Unlike others, you're bright.
What specifically did Trump do wrong? What should he have done? You're an OG join date, show me your posts from Jan-March where you were advocating anything that made any sense.
Keep in mind his role: President. Not Dictator, not King, not Emperor.
Governors are making decisions for their states. Trump isn't.
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07-10-2020, 07:42 AM #61All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
- Arthur Schopenhauer
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07-10-2020, 08:15 AM #62
Would you stop posting this garbage already?
1. Read what the header says: "The CFR is a poor measure of the mortality risk."
2. Yes, we're testing more but why is that? The disease is out of control in the US while ramping down in all those other countries except for UK perhaps.
3. Why are you comparing US to third world south american countries? Is that who we should be compared with?
4. Great news, we are 7th on the list in the world. And will be top 5 at this rate. Wonderful.
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07-10-2020, 08:21 AM #63
- Join Date: Aug 2004
- Location: Dubai, United Arab Emirates
- Posts: 15,454
- Rep Power: 96341
Well here's what i personally think he could have done better:
1 - He praised China and Xi. Whichever side of 5he argument you take, that was just bad.
2 - Many thousands of Chinese people enteres the US after the ban. As the big boss, you are always accountable for weak execution
3 - The POTUS is a person other people look up to. He has more influence than anybody else on the planet. There's no denying that. Look at how often we discuss him on this forum alone. That said, he should have led by example. Wear a damn mask for example. Instead he chose to pander.
4 - There's no need to lie. Small lies here and there. Neverending. I know you're ok with looking past them because you agree with his policies, and that's fine, but we can all agree it's a terrible habit he has. Yoo many to list.
5 - He chose to engage in petty fights and arguments during a pandemic and recession. The last one was bubba wallace. Again, lack of leadership. Focus on the task at hand and stop engaging.
6 - He's been acting like a child throughout thr whole pandemic. How many times has he tweeted about Obama in the past few months. Let is go man, there's no need to bring up how Obama handled H1N1 in 2009.
7 - Labeling Churches as essential, therefore allowing them to open. More pandering and unnecessarily putting people at risk.
8 - He actually went golfing during a pandemic....multiple times.
9 - His incredibly dismissive attitude at the start. "It's a little like the regular flu that we have flu shots for". Unacceptable IMO. And you also can't deny how influential his words are, because we have an entire brigade of "it's just a flu bro" posters on this sub alone.
10 - Claiming in March that travelers to the US were being tested. They weren't.
11 - removing the independent watchdog in charge of overseeing the $2 trillion package.
12 - You may disagree with shelter in palce orders now, and i guess we can have a debate about that. But, i don't believe anybody should have been opposed to the lockdown measures at the start. People are dumb, they're going to do dumb stuff if you let them. A lockdown was needed. Trump pandering to his base by saying "LIBERATE MINNESOTA" and "LIBERATE MICHIGAN" and "LIBERATE VIRGINIA" back in mid April was just dumb, and very counter productive, because again, people listen to thr POTUS.
The list is much longer, but that's a good start. I didn't copy this from anywere; these are my thoughts."Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
Atheist Lebanese
BDS: Boycott - Divestment - Sanctions
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07-10-2020, 08:26 AM #64Don't push me 'cause I'm close to the edge
I'm trying not to lose my head
It's like a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin' under…~ (Melvin Glover, better known by his stage name Melle Mel and Grandmaster Melle Mel, is an American hip hop recording artist who was the lead vocalist and songwriter of Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five.)
Early AM workout crew.
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07-10-2020, 08:31 AM #65
If Trump's response if deemed a failure, imagine how bad it would be if democrats were in power?
- Biden called Trump a xenophobe for banning travel to china
- Democrat governors pumped COVID patients into nursing homes
What would Biden have done differently that would have led to a better outcome? The answer is nothing. It would have been worse.
So if we are to criticize Trump, you have to also admit that the alternative would be worse. I'm confident that we would have had more infected and more deaths if dems were in charge, along with a worse economic recovery.
With regard to your last point, the shelter in place orders were meant to flatten the curve. Dem states flattened their curve and then refused to reopen. If the goal is no cases before reopening, our country won't survive. A $1200 stimulus check isn't going to get the country through months and months of sheltering in place, and we are in debt as a country, we can't magically make trillions appear to keep everyone afloat. People need to work.
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07-10-2020, 08:38 AM #66
5/6 times as many infected European people **flew into New York with the virus** than the Chinese, so while blocking the Chinese sounds great on paper it was Europe that should have been blocked.
2.4 million>400,000There is an unspoken thing, we are iron brothers and sisters, we are to support each other and...It is our duty to support our brothers and sisters in the iron game!
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07-10-2020, 08:38 AM #67
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07-10-2020, 08:44 AM #68
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07-10-2020, 09:08 AM #69
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07-10-2020, 09:19 AM #70
Cool, I actually haven't read what you said and I'll reply to it as I go.
> 1 - He praised China and Xi. Whichever side of 5he argument you take, that was just bad.
- He does this a lot, praising one day, negging the next. I think it's a negotiation tactic. Bad? Meh, whatever, if it works it works. Does it? Here, I doubt it.
> 2 - Many thousands of Chinese people enteres the US after the ban. As the big boss, you are always accountable for weak execution
- I don't know the ins-and-outs and I don't think a ban as late as he made it had any kind of affect on anything. Just too late. Good on him for trying but yeah people getting through would be a weakness (imagine if it had been done early enough to matter, then it would have been bad)
> 3 - The POTUS is a person other people look up to. He has more influence than anybody else on the planet. There's no denying that. Look at how often we discuss him on this forum alone. That said, he should have led by example. Wear a damn mask for example. Instead he chose to pander.
- At which point should he have done that? What date? This mask stuff is fairly recent.
> 4 - There's no need to lie. Small lies here and there. Neverending. I know you're ok with looking past them because you agree with his policies, and that's fine, but we can all agree it's a terrible habit he has. Yoo many to list.
- I see this as a Yank thing, he speaks in absolutes, it's how he's operated (to great success) over the years. Everything is, "The best!" or "The worst! Terrible!", nothing is every "yeah that's fine."... and I don't think this critique belongs anywhere on this list, because - who cares? Would him have sticking to absolute fact-checked-only with no hyperbole rather than speak in his perceived direction boldly mattered to anyone?
> 5 - He chose to engage in petty fights and arguments during a pandemic and recession. The last one was bubba wallace. Again, lack of leadership. Focus on the task at hand and stop engaging.
- He can do two things at once. Three, four, even hundreds. I see this as another, "Who cares" because unless his engagement with Bubba Wallace served as a distraction and hurt his response on Covid - then it doesn't matter. Did it? Did that 30 second tweet keep him from making a critical decision which would have saved a single life? No. So: Who cares. In fact, as someone who dislikes the 'other side' of the culture war, I'm glad he's pressing against the extremists and race-baiting identitarians -- so long as it doesn't impair his ability to lead otherwise, and it doesn't.
> 6 - He's been acting like a child throughout thr whole pandemic. How many times has he tweeted about Obama in the past few months. Let is go man, there's no need to bring up how Obama handled H1N1 in 2009.
- Dude, you don't like him. I respect your not liking him, but because you don't like his manner or speech that doesn't mean he bungled this covid thing. I'm seeing a lot of your points that are along this. "Well he's a big jerk!" ... and? Yeah, you think he's a stinker, I get it. Unless his being a bad meanie did something directly then get off it.
> 7 - Labeling Churches as essential, therefore allowing them to open. More pandering and unnecessarily putting people at risk.
- Here's a policy, one that you could argue put people at risk. Noted.
> 8 - He actually went golfing during a pandemic....multiple times.
- I've defended Bush and Obama over this one when the other guys would go after them on this (and I disliked both as leaders/president). They all do this, they all get chit done while doing it, they all can't be sitting at meeting for 18 hours straight 7 days a week. They ALL DO THIS, it's not only a problem when it's Obama and you're a Republican or if it's Bush/Trump when you're a Democrat.
> 9 - His incredibly dismissive attitude at the start. "It's a little like the regular flu that we have flu shots for". Unacceptable IMO. And you also can't deny how influential his words are, because we have an entire brigade of "it's just a flu bro" posters on this sub alone.
- A lot of people were comparing it to the flu at the start. He was off, although not nearly as off as others who later estimated it at 3-6% mortality. This is a point and it's noted, though.
> 10 - Claiming in March that travelers to the US were being tested. They weren't.
- This would go beyond the earlier "he's a Yank and exaggerated" kind of thing I don't care about, THIS is an actual lie that matters. Noted.
> 11 - removing the independent watchdog in charge of overseeing the $2 trillion package.
- Noted.
> 12 - You may disagree with shelter in palce orders now, and i guess we can have a debate about that. But, i don't believe anybody should have been opposed to the lockdown measures at the start. People are dumb, they're going to do dumb stuff if you let them. A lockdown was needed. Trump pandering to his base by saying "LIBERATE MINNESOTA" and "LIBERATE MICHIGAN" and "LIBERATE VIRGINIA" back in mid April was just dumb, and very counter productive, because again, people listen to thr POTUS.
- Noted.
... Okay, boiling out some of the more emotional "I just don't like the guy" responses, we're left with...
He should have worn or be wearing a mask.
He labeled Churches as essential
His attitude at the start was dismissive
You claim he was lying about people being tested in March when they weren't (people coming into the country?)
Removed an individual watchdog in charge of 2 trillion package
... Yeah, certainly didn't handle it perfectly. I agree with one point (he was too soft initially) and would probably want clarification on other parts (more info on that watchdog group, him lying in March).
Like you, we disagree on the extent I'm sure but neither of us think he was perfect throughout this. I think he made mistakes, I think he did some things right, I also hold other parties as far more responsible. Some of them beyond his control.. so it's not like his people bungling something - that's ultimately on him. I mean like Governors, the media, China, the WHO, etc...
Anyway, glad SOMEONE finally put some stuff down. We can talk now. Should have figured it'd been you, like I said from the start you're a lot sharper than some of these people who take these positions.All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
- Arthur Schopenhauer
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07-10-2020, 10:16 AM #71
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07-10-2020, 10:33 AM #72
The issue isn't that Trump did something wrong... he just didn't do much of anything. He left the borders open when Corona was spreading across the world and downplayed the problem. What he didn't do:
1) Close the borders to European countries where the virus was spreading rapidly, until it was too late and the virus was already in the US.
2) Tell citizens to wear a mask. Evidence is that a mask helps but even if it doesn't it's not doing any harm. It's a small sacrifice to avoid spreading disease.
3) Implement contact tracing and testing for anyone who entered the US prior to November 2019.
If he had done this there would have been a very good chance to nip this thing in the bud. Yes it would cost a few billion and take some manpower but nothing compared to the trillions we are pumping into our crippled economy.
Instead Trump to this day denies the extent of the problem and refuses to set an example by wearing a mask, a recommendation from his own CDC.
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07-10-2020, 11:01 AM #73
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07-10-2020, 11:19 AM #74
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07-10-2020, 11:46 AM #75
to this day trump is brainwashing his low iq followers with this “china travel ban” when in reality it was pure trash. it wasn’t even a real ban, he let planes from certain areas like shanghai enter on american land without a break. other countries acted much faster and put stricter bans on china. this retard let planes from europe russia india brazil literally the whole planet come in without any issues. i could facepalm into oblivion and the majority of his dumb followers just believe everything he says without questioning a thing, shows you how manipulative and weak people are.
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07-10-2020, 11:55 AM #76
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07-10-2020, 12:57 PM #77
Thanks, not sure I agree but it's always good when people list things out and make a cohesive point VS the more ambiguous "Trump is responsible! look at all the dead!" kinds of non-arguments.
Trump probably should have closed the borders to Europe at the same time - although honestly in hindsight, either action would have needed to been taken much earlier (I don't think locking down a border once it's here matters as much).
Is he playing politics with the Masking? I've noticed this one is more recent. It's come after the initial lockdown, which ruined the economy, then many of the same voices (in media, some 'experts' and such) applauding and encouraging the protests/riots. I think that made him throw up his hands and say it's all bullchit -- I know that was my reaction and the reaction of a lot of people at that time. I also think it's the wrong thing, he probably should be encouraging people to mask if it helps. Even if it doesn't help much, maybe it might make people feel better and feel less afraid, which as a leader he should be considering. It might also help people get out and do more, something the economy needs.
#3 Like I said, cat's out of the bag, I think overall testing-wise we're ahead of the curve compared to most countries. I know I had zero problems getting tested just yesterday. Took an appointment (made on Tuesday) but insurance was fine, the process was easy, etc...
... Overall, you make good points. I don't think you're overly off base with anything, my push back to you -- Is your argument or belief that Trump could have done better? That he made some mistakes along the way? OR, are you suggesting as I see quite often, that he completely failed, he is completely responsible for the spread and that he did an absolutely terrible job in handling this?
IMO, I feel like for many people, they see what they want to see. Maybe I'm biased because I tend to support Trump, but I see a novel situation, a new viral outbreak, I see mixed messages and outright lies from the WHO, I saw a lot of outlets talking about it in early 2020 dismissing it, I did not see anyone taking it seriously up until about the same time Trump did, I see a lot of people who directly ARE responsible for a lot of this (either by insane grouping of elderly and exposing them intentionally, lying for China, China knowing about it and allowing it to spread, etc)...
... so why do they rail about Trump over all these others?
Yeah, buck stops with him, but he's also a President, not a Dictator. He doesn't control China. He doesn't control WHO spreading propaganda misinformation. Nobody had a clue and while he did things wrong and still could be doing better in some ways, I don't get some of the people who make it out as his entire fault and that he did everything so badly. That's just not true.All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
- Arthur Schopenhauer
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07-10-2020, 12:59 PM #78
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07-10-2020, 01:00 PM #79
Yes, just not on Trump's part.
If you argue he did things wrong, was a failure even, I would listen, but clearly here you just dislike/hate Trump and are assigning blame to him based off of that.
As I said above, where I conceded mistakes and failures of Trump on certain things, you also consider:
- Nobody was taking it seriously initially
- The WHO was lying about it initially
- China knew and allowed it to spread early on (outside of China, only)
- Not just Cuomo but a handful of Gov's sent old people to their deaths, which is insane
- The MSM has been utterly irresponsible throughout this
I don't think Trump failed outright. I think he did okay in some areas, meh in others and poorly in a couple.
Nothing he did approaches knowingly lying about it not being human-to-human transmittable in the early days. Nothing he did approaches locking down internal travel because you knew it was bad but allowed international flights in and out. Nothing approaches sending old people back knowing they were sick. Nothing approaches using it as a way to get ratings. Nothing approaches pretending it doesn't exist because of BLM.
There is a lot of blame, Trump gets his share, but please.All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
- Arthur Schopenhauer
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07-10-2020, 01:26 PM #80
You think these places all got hit worse than Italy? That's interesting. I haven't heard about hospitals in the US turning people away because they're over capacity.
I do wonder what our numbers would be like if the people heading up our epicenters weren't mandating covid be put into nursing homes though.Official misc attaché to the Kremlin
Наше дело правое.
Враг будет разбит.
Победа будет за нами!
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07-10-2020, 01:27 PM #81
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07-10-2020, 01:33 PM #82
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07-10-2020, 01:41 PM #83
Lmao. Where do I even start? How about demanding ALL schools reopen or he'll withhold funding? Nothing based on how areas are doing or number of active cases.. just.. fuk it, everyone must reopen or else.
All while he gives no guidance and demands the CDC ease up on their guidelines..
Trump is an absolute joke and deserves ALL the blame he gets.
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07-10-2020, 01:45 PM #84
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07-10-2020, 02:25 PM #85
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07-10-2020, 02:26 PM #86
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07-10-2020, 02:43 PM #87Don't push me 'cause I'm close to the edge
I'm trying not to lose my head
It's like a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin' under…~ (Melvin Glover, better known by his stage name Melle Mel and Grandmaster Melle Mel, is an American hip hop recording artist who was the lead vocalist and songwriter of Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five.)
Early AM workout crew.
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07-10-2020, 02:46 PM #88
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07-10-2020, 02:48 PM #89
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07-10-2020, 02:55 PM #90
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