Not progressing whatsoever with Fierce 5 as a beginner after 2-3 months.

[Bremster1]

Okay so Ive heard your input and am trying to get to 3500 kcals. However, I am not able to get this from just veggies and whole foods - I am simply not hungry enough, and they fill me up too fast. Im ensuring I hit my minimum fat and protein, and eating 200g of fruits and some veggies daily, but Im eating fatty foods such as salami, choclate milk, pistache nuts, to reach enough kcal since I struggle with eating this many kcals. The whole cardio discussion aside, will this affect my body very negatively? Is this what you would call a dirty bulk? I do roughly keep my kcals in check and not simply eat as much as I can without putting thought into it (even if I did, my appetite is super capped at 3500 kcal), but it is mainly fats...

[safcpaul]

Okay so Ive heard your input and am trying to get to 3500 kcals. However, I am not able to get this from just veggies and whole foods - I am simply not hungry enough, and they fill me up too fast. Im ensuring I hit my minimum fat and protein, and eating 200g of fruits and some veggies daily, but Im eating fatty foods such as salami, choclate milk, pistache nuts, to reach enough kcal since I struggle with eating this many kcals. The whole cardio discussion aside, will this affect my body very negatively? Is this what you would call a dirty bulk? I do roughly keep my kcals in check and not simply eat as much as I can without putting thought into it (even if I did, my appetite is super capped at 3500 kcal), but it is mainly fats...

Nothing wrong with salami nuts and chocolate milk. A dirty bulk is when you eat in a massive surplus of calories. It has nothing to do with what foods you choose. Get out of the mindset of having to eat only these 'clean foods'.

[mtnmama]

hate to beat a dead horse (and really that's sick - you shouldnt even beat a live one) BUT......

again - do you use a kitchen scale to WEIGH your food and also track all of your beverages - everything you are going to swallow?

have you used the stickies or a tdee calc to get a good handle on what you need to consume in order to eat maintenance and what an actual surplus would be for you?

if you arent actually aware of the true amount you consume - you could simply be under-eating for you - most people under/over estimate - and without having actual weights of food (not a cup, teaspoon, handful) you cant know what you are consuming, unless you only eat prepackaged and the labels are all *truthful* all of the time.

this could be an easy fix if you just need to eat more - unless you really cant manage to eat enough to grow....

and when you mentioned your average intake before - you said: "Ive kept my nutrition in check, and consistently eat between 2500 to 3200 kcal a day. My average fats are around 95g, protein around 140g, carbs 180g"

thats only 2135 calories....

also - imo - the cardio discussion matters - since you could be doing too much and causing muscle wasting...which means not growing....some people can do hours of cardio/day and still grow - but they are eating enough to overcome what the cardio uses

[coachcalande]

There’s a theme on the forum…look around


Guys who are not eating are not growing. You cannot be a bear if you eat like a rabbit.

[mtnmama]

there’s a theme on the forum…look around


guys who are not eating are not growing. You cannot be a bear if you eat like a rabbit.

thisssssssssssss

[paulinkansas]

You cannot be a bear if you eat like a rabbit.

You should make that your sig.

[michaelm700]

Dear,

I am becoming increasingly frustrated by working out, because for some reason I am simply not getting stronger. As adviced by an earlier post on this forum, I have stuck with the Fierce 5 routine since the end of June. I took a break halfway through because I went on vacation for 2 weeks, although I did do some pushups, pull ups, planks and a lot of walking. After this I figured I would do a "reset" because even before that vacation, I wasn't really progressing. I picked up again, resetting, starting the 1st of August, and after 2 weeks I was back to my previous numbers.

The Fierce 5 program advices increments of 5lbs upper and 10 lbs lower weekly. I think over the course of 2-3 months, I have gained maybe a total of 5 lbs upper and 10 lbs lower: more than that I simply cannot lift. I cannot figure out why. Some numbers of my progress, over 2-3 months:

bench press 45 kg --> 50 kg
squat 50 --> 55
pendlay row 30 --> 32
front squat 30 --> 40
overhead lift: 20 --> 25

Ive kept my nutrition in check, and consistently eat between 2500 to 3200 kcal a day. My average fats are around 95g, protein around 140g, carbs 180g. I am 188cm & 77kg.

I have also attached pictures of 2,5months ago and today. Everywhere online I read about the "noob gains" you should supposedly get when starting out, meanwhile I am getting literally no gains. At the same time, I have more belly fat than I've ever had before. I know you automatically gain fat when you build muscle, but its not translating back to increased strength/muscle it seems. Could this be a problem with testosterone? Can someone please give me some advice as to what is wrong with me? All advice is appreciated!

Kind regards,
Bremster1

I too was a hard gainer and plateaued. I couldn't gain weight or strength no matter what past a certain point. Take high bioavailability protein and eat a meal within 45 minutes after workout. Your body chemistry changes during this window enhancing the uptake and use of protein. I did this and ended plateauing for good. Gain after that was based solely on effort.

[Bremster1]

hate to beat a dead horse (and really that's sick - you shouldnt even beat a live one) BUT......

again - do you use a kitchen scale to WEIGH your food and also track all of your beverages - everything you are going to swallow?

have you used the stickies or a tdee calc to get a good handle on what you need to consume in order to eat maintenance and what an actual surplus would be for you?

if you arent actually aware of the true amount you consume - you could simply be under-eating for you - most people under/over estimate - and without having actual weights of food (not a cup, teaspoon, handful) you cant know what you are consuming, unless you only eat prepackaged and the labels are all *truthful* all of the time.

this could be an easy fix if you just need to eat more - unless you really cant manage to eat enough to grow....

and when you mentioned your average intake before - you said: "Ive kept my nutrition in check, and consistently eat between 2500 to 3200 kcal a day. My average fats are around 95g, protein around 140g, carbs 180g"

thats only 2135 calories....

also - imo - the cardio discussion matters - since you could be doing too much and causing muscle wasting...which means not growing....some people can do hours of cardio/day and still grow - but they are eating enough to overcome what the cardio uses

Thank you for your input. youre right, theyre only up to 2100 kcal - this is because I took the average from the app I use, in which I usually dont fill in my dinner and hence only put in around 2k kcals.

Youre also right that its probably that im not eating enough. It wont be feasible to measure every dinner since my mom cooks and I dont have time to micro manage exactly what she puts in. Nonetheless my appetite is a good enough indicator for only dinner, and it usually sits at around 600-700 kcal. (I measure everything else I eat throughout the day with a scale). I have, as of this thread, begun eating a 4th time and snacking after dinner, hopefully I will start getting stronger soon.

I barely do cardio. I bike 20 mins a day at most, and other than that I have a mostly sedentary lifestyle

[coachcalande]

Thank you for your input. youre right, theyre only up to 2100 kcal - this is because I took the average from the app I use, in which I usually dont fill in my dinner and hence only put in around 2k kcals.

Youre also right that its probably that im not eating enough. It wont be feasible to measure every dinner since my mom cooks and I dont have time to micro manage exactly what she puts in. Nonetheless my appetite is a good enough indicator for only dinner, and it usually sits at around 600-700 kcal. (I measure everything else I eat throughout the day with a scale). I have, as of this thread, begun eating a 4th time and snacking after dinner, hopefully I will start getting stronger soon.

I barely do cardio. I bike 20 mins a day at most, and other than that I have a mostly sedentary lifestyle

I don’t have any way to really track cals on the dinners my bride makes- always too fancy…but Id measure it by number of plates and on average probably 800-900 cals per plate.

[mtnmama]

Thank you for your input....

I have, as of this thread, begun eating a 4th time and snacking after dinner, hopefully I will start getting stronger soon.

I barely do cardio. I bike 20 mins a day at most, and other than that I have a mostly sedentary lifestyle

sounds like you are really figuring it out - glad to hear you are making progress. i hope that you will check back in and let us know how you go, eh?

[Bremster1]

sounds like you are really figuring it out - glad to hear you are making progress. i hope that you will check back in and let us know how you go, eh?

Well, I think today was the first time I looked at my body and thought to myself damn, I have grown. Nonetheless, my weights have not really increased under fierce 5. I think this is a fair time to call it quits (I looked back in my tracking app and completed the fierce 5 workout about 40 times) and look for a different program that might fit my needs better. In particular, I stumbled across 5/3/1 which sounds appealing to me because they focus on volume rather than weight. Especially the "as many reps as you can" seems like a fun way to track/experience my progress since adding weights doesnt do the trick for me. Any thoughts on this program? I found a very helpful guide through reddit: thefitness dot wiki/routines/5-3-1-for-beginners/ (unfortunately for some reason I cant post the link)

Kind regards,

[coachcalande]

Well, I think today was the first time I looked at my body and thought to myself damn, I have grown. Nonetheless, my weights have not really increased under fierce 5. I think this is a fair time to call it quits (I looked back in my tracking app and completed the fierce 5 workout about 40 times) and look for a different program that might fit my needs better. In particular, I stumbled across 5/3/1 which sounds appealing to me because they focus on volume rather than weight. Especially the "as many reps as you can" seems like a fun way to track/experience my progress since adding weights doesnt do the trick for me. Any thoughts on this program? I found a very helpful guide through reddit: thefitness dot wiki/routines/5-3-1-for-beginners/ (unfortunately for some reason I cant post the link)

Kind regards,

Make it simpler…

Pick a rep range.

5-10 reps for example.

Train as hard as you can in that rep range. Any time a weight is too light or too heavy for that rep range….auto adjust it.

Over time you’ll be able to do more sets, more weight in that range. Simplicity wins.

[TolerantLactose]

5/3/1 might suit you but it's not high volume as most people will define it. It's slower progression but it might be what you need. It's also less frequency than most novice programs.

[Bremster1]

5/3/1 might suit you but it's not high volume as most people will define it. It's slower progression but it might be what you need. It's also less frequency than most novice programs.

Less frequency how? From what I understand, its 3 times a week, just like fierce 5? Or do you mean hitting certain muscles? Either way I plan on maybe doing 5/3/1 4 times a week as opposed to 3 times, I feel that as a starter with comparably "low" weights I should be able to manage that, no?

[TolerantLactose]

Or do you mean hitting certain muscles?

That's how frequency is defined.

Either way I plan on maybe doing 5/3/1 4 times a week as opposed to 3 times, I feel that as a starter with comparably "low" weights I should be able to manage that, no?

Do it as programmed. You should be starting at a lower weight regardless.

[jaxqen]

"You cannot be a bear if you eat like a rabbit." - I had rabbits before my dog killed them all. They ate all the time.

"With a shirt on to the untrained eye, fat's as good as muscle." - muscle costume is better. Or he can buy an XXL hoodie and 4-5 sweaters. He puts all the sweaters on and then the hoodie. He might need some excessive sweating treatment, though.

"I have grown. Nonetheless, my weights have not really increased under fierce 5." - so you put on fat, not muscles. Dirty bulk for the win!

I'll stop at 5 3 1, I can't say anything bad because I don't have Jim Wendler's cool tats. Also, I cannot understand why bald men tend to grow a beard. I'm kidding. Good luck, OP! Push more, eat more! If you cannot push more, push more.

[Bremster1]

"You cannot be a bear if you eat like a rabbit." - I had rabbits before my dog killed them all. They ate all the time.

"With a shirt on to the untrained eye, fat's as good as muscle." - muscle costume is better. Or he can buy an XXL hoodie and 4-5 sweaters. He puts all the sweaters on and then the hoodie. He might need some excessive sweating treatment, though.

"I have grown. Nonetheless, my weights have not really increased under fierce 5." - so you put on fat, not muscles. Dirty bulk for the win!

I'll stop at 5 3 1, I can't say anything bad because I don't have Jim Wendler's cool tats. Also, I cannot understand why bald men tend to grow a beard. I'm kidding. Good luck, OP! Push more, eat more! If you cannot push more, push more.

I mean, maybe I have put on some fat, although my body fat doesnt seem much differnt compared to last month. My weight also has stayed around the same. I doubt I really gained fat, since I ate correctly and worked out consistently.

[Stabdogg]

Dont take my advice, I'm just a noob at this point and this is more of a question than a recommendation.

But, since you are gaining weight, it seems that you are eating enough calories. And if your protein intake is really 140 grams per day, then that would be sufficient as well.

I have also read that 'noob gains / beginner gains' come to people even when they are not in caloric surplus. That's called 'body recomposition'. They also say that even when you train 'wrong' as a beginner, that you will still make gains. That's not to say it is 'optimal' though. And seeing that your bodyfat percentage is increasing you wouldn't want to overeat either.

So if above is correct, then you would or will see gains eventually by continuing what you are currently doing. You and me are in the same boat. I'm also training now for about 2 months and see no results yet, but maybe it's just our bodies adapting to the training more slowly than average. First come the neural adaptations, the improvement in technique, then the weight goes up and eventually the muscles start adjusting and growing.

If you reach a plateau in weight, maybe next session drop the weight by 10% and try to get 2-3 more reps in. How many times are you working out per week?

[SuffolkPunch]

Dont take my advice, I'm just a noob at this point and this is more of a question than a recommendation.

But, since you are gaining weight, it seems that you are eating enough calories. And if your protein intake is really 140 grams per day, then that would be sufficient as well.

I have also read that 'noob gains / beginner gains' come to people even when they are not in caloric surplus. That's called 'body recomposition'. They also say that even when you train 'wrong' as a beginner, that you will still make gains. That's not to say it is 'optimal' though. And seeing that your bodyfat percentage is increasing you wouldn't want to overeat either.

So if above is correct, then you would or will see gains eventually by continuing what you are currently doing. You and me are in the same boat. I'm also training now for about 2 months and see no results yet, but maybe it's just our bodies adapting to the training more slowly than average. First come the neural adaptations, the improvement in technique, then the weight goes up and eventually the muscles start adjusting and growing.

If you reach a plateau in weight, maybe next session drop the weight by 10% and try to get 2-3 more reps in. How many times are you working out per week?

Newbie gains consist of two different things:

1. unfulfilled potential. As a noob you are the furthest away from your ultimate potential and the further away you are, the more quickly you can make progress. So as you improve, your future progress follows an exponential decay curve. Eventually you can't progress at all despite doing everything optimally... most people never reach this point though.

2. in the short term, there are rapid improvements in strength caused by neural factors - your brain learning how to do the movements better given the muscle tissue it has available. So in the first ~6 weeks of training this will cause rapid increases in performance but not necessarily with corresponding muscle growth (which happens on slower time). These neural factors have a ceiling - and indeed they can drop back again especially if you stop doing a particular exercise for a couple of weeks.

[Stabdogg]

Newbie gains consist of two different things:

1. unfulfilled potential. As a noob you are the furthest away from your ultimate potential and the further away you are, the more quickly you can make progress. So as you improve, your future progress follows an exponential decay curve. Eventually you can't progress at all despite doing everything optimally... most people never reach this point though.

2. in the short term, there are rapid improvements in strength caused by neural factors - your brain learning how to do the movements better given the muscle tissue it has available. So in the first ~6 weeks of training this will cause rapid increases in performance but not necessarily with corresponding muscle growth (which happens on slower time). These neural factors have a ceiling - and indeed they can drop back again especially if you stop doing a particular exercise for a couple of weeks.

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

It doesn't explain why OP cannot make gains though. If he is training hard, eating on or over maintainance and consumes enough protein, then something should happen right? Or maybe it simply needs more time?

[SuffolkPunch]

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

It doesn't explain why OP cannot make gains though. If he is training hard, eating on or over maintainance and consumes enough protein, then something should happen right? Or maybe it simply needs more time?

There are numerous reasons why that can happen. The most common ones are:
- "hard" training is subjective... it could mean going HAM once or twice a week and the rest of the time skipping workouts or half-heartedly training. It is hard to do both volume and intensity consistently over time
- progression: you must progress to make progress (obviously)... but it can be a black art managing progression. Go too hard and you hit a wall, spend too much time doing the same thing and you stagnate.
- measuring results is tricky, especially in the short term. It can be hard to see muscle gain if you aren't lean. Many people have unrealistic expectations of what will happen in a given timeframe.

*edit - re-reading the original post, it looks like the initial problem was a progression issue... starting too heavy.

[Bremster1]

There are numerous reasons why that can happen. The most common ones are:
- "hard" training is subjective... it could mean going HAM once or twice a week and the rest of the time skipping workouts or half-heartedly training. It is hard to do both volume and intensity consistently over time
- progression: you must progress to make progress (obviously)... but it can be a black art managing progression. Go too hard and you hit a wall, spend too much time doing the same thing and you stagnate.
- measuring results is tricky, especially in the short term. It can be hard to see muscle gain if you aren't lean. Many people have unrealistic expectations of what will happen in a given timeframe.

*edit - re-reading the original post, it looks like the initial problem was a progression issue... starting too heavy.

Seeing from my Strong application, there has been 1 week since august 1 where I went twice instead of three times. Other than that, consistently 3x a week. (Everytime as hard as I could) I have dropped weights and slowly build back up, yet I can’t progress past the initial barrier. I’m at a loss as to what it could be… I do realize I have a “short” torso and long limbs, also very skinny wrists (16-17 cm), but that shouldn’t affect progression afaik

I’m getting my testosterone and blood checked this Tuesday, maybe I’ll find something there

[Bremster1]

Also a question generally that I’ve been trying to wrapping my head around: why is it that everyone advises starting lower and that that lets you progress faster?

Say you can do an exercise at 20 kg a set amount of times. Why is it that people recommend doing 15 kg one workout, 17,50 the next, 20, 22,5kg and so forth? Wouldn’t doing, for example, 20kg 2 workouts in a row and then going to 22,5kg achieve the same? Both let you tire out your muscles, with the latter option tiring it out even more?