’t just make global changes to every lift.

As someone who had to get on TRT in his mid 30s you’d probably know it if your body was fukked beyond the point where you’re out of range or very low normal.

Edit: you don’t NEED to go to 6 days.

But eventually 5/6 days would Be beneficial to spread volume out more if it gets pretty high.

So let me ask you this. Spreading the volume if possible, is better than an outright reduction? Bit of a rhetorical question but maybe you can expand on that

Any particular advantages of PPL over U/L 6x a week? Volume equated

[Filmbuff81]

So let me ask you this. Spreading the volume if possible, is better than an outright reduction? Bit of a rhetorical question but maybe you can expand on that

Any particular advantages of PPL over U/L 6x a week? Volume equated

Preference. I like to have a focus for the day and I find it helps reduce training time.

My sessions are already 75-120 minutes so if I can reduce warming up it’ll cut down a lot for me.

I also have zero need to train my legs with 3x frequency.

Also the reason i was suggesting spreading the volume because there definitely is an upper threshold of what you can recover from in a single session.

[air2fakie]

Any particular advantages of PPL over U/L 6x a week? Volume equated

If you're going to do 6 days do a PPL. You don't have the volume in your leg workouts to justify 3 lowers, so it fits better if you're keeping your workout similar-ish to what you're doing now.

[MyEgoProblem]

I hate ppl xD.. It's miserable.

After the 3rd lift I'm fed up and have no desire to do more of the same.. Plus there is only so much volume you can do in one session.

Even if its framed as squat/bench/dead days.. I still have to do other stuff. Splits are just for people who can't manage fatigue... or drink juice*. ;- p

[Animal2692]

Preference. I like to have a focus for the day and I find it helps reduce training time.

My sessions are already 75-120 minutes so if I can reduce warming up it’ll cut down a lot for me.

I also have zero need to train my legs with 3x frequency.

Also the reason i was suggesting spreading the volume because there definitely is an upper threshold of what you can recover from in a single session.

So it's not just how much volume you do for a single muscle group, it's also the total volume done in the entire session? I guess it makes sense. Body has to allocate energy and resources where needed so everything is in a tug of war trying to recover