phosphatidic acid

[cumminslifter]

taken everyday or just pre workout?
the studies ive seen state that they took it everyday for 8 weeks. lifting 3 times a week
would you see the same gains just using it pre workout?
thoughts?

[eatyourspinach]

This http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/11/1/29 concluded:

"Oral PA administration is capable of enhancing the anabolic effects of resistance training and contributes to muscle accretion over time"

I'm no expert on the MOA though.

[NewAgeMayan]

How many days per week you train? If its 5+ maybe you could get away with skipping day-off doses...not sure Id personally want to risk jeopardising efficacy myself, though. Especially early on when youre still non-saturated (low frequency dosing may lengthen time-to-saturation); maybe once youre saturated you could get away with low frequency dosing (but how long to saturate...*shrug*)

[TheFugitive]

taken everyday or just pre workout?
the studies ive seen state that they took it everyday for 8 weeks. lifting 3 times a week
would you see the same gains just using it pre workout?
thoughts?

I'm interested to see what type of effects one would notice using PWO on training days only

It will take me sometime to get to this, but I'll give it a shot

[cumminslifter]

How many days per week you train? If its 5+ maybe you could get away with skipping day-off doses...not sure Id personally want to risk jeopardising efficacy myself, though. Especially early on when youre still non-saturated (low frequency dosing may lengthen time-to-saturation); maybe once youre saturated you could get away with low frequency dosing (but how long to saturate...*shrug*)

i run an upper/lower split so i workout 4 days a week usually. sometimes i will throw in an arm and shoulder day on my "off" day

[cumminslifter]

This http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/11/1/29 concluded:

"Oral PA administration is capable of enhancing the anabolic effects of resistance training and contributes to muscle accretion over time"

I'm no expert on the MOA though.

when would you take your dosage on off days then? would you take the full dosage at once or spread throughout the day?

[Terrimonas]

MarcelinoChiles hacked cumminslifter account.... pm'ing mod now

[TheFugitive]

when would you take your dosage on off days then? would you take the full dosage at once or spread throughout the day?

Mix them with your PWO

[kissdadookie]

Dr. Wilson has previously done a study (not published but he has mentioned it a few times) on PA with sedentary people. The PA did nothing basically so physical stimulus is needed for it to work.

Going by that, it's very likely the way supplemental PA works is by converting to LPA which then triggers ERK which leads to mTOR stimulation. This may explain why LPA had similar effects on mTOR as well as PS (PS metabolizes to LPA). So preworkout only dosing probably works as long as you have the adequate physical stimulus.

Cliff notes: Based on how LPA, PS, PA all have similar acute stimulation of mTOR, it's likely supplemented PA is going down the ERK route. Based on a mice study, it appears that during adequate physical stimulus, the enzyme required to convert PS and PA to LPA are present extracellularly but typical this enzyme does not appear extracellularly (thus the physical stimulus is needed for supplemental PA to work). This also explains why it's noted that you don't actually want the PA to easily get incorporated into the phospholipids in the cell membranes as that won't effect ERK the way extracellular PA might. Plus intracellular PA is abundant when you exercise (phospho choline is converted to PA, your can't increase intracellular levels of phospho choline though, it appears to be highly regulated in the body so even if you supplement with phospho choline, it's most likely not going to do what you want it to do).

[TheFugitive]

Dr. Wilson has previously done a study (not published but he has mentioned it a few times) on PA with sedentary people. The PA did nothing basically so physical stimulus is needed for it to work.

Going by that, it's very likely the way supplemental PA works is by converting to LPA which then triggers ERK which leads to mTOR stimulation. This may explain why LPA had similar effects on mTOR as well as PS (PS metabolizes to LPA). So preworkout only dosing probably works as long as you have the adequate physical stimulus.

Cliff notes: Based on how LPA, PS, PA all have similar acute stimulation of mTOR, it's likely supplemented PA is going down the ERK route. Based on a mice study, it appears that during adequate physical stimulus, the enzyme required to convert PS and PA to LPA are present extracellularly but typical this enzyme does not appear extracellularly (thus the physical stimulus is needed for supplemental PA to work). This also explains why it's noted that you don't actually want the PA to easily get incorporated into the phospholipids in the cell membranes as that won't effect ERK the way extracellular PA might. Plus intracellular PA is abundant when you exercise (phospho choline is converted to PA, your can't increase intracellular levels of phospho choline though, it appears to be highly regulated in the body so even if you supplement with phospho choline, it's most likely not going to do what you want it to do).

If one trains hard 4 to 5 days per week, PA taken on training days only should be beneficial

I'll eventually get around to this

[kissdadookie]

I've noticed my cliff notes are longer than the two paragraphs preceding it combined. LoL.

[cumminslifter]

Mix them with your PWO

pre workout on off days?

[cumminslifter]

Dr. Wilson has previously done a study (not published but he has mentioned it a few times) on PA with sedentary people. The PA did nothing basically so physical stimulus is needed for it to work.

Going by that, it's very likely the way supplemental PA works is by converting to LPA which then triggers ERK which leads to mTOR stimulation. This may explain why LPA had similar effects on mTOR as well as PS (PS metabolizes to LPA). So preworkout only dosing probably works as long as you have the adequate physical stimulus.

Cliff notes: Based on how LPA, PS, PA all have similar acute stimulation of mTOR, it's likely supplemented PA is going down the ERK route. Based on a mice study, it appears that during adequate physical stimulus, the enzyme required to convert PS and PA to LPA are present extracellularly but typical this enzyme does not appear extracellularly (thus the physical stimulus is needed for supplemental PA to work). This also explains why it's noted that you don't actually want the PA to easily get incorporated into the phospholipids in the cell membranes as that won't effect ERK the way extracellular PA might. Plus intracellular PA is abundant when you exercise (phospho choline is converted to PA, your can't increase intracellular levels of phospho choline though, it appears to be highly regulated in the body so even if you supplement with phospho choline, it's most likely not going to do what you want it to do).

thats for the info man, anyway to make sure to not have the PA get incorporated into phospholipid membrane?

[eatyourspinach]

when would you take your dosage on off days then? would you take the full dosage at once or spread throughout the day?

Just copypasta from the link "We have previously examined the absorption kinetics of 1.5 g PA and observed an increase in plasma concentration after 30 minutes. PA concentrations appear to plateau between 1 and 3 hours following ingestion while peaking at 3 hours following ingestion. After 7 hours, PA concentrations remained elevated. In addition, LPA demonstrated a bimodal absorption kinetic with plasma concentration peaking at 1 hour, returning to baseline at 2 hours, and peaking again at 3 hours" Which cites http://www.jissn.com/content/10/S1/P22 at it's source. So I'm guessing a single dose would work even though that is based on 1.5g as opposed to the 750mg in King.

[cumminslifter]

ive been dosing about 30min pre^
interesting that it remains elevated for so long. Ive wondered about 1.5g vs 750mg dosage

[MuscleUpCrohns]

Just copypasta from the link "We have previously examined the absorption kinetics of 1.5 g PA and observed an increase in plasma concentration after 30 minutes. PA concentrations appear to plateau between 1 and 3 hours following ingestion while peaking at 3 hours following ingestion. After 7 hours, PA concentrations remained elevated. In addition, LPA demonstrated a bimodal absorption kinetic with plasma concentration peaking at 1 hour, returning to baseline at 2 hours, and peaking again at 3 hours" Which cites http://www.jissn.com/content/10/S1/P22 at it's source. So I'm guessing a single dose would work even though that is based on 1.5g as opposed to the 750mg in King.

Interesting.

Now, with the re-formulated King, TheFugitive says there's still 750mg PA, and this is the label:

So does that mean that there's 750mg PA, and then also a little bit of LPA, PS, etc...?

[kissdadookie]

thats for the info man, anyway to make sure to not have the PA get incorporated into phospholipid membrane?

The stuff doesn't appear to do so in any impactful manner. Iirc, they blocked ERK and lo and behold, the PA didn't increase protein synthesis.
In other words, from what I've looked into, extracellular PA pretty much stays extracellular for the most part.

As mentioned above, PA levels do appear to stay elevated for upwards of 7 hours. This kind of hints at how the stuff doesn't really get absorbed into cells well.

[eatyourspinach]

So does that mean that there's 750mg PA, and then also a little bit of LPA, PS, etc...?

If it is the same price I would say less Niagen, that stuff is pretty expensive.

[NewAgeMayan]

So PA dosnt saturate muscle tissue in the way, say, creatine does? Or even ArA?

[kissdadookie]

So PA dosnt saturate muscle tissue in the way, say, creatine does? Or even ArA?

Doesn't look like it.

To clarify, if PA supplementation was to increase intracellular PA, the study with sedentary people would have shown PA doing something noticeable since intracellular PA iirc acts on mTOR independent from the physical stimulus being present (intracellular PA should mimick what happens when you have physical stimulus). However, we still need physical stimulus for intracellular PA to work because it's the physical stimulus that produces the PA (by using phospho choline), there's very little of it in the phospholipids of muscle cell.

Theoretically if you want to increase intracellular PA, it would make sense to increase phospho choline in the phospholipids of muscle cells to provide substrate for making PA during exercise, but supposedly phospho choline levels are highly regulated so supplementing phospho choline will not increase it in muscle cells the way we would want it to.

[Danes]

ive been dosing about 30min pre^
interesting that it remains elevated for so long. Ive wondered about 1.5g vs 750mg dosage

1,5g <3

[TheFugitive]

pre workout on off days?

Training days only

[Chunkx]

Training days only

interesting

[doucdavr]

1,5g <3

Hey Danes, are you taking 1.5g pa on training days, all pwo and 0.0g on off days?

[TheFugitive]

interesting

How many bottles did you grab?

[cumminslifter]

The stuff doesn't appear to do so in any impactful manner. Iirc, they blocked ERK and lo and behold, the PA didn't increase protein synthesis.
In other words, from what I've looked into, extracellular PA pretty much stays extracellular for the most part.

As mentioned above, PA levels do appear to stay elevated for upwards of 7 hours. This kind of hints at how the stuff doesn't really get absorbed into cells well.

good to know

[TheFugitive]

good to know

I think PA works in harmony with creatine

[Danes]

Hey Danes, are you taking 1.5g pa on training days, all pwo and 0.0g on off days?

I am taking PA everyday

[Chunkx]

How many bottles did you grab?

just one

[cumminslifter]

I am taking PA everyday

you must be rich danes