M1T Safety (Patrick Arnold, Seth Roberts, etc.)

[El Dudereno]

Bruce - sorry to barge in like this. I haven't actually read the rest of the thread so didn't know if this had been covered before.

It was Designer Supps who told me this as I was asking them about a vial of 1-Test cyp I have.

If that's not the case then what action does 1-test have on the progesterone receptor? The estrogen receptor?

I personally did get sore nipples around about week 5 of a 6 week M1T cycle I did, so how is that possible? Can the male body actually produce estrogen? Only by test aromatising - that was my understanding. Since I was on M1T, I didn't have any test so what gives?!

EDIT: lakevillethor - in that instance I used 20mg Nolva and it DID cure the problem.

I just want to know why/how when the big thing for 1-test/M1T etc for a lot of people is that they don't think they have to worry about estrogen, when the experiences of some (inc. myself) is that they blatantly DO.

[brucekneller]

Originally posted by lakevillethor1
If you have me on tris and delts I am very impressed. Those are my strongest lifts.
-AT

You're probably stronger than I am now since I am down from 220ish to just a wee bit under 200ish. And I am taller than you 5'9".

I do BHN militaries with 135 then 185 and then 225 (albeit for maybe 4 good reps and 2 "cheaters" for the negative value).
I don't do a lot of dumbell presses for shoulders. I'm only using 15-20's for the lateral raises but it's a slow count, perfect form and I do it to absolute failure. I also do weighted dips with an emphasis on keeping my elbows out and body as vertical as possible with a 90# DB (used to go as high as 135# when I was heavier stronger). I think this in an under rated and excellent exersize for the delts and back and lateral aspect of the triceps.

As for tri's forget it :-) That and chest are my strongest body parts. I'm still hitting 275 on the incline for 6-7 reps easily and I do insufferable amounts of cable press downs, supine, pronated, neutral grip with both hands and then singularly. I've also noticed that making a triange with your thumb and forefinger, centering it maybe 2"-3" just above the manubrium and doing slow push ups is a REAL croaker.

Forget legs...I'm a turnip and it is not because I do not do legs either, they just do not respond well. I can squat until the cows come home and forget it...little gains although for some reaons, the calves look pretty good and I hardly train them.

Let's not talk about the midriff. I can have a 34" waist and a six pack. I'm just thick (in the head also some might say).

I'm better suited for power lifting, I know this. But at 36, I am trying to stay between 200-210# MAX and get my BF to under 6% consistently. I'm not going to ever compete. Aside from the fact that I have a full sleeve of tattoos on my left arm, shoulder and back, I'm just not interested in it.

Wait until you hit 30...your priorities change quite a bit.

Good luck Andrew.

BK

[brucekneller]

Originally posted by El Dudereno
Bruce - sorry to barge in like this. I haven't actually read the rest of the thread so didn't know if this had been covered before.

It was Designer Supps who told me this as I was asking them about a vial of 1-Test cyp I have.

If that's not the case then what action does 1-test have on the progesterone receptor? The estrogen receptor?

I personally did get sore nipples around about week 5 of a 6 week M1T cycle I did, so how is that possible? Can the male body actually produce estrogen? Only by test aromatising - that was my understanding. Since I was on M1T, I didn't have any test so what gives?!

EDIT: lakevillethor - in that instance I used 20mg Nolva and it DID cure the problem.

I just want to know why/how when the big thing for 1-test/M1T etc for a lot of people is that they don't think they have to worry about estrogen, when the experiences of some (inc. myself) is that they blatantly DO.

It might but I have not heard of many people getting gyno from M1T. If Nolva cured it, it ain't progesterone, it is estrogen.

I'm clueless on this one, maybe PA or Seth can provide you with a good answer other than wild speculation by me.

BK

[lakevillethor1]

Originally posted by bruce*******
You're probably stronger than I am now since I am down from 220ish to just a wee bit under 200ish. And I am taller than you 5'9".

I do BHN militaries with 135 then 185 and then 225 (albeit for maybe 4 good reps and 2 "cheaters" for the negative value).
I don't do a lot of dumbell presses for shoulders. I'm only using 15-20's for the lateral raises but it's a slow count, perfect form and I do it to absolute failure. I also do weighted dips with an emphasis on keeping my elbows out and body as vertical as possible with a 90# DB (used to go as high as 135# when I was heavier stronger). I think this in an under rated and excellent exersize for the delts and back and lateral aspect of the triceps.

As for tri's forget it :-) That and chest are my strongest body parts. I'm still hitting 275 on the incline for 6-7 reps easily and I do insufferable amounts of cable press downs, supine, pronated, neutral grip with both hands and then singularly. I've also noticed that making a triange with your thumb and forefinger, centering it maybe 2"-3" just above the manubrium and doing slow push ups is a REAL croaker.

Forget legs...I'm a turnip and it is not because I do not do legs either, they just do not respond well. I can squat until the cows come home and forget it...little gains although for some reaons, the calves look pretty good and I hardly train them.

Let's not talk about the midriff. I can have a 34" waist and a six pack. I'm just thick (in the head also some might say).

I'm better suited for power lifting, I know this. But at 36, I am trying to stay between 200-210# MAX and get my BF to under 6% consistently. I'm not going to ever compete. Aside from the fact that I have a full sleeve of tattoos on my left arm, shoulder and back, I'm just not interested in it.

Wait until you hit 30...your priorities change quite a bit.

Good luck Andrew.

BK

Those are good stats for an old ****er. No, dogg, I understand completely. My priorities are already changing as I started my own business. Nonetheless, being short has its advantages. This week, at 184 pounds, I did 315 for 9 on incline (that's freeweight incline BTW --- I had some joker tell me he could do 225 on incline the other day who was in high school -- later that week I saw him and he had 2 45's on each side of the smith machine). My skeletal frame is just built for upperbody pressing motions. My legs and back are much weaker by comparison. I think you were right about back though -- it just kills my lower back to do bent over rows. my back is my weakest area.
-AT

[Seth Roberts]

I would not doubt that some of the very cheap M-1-T that is being sold is in fact methyltestosterone.

[cpa5oh]

Originally posted by bruce*******
It might but I have not heard of many people getting gyno from M1T. If Nolva cured it, it ain't progesterone, it is estrogen.

I'm clueless on this one, maybe PA or Seth can provide you with a good answer other than wild speculation by me.

BK

I thought I had read that without estrogen being present progesterone would NOT cause gyno.

If you kind of look at that in reverse, using Nolvadex to block estrogen could render progesterone ineffective.

I'm FAR from an expert...more like a tool when it comes to this...but for some reason this has stuck in my head as having been something I read over and over again (on other boards I think.)

[DRACOMACHINE]

Originally posted by El Dudereno


It was Designer Supps who told me this as I was asking them about a vial of 1-Test cyp I have.

I never had a problem with the cyp's. IMO the cyp's give most people exactly what they are looking for. Gets the product into the body, gains, and no bloat. Problems that designer had was, an occasional too high BA in the batch. And or sending 4-AD cyp instead of 1-T cyp, but that worked out to my favor, leaving me with one big bottle of 1-T cyp and 1 big bottle of 4-AD cyp.

If people were not so scared of injecting, they would see the cyps are a good product.

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by bruce*******
Would you run 100mg of Dianabol per day (as safe as other C17AA'ed steroids) or 100mg of Halotestin per day?

So what is the point you're making?


BK

100mg of dbol is not unusual

100mg of halo is

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by lakevillethor1
Aside from that, nolva will do nothing about the progestational effects of the compound. It only bonds weakly to the ER (I may be wrong about this).

a guy i know took 200mg of oral progesterone a day along with androgens and his gyno did not get aggravated at all really

I think that people may be misled on this progesterone related gyno theory

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by El Dudereno
Bruce - sorry to barge in like this. I haven't actually read the rest of the thread so didn't know if this had been covered before.

It was Designer Supps who told me this as I was asking them about a vial of 1-Test cyp I have.

If that's not the case then what action does 1-test have on the progesterone receptor? The estrogen receptor?

I personally did get sore nipples around about week 5 of a 6 week M1T cycle I did, so how is that possible? Can the male body actually produce estrogen? Only by test aromatising - that was my understanding. Since I was on M1T, I didn't have any test so what gives?!

EDIT: lakevillethor - in that instance I used 20mg Nolva and it DID cure the problem.

I just want to know why/how when the big thing for 1-test/M1T etc for a lot of people is that they don't think they have to worry about estrogen, when the experiences of some (inc. myself) is that they blatantly DO.

gynecomastia is not fully understood. there may be many things that can aggravate it beyond just female hormones. growth factors such as IGF-1 can make it grow. some of these growth factors may be influenced by certain androgens themselves

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by Seth Roberts
I would not doubt that some of the very cheap M-1-T that is being sold is in fact methyltestosterone.

if it were methyltestosterone then they would not be getting much gains from it, or side effects either, at 10-30mg a day.


one simple test can indicate pretty well what it is - if the dose burns your tongue then its probably M1T and certainly not Methyltest

[flexster]

A few months back, I took 20mgs ed for 12days then bumped it up to 30mgs ed for another 12 days. Its kinda odd but I didnt gain anymore weight after that first 12 days. The only thing bad I experienced was a raising of the blood pressure and I could feel my heart all of a sudden start racing. That is a weird feeling. I guess I was somewhat lucky concidering that some people that took that much and it damn near killed them.

[Romac]

Originally posted by flexster
A few months back, I took 20mgs ed for 12days then bumped it up to 30mgs ed for another 12 days. Its kinda odd but I didnt gain anymore weight after that first 12 days. The only thing bad I experienced was a raising of the blood pressure and I could feel my heart all of a sudden start racing. That is a weird feeling. I guess I was somewhat lucky concidering that some people that took that much and it damn near killed them.

i just read an article in the new md regarding a guy that tried all kinds of different steroid stacks and after the 1st 2 weeks they stopped working.

I think the regular monthly column is called "building the perfect beast" and the phd writing the column outlined a cycle that should overcome the 2-week shutdown.

idk if this is the same thing that happened to you. I'm just mentioning it for interest's sake

[BigSwole190]

Originally posted by Patrick Arnold
one simple test can indicate pretty well what it is - if the dose burns your tongue then its probably M1T and certainly not Methyltest

burns your tongue? I have done 2 cycles myself, and about to start a third all of which where 1-Test/4-AD transdermal.

I actually just recievied my M1T today. Now im having doubts of taking it.

[Bobo]

Originally posted by Patrick Arnold
gynecomastia is not fully understood. there may be many things that can aggravate it beyond just female hormones. growth factors such as IGF-1 can make it grow. some of these growth factors may be influenced by certain androgens themselves

Thank you.

"Progesterone enhances estrogen's stimulation of mammary gland growth, and our findings suggest that progesterone may play a role in the gynecomastia that occurs in men with hyperthyroidism. (2)

This is all we are saying: progesterone/progestins themselves are not capable of causing gyno (study 1), but enhance the action of estrogen, which is typically elevated in hyperthyroidism (study 2). "

1) Gut. 1982 Apr;23(4):276-9.

Progesterone, prolactin, and gynaecomastia in men with liver disease.

Farthing MJ, Green JR, Edwards CR, Dawson AM.


(2) J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1988 Jan;66(1):230-2.

High serum progesterone in hyperthyroid men with Graves' disease.

Nomura K, Suzuki H, Saji M, Horiba N, Ujihara M, Tsushima T, Demura H, Shizume K


Here is another little read:

http://www.endotext.org/male/male14/male14.htm

[Bobo]

Originally posted by bruce*******
It might but I have not heard of many people getting gyno from M1T. If Nolva cured it, it ain't progesterone, it is estrogen.

I'm clueless on this one, maybe PA or Seth can provide you with a good answer other than wild speculation by me.

BK

Progesteron and/or Prolactin contribute to the formation when estrogen is present. Block the receptors using a SERM and most likely the formation will cease.

As Pat said, other factors such as GH and IGF-1, along with estrogen seems to be the biggest contributors. Prolcatin is less likely to cause the problem ebcause in general androgens (exogenous) reduce prolactin while endogenous estrogen increases it.

Prolactin secretion in the human male is increased by endogenous oestrogens and decreased by exogenous/endogenous androgens.

Gooren LJ, van der Veen EA, van Kessel H, Harmsen-Louman W, Wiegel AR.

There is evidence that prolactin may be involved in testicular steroidogenesis, and we have therefore investigated whether there is feedback regulation of androgens/oestrogens on prolactin secretion in the human male. To assess this we have measured basal and TRH-stimulated prolactin levels in: Six eugonadal men before and after 2 weeks' administration of the aromatase inhibitor delta'-testolactone, which led to a fall in oestradiol levels with unchanged levels of testosterone. In these patients, prolactin levels decreased. Six eugonadal subjects before and after 6 weeks' administration of dihydrotestosterone undecanoate. In these subjects, prolactin levels decreased. Six agonadal subjects, tested after 12 weeks' treatment with dihydrotestosterone undecanoate and compared to: Six agonadal subjects who received no sex steroid treatment. Again, it was found that dihydrotestosterone treatment decreased prolactin levels in patients from Group C. Six eugonadal subjects were also studied before and after 6 weeks' administration of the androgen receptor antagonist, spironolactone, and this treatment increased Prl secretion. It is concluded that in the human male, endogenous oestrogens increase prolactin secretion whilst exogenous/endogenous androgens decrease prolactin secretion.

[kj2833]

Originally posted by Bobo
Thank you.

"Progesterone enhances estrogen's stimulation of mammary gland growth, and our findings suggest that progesterone may play a role in the gynecomastia that occurs in men with hyperthyroidism. (2)

This is all we are saying: progesterone/progestins themselves are not capable of causing gyno (study 1), but enhance the action of estrogen, which is typically elevated in hyperthyroidism (study 2). "

ive been saying this for a while. people have been accusing m1t of causing progesterone when they get gyno.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hreadid=300269

[Bobo]

Its an old arguement.

[El Dudereno]

Originally posted by kj2833
ive been saying this for a while. people have been accusing m1t of causing progesterone when they get gyno.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hreadid=300269

OK fine, but the question still remains - HOW does M1T cause gyno then? Does it increase GH or IGF-1? And from what I gather estrogen still must be present in all cases for gyno to occur, so WHERE does the estrogen come from? Certainly not from the M1T, if what we're told is true. Other than that, how does the human male produce estrogen other than via aromatase?

[kj2833]

Originally posted by El Dudereno
OK fine, but the question still remains - HOW does M1T cause gyno then? Does it increase GH or IGF-1? And from what I gather estrogen still must be present in all cases for gyno to occur, so WHERE does the estrogen come from? Certainly not from the M1T, if what we're told is true. Other than that, how does the human male produce estrogen other than via aromatase?

Um your body can produce estrogen. It does this whenever it feels hormone levels have increased. estrogen and testosterone live in balance. there is a ratio of one to the other. when one goes up guess what happens? estrogen will increase to balance it out.

this is basic endocrinology.

[El Dudereno]

Originally posted by kj2833
Um your body can produce estrogen. It does this whenever it feels hormone levels have increased. estrogen and testosterone live in balance. there is a ratio of one to the other. when one goes up guess what happens? estrogen will increase to balance it out.

this is basic endocrinology.

Thankyou! A simple answer that years of trawling through endless M1T threads simply wouldn't yield.

[Bobo]

Originally posted by El Dudereno
OK fine, but the question still remains - HOW does M1T cause gyno then? Does it increase GH or IGF-1?

Most androgens do increase IGF-1. You can't factually answer a question about a substance that has zero clinical data published. You can only speculate. From most reported cases of gyno, whatever the cause, tamoxifen is your best bet.

[kj2833]

Originally posted by Bobo
Most androgens do increase IGF-1. You can't factually answer a question about a substance that has zero clinical data published. You can only speculate. From most reported cases of gyno, whatever the cause, tamoxifen is your best bet.

exactly, One other thing to think about. again this is just my theory it could be total bs, but just because the exact m1t compound doesnt aromatize, what happens as its being broken down and used by the body. I mean its recognized as a hormone or you wouldnt build muscle on it. there has to be a negative reaction to it somewhere in the chain.

[El Dudereno]

Originally posted by Bobo
Most androgens do increase IGF-1. You can't factually answer a question about a substance that has zero clinical data published. You can only speculate. From most reported cases of gyno, whatever the cause, tamoxifen is your best bet.

Thankyou to you too, Bobo. Re: jk2833's response above, could you shed some light on how males produce estrogen? I'm just curious, because as I said I thought the only method was through the aromatase enzyme. Do the adrenal glands produce it? Do the testes produce it?

[kj2833]

Originally posted by El Dudereno
Thankyou to you too, Bobo. Re: jk2833's response above, could you shed some light on how males produce estrogen? I'm just curious, because as I said I thought the only method was through the aromatase enzyme. Do the adrenal glands produce it? Do the testes produce it?

look above your post, i seen this question coming

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by El Dudereno
OK fine, but the question still remains - HOW does M1T cause gyno then? Does it increase GH or IGF-1? And from what I gather estrogen still must be present in all cases for gyno to occur, so WHERE does the estrogen come from? Certainly not from the M1T, if what we're told is true. Other than that, how does the human male produce estrogen other than via aromatase?

all estrogen is produced from the aromatization of androgenic precursors (testosterone or androstenedione)

we don't know why M-1-T or some other steroids that are not expected to still cause gyno

just accept the fact that we do not know

[kj2833]

Originally posted by Patrick Arnold
all estrogen is produced from the aromatization of androgenic precursors (testosterone or androstenedione)

we don't know why M-1-T or some other steroids that are not expected to still cause gyno

just accept the fact that we do not know

it could just activate circulating estrogen also.


Distribution of ERs and aromatase in the male reproductive system

ERs and the aromatase enzyme are widely expressed in the male reproductive tract in both animals and humans, implying that estrogen biosynthesis occurs in the male reproductive tract and that both locally produced and circulating estrogens may interact with ERs in an intracrine/paracrine and/or endocrine fashion (12). The concept of a key estrogen action in the male reproductive tract is strongly supported by the fact that male reproductive structures are able to produce and respond to estrogens (13). Here we summarize the distribution of both ERs and aromatase in the male reproductive tract of both animals and humans, accounting also for different developmental stages of maturation since both ERs and aromatase are widely expressed at all stages of testicular development (at least in rodents).

http://www.endotext.org/male/male17/maleframe17.htm

[El Dudereno]

Something else that may be way off track - could it be because M1T is methylated? I read somewhere (I think it might of been Big Cat's steroid profile) that Dbol aromatises so heavily because it is methylated. Could the same be true in a lesser fashion for M1T?

[gregxy]

Maybe M1T can activate estrogen receptors directly?

Testosterone and Estrogen molecules are quite similar.
I would think it would be possible for test to activate
estrogen receptors to a limited extent and vise-versa.
Moving the double bond from the 4 to the 1 position many
also make M1T more "estrogen like". The 17 methyl group
also seems to increase the estrogen activity. Flooding the
body with unnaturally large concentrations of hormones
exaggerates the effect.

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by El Dudereno
Thankyou to you too, Bobo. Re: jk2833's response above, could you shed some light on how males produce estrogen? I'm just curious, because as I said I thought the only method was through the aromatase enzyme. Do the adrenal glands produce it? Do the testes produce it?

yes, it is produced in the adrenals and the testes. And in dozens of other tissues in the body

and in each case it is produced by the action of aromatase on testosterone or androstenedione

in the adrenals it is produced by adrenal aromatase

in the testes, by testicular aromatase

and blah blah etc