epistane cycle question

[jjq2003]

hi, i'll be doing my first epistane cycle in januarie.
I've had this planned out:
Epistane: 20-20-30-30(maybe 40)
liverlonger and AI cycle support.
As for pct i'll be using Nolvadex: 40-40-20-20
And Lean Xtreme 2 + cycle support.

Question: is it OK to add activate xtreme to my PCT? whould it cause delayed gyno or something?

[metallicide]

I dont think it could cause delayed gyno, and its pretty good for pct, its what I used, and I have had no probs, besides feeling shutdown still...but i think thats something im gonna have to get checked out.

[AnimalG]

I dont think it could cause delayed gyno, and its pretty good for pct, its what I used, and I have had no probs, besides feeling shutdown still...but i think thats something im gonna have to get checked out.

I wouldn't consider being shutdown as having "no probs".

That would be the problem I would be most concerned about.

[metallicide]

Ya im not sure what the deal is, my pct was all good and correct, i cant really blame it on epistane yet.

[tcpombomb]

holy hell, do they actually spell january as januarie in the U.K?

[neoborn]

There have been reports of users claiming gyno, I don't have any details as why this reduces it for some and may potentially inflame it for others. This is what I would recommend for PCT:

================================================== ====
SERM + P.C.T Guide

Now please, anyone is free to discuss this and tell me I've totally got it wrong or need to add something. Now with that said:

Bloodwork! I cannot / we cannot say this enough that it is highly recommended to get bloodwork so you know how to run your PCT and WHAT you need to run on your PCT.

1. SERM - Torem, Ralox, Nolvadex etc

Torem Dosing:
Wk1: 120,90,90,60,60,60,60,
Wk2: 40,40,40,40,30,30,30
Wk3: 20,20,20,20,10,10,10
Wk4: Needed? 10,10,10,10,10,10,10

You should monitor this carefully and will most likely bounce back rather quickly with this SERM as per reports given by experienced users on the board. Please someone let me know if this is overkill for Torem

Nolva Dosing:
Wk1: 40,40,40,20,20,20,20
Wk2: 20mg everyday
Wk3: 10mg everyday
Wk4: 10mg everyday

I am not sure why anyone would go above these dosages, as per Dinoii, as the large body of studies / material backs up dosages no more than 40mg and mainly focuses on 20mg / 10mg dosage schemes. More is not better

2. Cycle Support - Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Liver Longer, Perfect Cycle, Liv52, NAC, SAMe, Advanced PCT.

3. AI - Formestane(Highly Recommended), 6-OXO / Androstenetrione.

4. Anti-Cort - X-Lean, Retain 2, Lean Xtreme, 11-OxO, Abliderate (8oz), B-Androstenetriol

5. Test Booster - I have heard good things on the following: Dermacrine Sustain, Drive, T-Force, Activate(original).

NON-SERM + P.C.T Guide

1. Non SERM - Post Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Dermacrine Sustain(Recommended)

2. Cycle Support - Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Liver Longer, Perfect Cycle, Liv52, NAC, SAMe, Advanced PCT.

3. AI - Formestane(Highly Recommended), Dermacrine Sustain, 6-OXO / Androstenetrione.

4. Anti-Cort - X-Lean, Retain 2, Lean Xtreme, 11-OxO, Abliderate (8oz), B-Androstenetriol

5. Test Booster - I have heard good things on the following: Dermacrine Sustain, Drive, T-Force, Activate(original).

All of the products and protocols above are open to discussion. This is not a hard and fast list but a guide to help.

With that said Epistane style products on a non extreme usage style cycle are going to use a less extreme PCT. Better not to have huge hormonal swinging in either direction. Calm, steady and relative therapy is recommended.

Things To Note

1. You will most likely want to run your AI (Formestane) for a month or so after finishing your PCT therapy to make sure you experience no estrogen rebound / flooding. If you run your PCT for four weeks, as you ramp down on your SERM etc ramp up on your Formestane / AI so, to as keep your estrogen under control. There has been talk of SERMs actually exacerbating this problem due to kicking test up too high then *boom!* man boobs!

2. Once done your PCT, and AI time ramp it down slowly until about one month after PCT


3. Know what gyno is and the symptoms of gyno: @@@ Gyno Questions - Please Read This First @@@ - Bodybuilding.com Forums
================================================== ==

[Interlocutor]

Torem Dosing:
Wk1: 120,90,90,60,60,60,60,
Wk2: 40,40,40,40,30,30,30
Wk3: 20,20,20,20,10,10,10
Wk4: Needed? 10,10,10,10,10,10,10

on which logic/science is this recommendation based? it seems pretty weird to me. if we consider a half-life for Torm of 5-6 days (which is what i have to conlude from available sources), this dosing scheme does not make much sense to me, to be honest. this would look much more applicable to a compound with a rather short half life, a few hours or less. but as i understand it this is not the case with Torm (and Nolva seems even longer lived, btw.).

my understanding would be that you want to have a short pre-load phase to stabilize blood levels of the compound at a stable niveau, which then is maintained for some time, and finally allowed to taper down after cessation of the product.

in your proposal, the pre-load seems to short to achieve the levels seen from stable 60mg application in the studies, and the taper down would not only appear not necessary, due to the long half life of the compound which will cause blood levels to slowly fall over time, but the early approach also only serve to destabilize blood levels.

please compare expected blood levels from various dosing schemes and explain the advantage of the proposed scheme as compared to:

day 1-5 120mg
day 6-21 60mg

i may be wrong and your proposal may offer some advantage, so please enlighten me. but i think my proposal offers more stable blood levels for a longer time.

if i have time, i will prepare some comparative charts tomorrow for a variety of dosing schemes, to underscore my meaning.

also be aware that a 10mg dose would be pretty difficult to achieve with 60mg fareston tablets... i'd say you can have 60mg, 30mg (half tablet), and maybe roughly 15mg (quarter tablet) doses, but that's about it. 10mg and 20mg proposals would rely and be applicable only to liquid Torm (even if they did make any sense, which so far they do not for me).

to be honest, with the data available to me so far i could not recommend to follow your proposed dosing scheme for Torm.

3. AI - Formestane(Highly Recommended), 6-OXO / Androstenetrione.

why do you recommend Formestane as AI, when a lot of people seem to be pretty opposed to it in PCT, due to its more-or-less-slightly suppressive metabolites? there are many non-suppressive AIs available, so why recommed Formestane above all others? ATD seems pretty powerful (dosing dependent), is extremely cheap, is a well studied and long known compound, and has pretty good feedback.

2. Cycle Support - Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Liver Longer, Perfect Cycle, Liv52, NAC, SAMe, Advanced PCT.

you do realize that the main ingredient in aPCT is 6-bromo, supposedly an AI? it should probably neither be used on-cycle as cycle support, nor should it be stacked post-cycle with other AIs, IMHO, unless with very clear vision about the dosing. furthermore NAC is already contained in e.g. Perfect Cycle, and my understanding is that NAC should probably not be dosed to high.

you also seem pretty convinced about the efficacy of the dermacrine and post cycle support. have you used it yourself?

THE INTERLOCUTOR

[jsweetness]

on which logic/science is this recommendation based? it seems pretty weird to me. if we consider a half-life for Torm of 5-6 days (which is what i have to conlude from available sources), this dosing scheme does not make much sense to me, to be honest. this would look much more applicable to a compound with a rather short half life, a few hours or less. but as i understand it this is not the case with Torm (and Nolva seems even longer lived, btw.).

my understanding would be that you want to have a short pre-load phase to stabilize blood levels of the compound at a stable niveau, which then is maintained for some time, and finally allowed to taper down after cessation of the product.

in your proposal, the pre-load seems to short to achieve the levels seen from stable 60mg application in the studies, and the taper down would not only appear not necessary, due to the long half life of the compound which will cause blood levels to slowly fall over time, but the early approach also only serve to destabilize blood levels.

please compare expected blood levels from various dosing schemes and explain the advantage of the proposed scheme as compared to:

day 1-5 120mg
day 6-21 60mg

i may be wrong and your proposal may offer some advantage, so please enlighten me. but i think my proposal offers more stable blood levels for a longer time.

if i have time, i will prepare some comparative charts tomorrow for a variety of dosing schemes, to underscore my meaning.

also be aware that a 10mg dose would be pretty difficult to achieve with 60mg fareston tablets... i'd say you can have 60mg, 30mg (half tablet), and maybe roughly 15mg (quarter tablet) doses, but that's about it. 10mg and 20mg proposals would rely and be applicable only to liquid Torm (even if they did make any sense, which so far they do not for me).

to be honest, with the data available to me so far i could not recommend to follow your proposed dosing scheme for Torm.



why do you recommend Formestane as AI, when a lot of people seem to be pretty opposed to it in PCT, due to its more-or-less-slightly suppressive metabolites? there are many non-suppressive AIs available, so why recommed Formestane above all others? ATD seems pretty powerful (dosing dependent), is extremely cheap, is a well studied and long known compound, and has pretty good feedback.



you do realize that the main ingredient in aPCT is 6-bromo, supposedly an AI? it should probably neither be used on-cycle as cycle support, nor should it be stacked post-cycle with other AIs, IMHO, unless with very clear vision about the dosing. furthermore NAC is already contained in e.g. Perfect Cycle, and my understanding is that NAC should probably not be dosed to high.

you also seem pretty convinced about the efficacy of the dermacrine and post cycle support. have you used it yourself?

THE INTERLOCUTOR

hey meant Anabolic Innovations Cycle Support, an all-in-one support supp.

[gobigandgohome]

I could see using formestane on cycle but i agree with the PCT comments (mildly suppressive). There has been a lot of controversy with ATD as well, in that it might actually increase Aromatase levels. Personally I don't think an AI would be necessary for epistane if a SERM is properly dosed after the cycle. If you feel obligated to buying one, id say 6oxo or bromo. I wouldn't advise ramping up the dosage either - unless you taper off because some have noted a rebound after completing their AI.

cheers, keep us updated.

[Interlocutor]

now, this may all be nonsense, but see attached a chart on the effects of various Torm dosing schedules (as i see them), based on a 5-day half-life.

A = Neo's proposal
B = 120/90/60/30 (most common recommendation)
C = 120-3/90-4/60/60/30 (also pretty common recommendation)
D = 60/60/60/30
E = 90/60/60/30
F = 120-5/60-2/60/60/30
G = 60/60/60
H = 90/60/60
I = 120-5/60-2/60/60/30
K = 120/60/60/30

some discussion (please comment/correct):

1. A will not raise blood levels to baseline, nor hold them stable there for some time, but provides a long taper down, albeit from a pretty low level. it is unknown at which level Torm ceases to have any appreciable effect, but let's assume this happens at 50% of Baseline.

2. B will create a strong spike beyond Baseline, which is probably ineffective and thus a waste of money, as well as probably incurring more sides (libido). K will also spike somewhat beyond baseline, but will drop comparatively smoothly.

3. Dosing schedules C, E, F, H and I are pretty much equivalent in quickly raising blood levels to Baseline.

4. D and G (no preloading) are somewhat slow in approaching Baseline, i will not recommend those any further except for weak compounds/cycles.

5. adding a week of 30mg at the end seems to actually slow down the taper appreciately and hold blood levels above beyond 50% baseline for some more days.

6. my conclusion would be that the preferred PCT dosing schemes for Torm would be either C, E and F, with F offering the quickest ramp up, and thus the longest time at stable Baseline levels.

i will thusly modify my PCT recommendation to be

Day 1-5 = 120mg Torm
Day 6-21 = 60mg Torm
Day 22-28 = 30mg Torm

and for those afraid of libido-loss at 120mg dosings, a simple 90/60/60/30 dosing.

those recommendations will keep blood levels comparatively stable for an extended time, thusy preventing strong fluctuations of outside influence on hormonal levels, and allowing a quick and undisturbed recovery of normal t and e levels.

alternatively, those who follow the argumentation of a start-high-tapered-down SERM approach (which i do not, personally) should IMHO look at a schedule like K: 120/60/60/30 which will provide a quick ramp-up somewhat beyond baseline, and from there a slow and steady drop in blood levels.

THE INTERLOCUTOR

P.S. anyone got an idea how to place this image inline?

[LaxPro]

There have been reports of users claiming gyno, I don't have any details as why this reduces it for some and may potentially inflame it for others. This is what I would recommend for PCT:

================================================== ====
SERM + P.C.T Guide

Now please, anyone is free to discuss this and tell me I've totally got it wrong or need to add something. Now with that said:

Bloodwork! I cannot / we cannot say this enough that it is highly recommended to get bloodwork so you know how to run your PCT and WHAT you need to run on your PCT.

1. SERM - Torem, Ralox, Nolvadex etc

Torem Dosing:
Wk1: 120,90,90,60,60,60,60,
Wk2: 40,40,40,40,30,30,30
Wk3: 20,20,20,20,10,10,10
Wk4: Needed? 10,10,10,10,10,10,10

You should monitor this carefully and will most likely bounce back rather quickly with this SERM as per reports given by experienced users on the board. Please someone let me know if this is overkill for Torem

Nolva Dosing:
Wk1: 40,40,40,20,20,20,20
Wk2: 20mg everyday
Wk3: 10mg everyday
Wk4: 10mg everyday

I am not sure why anyone would go above these dosages, as per Dinoii, as the large body of studies / material backs up dosages no more than 40mg and mainly focuses on 20mg / 10mg dosage schemes. More is not better

2. Cycle Support - Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Liver Longer, Perfect Cycle, Liv52, NAC, SAMe, Advanced PCT.

3. AI - Formestane(Highly Recommended), 6-OXO / Androstenetrione.

4. Anti-Cort - X-Lean, Retain 2, Lean Xtreme, 11-OxO, Abliderate (8oz), B-Androstenetriol

5. Test Booster - I have heard good things on the following: Dermacrine Sustain, Drive, T-Force, Activate(original).

NON-SERM + P.C.T Guide

1. Non SERM - Post Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Dermacrine Sustain(Recommended)

2. Cycle Support - Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Liver Longer, Perfect Cycle, Liv52, NAC, SAMe, Advanced PCT.

3. AI - Formestane(Highly Recommended), Dermacrine Sustain, 6-OXO / Androstenetrione.

4. Anti-Cort - X-Lean, Retain 2, Lean Xtreme, 11-OxO, Abliderate (8oz), B-Androstenetriol

5. Test Booster - I have heard good things on the following: Dermacrine Sustain, Drive, T-Force, Activate(original).

All of the products and protocols above are open to discussion. This is not a hard and fast list but a guide to help.

With that said Epistane style products on a non extreme usage style cycle are going to use a less extreme PCT. Better not to have huge hormonal swinging in either direction. Calm, steady and relative therapy is recommended.

Things To Note

1. You will most likely want to run your AI (Formestane) for a month or so after finishing your PCT therapy to make sure you experience no estrogen rebound / flooding. If you run your PCT for four weeks, as you ramp down on your SERM etc ramp up on your Formestane / AI so, to as keep your estrogen under control. There has been talk of SERMs actually exacerbating this problem due to kicking test up too high then *boom!* man boobs!

2. Once done your PCT, and AI time ramp it down slowly until about one month after PCT


3. Know what gyno is and the symptoms of gyno: @@@ Gyno Questions - Please Read This First @@@ - Bodybuilding.com Forums
================================================== ==

neo,

your posts are always really informative. your a great rep for your company. thanks.

[getbustered]

neo,

your posts are always really informative. your a great rep for your company. thanks.

Damn straight. It is amazing the way he is able to compile a bunch of random information and thoughts that others have posted, put them all together, and then have his hodgepodge of PCT brilliance exposed by Interlocutor.

[neoborn]

Damn straight. It is amazing the way he is able to compile a bunch of random information and thoughts that others have posted, put them all together, and then have his hodgepodge of PCT brilliance exposed by Interlocutor.

This is basically true, thank you for your compliment. I have never claimed to be a steroid guru. I am absolutely 100% sure there are many guys like Inter that are potentially alot smarter with these processes etc than I am. I absolutely encourage those who have these skills and gifts to step up to the plate and willingly help those that need it so that I can either make better FAQ's or back away and allow the creative geniuses to truly shine.

Feel free to take over here GB, or well contribute something of value, please do....

Much Love,

Neoborn

[Cp bball3]

I was planning on doing Epistane at 30/30/40/40 with 6-oxo, post cycle support and retain2 for PCT. I have a few questions on my pct.

Week 1: PCS 5 caps, 6-oxo 600mg, Nolvadex 10mg EOD
Week 2: PCS 4 caps, 6-oxo 300mg, Retain2 3 caps
Week 3: PCS 4 caps, 6-oxo 200mg, Retain2 2 caps
Week 4: PCS 3 caps, 6-oxo 200mg, Reatin2 1 cap

I don't wanna use Nolvadex cause I don't believe I need it. However, I do have it on hand in case i get a flare up of gyno. What do you guys think of this? I dont wanna increase my 6-oxo dosage but rather taper down.

[Interlocutor]

I was planning on doing Epistane at 30/30/40/40 with 6-oxo, post cycle support and retain2 for PCT. I have a few questions on my pct.
Week 1: PCS 5 caps, 6-oxo 600mg, Nolvadex 10mg EOD
Week 2: PCS 4 caps, 6-oxo 300mg, Retain2 3 caps
Week 3: PCS 4 caps, 6-oxo 200mg, Retain2 2 caps
Week 4: PCS 3 caps, 6-oxo 200mg, Reatin2 1 cap
I don't wanna use Nolvadex cause I don't believe I need it. However, I do have it on hand in case i get a flare up of gyno. What do you guys think of this? I dont wanna increase my 6-oxo dosage but rather taper down.

i think you either want to use the nolva "right", or just save it for problems. considering the 7-day half life of Nolva, i am not convinced that one week at 10mg is going to do anything worthwhile.

do you have previous experience? if not, why go 30/30/40/40 and not 20/20/20/30? how heavy are you?

THE INTERLOCUTOR

[Vanity_Gurl]

i think you either want to use the nolva "right", or just save it for problems. considering the 7-day half life of Nolva, i am not convinced that one week at 10mg is going to do anything worthwhile.

THE INTERLOCUTOR

Or he could get his butt in the gym, train like a beast, diet like a IFBB pro and get 8 hours of sleep per night. Oh wait, that's too hard.

[Interlocutor]

Or he could get his butt in the gym, train like a beast, diet like a IFBB pro and get 8 hours of sleep per night. Oh wait, that's too hard.

we can also simply presume he's already doing that, and will now use exogenous synthetic hormones at his own risk to augment his gains?

oh, and dieting like an IFBB pro without use of the ancillary drugs (IGF, HGH, Insulin etc.) wouldn't that probably make anyone into a pretty bloated pig in a very short time?

THE INTERLOCUTOR

[Cp bball3]

Or he could get his butt in the gym, train like a beast, diet like a IFBB pro and get 8 hours of sleep per night. Oh wait, that's too hard.

First off some people want to achieve goals by using these substances properly and dont have time to diet all year round. However, I will be sleeping 8-10 hours a day, dieting exceptionally well and training very hard. On another note, im 6'4" 220 at around 11-12% (Top 3abs visible). I have used Nolva before and didnt like it. I much rather perfer the OTC PCT method. If Nolva has a 7 day half life why wouldnt using it at 10mg EOD be worthwhile? Even just at teh start of the cycle to get me up and running faster.

[d2trader1]

First off some people want to achieve goals by using these substances properly and dont have time to diet all year round. However, I will be sleeping 8-10 hours a day, dieting exceptionally well and training very hard. On another note, im 6'4" 220 at around 11-12% (Top 3abs visible). I have used Nolva before and didnt like it. I much rather perfer the OTC PCT method. If Nolva has a 7 day half life why wouldnt using it at 10mg EOD be worthwhile? Even just at teh start of the cycle to get me up and running faster.

How many times are you (at under 21) gonna keep posting your OTC PTC nonsense. You screwed up your last post along this line when you combined your other account EagleMan003 (you know, the one you pretend isnt you) Why dont you jump on your eagleman003 account and agree with yourself, like you do in other threads. The question you ask in this thread is fine, but please stop telling people you "prefer the OTC method or your feelings on Nolva" when its clear you didnt run your "first" cycle with Nolva. Also, your under 21 you shouldn't be running cycles at all. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=5772051

[neoborn]

Thanks for your input interlocutor I have changed my FAQ accordingly. Good post! I cannot currently change my post in here so:

Guys please see Interlocutors recommendations for Torm.

Please feel free to pm your sources of information on Torm so I can do some reading

Much Love,

Neoborn

[Interlocutor]

If Nolva has a 7 day half life why wouldnt using it at 10mg EOD be worthwhile? Even just at teh start of the cycle to get me up and running faster.

because the effect of compounds with a long half-life is much more due to the amount of the compound which has accumulated in the body, than the amount you take. for compounds whith a long half-life, if you want to take them only for a limited time, you would usually look at a loading phase to quickly reach more-or less stable levels at a niveau which will elicit the desired effect, and then an intake sufficient to maintain those levels for some time, to allow the desired effect to take place.

the main point of debate with Nolva would be what those levels actually would be which you would want to reach for the best effect vs. sides ration.

i attach some bro-science charts to roughly illuminate the difference in the levels of the substance in the body when taking 10mg for one week or following a 40/20/20/20 protocol (however, that is only a very very crude approximation, not taking into account short term peaks after intake, complex metabolite conversion interactions, etc.).

THE INTERLOCUTOR

[emf]

if your worried about sides with epistane how about using the pulse method.

[Vanity_Gurl]

we can also simply presume he's already doing that, and will now use exogenous synthetic hormones at his own risk to augment his gains?

oh, and dieting like an IFBB pro without use of the ancillary drugs (IGF, HGH, Insulin etc.) wouldn't that probably make anyone into a pretty bloated pig in a very short time?

THE INTERLOCUTOR

So now you're encouraging pre-pubescent boys to use steroids. nice....

[guyrelax]

First off some people want to achieve goals by using these substances properly and dont have time to diet all year round. However, I will be sleeping 8-10 hours a day, dieting exceptionally well and training very hard. On another note, im 6'4" 220 at around 11-12% (Top 3abs visible). I have used Nolva before and didnt like it. I much rather perfer the OTC PCT method. If Nolva has a 7 day half life why wouldnt using it at 10mg EOD be worthwhile? Even just at teh start of the cycle to get me up and running faster.

did you say 'don't have time' to diet year round?? If you have time to bust your ass in the gym, you have time to eat right. Otherwise don't bother... ESPECIALLY WITH PH OR AAS. What a waste without a solid diet. Even 3 good meals a day with 2-3 high quality shakes in between could be considered a solid BB plan if your cals are right for your goals.