[QUOTE=Cass40;1644247673]I have no idea what y'all talking aboot viral loads etc. and can't even do sober math crew. which is like a disability but that's another topic.[/QUOTE]
Who needs math when you can do Sumo?
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[QUOTE=Cass40;1644247673]I have no idea what y'all talking aboot viral loads etc. and can't even do sober math crew. which is like a disability but that's another topic.[/QUOTE]
Who needs math when you can do Sumo?
[QUOTE=Plateauplower;1644248173]Yes there are a lot of things not fully understood in immunology.
As for the bolded, my point is that's a pretty $hity "vaccine" then. More like a preemptive treatment. Vaccines are supposed to create immunity, correct? So when they don't, is that called a "vaccine failure"? I'm glad the smallpox vaccine was more effective than this. I still 100% agree it has benefits and at risk people should get it for the reduction of chance of a bad outcome, but the push for everyone to get vaccinated with a vaccine that doesn't prevent infection, and doesn't prevent transmission seems kind of silly, don't you think? It's available for those who want it, it will likely reduce their course of illness, but it is not without risk in and of itself (as is the case with about everything).
Immunity: Protection from an infectious disease. If you are immune to a disease, you can be exposed to it without becoming infected.
Vaccine: A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease.
[url]https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm[/url][/QUOTE]
IDK if its a failure or not using the vaccine definition but if it mitigates the spread and severity it sounds like a win to me.
Agree about the efficacy of the small pox vax. In todays climate we'd have been really fuked.
[QUOTE=JustTheDad;1644248713]Who needs math when you can do Sumo?[/QUOTE]
Lol. :)
well..my costo is mostly gone so I can do regular DL now again. No bench press and no dips yet but patience is a virtue.
[QUOTE=Reliance012;1644225853]This is expected of you. On more than one occasion I’ve seen you make elementary mistakes in your posts. I’ll correct them again. To add, your descriptions of basic immunology are shameful.
Pathogens have differential tissue tropism, and one of the factors that influences this tropism is how well the immune system, both innate and adaptive, control pathogen growth rates. Influenza for example is more likely to disseminate to and aggressively replicate in the lungs of immunocompromised hosts. Immunity induced through vaccination, both cell-mediated and humoral, can do the same thing. This is why for example, AstraZeneca’s vaccine did not significantly lower replicating virus in the URT but it did in the LRT of macaques during animal studies. By doing this it also reduced disease severity. Your comment about systemic immunity has no relevance. Immune players (including adaptive) are recruitable to tissues.
Some pro tips for next time: Don’t say macro****e and white blood cells. Macro****es are white blood cells. Also not all intracellular mechanisms for destroying pathogens are via cell-mediated responses. The rest of your post has no relevance. “It’s way beyond a surface protein that wasn’t even known to be important to the virus.” Trying way too hard my dude. The very obvious point of my post is that vaccine induced immunity can differentially affect pathogen replication in the lower vs upper respiratory tract. Do you deny this?[/QUOTE]
You just have no idea how rude and unpleasant you are. The fact that you use such condescending and abusive language is a certain sign that you lack faith in whatever it is you are talking about. You are trying to make Plateauplower seem stupid, but you are failing miserably. With every post you just seem like more and more of a boor.
[QUOTE=eomrat;1644253833]You just have no idea how rude and unpleasant you are. The fact that you use such condescending and abusive language is a certain sign that you lack faith in whatever it is you are talking about. You are trying to make Plateauplower seem stupid, but you are failing miserably. With every post you just seem like more and more of a boor.[/QUOTE]
It's interesting eomrat, I didn't think reliance012 or plateauplower sounded very different tonally from each other, and after a hundred pages, this is the first time I actually noticed any animosity. Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention to that, but we're all pretty frustrated with this stupid pandemic dragging on, and they have a different of opinions on what responses are appropriate based on what we know. They both sound like intelligent guys and I wouldn't say either lacks conviction. Reliance012 also seems to have a very good knowledge base on immunology. Some of his explanations have been notably better than mine (not that mine were anything exceptional) and I've enjoyed seeing their differences of opinion.
Most importantly though, thank you for your service. Been to your base a few times in the past for sports related stuff since I'm just up a little ways in the RDU area and have a kid who played hockey for a long time. Hope you're doing well down there.
[QUOTE=Cass40;1644249623]Lol. :)
well..my costo is mostly gone so I can do regular DL now again. No bench press and no dips yet but patience is a virtue.[/QUOTE]
Glad to hear that you are getting some relief Cass, hopefully it disappears for good..
[QUOTE=_zman;1644244403]Big pharma clearly got to her. And the irony here is palpable.[/QUOTE]
If you take a moment to pause and think, how do you feel about coming to the conclusion of "pharma got to her" rather than that it may just be her opinion? Is a conspiracy theory really the first logical conclusion?
[youtube]YdRZJKG7rhw[/youtube]
[QUOTE=mtpockets;1644269853][youtube]YdRZJKG7rhw[/youtube][/QUOTE]
I like that guy and what he's saying makes a lot of sense. Thanks for posting.
[QUOTE=mgftp;1644262293]If you take a moment to pause and think, how do you feel about coming to the conclusion of "pharma got to her" rather than that it may just be her opinion? Is a conspiracy theory really the first logical conclusion?[/QUOTE]
When you can no longer detect sarcasm, it might be time to take a break from being a vaccine thread moderator.
[QUOTE=_zman;1644272523]When you can no longer detect sarcasm, it might be time to take a break from being a vaccine thread moderator.[/QUOTE]
I didn't think that statement was out of line from other posts I've seen you make so I must have you confused with someone else.
If you can appropriately detect sarcasm on an internet forum, especially one as wild as this you may as well consider it a super power IMO.
[QUOTE=mgftp;1644301383]you may as well consider it a super power IMO.[/QUOTE]
Probably from the nanites
I'm jealous.
[QUOTE=TryingBB;1644177293]You say what? That’s not what they’re saying on ******** and that’s not what the neighbor said and not even the cashier at circle K!!
Remember my coworker i mentioned gotncovid? She sounded like our friend above before she got sick (anti mask and anti vax). Below is a copy/paste from her from yesterday.
“ Im running fever boss it was 102.5 i just took medicine i need to get better why me omg after im done with this im going to get injection hopefully im still alive”[/QUOTE]
I have several very pro-vax colleagues, fully vaccinated, who got covid sooo...
Also why the hell would your colleague want the vaccine after she's had covid? What is it with fear that just turns off people's brains?
[QUOTE=sy2502;1644318863]I have several very pro-vax colleagues, fully vaccinated, who got covid sooo...
Also why the hell would your colleague want the vaccine after she's had covid? What is it with fear that just turns off people's brains?[/QUOTE]
Describe how sick your vaccinated colleagues are/were, i am genuinely curious.
Any idea which vaccines they got?
[QUOTE=x-trainer ben;1644319283]Describe how sick your vaccinated colleagues are/were, i am genuinely curious.
Any idea which vaccines they got?[/QUOTE]
They were out of work for a whole week, but not sure if due to caution or because genuinely sick. No idea which vaccine they got, sorry.
It's kind of poetic in a way because one of them got the vaccine as soon as they came out, when they were doing just old people and people with pre-existing conditions, and he got it because he lied about having pre-existing conditions. We all thought he was an azzhole for depriving some elderly person of a dose of vaccine when that old person was in so much more danger than him, so the fact that he caught covid anyway is a delicious irony.
[QUOTE=sy2502;1644318863]I have several very pro-vax colleagues, fully vaccinated, who got covid sooo...
Also why the hell would your colleague want the vaccine after she's had covid? What is it with fear that just turns off people's brains?[/QUOTE]
Sucks to hear your colleagues got covid. I’ve had vaccinated people I know also who got covid but apparently not as severe.
How were the symptoms for the people you know?
Also, I was also under the impression that vaccine will prevent the infection only to find out over the last 1.5months that it just reduces the severity of it - some stay asymptomatic, some have mild and medium and some get severe symptoms. Some get hospitalized and some die.
But the percentage of vaxxed people vs unvaxxed who are getting hospitalized or dying is much lower than for vaxxed.
[QUOTE=eomrat;1644253833]You just have no idea how rude and unpleasant you are. The fact that you use such condescending and abusive language is a certain sign that you lack faith in whatever it is you are talking about. You are trying to make Plateauplower seem stupid, but you are failing miserably. With every post you just seem like more and more of a boor.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, because the post I responded to was so pleasant. Did you even read it?
[QUOTE=TryingBB;1644341513]Sucks to hear your colleagues got covid. I’ve had vaccinated people I know also who got covid but apparently not as severe.
How were the symptoms for the people you know?
Also, I was also under the impression that vaccine will prevent the infection only to find out over the last 1.5months that it just reduces the severity of it - some stay asymptomatic, some have mild and medium and some get severe symptoms. Some get hospitalized and some die.
But the percentage of vaxxed people vs unvaxxed who are getting hospitalized or dying is much lower than for vaxxed.[/QUOTE]
The person I talked to briefly said he was bed ridden for 3 days but took him the rest of the week to feel back to normal. Others were reports from managers talking about people in their group so I didn't speak to the people in question but they reported a similar thing, fever and bed rest for a few days.
I understand the thing about vax making it less severe when you catch it, but it's also true that in most demographics people who catch it will have no symptoms or mild symptoms, so for them there doesn't seem to be any advantage in getting the vax. They might as well get the virus and develop real immunity than get the vax and have to do booster shots every 6 months.
Moreover I hear people are sick 1-2 days after each shot so you can either be sick 2-4 days with the vaccine, or 2-4 days with the virus, doesn't seem like a great trade off.
Now, people at risk? That's a completely different matter.
[QUOTE=sy2502;1644343783]The person I talked to briefly said he was bed ridden for 3 days but took him the rest of the week to feel back to normal. Others were reports from managers talking about people in their group so I didn't speak to the people in question but they reported a similar thing, fever and bed rest for a few days.
I understand the thing about vax making it less severe when you catch it, but it's also true that in most demographics people who catch it will have no symptoms or mild symptoms, so for them there doesn't seem to be any advantage in getting the vax. They might as well get the virus and develop real immunity than get the vax and have to do booster shots every 6 months.
Moreover I hear people are sick 1-2 days after each shot so you can either be sick 2-4 days with the vaccine, or 2-4 days with the virus, doesn't seem like a great trade off.
Now, people at risk? That's a completely different matter.[/QUOTE]
I think that's the true failure of the govt, cdc, etc. failure to address those who are not as risk. If you're not at risk, by all means get the virus and forego the vaccine.
[QUOTE=sy2502;1644343783]The person I talked to briefly said he was bed ridden for 3 days but took him the rest of the week to feel back to normal. Others were reports from managers talking about people in their group so I didn't speak to the people in question but they reported a similar thing, fever and bed rest for a few days.
I understand the thing about vax making it less severe when you catch it, but it's also true that in most demographics people who catch it will have no symptoms or mild symptoms, so for them there doesn't seem to be any advantage in getting the vax. [b]They might as well get the virus and develop real immunity than get the vax and have to do booster shots every 6 months[/b].
Moreover I hear people are sick 1-2 days after each shot so you can either be sick 2-4 days with the vaccine, or 2-4 days with the virus, doesn't seem like a great trade off.
Now, people at risk? That's a completely different matter.[/QUOTE]
Only place I have heard about developing “real immunity” by getting the virus is here on this forum. Seriously saying if you have reliable source where I can read this, please share. Till them I’m a vaxxer , gonna keep my mask on and yes I’M a puzzy enuff to say I’m gonna get the booster a month or two after and when it comes out.
I think there are people getting covid a second time.
I actually met a lady last week who got it in December and got delta last month.
She said she’s getting vaccinated cuz she’s had enough of it already (she recovered on her own without hospitalization)
[QUOTE=sy2502;1644323003]They were out of work for a whole week, but not sure if due to caution or because genuinely sick. No idea which vaccine they got, sorry.
It's kind of poetic in a way because one of them got the vaccine as soon as they came out, when they were doing just old people and people with pre-existing conditions, and he got it because he lied about having pre-existing conditions. We all thought he was an azzhole for depriving some elderly person of a dose of vaccine when that old person was in so much more danger than him, so the fact that he caught covid anyway is a delicious irony.[/QUOTE]
thanks for that
[QUOTE=TryingBB;1644346543]Only place I have heard about developing “real immunity” by getting the virus is here on this forum. Seriously saying if you have reliable source where I can read this, please share. Till them I’m a vaxxer , gonna keep my mask on and yes I’M a puzzy enuff to say I’m gonna get the booster a month or two after and when it comes out.
I think there are people getting covid a second time.
I actually met a lady last week who got it in December and got delta last month.
She said she’s getting vaccinated cuz she’s had enough of it already (she recovered on her own without hospitalization)[/QUOTE]
[url]https://news.emory.edu/stories/2021/07/covid_survivors_resistance/index.html[/url]
[url]https://www.cell.com/cell-reports-medicine/fulltext/S2666-3791(21)00203-2[/url]
Cliffs: immunity from recovering from the disease is broader than from vaccine (which makes sense since the vaccine uses only the spike protein while an infection exposes you to the entire virus). Also immunity seems to decline more slowly in people who were infected than in vaccinated people.
I know this is anecdotal but the first people diagnosed with covid in Europe still have antibodies over a year later.
[url]https://www.wxxinews.org/post/rochesters-covid-19-patient-zero-says-he-still-has-antibodies-one-year-later[/url]
[url]https://twitter.com/RanIsraeli/status/1423322271503028228[/url]
[quote]"95% of the severe patients are vaccinated".
"85-90% of the hospitalizations are in Fully vaccinated people."
"We are opening more and more COVID wards."
"The effectiveness of the vaccine is waning/fading out"
(Dr. Kobi Haviv, earlier today on Chanel 13
@newsisrael13 )[/quote]
A booster will fix that right up.
[QUOTE=Reliance012;1644343123]Yeah, because the post I responded to was so pleasant. Did you even read it?[/QUOTE]
I did. it seems like PP is getting frustrated with your nitpicking every single thing he says, intentionally misrepresenting his views, and the constant bickering, just to be bickering, that you engage in. If you choose to insult people for their views or use condescending and insulting language with anyone who has a different opinion than you, you do not get to whine when people get tired of your boorishness.
If you had any confidence in your position, you would not need to try to denigrate people who hold a different opinion. You will get a lot farther by engaging in civil discourse than you will by being hateful.
[QUOTE=eomrat;1644381683]I did. it seems like PP is getting frustrated with your nitpicking every single thing he says, intentionally misrepresenting his views, and the constant bickering, just to be bickering, that you engage in. If you choose to insult people for their views or use condescending and insulting language with anyone who has a different opinion than you, you do not get to whine when people get tired of your boorishness.
If you had any confidence in your position, you would not need to try to denigrate people who hold a different opinion. You will get a lot farther by engaging in civil discourse than you will by being hateful.[/QUOTE]
Not a correct take at all. If someone wants to hurl insults at me, I have no problem sending a condescending post back, particularly one that highlights their ignorance. If you’d like to talk the science of any of my posts, rather than speaking in vague platitudes, then we can do it.
[QUOTE=sy2502;1644347913][url]https://news.emory.edu/stories/2021/07/covid_survivors_resistance/index.html[/url]
[url]https://www.cell.com/cell-reports-medicine/fulltext/S2666-3791(21)00203-2[/url]
Cliffs: immunity from recovering from the disease is broader than from vaccine (which makes sense since the vaccine uses only the spike protein while an infection exposes you to the entire virus). Also immunity seems to decline more slowly in people who were infected than in vaccinated people.
I know this is anecdotal but the first people diagnosed with covid in Europe still have antibodies over a year later.
[url]https://www.wxxinews.org/post/rochesters-covid-19-patient-zero-says-he-still-has-antibodies-one-year-later[/url][/QUOTE]
At least that's good news on the post-infection immunity front.
[QUOTE=TolerantLactose;1644353103][url]https://twitter.com/RanIsraeli/status/1423322271503028228[/url]
A booster will fix that right up.[/QUOTE]
That's not good if accurate. They have a high vaccination rate with Pfizer IIRC. Time to move the goal posts and shift the narrative. "Well we always knew the vaccine was just to prevent serious illness in young and healthy people and prevent infection in those who have recovered from covid ". Then blame it on the anti-science devil people.
[QUOTE=eomrat;1644381683]I did. it seems like PP is getting frustrated with your nitpicking every single thing he says, intentionally misrepresenting his views, and the constant bickering, just to be bickering, that you engage in. If you choose to insult people for their views or use condescending and insulting language with anyone who has a different opinion than you, you do not get to whine when people get tired of your boorishness.
If you had any confidence in your position, you would not need to try to denigrate people who hold a different opinion. You will get a lot farther by engaging in civil discourse than you will by being hateful.[/QUOTE]
Yep, much this. Anyone who dares challenge the idiocy of some of the public health measures, or look at the available prevention and treatment options with some level of skepticism is automatically anti-vax, not "trusting the science" etc. etc. It was the same 20 some years ago when I was a lead for a large health department (public health sector) for development of West Nile Virus response which was a "novel" vector-borne disease at the time. Still remember several deaths from people spraying their little kids with outdoor yard foggers for mosquito prevention for a virus that resulted in 80% asymptomatic cases. That's still here and several hundred die every year from it.
[QUOTE=TolerantLactose;1644353103][url]https://twitter.com/RanIsraeli/status/1423322271503028228[/url]
A booster will fix that right up.[/QUOTE]
Why is this almost the exact opposite of all the stats I have seen? What is the source of this data?
[QUOTE=mgftp;1644387003]Why is this almost the exact opposite of all the stats I have seen? What is the source of this data?[/QUOTE]
When nearly everyone is vaccinated, you are limited to having cases primarily in vaccinated people and some of those are going to be severe/fatal. The critical people are very likely high risk elderly who have poor immune systems, so even with an "effective" vaccine, some are still vulnerable to some degree.
[QUOTE=Plateauplower;1644386183]Anyone who dares challenge the idiocy of some of the public health measures, or look at the available prevention and treatment options with some level of skepticism is automatically anti-vax, not "trusting the science" etc. etc. [/QUOTE]
This drives me nuts but it's been the pattern of social interaction in the past few years. You don't think immigrants should come in illegally? You are automatically a Republican, a Trumper, a racist, a xenophobe. Therefore also a homophobe, sexist, hate poor people, anti science, uneducated, bigoted.
Wow, you got all that about a complete stranger just from "I think immigrants should follow the law to come in"? It's this mental laziness that has infected America where instead of making any mental effort we prefer to create these big boxes where you can stuff people based on one word they used. It's demented.
Also if the data about vaccinated people from UK and Israel actually made it to the US it would completely kill the whole effort to force people to get vaccinated, because there wouldn't really be much of a rational for it. I mean if the whole argument is that we need to protect the population and the vaccine does NOT protect the population then how are you going to follow with "but you must get vaccinated anyway"? Even the most brain dead, brain washed drone would start asking questions.
[QUOTE=sy2502;1644389713]This drives me nuts but it's been the pattern of social interaction in the past few years. You don't think immigrants should come in illegally? You are automatically a Republican, a Trumper, a racist, a xenophobe. Therefore also a homophobe, sexist, hate poor people, anti science, uneducated, bigoted.
Wow, you got all that about a complete stranger just from "I think immigrants should follow the law to come in"? It's this mental laziness that has infected America where instead of making any mental effort we prefer to create these big boxes where you can stuff people based on one word they used. It's demented.
Also if the data about vaccinated people from UK and Israel actually made it to the US it would completely kill the whole effort to force people to get vaccinated, because there wouldn't really be much of a rational for it. I mean if the whole argument is that we need to protect the population and the vaccine does NOT protect the population then how are you going to follow with "but you must get vaccinated anyway"? [b]Even the most brain dead, brain washed drone would start asking questions.[/b][/QUOTE]
Yep agree. You are a legal immigrant aren't you? See you're just jaded because you jumped through all the hoops you are supposed to jump through lol.
As far as the bold, nah, no they won't. They will just follow the sciences from tv. In all actuality, the percentages do not really mater though, the overall total numbers of hospitalized/critical/dead is likely MUCH lower than it would be w/out the vaccines. SO lower totals, with higher percentages due to high vaccination rates making it only vaccinated ending up there. I can almost guarantee there will be hospital overruns here in rural areas with low post-infection immunity, low vaccination rates, and low hospital capacities, probably w/in a couple weeks. Big cities will be fine though with more of everything lacking above.