Will you get vaccinated?

[QUOTE=JustTheDad;1669481013]What's that supposed to prove? Clinical trials weren't testing the vaccines for prevention of transmission. We studying them for safety and efficacy. The viral load someone else is exposed to does affect transmission, but clinical trials don't study R0 and Re. They can't, but we know vaccines affect R0 and Re from population studies, but drug companies don't run those studies. That statement is wasn't news to anyone.[/QUOTE]

It shows the whole argument for vaccination wasn’t just about yourself but for Grandma was false.

[QUOTE=GrouchyUSMC;1669489263]It shows the whole argument for vaccination wasn’t just about yourself but for Grandma was false.[/QUOTE]Also shows the entire basis for Vaccine Passports was false. (The idea was you could do X if vaccinated, but not if unvaccinated.)

[QUOTE=JustTheDad;1669481013] That statement is wasn't news to anyone.[/QUOTE]

And for a poster to NOW say "well, that's not news" is a total cop out. At the time, it was all about taking care of others. Seems like someone pretty well known said "If you have the vaccine, you won't get COVID"." Yea, we know that is not true now, but the drug companies let other spread their lies.

Again, if you claimed to be following the science, you were merely following the fables. Not the same thing.

[QUOTE=GrouchyUSMC;1669489263]It shows the whole argument for vaccination wasn’t just about yourself but for Grandma was false.[/QUOTE]

The argument was never dependent on Pfizer’s clinical trial data. We had evidence that the vaccines reduced the risk of infection in the first quarter of 2021, from different studies in different countries, and well before any vaccine mandates in the US.

[QUOTE=Reliance012;1669499493]The argument was never dependent on Pfizer’s clinical trial data. We had evidence that the vaccines reduced the risk of infection in the first quarter of 2021, from different studies in different countries, and well before any vaccine mandates in the US.[/QUOTE]

Correct. For those who were vaccinated it could reduce symptoms and your chance of being infected. The “protect others” argument is where it falls flat and why so many mandatory vaccination requirements for employment are being overturned.

[QUOTE=GrouchyUSMC;1669489263]It shows the whole argument for vaccination wasn’t just about yourself but for Grandma was false.[/QUOTE]

No, unfortunately, that video is very misleading. Intentionally so I think.

The trials Pfizer ran were to prove the vaccine was safe and effective. They weren't asked to prove it decreased transmission. Pharma companies don't do that type of study.
But just because Pfizer didn't conduct those studies doesn't mean their vaccine didn't lower R0 and Re which are measures of transmissibility. It just means Pfizer didn't run the studies, and honestly, that wasn't their mandate so why would they?

BUT, other groups did run studies on that, and the decrease is impressive.

[url]https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2116597[/url]

I want to point out, however, that even though that study is well done and showed the vaccine decreased the risk of transmission by 'about half, we shouldn't conclude it was all due to the vaccine. It may also be that people who were getting the vaccine were better about wearing masks and isolating than people who were against it, so maybe they put more effort into protecting Grandma. The opposite is also possible, it could be the people who didn't get the vaccine knew they needed to keep Grandma safe and since they didn't trust the vaccine, they were better about staying away from her if they were sick. There are always confounders and variables we can't control for, so you have to be careful about what conclusions you draw from any single study.

I don't think workplace mandates got tossed because there wasn't evidence. There was. I think they got tossed because it's an invasion of privacy and free will.

Edit( Congrats on snagging the 7000 USMC)

My wife has a list of health issues including (amongst other) asthma and some inflammatory/rheumatology issue that mean her medication mildly suppresses her immune system. In short she's mostly healthy normal but COVID or flu would likely be much worse for her that an ordinary person. As a result she got a COVID jab yesterday, they were giving them out at same time as flu jab (we are starting to treat COVID and flu as the same over here) but she declined and will have flu jab separately in a few weeks time as she was nervous about having too many things as same time.

I'm pleased to report that she hasn't grown a pair, or had a leg fall off, or any other tin foil hat conspiracy side effect... ... Well not so far anyway.
I'll report back if she does.

[QUOTE=OldFartTom;1669550833]My wife has a list of health issues including (amongst other) asthma and some inflammatory/rheumatology issue that mean her medication mildly suppresses her immune system. In short she's mostly healthy normal but COVID or flu would likely be much worse for her that an ordinary person. As a result she got a COVID jab yesterday, they were giving them out at same time as flu jab (we are starting to treat COVID and flu as the same over here) but she declined and will have flu jab separately in a few weeks time as she was nervous about having too many things as same time.

I'm pleased to report that she hasn't grown a pair, or had a leg fall off, or any other tin foil hat conspiracy side effect... ... Well not so far anyway.
I'll report back if she does.[/QUOTE]

The penis grows in about 6 months later. That's the problem with this "experimental" vaccine that was "rushed".

[QUOTE=mgftp;1669584813]The penis grows in about 6 months later. That's the problem with this "experimental" vaccine that was "rushed".[/QUOTE]

Woah, you grew a second one? (I didn't even get another inch on the one I already had, or maybe I did and it was such a minimal increase that I didn't notice)

So in Utah, can you get a permit for a second wife if you can demonstrate a reason why you need one?

So just when I thought I was able to put this topic in the back of my mind, I read this article.


[url]https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-nightmare-xbb-covid-variant-that-beats-our-immunity-is-finally-here[/url]

[QUOTE=mgftp;1669584813]The penis grows in about 6 months later. That's the problem with this "experimental" vaccine that was "rushed".[/QUOTE]

My one penis got me in so much fun and trouble over the years I can't even begin to imagine having 2

[QUOTE=x-trainer ben;1669602233]So just when I thought I was able to put this topic in the back of my mind, I read this article.


[url]https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-nightmare-xbb-covid-variant-that-beats-our-immunity-is-finally-here[/url][/QUOTE]


Crazy eh ben?




I was visiting a friend in an apartment complex this morning, I heard some fellow across the way coughing up a lung, after the third time in a half hour, I said someone must having a good toke over there.

She said he had covid 6 months ago and have been getting these coughing fits ever since. That would really suck, the poor bass turd didn't sound like he was having any fun at all.

I think I finally got COVID about a month ago. Heard a lot of friends report the same. Prob new variant?

Slight sore throat, a few hours of chills, congestion and headaches followed. I never get headaches ever. Pretty mild overall though.

Didn't get tested. Don't care. Stayed at home like any sane person should.

[QUOTE=mtpockets;1669605593]My one penis got me in so much fun and trouble over the years I can't even begin to imagine having 2




Crazy eh ben?




I was visiting a friend in an apartment complex this morning, I heard some fellow across the way coughing up a lung, after the third time in a half hour, I said someone must having a good toke over there.

She said he had covid 6 months ago and have been getting these coughing fits ever since. That would really suck, the poor bass turd didn't sound like he was having any fun at all.[/QUOTE]

Yeah friends are telling me about "long covid" symptoms and they suck.

i really wish that they would stop fkng around with this stuff.

[url]https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-11323677/Outrage-Boston-University-CREATES-Covid-strain-80-kill-rate.html[/url]

[QUOTE=_zman;1669608883]Stayed at home like any sane person should.[/QUOTE]

This is the best thing that came out of pandemic. Less people show up at work or school sneezing and doing their best to cough up a lung.

[QUOTE=CommitmentRulz;1669489413]Also shows the entire basis for Vaccine Passports was false. (The idea was you could do X if vaccinated, but not if unvaccinated.)



And for a poster to NOW say "well, that's not news" is a total cop out. At the time, it was all about taking care of others. Seems like someone pretty well known said "If you have the vaccine, you won't get COVID"." Yea, we know that is not true now, but the drug companies let other spread their lies.

Again, if you claimed to be following the science, you were merely following the fables. Not the same thing.[/QUOTE]The whole basis for all of the mitigation efforts was to spare healthcare resources and prevent hospital overruns like what happened in the first days in China and Italy. You can do that by preventing the spread, but also by lowering hospitalization rates for infected people. The industry studies by Pfizer looked at this - does the vaccine boost the immune response and help prevent serious cases. And the conclusion to that study is that it definitely did. They didn't test whether it also slowed or prevented transmission (nothing completely prevents transmission, but there is evidence that the vaccines do help slow it).

The lockdown at first and the vaccines later all did what they were supposed to do, which is prevent overflowing hospitals with Covid patients. At this point, the omicron mutation is mild enough that we don't really have to worry about it anymore, so I don't think further boosters are really needed for all but the most vulnerable people.

[QUOTE=_zman;1669608883]I think I finally got COVID about a month ago. Heard a lot of friends report the same. Prob new variant?

Slight sore throat, a few hours of chills, congestion and headaches followed. I never get headaches ever. Pretty mild overall though.

Didn't get tested. Don't care. Stayed at home like any sane person should.[/QUOTE]

Glad you got over it easily Zman

2nd booster scheduled for Fri aftn. Wish me luck fellas.

[QUOTE=ljimd;1669622433]2nd booster scheduled for Fri aftn. Wish me luck fellas.[/QUOTE]

best of luck!
no drama

[QUOTE=mtpockets;1669619613]Glad you got over it easily Zman[/QUOTE]

Thx bro

must spread some reps around before giving to mtpockets again

[QUOTE=Jayarbie;1669617533]

The lockdown at first and the vaccines later all did what they were supposed to do, which is prevent overflowing hospitals with Covid patients.[/QUOTE]

Not really, the worst place to be during a plandemic is isolated in a complex with 100’s of people.

These buildings are are what gubmit wants everyone to live in.

[QUOTE=x-trainer ben;1669610853]Yeah friends are telling me about "long covid" symptoms and they suck.

i really wish that they would stop fkng around with this stuff.

[url]https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-11323677/Outrage-Boston-University-CREATES-Covid-strain-80-kill-rate.html[/url][/QUOTE]

Read that earlier today and all I thought was "Why?"
Is there any reason we need to merge the 2 & come up with something that infects easier and kills 80% of the hosts? This is in a nutshell gain of function which I thought was outlawed?

[QUOTE=x-trainer ben;1669610853]Yeah friends are telling me about "long covid" symptoms and they suck.

i really wish that they would stop fkng around with this stuff.
[/QUOTE]

My healthy 21 year old son is vaxed and boosted, caught it, was deathly ill for 2-3 days then a lingering cough for weeks.

I was sick for months from the shot, I'm done with Covid shots and boosters. Having a flu shot Friday though, that never gave me anything but a sore shoulder.

[QUOTE=ljimd;1669622433]2nd booster scheduled for Fri aftn. Wish me luck fellas.[/QUOTE]

Good luck Brah. When you coming to visit again? I got a beautiful new old Ibanez and a pretty swag electric setup for both electric and acoustic.

[QUOTE=LWW;1669482273]I said cardio using weights, you guys just can’t seem to grasp that one.

Look here, the reason why the old time bodybuilders were in better health was because high rep work like high rep squats were a common staple. These days they only do 20 reppers for a few weeks out the year. Steve Reeves did breathing squats all year around.

That’s also why the 1950s bbers had the best build rib cages.

We see evidence right now of cardio people dying from the Rona but not strength people the exception is steroids users. At my gym the strength people recovered fastest from Rona.

Keep reading your data, I’ll go by the real world, daddy.......[/QUOTE]


Covid cultists will do and say anything to cover up their own lies and beliefs.

It’s kinda like the followers of Charles Manson.

“Oh he didn’t really kill those people. Blah blah blah.”

I TOLD YOU SO.

THE MOST PAINFUL WORDS IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE NEXT TO YOU CAN TRUST GUBMINT.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/ufrl93n.png[/img]

omg that is funny

Damn pocketa, I didn't know you lived in Canada.

[QUOTE=mgftp;1669779053]Damn pocketa, I didn't know you lived in Canada.[/QUOTE]


LMAO our unvaxxed product knows no borders, delivering to all of North America one load at a time.




[img]https://i.imgur.com/LGQKjHs.png[/img]

[QUOTE=mtpockets;1669605593]My one penis got me in so much fun and trouble over the years I can't even begin to imagine having 2
.[/QUOTE]


So what did you do Pancakes? My guess you got caught rubbing it in a school zone or you didn’t tell your “John” you had one and you got your head rattled.........

CAMBRIDGE, MA / ACCESSWIRE / October 19, 2022 / Moderna, Inc., (NASDAQ:MRNA) a biotechnology company pioneering messenger RNA (mRNA) therapeutics and vaccines, today announced new clinical data on its bivalent Omicron-containing booster, mRNA-1273.214. Ninety days after administration as a fourth booster dose in previously vaccinated and boosted participants, a 50 µg booster dose of mRNA-1273.214 elicited a superior neutralizing antibody response against Omicron BA.1 when compared to a 50 µg booster dose of mRNA-1273 in all participants regardless of prior infection. Superior performance against Omicron BA.1 was also durable, with higher antibody titers sustained through three months.

In addition, mRNA-1273.214 demonstrated significantly higher neutralizing antibody responses against Omicron BA.4/BA.5 compared to mRNA-1273 28 days after administration, as previously reported. Potent responses were also seen against Omicron BA.2.75 28 days after administration, suggesting that the bivalent booster elicits broad cross-neutralization against Omicron variants.



[url]https://finance.yahoo.com/news/90-day-analysis-shows-moderna-120000751.html[/url]

Wha?? OK it's encouraging to see positive data but... a 4th booster?? Does that mean a 5th shot or a 6th shot? either way that's insane, were talking less than 2 years and they're discussing so many shots. I understand it's a Corona virus and evades immune response so will be more difficult than some other vaccinations but let's pause for a moment -- 5 shots in 18 months, this just can't be right. I'm generally pro Vax, but still questioning this

[QUOTE=OldFartTom;1669851813]Wha?? OK it's encouraging to see positive data but... a 4th booster?? Does that mean a 5th shot or a 6th shot? either way that's insane, were talking less than 2 years and they're discussing so many shots. I understand it's a Corona virus and evades immune response so will be more difficult than some other vaccinations but let's pause for a moment -- 5 shots in 18 months, this just can't be right. I'm generally pro Vax, but still questioning this[/QUOTE]


I suspect less will be taken once this happens in the US....


Pfizer plans to sell the Covid vaccine it developed with BioNTech at $110 to $130 per dose for teens and adults once the U.S. government stops paying for them, the drugmaker said.

[url]https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/pfizer-plans-sell-covid-vaccines-110-130-dose-rcna53382?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma[/url]

[url]https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/higher-risk-myocarditis-death-covid-vaccines-et/?itm_term=home[/url]

Lots of otherwise healthy people, mostly young, just keeling over and dying. Lots of partial facial paralysis happening. All in vaxxed people. Of course there are unkown side effects that occur from a shot that really didn't go through all the necessary trials. That's why the government attached a no liability waiver to the use of these shots.

This stuff will continue to leak out, despite suppression. It's a worldwide issue. Japan and Italy have docs issuing statements about the dangers associated with these shots. Trump got behind these shots in the midst of a crisis that negatively impacted what was a strong economy and amazingly low unemployment. He was wrong to do so, but he was desperate. The problem I've always had is the mandates and pressure put on us to get the jabs. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

I tried to read the Japanese study but the way that they display or present the numbers is totally confusing to this reader.

[url]www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.10.13.22281036v1.full.pdf[/url]

They say the numbers are high but one says 6.69 and i cant tell out of how many subjects?
Is it 6/1400, 6/100,000 or 6/millions?
totally confused

[QUOTE=x-trainer ben;1670067183]I tried to read the Japanese study but the way that they display or present the numbers is totally confusing to this reader.

[url]www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.10.13.22281036v1.full.pdf[/url]

They say the numbers are high but one says 6.69 and i cant tell out of how many subjects?
Is it 6/1400, 6/100,000 or 6/millions?
totally confused[/QUOTE]


From what I read a little while back the risk of Myocarditis was substantially higher from Covid itself compared to getting it from the vaccine, perhaps the gap is narrowing.

[QUOTE=mtpockets;1670067633]From what I read a little while back the risk of Myocarditis was substantially higher from Covid itself compared to getting it from the vaccine, perhaps the gap is narrowing.[/QUOTE]

That is what Just The Dad said here, plus we do do not know what vaxx product Japan used for their people(which brand) so it makes it really tough to compare apples to apples.
They compared the myo deaths pre covid, to deaths from myo during covid.

[QUOTE=mtpockets;1670067633]From what I read a little while back the risk of Myocarditis was substantially higher from Covid itself compared to getting it from the vaccine, perhaps the gap is narrowing.[/QUOTE]Chicke or the egg. My main point is that risks are/were unknown and the pressure and/or straight up mandates to get shot are/were wrong. Sterilization is also coming out in greater numbers. Caused by COVID or the shot?

[QUOTE=Bando;1669644273]
Good luck Brah. When you coming to visit again? I got a beautiful new old Ibanez and a pretty swag electric setup for both electric and acoustic.[/QUOTE]

6 days into covid booster #2. Nothing so far.

Was by your place in June but sick relatives and Brazilian friends ate up my
time. Maybe around the holidays. Dunno?

[QUOTE=KeepItMoving;1670164963]Chicke or the egg. My main point is that risks are/were unknown and the pressure and/or straight up mandates to get shot are/were wrong. Sterilization is also coming out in greater numbers. Caused by COVID or the shot?[/QUOTE]

Risks were and are quite well known. More so than for any other vaccine except perhaps flu if you consolidate the data.

The sterility some people are stuck with post COVID is hopefully transient. In the studies I saw on sperm counts it did seem to be recovering after several months. None tracked it back to pre-COVID levels so it may not recover fully. I didn't find any data showing it was being found from the vaccine alone, and that fits since it's only one antigen and in lower concentrations. Post COVID ED is also being found which fits with the vascular complications. Again, I didn't see anything associated with the vaccine. Doesn't mean it couldn't have happened, just means it's not as easy to find because the incidence is lower or there are too many confounders.

There haven't been any new or surprising findings regarding the vaccines. You get a little bit of one antigen, an attenuated spike protein, instead of a lot of all 29 or so proteins that are in the virus. The mRNA vaccines are amazingly safe compared to previous vaccine types. It's almost impossible for them to have side effects the virus doesn't cause at a higher frequency/severity. Again, doesn't mean they don't have any, and I can't comment on repeat exposures. Since we ran some of the vaccine and med trials for COVID, I obviously have a lot of friends who are firm believes, and a few have had 5 shots and still plan to get the bivalent "booster". I consider that excessive (aka, they're kinda nuts!)

Nobody here liked how the vaccine became a political issue and obviously anything caused by the spike protein could potentially be associated with the vaccine. Granted the vaccine seems to cause issues to a lesser degree than having an actual infection with the virus, but if there's cross antigenicity, how could it not happen.

That "to a lesser degree" aspect of the vaccine also could potentially change with continued booster shots. Again, something I haven't seen data supporting, but it's possible a booster shot could result in a higher antigen load than a sub-clinical infection you fought off because you were already immunized. There are a lot of variables, and I don't think anyone is studying that, but they are monitoring a lot of vaccinated subjects. Maybe some evidence will show up and crash Pfizer and Moderna's stocks. Guess we'll see.

Ultimately there's no way to avoid being exposed to that antigen several times over the course of your life, other than possibly living in a bubble, so minimizing your risks with the vaccine made sense. Continuing to expose yourself to the antigen by vaccine? I don't know. I'm about to travel to Europe, so I may get a booster. Haven't decided. I will get a flu shot.

[QUOTE=ljimd;1670168073]6 days into covid booster #2. Nothing so far.

Was by your place in June but sick relatives and Brazilian friends ate up my
time. Maybe around the holidays. Dunno?[/QUOTE]

Should be around except for Christmas week.

They stopped reporting and collecting data here but the lines at the pharmacy are long and the cold medicine section looks like a grocery store after a call for a foot of snow.
I asked the pharmacist what is going on and she said we are in a state of emergency here. We have rsv for kids, the flu, and Covid-19 all at once.
The gf has covid and has had a strong reaction to it so i was getting paxlovid for her.

this chart surprised me.

[url]https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-11431521/CDC-says-tracking-new-mild-ultra-vaccine-resisitant-BN-1-Covid-variant.html[/url]

[QUOTE=x-trainer ben;1671206103]They stopped reporting and collecting data here but the lines at the pharmacy are long and the cold medicine section looks like a grocery store after a call for a foot of snow.
I asked the pharmacist what is going on and she said we are in a state of emergency here. We have rsv for kids, the flu, and Covid-19 all at once.
The gf has covid and has had a strong reaction to it so i was getting paxlovid for her.

this chart surprised me.

[url]https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-11431521/CDC-says-tracking-new-mild-ultra-vaccine-resisitant-BN-1-Covid-variant.html[/url][/QUOTE]

I may have gotten it a 2nd time last week. Just a few days worth of slight headaches and minor congestion. I never get headaches, so I'll just assume it's covid. Never get headaches with colds. Hit the Chaga hard upon first symptoms and kicked all symptoms in 3-4 days.

I'm planning to take the cat in for its annual vaccinations Saturday in 2 weeks. A range of "experimental" vaccines that have only been used on millions of animals for years so the outcome is in completely unknown territory.

Poor thing will probably be dead on 20 years or less, every single cat that's been vaccinated has died or will go on to die at some point. Sorry anti vax'ers.

Also I gave it worm treatment recently. Sorry anti-dewormers.

Looking back at this it shows how I'm totally drinking the cool aid of big vet, should I feel ashamed?

[QUOTE=OldFartTom;1671259263]
Looking back at this it shows how I'm totally drinking the cool aid of big vet, should I feel ashamed?[/QUOTE]

You mean for owning a cat?


;)

[QUOTE=OldFartTom;1671259263]I'm planning to take the cat in for its annual vaccinations Saturday in 2 weeks. A range of "experimental" vaccines that have only been used on millions of animals for years so the outcome is in completely unknown territory.

Poor thing will probably be dead on 20 years or less, every single cat that's been vaccinated has died or will go on to die at some point. Sorry anti vax'ers.

Also I gave it worm treatment recently. Sorry anti-dewormers.

Looking back at this it shows how I'm totally drinking the cool aid of big vet, should I feel ashamed?[/QUOTE]

whaaa it was rushed, whaaa no 10 years of research, oh yeah they did call it "operation warp speed" and every lab in the world was working on it sharing info.

Two years and this thread is still alive.

Good lawd.

The criminals in suit lied.

High cases of Sudden Adult Death Syndrome.

Myocarditis.

Accelerated cancer.

Miscarriages.

Not to mention the damage caused by the plandemic global shutdown.

And people still support the jab.

Unreal.

Hello. The criminals want amnesty. What does that tell you.

[QUOTE=NorwichGrad;1671281213]Two years and this thread is still alive.

Good lawd.

The criminals in suit lied.

High cases of Sudden Adult Death Syndrome.

Myocarditis.

Accelerated cancer.

Miscarriages.

Not to mention the damage caused by the plandemic global shutdown.

And people still support the jab.

Unreal.

Hello. The criminals want amnesty. What does that tell you.[/QUOTE]

Sad is what it is. Sucked being part of the fringe minority at the time, but my gut often isn't wrong.

Luckily I worked in healthcare at the time to witness all the shenanigans go down. Man was it fascinating to watch the authoritarians work along side their lawyers to squash us plebs. The endless contradictions and data manipulation etc, killing people in nursing homes with their unproven strategies, divided the country/families/friends, parents couldn't see their kids born, parents/spouse died alone. Many documentaries will be made regarding this (if it's allowed), from a personal health perspective, personal rights, workers' rights, kids being behind in their education, all the local/generational restaurants and businesses closing after being open for 120+ years, social media regulations, media lies etc.

Anyone that was part of this should be extremely ashamed. I'd prefer more than that to happen, but I'm not an authoritarian.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/9AQxQcL.png[/img]

Looks like OldFartToms face got messed upped by the Covid vaccine

No. My teeth are like that because I'm British and drawing attention to them like that makes you a racist

[QUOTE=_zman;1671281633]Sad is what it is. Sucked being part of the fringe minority at the time, but my gut often isn't wrong.

Luckily I worked in healthcare at the time to witness all the shenanigans go down. Man was it fascinating to watch the authoritarians work along side their lawyers to squash us plebs. The endless contradictions and data manipulation etc, killing people in nursing homes with their unproven strategies, divided the country/families/friends, parents couldn't see their kids born, parents/spouse died alone. Many documentaries will be made regarding this (if it's allowed), from a personal health perspective, personal rights, workers' rights, kids being behind in their education, all the local/generational restaurants and businesses closing after being open for 120+ years, social media regulations, media lies etc.

Anyone that was part of this should be extremely ashamed. I'd prefer more than that to happen, but I'm not an authoritarian.[/QUOTE]

If i wasn't personally witness to 2 severe, extreme cases, then i would happily believe all of that above.
But, being personally involved and helping really sick family and gf( doing 2 tests for her myself) tends to skew what i read online.
It is what it is.

[QUOTE=x-trainer ben;1671296543]If i wasn't personally witness to 2 severe, extreme cases, then i would happily believe all of that above.
But, being personally involved and helping really sick family and gf( doing 2 tests for her myself) tends to skew what i read online.
It is what it is.[/QUOTE]

Sorry to hear about your GF ben, I hope that she is on the mend. With the help you have provided it's great that you escaped the virus so far. You must be doing something right.