What do you think of GZCLP?

[xuerebx]

I am currently running Allpro’s routine as per the sticky and have seen some strength gains (as expected from a newbie), mostly neuromuscular rather than size, but I have been on a cut for 12 weeks having lost 4.7kg (~10lbs) so I wasn’t expecting any substantial size gains.

I’d like to move to a more structured beginner’s workout programme soon after I finish my cut and start my first recomp, and have read the ‘manuals’ for Candito Linear, Greyskull LP, GZCLP and Fierce 5 after seeing the names thrown around in some other threads. From the lot I’ve found GZCLP to be the most interesting – varied rep range, AMRAP sets and an interesting progression scheme when stalling. My only concern is that volume seems a bit low (unless you get to the 10 sets x 1 rep I guess, and I understand that you need volume to grow) but I could always add an accessory exercise to the T3 lifts.

I’m after thoughts from the regular members here on GZCLP for a beginner - thanks!

[sooby]

I haven't run the GZCLP program itself but I did run one of the creator's intermediate programs and can at least vouch that it was great and I made gains on it. And at least on paper the structure of the beginner program looks pretty good.

It's hard not to make gains if you are truly in the beginner phase, but if you like AMRAP sets, different rep ranges, U/L split in general that is structured and easy to follow then it sounds like it will probably be a great fit for you overall.


You don't really need a lot of volume as a beginner. Besides, the T2 lifts should probably have you covered if you think it's an issue. IMO if you hard stall on 6x2s or even the 5x3s it's probably time to move on to some different programming provided that nutrition, recovery and sleep are on point. Beginner programs aren't meant to be run for more than a few months but since you were cutting you could probably give it a fair shake for 8-12 weeks and see where you are at then.

If anything, you could do the 10 x 1 sets as part of a giant cluster set. Take 75-80% of your estimated 1 rep max and perform 10 sets of 1, resting anywhere from 10-30 seconds between sets. You can either progress by reducing the rest times or increasing the weight. It should provide you with a different enough stimulus on your muscles to promote growth. I haven't personally tried this myself but there is at least some support for this in scientific literature and anecdotally. Probably sounds like fun too while being moderately difficult. I think this would probably work the best for deadlifts given that you do each rep as explosive as possible but should also be good for the other lifts.

[WolfRose7]

You'd be hard pushed not to do well with it, GZCLP is well written and structured.

[MyEgoProblem]

It's great....

Id put it on par with greyskull.

These two Stand head and shoulder above all the regular novice programs people push. Thoughtfully including Aspects of periodidation and exceptionally well planned. And not just add 5lbs regardless

S tier
Greyskull lp = not the phraks crap=
Gzclp

A tier
(powerlifting to win *)
Bbmed beginner

B tier
Fierce 5
(Candito lp *)

C tier and below
Sl 5x5 / icf
Ss
Allpro
Other crap you find online

(* powerlifting specific focus, they may jump up or doen the list given interest in pl)

[DogletDusk]

It's great....

Id put it on par with greyskull.

These two Stand head and shoulder above all the regular novice programs people push. Thoughtfully including Aspects of periodidation and exceptionally well planned. And not just add 5lbs regardless

S tier
Greyskull lp = not the phraks crap=
Gzclp

A tier
(powerlifting to win *)
Bbmed beginner

B tier
Fierce 5
(Candito lp *)

C tier and below
Sl 5x5 / icf
Ss
Allpro
Other crap you find online

(* powerlifting specific focus, they may jump up or doen the list given interest in pl)

Cheers for the insightful list. I really like greyskulls but what I do like about the phraks version is that it makes vertical/horizontal pulling as main lifts and not just assistance/plug-ins etc., which most beginner routines don’t do. Although as told by wolfrose previously, the phraks version butchers the progression and periodization protocols of the original. What are your thoughts on running the protocols of the original gslp but with the phraks base exercise choice (addition of chin-ups, rows at 2x5, 1x5+)?

[xuerebx]

Thanks all for your comments, looks like it's a step in the right direction. Cody's blog posts were very interesting and definitely knew what he was talking about (although sometimes a bit difficult to follow) - I just wanted some reassurance as unfortunately the GZCLP subreddit is very quiet.

I haven't run the GZCLP program itself but I did run one of the creator's intermediate programs and can at least vouch that it was great and I made gains on it. And at least on paper the structure of the beginner program looks pretty good.

It's hard not to make gains if you are truly in the beginner phase, but if you like AMRAP sets, different rep ranges, U/L split in general that is structured and easy to follow then it sounds like it will probably be a great fit for you overall.


You don't really need a lot of volume as a beginner. Besides, the T2 lifts should probably have you covered if you think it's an issue. IMO if you hard stall on 6x2s or even the 5x3s it's probably time to move on to some different programming provided that nutrition, recovery and sleep are on point. Beginner programs aren't meant to be run for more than a few months but since you were cutting you could probably give it a fair shake for 8-12 weeks and see where you are at then.

If anything, you could do the 10 x 1 sets as part of a giant cluster set. Take 75-80% of your estimated 1 rep max and perform 10 sets of 1, resting anywhere from 10-30 seconds between sets. You can either progress by reducing the rest times or increasing the weight. It should provide you with a different enough stimulus on your muscles to promote growth. I haven't personally tried this myself but there is at least some support for this in scientific literature and anecdotally. Probably sounds like fun too while being moderately difficult. I think this would probably work the best for deadlifts given that you do each rep as explosive as possible but should also be good for the other lifts.

Thanks for your insightful comments! With respect to the last paragraph, do you mean that when I get to 10 sets x 1 rep (due to failing to get the reps under the previous the 6 sets x 2 reps scheme), I could possibly do the 10 sets in quick succession (30s break) at a lower weight to promote sufficient stimulus? Cody on the other hand suggests normal rest time between sets (2-3 mins), but I think I get what you're getting it - I think his method is more strength oriented I guess.

[WolfRose7]

Thanks all for your comments, looks like it's a step in the right direction. Cody's blog posts were very interesting and definitely knew what he was talking about (although sometimes a bit difficult to follow) - I just wanted some reassurance as unfortunately the GZCLP subreddit is very quiet.



Thanks for your insightful comments! With respect to the last paragraph, do you mean that when I get to 10 sets x 1 rep (due to failing to get the reps under the previous the 6 sets x 2 reps scheme), I could possibly do the 10 sets in quick succession (30s break) at a lower weight to promote sufficient stimulus? Cody on the other hand suggests normal rest time between sets (2-3 mins), but I think I get what you're getting it - I think his method is more strength oriented I guess.

I wouldn't go lower rest for singles unless you had specific work capacity goals, or just had to fit it in a short time that day.
Normal rest times would be much more sensible progression wise.

[xuerebx]

I wouldn't go lower rest for singles unless you had specific work capacity goals, or just had to fit it in a short time that day.
Normal rest times would be much more sensible progression wise.

Well my plan is to follow the program as is without any deviations. I'll only start making changes after getting used to how the concept works and then tailoring it for myself - but that's definitely not in the short term. I just want to get my lifts up first, and get bigger (well, the other way round technically).

[MyEgoProblem]

Cody's gzclp is solid to run out of the box, and modify as per his recommendations.

Its why I recommend it so highly and more frequently to greyskull (see below why) xD)

Cheers for the insightful list. I really like greyskulls but what I do like about the phraks version is that it makes vertical/horizontal pulling as main lifts and not just assistance/plug-ins etc., which most beginner routines don’t do. Although as told by wolfrose previously, the phraks version butchers the progression and periodization protocols of the original. What are your thoughts on running the protocols of the original gslp but with the phraks base exercise choice (addition of chin-ups, rows at 2x5, 1x5+)?

The 555+ rows are totally unnecessary to be "brought in line" as phrak suggested.

if you run the base it as recommended with the frequency method/Gtg back work and optional plug ins and dont do as phrak did and remove 80% of the back volume that is recommended.

And the downside of actually amrapping rows, it will certainly affect your squats and deads for a lift that barely matters. Which are Intended to be done last for various reasons.

Ideally people will be doing the recommended frequency method chins and pushups, which makes the rows amraps irrelevant.

Note- rows certainly can be plugged in, and I like them!
Even as far as when I ran gslp I ran Gtg inverted rows over chins. So add rows of you like.

The problem is, no one actually reads the book (which is easy to find) or even knows what it's meant to look like. It can be the best and worst depending who is setting it up and if they have a clue or not. Some people shouldn't be let loose on their own xD

Tldr. Gslp is fully customisable, and is a set of principles or a framework to do as you like.

Phraks is just objectively inferior to every "official" option given or any version I've seen anyone put together who isn't a moron.

[DogletDusk]

Cody's gzclp is solid to run out of the box, and modify as per his recommendations.

Its why I recommend it so highly and more frequently to greyskull (see below why) xD)



The 555+ rows are totally unnecessary to be "brought in line" as phrak suggested.

if you run the base it as recommended with the frequency method/Gtg back work and optional plug ins and dont do as phrak did and remove 80% of the back volume that is recommended.

And the downside of actually amrapping rows, it will certainly affect your squats and deads for a lift that barely matters. Which are Intended to be done last for various reasons.

Ideally people will be doing the recommended frequency method chins and pushups, which makes the rows amraps irrelevant.

Note- rows certainly can be plugged in, and I like them!
Even as far as when I ran gslp I ran Gtg inverted rows over chins. So add rows of you like.

The problem is, no one actually reads the book (which is easy to find) or even knows what it's meant to look like. It can be the best and worst depending who is setting it up and if they have a clue or not.

Tldr. Gslp is fully customisable, and is a set of principles or a framework to do as you like.

Phraks is just objectively inferior to every "official" option given or any version I've seen anyone put together who isn't a moron.

Thanks for taking the time to write that up. I’m in no way saying the phraks version is better or anything, I just liked that upper pulling movements are considered as main lifts. I see what you’re saying about row fatigue affecting squats/deads but I guess you could do rows last to mitigate that issue.

My plan was to follow gslp with the addition of rows and chins as ‘main lifts’ (done after squats and deads), even if that technically isn’t following the program lol. I understand upper pulling is considered in the plug-ins though. I guess I just prefer it if upper pulling had the same treatment as the other main lifts, as opposed to being an optional addition after (if that makes sense).

Thanks again!

[xuerebx]

Cheers for the explanation MyEgoProblem - it's important to understand why a programme is inferior to another (other than reading "it's just crap").

Since I've got this thread up and running, I'm wondering if it's a good idea to substitute pullups or chinups (either/or, or alternating) instead of lat pulldowns for GZCLP? I don't own a cable machine so I can't do lat pulldowns, and the pull/chinups are the closest substitute. I can't do 15 unassisted though, I can only do 6 clean-form reps just bodyweight and maybe 4-5 in the next set, so I'd need some assistance to get to 15 reps for 3 sets (at which point I'd start adding weight).

[sooby]

Thanks all for your comments, looks like it's a step in the right direction. Cody's blog posts were very interesting and definitely knew what he was talking about (although sometimes a bit difficult to follow) - I just wanted some reassurance as unfortunately the GZCLP subreddit is very quiet.



Thanks for your insightful comments! With respect to the last paragraph, do you mean that when I get to 10 sets x 1 rep (due to failing to get the reps under the previous the 6 sets x 2 reps scheme), I could possibly do the 10 sets in quick succession (30s break) at a lower weight to promote sufficient stimulus? Cody on the other hand suggests normal rest time between sets (2-3 mins), but I think I get what you're getting it - I think his method is more strength oriented I guess.

It was just more of a suggestion/idea for an alternative if it was something you didn't want to do or stick to.

Cheers for the explanation MyEgoProblem - it's important to understand why a programme is inferior to another (other than reading "it's just crap").

Since I've got this thread up and running, I'm wondering if it's a good idea to substitute pullups or chinups (either/or, or alternating) instead of lat pulldowns for GZCLP? I don't own a cable machine so I can't do lat pulldowns, and the pull/chinups are the closest substitute. I can't do 15 unassisted though, I can only do 6 clean-form reps just bodyweight and maybe 4-5 in the next set, so I'd need some assistance to get to 15 reps for 3 sets (at which point I'd start adding weight).

Pullups/chinups should be fine. You don't really have a choice anyways so make do with what you have. 3 sets of clean pullups/chins should be fine (call the set when your reps get sloppy or just before). For more volume, if you have a band you could do banded chins for sets of 15. Or just do chins/pullups through out the day (GTG method). Bands you could do some interesting back exercises with too, i.e: a lat pulldown with your body hinged close to 90 degrees like pendlay row, just attach a band to your door knob or something and pull. They're easy to recover from so technically you could push the volume on any vertical pulls in general, I'd just try to steer clear of any overuse type pains and aches like the elbows and trying to do too much too quickly if you went that route.

[xuerebx]

It was just more of a suggestion/idea for an alternative if it was something you didn't want to do or stick to.

I don't mind 10 sets of 1 rep. Something completely new to me but the idea that it helps you focus on your form under heavy (relatively speaking of course) weight is conceptually sound and makes a lot of sense.

Pullups/chinups should be fine. You don't really have a choice anyways so make do with what you have. 3 sets of clean pullups/chins should be fine (call the set when your reps get sloppy or just before). For more volume, if you have a band you could do banded chins for sets of 15. Or just do chins/pullups through out the day (GTG method). Bands you could do some interesting back exercises with too, i.e: a lat pulldown with your body hinged close to 90 degrees like pendlay row, just attach a band to your door knob or something and pull. They're easy to recover from so technically you could push the volume on any vertical pulls in general, I'd just try to steer clear of any overuse type pains and aches like the elbows and trying to do too much too quickly if you went that route.

So my sets could be 6/4/3 i.e. 13 reps total vs. 45 reps, until the time comes when I am able to do 3 sets of 15 clean reps and then start doing them weighted -technically my last set should hit 25 reps before I can add weight, but how realistic is that?!

Regarding bands, I don't own one but if this is what you're referring to I can easily purchase one. I guess they would help me finish the set - although I'm not sure how much of that will transfer to regular pullup strength. We'll see I guess!

[sooby]

I don't mind 10 sets of 1 rep. Something completely new to me but the idea that it helps you focus on your form under heavy (relatively speaking of course) weight is conceptually sound and makes a lot of sense.



So my sets could be 6/4/3 i.e. 13 reps total vs. 45 reps, until the time comes when I am able to do 3 sets of 15 clean reps and then start doing them weighted -technically my last set should hit 25 reps before I can add weight, but how realistic is that?!

Regarding bands, I don't own one but if this is what you're referring to I can easily purchase one. I guess they would help me finish the set - although I'm not sure how much of that will transfer to regular pullup strength. We'll see I guess!

Well again you kinda have to make due with what you have, but there are other suggestions that I have mentioned. Banded pullups will absolutely have carryover to pullup strength. I'm sure there are other variations that are easier that you can look up as well. Doing 3 sets of 15 pullups probably not realistic for most beginners but I think you are just overthinking things too much here.

If you care more about pullup strength IME lat pulldowns don't have the greatest carryover. You're pulling down a weight supported/anchored by a machine versus pulling yourself up using your own bodyweight. Pullups are highly dependent on BW as well as practice/skill and perhaps recruitment of other smaller muscles/core. If you can only do a few pullups, don't really care for doing pullups and just want to train your lats then yes a lat pulldown is preferable. But it seems like to me you care about being able to do more pullups. The best way to get better at pullups is to simply do pullups, or if you can't get any meaningful volume out of them, use a close variation such as a banded pullup. GTG as mentioned is legit as well.

I'd definitely recommend maybe 3 bands with different resistances if not for the versatility they can bring to a home gym/workout but if money is an issue they aren't absolutely necessary. You could probably get a few for $50-60

[xuerebx]

Thanks a lot for all your advice and recommendations - much appreciated!!! I'll be sure to buy a couple resistance bands - looking forward to the assisted pull-ups