MISC Crypto Crew (MCC) Vol: XIII: Money printer goes brrrrrr, But Bitcoin doesnt

[BetaAsPhuck]

Bitcoin isn't turing complete. Bcash is a failure and I don't take anyone who thinks bigger blocks solve the blockchain trillema seriously.

Which Bitcoin blockchain are you talking about?

"Gold doesn't challenge the current financial system"

U wot? Precious metals certainly challenge fiat currencies.

How?

What is Gold existing currently doing to challenge the fiat currencies? All people do is use it as a store of value.

Gold backed currencies challenge fiat currencies, but Gold being used as a store of value does nothing. It's just an alternative savings account for fiat.

[BDSMBBW]

Roger Ver's experience and observations inside the Bitcoin community of state actors being 'interested in' and infiltrating the community.

[BetaAsPhuck]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/8vEAMGv.jpg[/mg]

Bitcoin Cash has the same problem as BTC, developers don't want to embrace big blocks so that big DApps can be built directly on-chain. Roger Ver talks about that in this podcast with Big Block Bitcoin supporters...



Those guys support BSV and BCH. They just prefer BSV because it embraces DApps on-chain along with microtransactions, Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash devs do not. It's a great podcast IMO, those guys are always insightful and objective.


That post was not a support of Bitcoin Cash.

I've noticed that there is a lot of tribalism in Crypto. I have no emotional attachment to any project, I just support decentralization.

[dunnie]

yea for the 52k
and On binance theres still a lot of buy order in the 40-45 k

edit we could dick around 51xxx-45xxx for a while

[entropy91]

Which Bitcoin blockchain are you talking about?



How?

What is Gold existing currently doing to challenge the fiat currencies? All people do is use it as a store of value.

Gold backed currencies challenge fiat currencies, but Gold being used as a store of value does nothing. It's just an alternative savings account for fiat.

I'm talking about the only Bitcoin blockchain that exists. It does not support loops and is not turing complete. Contrast that to ETH which uses gas to solve the halting problem.

"Gold backed currencies challenge fiat currencies"

LOL so currencies backed by GOLD challenge fiat currencies, but GOLD doesn't? Do you even logic?

An alternative savings account for fiat... that people are storing their value in. That makes it the most valuable asset. When monetization occurs it has no ceiling.

People spend fiat currencies because of Gresham's law. The currency deemed the most worthless by society is what is in circulation.

[entropy91]

Bitcoin Cash has the same problem as BTC, developers don't want to embrace big blocks so that big DApps can be built directly on-chain. Roger Ver talks about that in this podcast with Big Block Bitcoin supporters...



Those guys support BSV and BCH. They just prefer BSV because it embraces DApps on-chain along with microtransactions, Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash devs do not. It's a great podcast IMO, those guys are always insightful and objective.


That post was not a support of Bitcoin Cash.

I've noticed that there is a lot of tribalism in Crypto. I have no emotional attachment to any project, I just support decentralization.

Giant block limits go against decentralization. They raise the bar for who can participate in the network. When you get to 1GB you're talking data center levels of computing power needed.

[BetaAsPhuck]

Giant block limits go against decentralization. They raise the bar for who can participate in the network.

Getting off core topic.

Do you have anything to say about the state infiltration of BTC. e.g. the names given in the videos. (The podcast I posted goes into more depth too.)

Convo best continued in this thread though...

https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...hp?t=179820783

[BetaAsPhuck]

I'm talking about the only Bitcoin blockchain that exists. It does not support loops and is not turing complete.

I don't get the anti-Bitcoin fork mindset.

I can't argue against you though, because I would have to try to persuade you to abandon crypto tribalism and purity spiralling.

I have no emotional attachment to any crypto project, so it's difficult for me to empathize with people who are against project because they aren't 'pure' or 'the true version'.

I'm purely a pragmatist when it comes to crypto.

LOL so currencies backed by GOLD challenge fiat currencies, but GOLD doesn't? Do you even logic?

Gold backed currencies put a physical cap on inflation. Currently there is no cap on inflation other than banker's analysis/minds.

Gold as a store of value is simply used for storing fiat currency value against inflation, and getting fiat currency when you sell the gold, to spend in the traditional financial system. It's an alternative savings account, it's used to maintain financial standing within the traditional financial system (store of value) not to challenge it.

An alternative savings account for fiat... that people are storing their value in. That makes it the most valuable asset. When monetization occurs it has no ceiling.

People spend fiat currencies because of Gresham's law. The currency deemed the most worthless by society is what is in circulation.

How does that challenge the financial system?

Currency is used to finance our corrupt political system, wars, intelligence services, etc, and it's controlled by central banks. So how does Gold being a store of value challenge any of that.

A decentralized currency does, because it's not controlled by central banks, and it's used to pay for good and services, borrowing and lending, etc. Currency usage directs resources within a society. Gold is just a store of value.

[entropy91]

Getting off core topic.

Do you have anything to say about the state infiltration of BTC. e.g. the names given in the videos. (The podcast I posted goes into more depth too.)

Convo best continued in this thread though...

https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...hp?t=179820783

Bruh

There's so much misinformation I don't even know where to begin. BTC chain blocksize is essentially 2MB with SegWit, not 1MB.

I'm not going to dive into conspiracy theories. Craig Wright has been claiming to be Satoshi for years and has tried to have the bitcoin whitepaper scrubbed from the internet. Why people still listen to him is beyond me. Seems to only be a few who are subject to cult like narratives.

Bcash and BSV are failures. I'd also love to know how increasing block size miraculously enables Bitcoin to be turing complete.

[entropy91]

I don't get the anti-Bitcoin fork mindset.

OK, I can't argue against it though, because I would have to try to persuade you to abandon crypto tribalism.



Gold backed currencies put a physical cap on inflation. Currently there is no cap on inflation other than banker's analysis/minds.

Gold as a store of value is simply used for storing fiat currency value against inflation, and getting fiat currency when you sell the gold, to spend in the traditional financial system. It's an alternative savings account, it's used to maintain financial standing within the traditional financial system (store of value) not to challenge it.



How does that challenge the financial system?

Currency is used to finance our corrupt political system, wars, intelligence services, etc, and it's controlled by central banks. So how does Gold being a store of value challenge any of that.

A decentralized currency does, because it's not controlled by central banks, and it's used to pay for good and services, borrowing and lending, etc. Currency usage directs resources within a society. Gold is just a store of value.

"I don't get the anti-Bitcoin fork mindset.

OK, I can't argue against it though, because I would have to try to persuade you to abandon crypto tribalism."

Nice strawman. Never once stated I was against the democratic process of forks. I pointed out the absolute incorrectness of you stating Bitcoin was capable of something it isn't.


"Gold as a store of value is simply used for storing fiat currency value against inflation, and getting fiat currency when you sell the gold, to spend in the traditional financial system. It's an alternative savings account, it's used to maintain financial standing within the traditional financial system (store of value) not to challenge it."

Your core argument is that because people are using fiat, gold isn't challenging the financial system. I literally just explained why in the previous post. Gold only has to wait out the inevitable collapse of fiat. Monetization isn't subject to the same valuations as equities. It has no ceiling.

If people are using it to store their value, it is clearly viewed as the superior form of money.


"A decentralized currency does, because it's not controlled by central banks, and it's used to pay for good and services, borrowing and lending, etc. Currency usage directs resources within a society. Gold is just a store of value."

It is much more malleable because of it's digital nature and I would agree is a superior form of wealth storage/ currency.

[BetaAsPhuck]

Bruh

There's so much misinformation I don't even know where to begin. BTC chain blocksize is essentially 2MB with SegWit, not 1MB.

They were talking about the limit at the time of the debate around block size. Which was some years ago.

I'm not going to dive into conspiracy theories.

No discussion can be had then.

Because you are refusing to even look into the issues, you're not arguing against any of the points made.

Which is shown because you then bring up Craig, who is nothing to do with the argument of if the state infiltrated BTC or not.

Craig Wright has been claiming to be Satoshi for years and has tried to have the bitcoin whitepaper scrubbed from the internet. Why people still listen to him is beyond me. Seems to only be a few who are subject to cult like narratives.

Neither one of those vids are centred around Craig. They give specific names of current and past companies and individuals.

If you're not interested in discussing the issue, why did you reply to me? Srs question.

[entropy91]

They were talking about the limit at the time of the debate around block size. Which was some years ago.



No discussion can be had then.

Because you are refusing to even look into the issues, you're not arguing against any of the points made.

Which is shown because you then bring up Craig, who is nothing to do with the argument of if the state infiltrated BTC or not.



Neither one of those vids are centred around Craig. They give specific names of current and past companies and individuals.

If you're not interested in discussing the issue, why did you reply to me? Srs question.

I'm arguing about the tech and economics. Not tinfoil conspiracies.

Lol what issues? No offense, but you don't seem to have a grasp on how Bitcoin even works.

[BetaAsPhuck]

Nice strawman. Never once stated I was against the democratic process of forks. I pointed out the absolute incorrectness of you stating Bitcoin was capable of something it isn't.

You said ' the only Bitcoin', when there's more than one crypto with the name and protocol of Bitcoin. That's what I meant by your 'anti-Bitcoin fork mindset', because you wouldn't even acknowledge the other cryptos with the name and protocol of Bitcoin.

Your core argument is that because people are using fiat, gold isn't challenging the financial system. I literally just explained why in the previous post

I didn't find it convincing, the financial system has carried on fine with Gold being used as a store of value around the world. It has changed nothing.

In theory you may be right, in practice it has literally changed nothing.

Gold only has to wait out the inevitable collapse of fiat.

Maybe your prediction will never come true. The current dollar is being inflated to high heaven, and IMO 'the elite' know this can't last forever, hence why they have been researching since the 90s into creating a CBDC.

Paper from the NSA: https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/cla...nt/nsamint.htm

We are currently transiting to CBDCs, China have already began rolling out their own CBDC in 2020. IMO the transition will happen way before any fiat currency collapse. It's literally in the works right now.

I don't know if you are aware, but even the BIS have publicly admitted that over 70% of central banks are researching into implementing a CBDC.

https://www.ledgerinsights.com/bis-7...currency-cbdc/

It is much more malleable because of it's digital nature and I would agree is a superior form of wealth storage/ currency.

BTC isn't. It's slow and the transaction fees are high.

In say developing nations, $5 transaction fees are a lot of money. IME people in developed nations tend to forget about the cost of living in developing nations.

The 'solution' by Bitcoin supporters is lightning network, which can't scale (Kim DotCom literally tried to use it for his new project, and had to abandon it after 6 months of trying to scale it), and is argued by many to be centralized...


https://www.coindesk.com/bitcoins-li...searchers-find

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/1...67-2630/aba062

[BetaAsPhuck]

I'm arguing about the tech and economics. Not tinfoil conspiracies.

You've already made up your mind without research.

No discussion can be had.

Lol what issues?

1) The issue of state and corporate subversion of Bitcoin.

2) BTC blocksize limiting the ability of microtransactions.

3) BTC block size limit no enabling DApps to be built on chain.

(The kind of DApps I'm referring to are:


Built directly on the Bitcoin Cash blockchain: https://memo.cash/

Built directly on BSV blockchain and http://twetch.cash/ https://streamanity.com/ https://bit.sv/ https://add.bico.media/beta/ https://relica.world/ )

4) The layer 2 solutions to microtransactions and smart contracts being centralized (e.g. lightning network).

5) BTC being used as store of value not challenging the current financial system, which is more than just savings accounts. The current financial system is currency, savings, lending, borrowing, mortgages, cross border payments, etc. None of that can be built on-chain BTC now.

[entropy91]

You said ' the only Bitcoin', when there's more than one crypto with the name and protocol of Bitcoin. That's what I meant by your 'anti-Bitcoin fork mindset', because you wouldn't even acknowledge the other cryptos with the name and protocol of Bitcoin.



I didn't find it convincing, the financial system has carried on fine with Gold being used as a store of value around the world. It has changed nothing.

In theory you may be right, in practice it has literally changed nothing.



Maybe your prediction will never come true. The current dollar is being inflated to high heaven, and IMO 'the elite' know this can't last forever, hence why they have been researching since the 90s into creating a CBDC.

Paper from the NSA: https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/cla...nt/nsamint.htm

We are currently transiting to CBDCs, China have already began rolling out their own CBDC in 2020. IMO the transition will happen way before any fiat currency collapse. It's literally in the works right now.

I don't know if you are aware, but even the BIS have publicly admitted that over 70% of central banks are researching into implementing a CBDC.

https://www.ledgerinsights.com/bis-7...currency-cbdc/



BTC isn't. It's slow and the transaction fees are high.

In say developing nations, $5 transaction fees are a lot of money. IME people in developed nations tend to forget about the cost of living in developing nations.

The 'solution' by Bitcoin supporters is lightning network, which can't scale (Kim DotCom literally tried to use it for his new project, and had to abandon it after 6 months of trying to scale it), and is argued by many to be centralized...


https://www.coindesk.com/bitcoins-li...searchers-find

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/1...67-2630/aba062

There is only one Bitcoin blockchain. That's why I said it, because it's factually correct. Do you understand how forks work? There aren't two identical Bitcoin blockchains. Don't conflate your ignorance with me being stubborn.

I read that NSA paper years ago. Have you read it? It doesn't solve any problems. It's not secure. It's just a ****ty completely digital fiat currency.

Lightning isn't "the solution". There are multiple solutions and proposals. The trilemma of blockchain is security, scalability and decentralization. Bitcoin sacrifices scalability for security and decentralization. Bcash sacrificed decentralization and security for scalability and it has failed.

LOL

https://cash.coin.dance/nodes

[entropy91]

You're already made up your mind without research.

No discussion can be had.



The issue of state and corporate subversion of Bitcoin.

BTC blocksize limiting the ability of microtransactions.

BTC block size limit no enabling DApps to be built on chain.

(The kind of DApps I'm referring to are:


Built directly on the Bitcoin Cash blockchain: https://memo.cash/

Built directly on BSV blockchain and http://twetch.cash/ https://streamanity.com/ https://bit.sv/ https://add.bico.media/beta/ https://relica.world/ )

The layer 2 solutions being centralized.


BTC being used as store of value not challenging the current financial system, which is more than just savings accounts. The current financial system is currency, savings, lending, borrowing, mortgages, cross border payments, etc. None of that can be built on-chain BTC now.

I can't argue with you anymore friend. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Exhibit A:

"BTC blocksize limiting the ability of microtransactions."

Microtransactions aren't handled on chain. Block size has no effect on the throughput of lightning network.

Doesn’t Lightning require bigger blocks anyway?
Lightning is block-size neutral. It requires one on-chain transaction to open a channel between a hub and a client, and one on-chain transaction to close a channel.[59] In between it can support an unlimited number of transactions between anyone on the Lightning network.[62]

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalabili...htning_Network

[BetaAsPhuck]

There is only one Bitcoin blockchain. That's why I said it, because it's factually correct. Do you understand how forks work? There aren't two identical Bitcoin blockchains. Don't conflate your ignorance with me being stubborn.

Semantics, IMO.

I never claimed they were identical. What I did say is they are using the Bitcoin protocol, and they have the Bitcoin name. That is literally what I said.

I have no idea why you are being a dick, we are usually cool with one another.

I read that NSA paper years ago. Have you read it? It doesn't solve any problems. It's not secure. It's just a ****ty completely digital fiat currency.

What I wrote was this...

hence why they have been researching since the 90s into creating a CBDC.

I don't why you took me posting that in a different context.

They are rolling out CBDCs, which will replace current fiat and before fiat will collapse. 'Digital Gold' will be to CBDCs what physical Gold is to current fiat, which was my original point. That's the main point.

Lightning isn't "the solution".

I've spoken and witnessed plenty of discussions with BTC maximalists, and whenever the issue of microtransactions and transaction fees are brought up they always bring up the Lightning Network.

Maybe you have a different experience, however it's presented as the solution literally every single time I've seen the problems brought up. I've never known an exception.

The trilemma of blockchain is security, scalability and decentralization. Bitcoin sacrifices scalability for security and decentralization. Bcash sacrificed decentralization and security for scalability and it has failed.

This is not a Bitcoin vs Bitcoin Cash debate.

I've said multiple times that I'm not tribalistic when it comes to crypto. I'm not looking it as Team vs Team.

[BetaAsPhuck]

"BTC blocksize limiting the ability of microtransactions."

Microtransactions aren't handled on chain.

I'll explain with more clairity... I already said that transaction fees make it hard for people in developing nations to transact. At one point BTC transaction fees were $70.

When people say 'microtransactions' they mean low amount transactions and low fees. BTC can't do that due to the block size. I don't think anyone would say otherwise.

That's why they need to bring in Lightning Network. Unless you are claiming they do not need Lightning Network for microtransactions?

Block size has no effect on the throughput of lightning network.

Where did I say it did?

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalabili...htning_Network

Lightning Network is centralized. Like the research paper I posted says. You didn't address that.

Kim DotCom also tried to scale it for 6 months on his current project, and it wouldn't work. Now he uses Bitcoin Cash and gets chit for it, even after explaining that he wanted to use the Lightning Network but it wouldn't work, and that he's hoping the tech improves in the future.

[W1LLW]

Need to break 52k to get out of the woods.

yea for the 52k
and On binance theres still a lot of buy order in the 40-45 k

edit we could dick around 51xxx-45xxx for a while

Annoying as fuk. I sold half my FTM position earlier today, and was feeling like a mature investor being 50% in cash to buy any extra dips but at this rate I doubt we even break 50k today let alone 52k. Might sell the rest of my FTM and rebuy the inevitable night time dip.

My only reservation is that chinabros might wake up, and run BTC (and consequently alts) upward.

[moosik85]

Alts are screaming up the charts right now. ICX, NEO, GAS, BNB, all greatly outpacing BTC ETH... CAKE up 40%, AUTO 50%, lol. Wish I had been farming more CAKE and AUTO.



I think more and more people are shifting from viewing BTC as possible currency to more of a investment and store of value.

Exactly what I mean.

Bitcoin became what it was because people used it freely as a currency. If it increasingly becomes gobbled up by a handful of mega corps and used as a “store of value” what value does it really have?

I’d say would this and bitcoins value would drop to nothing. But here we are living in a world where the government prints trillions in Monopoly money, hands it to businesses and they buy out all the real assets farms, businesses, patents etc

[chalup]

Annoying as fuk. I sold half my FTM position earlier today, and was feeling like a mature investor being 50% in cash to buy any extra dips but at this rate I doubt we even break 50k today let alone 52k. Might sell the rest of my FTM and rebuy the inevitable night time dip.

sadface XLM doing fuk all as well. I can feel the dip coming.


edit: we got a strong candle coming in. Come on crypto boyos. Break 50k

[dankydank]

Flowbrah is euphoric right now. Weird how it waits until dip is over to moon when it was doing same volume as before. Now sanded to see if OMI brahs were right. That one is already up massively on the year though.

[BestAdc]

Aus brahs best place to buy BTC, gonna load up fuarkkk

[manletofpeace]

Aus brahs best place to buy BTC, gonna load up fuarkkk

I use binance in Aus and have had no issues

[jay1MR]

Aus brahs best place to buy BTC, gonna load up fuarkkk

Just use binance or any website. You don't have to worry AFAIK

[~Hades~]

What’s ada gonna do?

[dunnie]

What’s ada gonna do?

this man.... really tempted to go balls deep in it

and eth , YOU GO GIRL !!!

[~Hades~]

this man.... really tempted to go balls deep in it

and eth , YOU GO GIRL !!!

It held fairly well thru the dip so I expected it to take off today like everything else

[TakeTheLift]

Imagine if the correction to BTC isnt over and we are about to dead cat bounce even lower.

[dunnie]

what price target you guys have set to buy back btc and eth ?

Imagine if the correction to BTC isnt over and we are about to dead cat bounce even lower.

this is still well in the cards, but theres still daily moves too pull through which ever way it goes