How How Important Are Fats For Fat Loss Really? (In regards to minimums)

[IsoUsername]

Just to preface this I don't think fats are evil I just don't actually like fats much anyways.

I've lost roughly 200+ pounds in the last 2 years. All I did was eat 180g of Protein and didn't go above 1500 calories and just followed the "anabolic diet" (like french toast, protein icecream, whatever.) At about ~200-210 I starting getting really weird, (looking back it was signs of fat deficiencies and long term nutrient deficiencies because obviously I've been "starving" for 2 years). Anyways the candle wick burnt out and I hit 225 in 3 weeks in July. I've been yo-yoing at 225-235 since, doing fad stuff like PSMF but mostly "trying to do it correctly" you know, Proper macros, and clean eating.

I just feel like actual dog**** cutting, I want to sleep all the time, constantly depressed, constantly hungry, etc. The only way to feel "sane" in these brief moments is eating an insanely high volume meal until my stomach is physically sick really.
This is typically when I cut fats.

When I try to do it right: I've been trying to do it "right" 195gProtein, 60gFat, ???gCarbs Up to 1700calories (My TDEE Sedentary is 2400 and I am not eating 1200 for 1% loss a week). I still feel tired, only depressed occasionally. But then each meal is super unsatisifying, and I have to take drastic approaches to feel full. (1 gallon of water PER MEAL, 30 minute walks pre-post meal, etc.) I don't get as hungry often, but the meals themselves make me want to binge more. I just removed 1lb of loss this week today over a 2 hour graze.... This is also to note that, I personally never ate fatty food, ever, even at 450 pounds. The idea of high fat is nice of course cause I just wouldn't be hungry all day as I don't enjoy fats, but then I don't look forward to my meals and binge, as well as my protein would be low and my workouts would suck ass. My typical day is a scoop of casein, Yogurt Homemade Cashew/CocoaButter Chicken and TurkeyBacon, Homemade Pancake, and Eggs Chicken and 93/7 Turkey. I have to go out of my way to throw in about 45 grams of fat each day. Which is 405 calories I could just use for carbs or not at all.. My old strategy was eat the same thing for 1 week, and then eat something different for the next, but it wound up being the exact 4 meals until I was medically forced to stop as I passed out driving and almost caused an incident.

I guess my TLDR is: Can I just do what I did that worked? ~1500cals 180-200g of protein, and whatever else I want? Or do I REALLY need 60g of fat? I've upped my fat for only a Week (i know i know) and have felt no noticeable difference. I can just pop an EC Stack and that'll muffle the hunger pangs, as well as eat more throughout the day.

19,M,5'8,~227lbs, xPPLPPx, 15% 2.5 incline 60 minutes 5x a week, and occasional 60 minute bike rides, Sedentary Otherwise <(how many calories does that 5x incline burn you guys think as well?)

Edit: I do take 1.6-2.4g of EPA/DHA a day as thats the "minimum" according to science articles, and I am aware of what happens with low fat, I'm just saying I don't particularly feel a difference anyways.

[desslok]

The “minimums” here are a blanket range with a buffer for “most people”. You could be probably go down to 35ish gm temporarily without really any issues. But of you start noticing some signs you can bring it back up.

[IsoUsername]

The “minimums” here are a blanket range with a buffer for “most people”. You could be probably go down to 35ish gm temporarily without really any issues. But of you start noticing some signs you can bring it back up.

Yeah I was honestly going to go to 45, I know that after <30g I will unironically start developing brain damage. (after 4+ months) Personally I feel like a completely different human cutting anyways, no libido, moody, etc, etc, etc. All the Low T symptoms. Granted my fats been low all this time to. I gotta run a 6 month cut, gotta hit 195 for loose skin surgery then I'll probably "properly cut" to 175 from there. My gW has always been 180 so I put my macros to that. But apparently I have 160-165lbs of LBM? Meaning I'd actually be 18-20% at 195 or something? Which is the goal atm. The ****ty Tanita scans are wrong I know, but this IS rounding down by 5 pounds/5%. I've been lifting with a real program for 1.5 years and Nutrition for 2.5 now. Honestly, I know better, but holy **** does it not work for me man. I think the volume/binge method while terrible for me is my only method atm. But I made a promise to cut that **** out once the cuts over. I know you don't think straight cutting so I just want to minimize randomness.

I downloaded the RP diet for a free trial (just curious) and they said my macros were 195p 60f and 110c ON days, and 50c OFF days. so 1700cals, which was the lowest I planned on going anyways. 1500 kinda sucked but I can make it work (come like month 5,6). I always did 180p, curious on any insights you may have on that one? I'm not a big PROTEIN ALL DAY BRO guy, I'd eat carnivore if I could but I don't think I NEED protein like that you know. Then the cardio I can always just gauge myself, you can't help much on that I believe.

[DougyF7]

Read this:
Calculating Calories and Macros - How To

[IsoUsername]

Yeah I get the minimums. I guess I'm just trying to think I'm different haha. What I mean is I feel the same, even at those minimums vs very low fats. I will say at a certain amount, ~25-30g I do start getting more depressed than normal yeah. But other than that I see no difference in everything else. All my stuff is already shot, libido, drive, etc. So I don't know why I would sacrifice carbs for performance/adherence when if I still feel like **** anyways

[DougyF7]

Yeah I get the minimums. I guess I'm just trying to think I'm different haha. What I mean is I feel the same, even at those minimums vs very low fats. I will say at a certain amount, ~25-30g I do start getting more depressed than normal yeah. But other than that I see no difference in everything else. All my stuff is already shot, libido, drive, etc. So I don't know why I would sacrifice carbs for performance/adherence when if I still feel like **** anyways

Not sure why you would want to eat that low fat if your libido etc. is shot. Fat is was helps promote normal hormone function; improve those things. It wouldn't be hard to add more: peanut butter, olive oil, butter (sparingly), avocado, fish.

[AdamWW]

In terms of literal deficiency, technically all you need to worry about is EFA's, so Omega-6 and Omega-3. The issue here is that we don't actually know the 'minimum' for survival.

You can certainly survive for short periods on VERY VERY low fats without dying from a EFA deficiency, but you won't feel good... similar to how you can survive on basically no food for a while, but you won't feel good either.

You need to find the sweetspot where you're optimizing fat loss while still feeling OK and not risking a deficiency for health's sake.

[IsoUsername]

Not sure why you would want to eat that low fat if your libido etc. is shot. Fat is was helps promote normal hormone function; improve those things. It wouldn't be hard to add more: peanut butter, olive oil, butter (sparingly), avocado, fish.

The reason is simply because I didn't notice a difference on 60g anyways, just more tired. So if I feel no different I don't see why not to just lower it anyways is all. My libido has always been bad since I was morbidly obese anyways so it's not like I've had a working libido yet anyways.

In terms of literal deficiency, technically all you need to worry about is EFA's, so Omega-6 and Omega-3. The issue here is that we don't actually know the 'minimum' for survival.

You can certainly survive for short periods on VERY VERY low fats without dying from a EFA deficiency, but you won't feel good... similar to how you can survive on basically no food for a while, but you won't feel good either.

You need to find the sweetspot where you're optimizing fat loss while still feeling OK and not risking a deficiency for health's sake.

Yeah I read something about 1.6-3.0 grams of EFA/DHA, fish oils have it. I take that much. I felt like **** <30g, so I was gonna drop it to 30g and add from there. It's just a bitch cause I don't like fats. Like I said I have to go out of my way to get them. I was always a lean meat/fish fiend, I can't eat steak with fat on it, I throw up if bone is in meat, etc. Got real sick of PBnJ as a kid and gag at the smell, avocados are good but I have to go out of my way to add that. I can do dairy though....

It seems 45 may be good, I guess I just have to test. I have just been lurking and seen everyone gasping at 45g and to me that seems the highest i'd willingly go. (on a cut) as my TDEE is only 2400~~ so to cut I have to eat 1700 + cardio for 1% a week

[DougyF7]

It seems 45 may be good, I guess I just have to test. I have just been lurking and seen everyone gasping at 45g and to me that seems the highest i'd willingly go. (on a cut) as my TDEE is only 2400~~ so to cut I have to eat 1700 + cardio for 1% a week

If your TDEE is 2400, to cut you only need to drop to like 2000 calories, maybe even a little more.

A more moderate approach will help with the binging and such you've mentioned above.

Read that link I posted a couple times - it's a short read. Not just the part about fat minimums.

[IsoUsername]

If your TDEE is 2400, to cut you only need to drop to like 2000 calories, maybe even a little more.

A more moderate approach will help with the binging and such you've mentioned above.

Read that link I posted a couple times - it's a short read. Not just the part about fat minimums.

Yeah, 200lb lifter is 1-2lbs per week (or .5-1% of their weight). Which is roughly 500-1000 calorie deficit. Realistically I should be doing a 750 deficit but yeah. It's also not hunger/fatigue binges at all, I quite literally just get bored of eating these 5 bite meals. If I had more volume (less fats) I'd have no issue. I don't enjoy the meals I eat at all, and then get bored and just binge eat. If I was full I wouldn't even want to eat, or could stop it knowing I'm about to not be soon.

[Spanishdream]

Yeah, 200lb lifter is 1-2lbs per week (or .5-1% of their weight). Which is roughly 500-1000 calorie deficit. Realistically I should be doing a 750 deficit but yeah. It's also not hunger/fatigue binges at all, I quite literally just get bored of eating these 5 bite meals. If I had more volume (less fats) I'd have no issue. I don't enjoy the meals I eat at all, and then get bored and just binge eat. If I was full I wouldn't even want to eat, or could stop it knowing I'm about to not be soon.

Then you need to eat more interesting things. You seem to be blaming fats assuming because of their higher caloric value than protein and carbs. If you're sick of eating smaller meals, eat large ones. Instead of 5 small meals, eat 2-3 large ones.

[IsoUsername]

Then you need to eat more interesting things. You seem to be blaming fats assuming because of their higher caloric value than protein and carbs. If you're sick of eating smaller meals, eat large ones. Instead of 5 small meals, eat 2-3 large ones.

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No yeah I agree, I thought about it last night. I've been trying to eat 4 meals a day, when when I was first losing as an Obeast, I would 16:8 6 days a week, and full fast on day 7 (this was actually because I thought fasting was good for loose skin) this was roughly 2-3 big meals. Also I used to skip breakfast as an Obeast as well, I would typically eat a 5k calorie lunch, and maybe dinner. So why the **** am I trying to force optimization when I was fasting BEFORE this **** anyways...

I think I'm still gonna drop to 45g (for now) I did notice a possible increase in libido this weekend? Like I said, I've practically only had self induced erections forever, aside from when I had to stop at 285 and was eating like 9oz of cashews just to maintain 2800calories. Ironically, the best adherence I had was 2lbs of chicken and 2oz of cashews a day. But over the course of cutting, I seem to cast **** out like a child with adhd, it's gotta be new new new. But if it ain't broke idk why I try to fix it.

With that said though, I ""genuinely don't like fats"". If you noticed I mentioned cashews twice, that's because I typically have to consciously add fat to my diet. I enjoy a plethora of fats, but I don't typically favor them, and would rather consume protein/carbs. Like I said though idk why I don't just eat more fat because then I wouldn't want to eat as much, but I've been on the volume train recently, but I gotta cut that **** out. I planned on adding Coconut Shavings/Cashew Chunks to my yogurt, if I go back to 60g, I can remove 30g of oats or flour from my pre-workout pancake and add avocado/butter/cheese to my chicken/broccoli bowl (This is my favorite meal, I actually like eating the staple "bodybuilder" meals minus the eggs) For now though, we are moving to 2-3 meals a day, with a pre-morning cardio casein/decaf shake, just cause I fell victim to the "gotta keep protein synthesis going bro" mantra. Cause like I said, I notice I like to eat a BIG meal, and then just forget about food, eating more, seems to make me want more, however that works...

[DougyF7]

https://teddie.com/recipes/

[desslok]

Don’t forget oils. You can add olive oil or other oils that contain a good profile to foods. I usually make my own salad dressings that are olive oil based. I also add sesame oil to
Stir fries etc.

[IsoUsername]

Don’t forget oils. You can add olive oil or other oils that contain a good profile to foods. I usually make my own salad dressings that are olive oil based. I also add sesame oil to
Stir fries etc.

Yeah oils are nice, I could make my own mayonnaise or ranch dressing. Typically when I eat fat I like a "dense" dish, so I'd probably whip up a Peanut Butter Cheesecake Cup with some Toasted Coconut Flakes or Nut Butter Cookies or Melted Cheese/5% Yogurt Dip or something. I could eat that post workout with another meal or make it my breakfast as I'm not really hungry then I guess. Just sucks knowing I can eat 1oz of Cashews, or 1lb of Broccoli, when in 2 hours I'm just going to be thinking about food and hungry again anyways...

[Tommy W.]

If your diet consists of a decent variety of things you'll usually get enough of fat without counting it and stressing over if you're getting enough or not.

[IsoUsername]

If your diet consists of a decent variety of things you'll usually get enough of fat without counting it and stressing over if you're getting enough or not.

Naw I track everything I eat down to the spice so I know my fat is low.

[Tommy W.]

Naw I track everything I eat down to the spice so I know my fat is low.

then your diet may not be that well rounded.

[IsoUsername]

then your diet may not be that well rounded.

Yeah I typically try to eat the same type of meal for each block, so say meal 1 is protein and veggies, 2 is dairy and additives (pb2, black cocoa, etc) and meal 3-4 is some casein creation or more lean meat or dairy. I eat roughly the same 4 foods for 4 different meals. I.E meal1 is turkey, eggwhites, chicken, or tuna with broccolli, brussel sprouts, cauliflower, or carrots. I just, don't ever have room/want to add fats...

[AdamWW]

Naw I track everything I eat down to the spice so I know my fat is low.

Sounds like a fun life

[IsoUsername]

Sounds like a fun life

Honestly... I just remember doing it out of curiosity, and now I just now the grams. I know my decaf is 2 grams per teaspoon and I eat 5g so it's 2.5 cups so it's 5cals, I just put it in there one day cause I was trying to waste time and now I just know the spices/sweeteners I use. I can get a good guess on stuff people give me but I don't really sweat stuff, like I had a 2 fat taquitos today so I just did 6 miles on the bike and called it good.

[IsoUsername]

Err I guess I should ask while it's up. In the original post I mentioned my macros~ish and my stats I'll repost them again, anything seem to be wrong?

Stats
5'8, Male, 19, 225, 27-30% bf (all I know is I have 165 of LBM)

Macros
195p ?c 60f, 1700cals TDEE roughly 2400, I'm not sedentary, but I'm calculating it as sedentary (I do 60minutes of 120~140bpm cardio 5x a day though for an extra 500cals burned for 1% weightloss a week)

and my question was can I drop to 45g of fat, but also used to do 180g of protein and might remove some as well. I used that RP diet app cause there was a free 2 week and I was curious, and that was the macro breakdown, doing my own 1/3 gBW stats that's also roughly the breakdown though..

CGW = 195, UGW = 175, plan on getting to 195 at least, maybe pushing to 185, then after loose skin surgery one day I'll hit 175.

[DougyF7]

Err I guess I should ask while it's up. In the original post I mentioned my macros~ish and my stats I'll repost them again, anything seem to be wrong?

Stats
5'8, Male, 19, 225, 27-30% bf (all I know is I have 165 of LBM)

Macros
195p ?c 60f, 1700cals TDEE roughly 2400, I'm not sedentary, but I'm calculating it as sedentary (I do 60minutes of 120~140bpm cardio 5x a day though for an extra 500cals burned for 1% weightloss a week)

and my question was can I drop to 45g of fat, but also used to do 180g of protein and might remove some as well. I used that RP diet app cause there was a free 2 week and I was curious, and that was the macro breakdown, doing my own 1/3 gBW stats that's also roughly the breakdown though..

CGW = 195, UGW = 175, plan on getting to 195 at least, maybe pushing to 185, then after loose skin surgery one day I'll hit 175.

You really only need 120g protein and at least 70g of fats. Fill in the rest of your calories how you like.

Make sure you're getting enough fiber in your diet, at least around 40g.

Again, your calories are lower than they need to be, especially given the feelings you are experiencing (depression, etc.) and the yoyo dieting you mentioned, so a more modest number would be better, like 2,050 calories.

[GeneralSerpant]

Does your appetite consist of any cravings?

[DougyF7]

Naw I track everything I eat down to the spice

Sounds like a fun life

Colours of the world
Spice up your life
Every boy and every girl
Spice up your life
People of the world
Spice up your life

[IsoUsername]

You really only need 120g protein and at least 70g of fats. Fill in the rest of your calories how you like.

Make sure you're getting enough fiber in your diet, at least around 40g.

Again, your calories are lower than they need to be, especially given the feelings you are experiencing (depression, etc.) and the yoyo dieting you mentioned, so a more modest number would be better, like 2,050 calories.

120? Really? I didn't think it'd be that low... I suppose I can make more fat room then yeah, I'm gonna keep protein a tad higher than that though for satiety reasons, and I just like chicken breast and yogurt a lot.... Yeah, I love fiber, as a former certified 1 wipe member, I really need to start eating more again. I agree my calories are lower than they should, I'll probably up them soon, or today, I'm still losing rapidly so I want all my water weight out before I get a real read and find I've only been losing 0.5 lbs a week or some ****. I just wanna make sure I'm losing 1.5lbs a week at least because I like a buffer just in case (back to my "binge" it was a binge yes, but I did count all the calories in it and it balanced me out to 1lb a week, it was more like being a dumbass and wanting a free/cheat day and not meal...)

Does your appetite consist of any cravings?

Actually no, when I was going crazy hyping myself up for a PSMF, I bought every single micro I'd be missing, I still take them and I haven't had a real craving since, I'm planning on slowly removing them (as they run out) and when the cravings come back, find the food with that in it, or Re-Up my vitamin. The only 3 things on my mind right now are those Hostess Donettes, these Cheese Danish/Bear Claws at the gas station, and the Carb Smart Breyer's Ice Cream. More comfort foods than a craving though, I got them all out when I went crazy on that binge spree after hitting 205. Which is crazy, I never, EVER, ate sweets when I was fat, or drank soda/juice, I was a pizza/burger guy, now? I doesn't even cross my mind... I attribute it to me "beating" those cravings in me, but since I never "beat" the sweet tooth, it's my next thing.

You know how when people with ED's "rebound" and eat everything they ever wanted? That's basically what I did, I'm pretty sure I went crazy from it and binged out, I was passing out and such, simply just poor nutrition knowledge, and going to hard for to long (which I seem to be trying to do again huh?) but I've leveled, I just went back to bad habits that I originally had because the binges lasted roughly a whole month, and then the yo-yoing of LCD's wasn't helping it. Just taking it easy works for me.

[GeneralSerpant]

Actually no, when I was going crazy hyping myself up for a PSMF, I bought every single micro I'd be missing, I still take them and I haven't had a real craving since, I'm planning on slowly removing them (as they run out) and when the cravings come back, find the food with that in it, or Re-Up my vitamin. The only 3 things on my mind right now are those Hostess Donettes, these Cheese Danish/Bear Claws at the gas station, and the Carb Smart Breyer's Ice Cream. More comfort foods than a craving though, I got them all out when I went crazy on that binge spree after hitting 205. Which is crazy, I never, EVER, ate sweets when I was fat, or drank soda/juice, I was a pizza/burger guy, now? I doesn't even cross my mind... I attribute it to me "beating" those cravings in me, but since I never "beat" the sweet tooth, it's my next thing.

You know how when people with ED's "rebound" and eat everything they ever wanted? That's basically what I did, I'm pretty sure I went crazy from it and binged out, I was passing out and such, simply just poor nutrition knowledge, and going to hard for to long (which I seem to be trying to do again huh?) but I've leveled, I just went back to bad habits that I originally had because the binges lasted roughly a whole month, and then the yo-yoing of LCD's wasn't helping it. Just taking it easy works for me.

Interesting. If you're really fat averse in appetite, then I wouldn't really worry about it as long as you're eating what you feel like. Also as stated, omega 3s are the only essential bit, and it is on a micro level. Fat levels might be an issue as far as optimal muscle gain in conjunction with fat loss management, so I'd experiment with it on that basis.

Getting low on fat energy, I'll usually get more of an empty feeling while getting low on blood sugar tends to lead to more tension feelings. I usually pay attention to the lipid profile of what I feel like eating. If it's french fries then I mostly chalk it up to an electrolyte deficiency but I think the grease can have an impact too. Cheese though is a whole different deal.

[IsoUsername]

Interesting. If you're really fat averse in appetite, then I wouldn't really worry about it as long as you're eating what you feel like. Also as stated, omega 3s are the only essential bit, and it is on a micro level. Fat levels might be an issue as far as optimal muscle gain in conjunction with fat loss management, so I'd experiment with it on that basis.

Getting low on fat energy, I'll usually get more of an empty feeling while getting low on blood sugar tends to lead to more tension feelings. I usually pay attention to the lipid profile of what I feel like eating. If it's french fries then I mostly chalk it up to an electrolyte deficiency but I think the grease can have an impact too. Cheese though is a whole different deal.

When you say low on fat gives you an "empty feeling" do you mean like, you feel as if what you eat never seems to be enough? I feel that one, pretty heavily, I can put down pounds of food, I just don't cause well, I can't.

I also think I have a naturally low blood pressure and sugar, I seem to get very light headed when doing long bouts of exercise, or when underfed prior to something labor intensive. I almost feel uncoordinated yet tight like you mentioned.

There are a few cravings I know from first hand I can fix: magnesium , calcium , salt, and sugar to name a few. I know what foods would cause that, but yeah like I said I haven't even had to mess with that since the vitamins. But yeah no, I've never really wanted an egg, pb, avocados, or nuts, and I always ALWAYS used to cut the fat off of steaks/meat, so I just asked my dad to stop cooking them for me, cause he loves that part. Chewy Fats/Bones make me gag though, bad experience as a kid, same with pb and deli meats, maybe that's why ha ha

I'm kind of weird though, exercise NUKES my appetite even though some say it makes them ravenous, stims make me hungry/tired (I don't get wired till about 400-600mg of caffeine in a single dose, even if I'm clean for 30 days), I can eat raw microwaved potatoes by the pound (despite being the "highest satiety food"), I love lean meats, just little weirdo things that don't mean much to name a few. I also eat raw oats uncooked and have binged on them, as a personal name 1 quirky thing about yourself to the class.

[GeneralSerpant]

When you say low on fat gives you an "empty feeling" do you mean like, you feel as if what you eat never seems to be enough? I feel that one, pretty heavily, I can put down pounds of food, I just don't cause well, I can't.

Yes I believe that is the body's response to fat expenditure with lack of lipid consumption.

I also think I have a naturally low blood pressure and sugar, I seem to get very light headed when doing long bouts of exercise, or when underfed prior to something labor intensive. I almost feel uncoordinated yet tight like you mentioned.

The logic as I see it is that your appetite is resting on the neuro satisfaction that carbs give off perpetually from consumption. That's generally not the case with appetizing foods high in fat concentration. In any case, it will sensitize your hunger sensations.

There are a few cravings I know from first hand I can fix: magnesium , calcium , salt, and sugar to name a few. I know what foods would cause that, but yeah like I said I haven't even had to mess with that since the vitamins. But yeah no, I've never really wanted an egg, pb, avocados, or nuts, and I always ALWAYS used to cut the fat off of steaks/meat, so I just asked my dad to stop cooking them for me, cause he loves that part. Chewy Fats/Bones make me gag though, bad experience as a kid, same with pb and deli meats, maybe that's why ha ha

Overall thoughts on either oil and/or butter?

[IsoUsername]

Yes I believe that is the body's response to fat expenditure with lack of lipid consumption.



The logic as I see it is that your appetite is resting on the neuro satisfaction that carbs give off perpetually from consumption. That's generally not the case with appetizing foods high in fat concentration. In any case, it will sensitize your hunger sensations.



Overall thoughts on either oil and/or butter?

Interesting, I've heard that it does cause more hunger satiety, perhaps I haven't given it a fair chance, as it never seems to actually keep me or make me satisfied/full like protein and fiber does. Yes, I probably eat to much and I derive fullness from the actual stretching of my stomach from the carbs volume I agree. Another factor in my can I lower fats is I felt pretty tired on a cut, expected i know, but not when I swapped to more carbs.

I could add butter/oil yes, I was also thinking of simply just adding a homemade cheesecake/fatty dessert for meal 3 and jamming my fat at the end of the day in a huge meal so I don't go hungry before bed. Or just decreasing overall meal frequency so I can have more food when I do eat.