Will you get vaccinated?

So if someone has an underlying health issue being managed successfully who would have been expected to continue living a long and otherwise healthy life -- their death doesn't count?

I hope if you exclude deaths from Covid that don't meet your personal health criteria, that you do the same from flu deaths. If you did that then nearly nobody ever died from flu (elderly or underlying health conditions excluded of course..).

I only used data excluding Scotland and Northern Ireland because I had it to hand for both flu and Covid, and it was actual recent data gathered comparably, not use distorting figures that counted on different basis or systematically excluded stuff

[QUOTE=Paul Kreul;1633253243]...And yes, the PCR test is utter bullchit. Here is Kerry Mullins (the creator of the test) explaining it is a BACTERIA test..not a viral test.[/QUOTE] Paul you posted that exact same text before, copy/paste. We then went into a tedious discussion that it detects DNA (and RNA) in both bacteria viruses etc the same, and the test is of particular benefit for viruses because unlike bacteria you can't grow a colony on a Petri dish and look under a microscope. I've seen PCR method used to detect all sorts of viruses for a long while before this Covid issue started.

[b]Please let's not go over this old ground, again[/b] we've both made these points already in this post, Groundhog Day!

[QUOTE=OldFartTom;1633299783]viruses because unlike bacteria you can't grow a colony on a Petri dish and look under a microscope.[/QUOTE]

You can culture viruses but it's a bit of a pain. Back when SARS-1 hit and we didn't know what we were dealing with, just about everyone was using electron microscopy to try identify an agent. With PCR, you have to trust the primer set(s) that you are using is specific to what you're actually trying to amplify.

I don't know if there is a study that shows vaccinated people are less risk to bats or not, but people are requested not to sneeze on bats. Those of you on this forum currently sneezing on bats - please stop doing that, a study has confirmed this is a risk for them.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/PZDkFvx.png[/img]

Edit: yes the graphic is intended as serious

Is this thing still a pandemic??

I knew a bunch of people who got this back in November, old, young etc.

Everything seems near normal now except you have to mask in stores and that started 6 months prior to November.

Weird....,,,,.....

[QUOTE=LWW;1633326263]Is this thing still a pandemic??

I knew a bunch of people who got this back in November, old, young etc.

Everything seems near normal now except you have to mask in stores and that started 6 months prior to November.

Weird....,,,,.....[/QUOTE]
Yes indeed.

[QUOTE=ChazWood;1633367343]Yes indeed.[/QUOTE]

Well that don't tell me much, I wouldn't take a fuking korn/peanut from your turd:D

[QUOTE=LWW;1633376853]Well that don't tell me much, I wouldn't take a fuking korn/peanut from your turd:D[/QUOTE]
That's wise.

I hope it didn't take you too long to learn not to go picking stuff from $hit. Human or animal. :D

[QUOTE=OldFartTom;1633299783]So if someone has an underlying health issue being managed successfully who would have been expected to continue living a long and otherwise healthy life -- their death doesn't count?

I hope if you exclude deaths from Covid that don't meet your personal health criteria, that you do the same from flu deaths. If you did that then nearly nobody ever died from flu (elderly or underlying health conditions excluded of course..).

I only used data excluding Scotland and Northern Ireland because I had it to hand for both flu and Covid, and it was actual recent data gathered comparably, not use distorting figures that counted on different basis or systematically excluded stuff

Paul you posted that exact same text before, copy/paste. We then went into a tedious discussion that it detects DNA (and RNA) in both bacteria viruses etc the same, and the test is of particular benefit for viruses because unlike bacteria you can't grow a colony on a Petri dish and look under a microscope. I've seen PCR method used to detect all sorts of viruses for a long while before this Covid issue started.

[b]Please let's not go over this old ground, again[/b] we've both made these points already in this post, Groundhog Day![/QUOTE]

Tom ..you are free to believe whatever you want to about the PCR test. Personally I’m going to take the words of the actual creator of the test,& trust him when he says that his test is not a viral test..but rather a bacteria test.

[QUOTE=Paul Kreul;1633378773]Tom ..you are free to believe whatever you want to about the PCR test. Personally I’m going to take the words of the actual creator of the test,& trust him when he says that his test is not a viral test..but rather a bacteria test.[/QUOTE] personally, the same as fact check websites I don't believe the quote on ******** was actually said by him [url]https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN24420X[/url] but that aside, he seems to have been quite a character, the kind of person it would have been interesting to have known in real life. Did you ever read his obituary? [url]https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/kary-mullis--inventor-of-the-pcr-technique--dies-66256/amp[/url]

[QUOTE=OldFartTom;1633384833]personally, the same as fact check websites I don't believe the quote on ******** was actually said by him [url]https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN24420X[/url] but that aside, he seems to have been quite a character, the kind of person it would have been interesting to have known in real life. Did you ever read his obituary? [url]https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/kary-mullis--inventor-of-the-pcr-technique--dies-66256/amp[/url][/QUOTE]

Well I didn’t link ********, I linked an interview with him on YouTube & then another on Twitter. I don’t have a ******** account so I’m not sure what you are looking at.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=ZmZft4fXhQQ[/url]

[url]https://mobile.twitter.com/robinmonotti/status/1336923426259349504[/url]

[QUOTE=Paul Kreul;1633397393]Well I didn’t link ********, I linked an interview with him on YouTube & then another on Twitter. I don’t have a ******** account so I’m not sure what you are looking at.[/QUOTE]

Have you met Supramax? You two would make a cute couple.

[QUOTE=mtpockets;1633397513]Have you met Supramax? You two would make a cute couple.[/QUOTE]

Can’t say that I have. Forgive me for taking the word os an actual scientist of whom we are using his methods to test a so called “virus”, rather than the words of unanimous poster on a dying ghey Indian body building forum.

Hard to believe, I understand

[QUOTE=Paul Kreul;1633399283]Can’t say that I have...[/QUOTE]

I've strongly disagreed with you in the past, but a heads up, anyways :): since neither one of us is in any of the old boy "I love you, if you love me" mutual admiration cliques on the over 35 forum, it's okay to ignore stupid comments. :)

[QUOTE=supramax;1633400133]I've strongly disagreed with you in the past, but a heads up, anyways :): since neither one of us is in any of the old boy "I love you, if you love me" mutual admiration cliques on the over 35 forum, it's okay to ignore stupid comments. :)[/QUOTE]

Guess I don’t know the etiquette in this sub-forum lol. BodyHard’s threads usually grab my attention, luv that guy’s threads.

Any word on a non gmo vaccine coming out? Me and a lot of my hippie friends prefer going the holistic route.

[QUOTE=BlackJack619;1633402023]Any word on a non gmo vaccine coming out? Me and a lot of my hippie friends prefer going the holistic route.[/QUOTE]

Vitamin D has shown to be the most effective against Coronavirus..but there’s little money to be made, so you won’t hear much about that..

“Vitamin D Deficiency and Outcome of COVID-19 Patients“

[url]https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/12/9/2757[/url]

[QUOTE=Paul Kreul;1633402393]Vitamin D has shown to be the most effective against Coronavirus..but there’s little money to be made, so you won’t hear much about that..

“Vitamin D Deficiency and Outcome of COVID-19 Patients“

[url]https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/12/9/2757[/url][/QUOTE]

Not so fast. Here's a recent study that's yet to be peer reviewed, but concludes that Vitamin D offers no appreciable reduction in Covid severity.

[url=https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.08.20190975v5.full.pdf]Vitamin D supplements may offer no Covid benefits, data suggests[/url]

Which sucks if true cuz I'm all aboot popping Vitamin D!

[QUOTE=BlackJack619;1633402023]Any word on a non gmo vaccine coming out? Me and a lot of my hippie friends prefer going the holistic route.[/QUOTE]

I'd be interested in that. In the mean time, eat raw garlic everyday.

[QUOTE=ChazWood;1633403583]Not so fast. Here's a recent study that's yet to be peer reviewed, but concludes that Vitamin D offers no appreciable reduction in Covid severity.

[url=https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.08.20190975v5.full.pdf]Vitamin D supplements may offer no Covid benefits, data suggests[/url]

Which sucks if true cuz I'm all aboot popping Vitamin D![/QUOTE]

Bro...
From your link..

“Further, our results do not apply to individuals with vitamin D deficiency.”


....

[QUOTE=Paul Kreul;1633397393]Well I didn’t link ********, I linked an interview with him on YouTube & then another on Twitter. I don’t have a ******** account so I’m not sure what you are looking at.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=ZmZft4fXhQQ[/url]

[url]https://mobile.twitter.com/robinmonotti/status/1336923426259349504[/url][/QUOTE] Yeah I saw that interview. He repeatedly states that PCR is not being misused (in detecting HIV virus) what he is objecting to in the interview is he believes HIV isn't the cause of AIDS and therefore testing that way for HIV is misleading. Shame he died in 2019 as he'd have been able to give opinions on detecting "Covid" by PCR based tests for sars-cov2. Not saying I endorse all his opinions, but he was an interesting guy.

[QUOTE=Paul Kreul;1633402393]Vitamin D has shown to be the most effective against Coronavirus..[/QUOTE] oddly enough the thing that actually is proven to prevent infection is nicotine inhaled. And there definitely is money made by that, but it may conflict with other public health concerns

[QUOTE=BlackJack619;1633402023]Any word on a non gmo vaccine coming out? Me and a lot of my hippie friends prefer going the holistic route.[/QUOTE] The astra zeneca one is vegan if that's any help (a lot of vaccines have egg traces, that one doesn't)

[QUOTE=OldFartTom;1633409903]Yeah I saw that interview. He repeatedly states that PCR is not being misused (in detecting HIV virus) what he is objecting to in the interview is he believes HIV isn't the cause of AIDS and therefore testing that way for HIV is misleading. Shame he died in 2019 as he'd have been able to give opinions on detecting "Covid" by PCR based tests for sars-cov2. Not saying I endorse all his opinions, but he was an interesting guy.

oddly enough the thing that actually is proven to prevent infection is nicotine inhaled. And there definitely is money made by that, but it may conflict with other public health concerns

The astra zeneca one is vegan if that's any help (a lot of vaccines have egg traces, that one doesn't)[/QUOTE]

I think he made his views pretty well known regarding viral testing & PCR..

“PCR is just a process..it does not tell you that you are sick."”

“Those guys [Fauci]have got an agenda, which is not what we would like them to have, being that we pay for them to take care of our health..They make up their own rules & they change them when they want to"

PCR IS NOT A TEST. That’s the whole problem with using it. It’s a DNA magnification tool useful for research purposes only. We need to stop calling it a test. PCR magnification research tool, not a diagnostic tool. Not even binary - positive or negative. Completely subjective.

[QUOTE=Paul Kreul;1633413453]...PCR IS NOT A TEST. ...[/QUOTE] true but it is a process used as the basis for the overall testing process and in real life the term is used synonymously as a type of test. Like I don't tell people that they don't have "biceps" on their arm because they are biceps brachii (distinguish from biceps femoris) I think it's unreasonable to say that PCR doesn't mean testing, technically/pedantically maybe, but not useful. Oh and it is RNA as well as DNA.

In the interview you linked (which is a good link thanks!) he never disputes that PCR can't be used when testing for viruses, he even says several times that the process is *not* being misused (when testing for the virus HIV) he does dispute the relation between virus testing and testing for illness in the case of AIDS. I understand that you are not agreeing with public health policy on Covid - I respect that (but don't share all your opinions).

What I dispute is that he stated in the interview you linked that PCR is for bacteria not viruses. In the interview doesn't say that and this clip is being used by people (mainly on ********) completely out of context and misleadingly

[QUOTE=OldFartTom;1633409903]...The astra zeneca one is vegan if that's any help (a lot of vaccines have egg traces, that one doesn't)[/QUOTE]

Thanks for that information. I'll get the vaccine, regardless, but if I can swing it, I'll get that one.

[QUOTE=OldFartTom;1633419213]true but it is a process used as the basis for the overall testing process and in real life the term is used synonymously as a type of test. Like I don't tell people that they don't have "biceps" on their arm because they are biceps brachii (distinguish from biceps femoris) I think it's unreasonable to say that PCR doesn't mean testing, technically/pedantically maybe, but not useful. Oh and it is RNA as well as DNA.

In the interview you linked (which is a good link thanks!) he never disputes that PCR can't be used when testing for viruses, he even says several times that the process is *not* being misused (when testing for the virus HIV) he does dispute the relation between virus testing and testing for illness in the case of AIDS. I understand that you are not agreeing with public health policy on Covid - I respect that (but don't share all your opinions).

What I dispute is that he stated in the interview you linked that PCR is for bacteria not viruses. In the interview doesn't say that and this clip is being used by people (mainly on ********) completely out of context and misleadingly[/QUOTE]

He also stated that one can also over load the process with any given amount of bacteria & come up POSITIVE for HIV. How one can think that the PCR can be used for Coronavirus ..or any virus exactly was exactly his concern. It measures the amount of bacteria..& this is one of the reasons why he despised Faucci, he would continually misuse the PCR test to skew positive results.

Also to claim he doesn’t say “misuse” is..well..technically yes, but..he stated several times how easily & can be Mis- interrupted..which is a misuse of the test.

This is why it is absurd to wear a mask. Not only will a mask have no effect on viral transmission, bu you are also now testing an individual with an absurd amount of bacteria in their nostrils that would regularly be cleansed.

The shills are strong itt.

[QUOTE=OldFartTom;1633409903]
oddly enough the thing that actually is proven to prevent infection is nicotine inhaled. And there definitely is money made by that, but it may conflict with other public health concerns

[/QUOTE]

I read that in a study as well. Very interesting.

I believe 84% was the statistic of those with covid in a hospital that were vitamin D deficient.

Edit: found some studies on nicotine and covid [url]https://www.cureus.com/articles/41018-does-nicotine-prevent-cytokine-storms-in-covid-19[/url]

"..Vitamin D deficiency is very common. It's estimated that about 1 billion people worldwide have low levels of the vitamin in their blood ( 2 ). According to a 2011 study, 41.6% of adults in the US are deficient. This number goes up to 69.2% in Hispanics and 82.1% in African-Americans ( 3 )..." [url]https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/vitamin-d-deficiency-symptoms[/url]

Maybe vitamin D is a factor or maybe just that African Americans are more likely to be hospitalised, there are too many variables at the same time to identify any cause and effect just from the 84% stat.

It's definitely interesting though and needs investigation

[QUOTE=Paul Kreul;1633425983]He also stated that one can also over load the process with any given amount of bacteria & come up POSITIVE for HIV. How one can think that the PCR can be used for Coronavirus ..or any virus exactly was exactly his concern. It measures the amount of bacteria..& this is one of the reasons why he despised Faucci, he would continually misuse the PCR test to skew positive results.

Also to claim he doesn’t say “misuse” is..well..technically yes, but..he stated several times how easily & can be Mis- interrupted..which is a misuse of the test.

This is why it is absurd to wear a mask. Not only will a mask have no effect on viral transmission, bu you are also now testing an individual with an absurd amount of bacteria in their nostrils that would regularly be cleansed.[/QUOTE]

When you get down to it, PCR is essentially looking for specific genetic material in a specific pattern. Genetic material is everywhere, regardless of virus, bacteria, or elephant. However, when you use a primer to select for specific sequences you greatly reduce the “things” that could have those specific nucleic acids in that specific order. It can be more selective with longer chains of genetic material, or less selective and more likely to have false positives by using a shorter chain. It’s a good presence absence method, which is what it is being used for. I’m not sure of their actual details in how the tests are done and there are a variety now including saliva run through a rPCR machine. Bottom line is, that PCR can be a tool to determine presence absence when designed and conducted correctly.

[QUOTE=ChazWood;1633403583]Not so fast. Here's a recent study that's yet to be peer reviewed, but concludes that Vitamin D offers no appreciable reduction in Covid severity.

[url=https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.08.20190975v5.full.pdf]Vitamin D supplements may offer no Covid benefits, data suggests[/url]

Which sucks if true cuz I'm all aboot popping Vitamin D![/QUOTE]

Some conflicts of interest listed, I’ll wait until it’s peer reviewed. There are likely a variety things that increase mortality rate, genetic or self-induced. It does seem random in that there have been deaths in some “normal healthy people” but that’s far less than the primary victims being advanced age with age related comorbidities, congestive heart failure etc

Say Plat, I heard a statistic where approximately 8 out of 10 people who were/are hospitalized, were/are considered overweight. Not sure if it is that high of a ratio but it does seem that weight is an elevated risk factor.

You have any stats or opinion on this?

[QUOTE=Mark1T;1633463813]Say Plat, I heard a statistic where approximately 8 out of 10 people who were/are hospitalized, were/are considered overweight. Not sure if it is that high of a ratio but it does seem that weight is an elevated risk factor.

You have any stats or opinion on this?[/QUOTE]

Certainly a high correlation from what I’ve read, but I’ve known several people significantly overweight, older, etc and they were fine. So it seems to raise the risks, but doesn’t completely determine the outcome. That would probably be typical of the population. I’m not sure they will ever release/publish any data like that honestly. Might not even be collecting it to avoid FOIA requests.

[QUOTE=Plateauplower;1633464493]Certainly a high correlation from what I’ve read, but I’ve known several people significantly overweight, older, etc and they were fine. So it seems to raise the risks, but doesn’t completely determine the outcome. That would probably be typical of the population. I’m not sure they will ever release/publish any data like that honestly. Might not even be collecting it to avoid FOIA requests.[/QUOTE]

Your logic makes sense. Appreciate it.

[QUOTE=Mark1T;1633463813]Say Plat, I heard a statistic where approximately 8 out of 10 people who were/are hospitalized, were/are considered overweight. Not sure if it is that high of a ratio but it does seem that weight is an elevated risk factor.

You have any stats or opinion on this?[/QUOTE]

Is that BMI though? Most here would be labeled overweight according to their BMI.

[QUOTE=Jtbny;1633490663]Is that BMI though?[/QUOTE]

Almost certainly. It's quick and easy and useful at a population level. I don't think enough people have elevated BMI because of increased lean mass for it to be worth anyone's effort to try to tease out that information.

[QUOTE=Jtbny;1633490663]Is that BMI though? Most here would be labeled overweight according to their BMI.[/QUOTE]

General population I would think. I do not believe that people who exercise regularly and who have a higher density of muscle are more susceptible. If anything, less susceptible.

Most of the BMI charts I've seen have the footnote: [b]DOES NOT APPLY TO BODYBUILDERS[/b]

[QUOTE=supramax;1633497593]Most of the BMI charts I've seen have the footnote: [b]DOES NOT APPLY TO BODYBUILDERS[/b][/QUOTE]
Always been an issue for me - military uses BMI, and even when I was in great shape in my 30s I was more than 40lbs over MAW (maximum allowable weight) which was essentially BMI.
Good thing I always pass tape!

That caveat is so true Supra ;)

[QUOTE=PhDPepper1111;1633500033]Always been an issue for me - military uses BMI, and even when I was in great shape in my 30s I was more than 40lbs over MAW (maximum allowable weight) which was essentially BMI.
Good thing I always pass tape!

That caveat is so true Supra ;)[/QUOTE]

I just checked one at Diabetes Canada for the hell of it. It wasn't a footnote, just an explanation: "BMI is not used for muscle builders, long distance athletes, pregnant women, the elderly or young children."

I'm 3 of those. :)

[QUOTE=supramax;1633500923]I just checked one at Diabetes Canada for the hell of it. It wasn't a footnote, just an explanation: "BMI is not used for muscle builders, long distance athletes, pregnant women, the elderly or young children."

I'm 3 of those. :)[/QUOTE]
Wait WHAT!!! You're pregnant?!?! Congrats!

[QUOTE=PhDPepper1111;1633501463]Wait WHAT!!! You're pregnant?!?! Congrats![/QUOTE]
I'm in my second childhood, too. :)

[QUOTE=supramax;1633502053]I'm in my second childhood, too. :)[/QUOTE]

I knew it!
A few of those might apply... definitely NOT anything related to distance running. That word hurts just to hear it. Ok, joking, but if I'm doing more than a hundred meters, I get on my fatbike these days. Happy plodding along for 100km on that thing, running.... not gonna happen.

[QUOTE=PhDPepper1111;1633505753]I knew it!
A few of those might apply... definitely NOT anything related to distance running. That word hurts just to hear it. Ok, joking, but if I'm doing more than a hundred meters, I get on my fatbike these days. Happy plodding along for 100km on that thing, running.... not gonna happen.[/QUOTE]

I can't express how much I love long distance running. I absolutely ****ing love it!

[QUOTE=PhDPepper1111;1633500033]Always been an issue for me - military uses BMI, and even when I was in great shape in my 30s I was more than 40lbs over MAW (maximum allowable weight) which was essentially BMI.
Good thing I always pass tape!

That caveat is so true Supra ;)[/QUOTE]

Same w/me. Pass the tape but fail the max weight.

I mentioned before but I was eligible for the vaccine because of my BMI. Now I worry my health insurance will look to jack up my rates because of that too :D

[QUOTE=supramax;1633506913]I can't express how much I love long distance running. I absolutely ****ing love it![/QUOTE]

three knee surgeries later... no thanks :)

[QUOTE=Jtbny;1633506943]Same w/me. Pass the tape but fail the max weight.

I mentioned before but I was eligible for the vaccine because of my BMI. Now I worry my health insurance will look to jack up my rates because of that too :D[/QUOTE] Oof yah double edged sword, that.

[QUOTE=PhDPepper1111;1633509213]three knee surgeries later... no thanks :)....[/QUOTE]

Check out this guys YouTube site:

[youtube]/BGv1vDcRJW0[/youtube]

[QUOTE=PhDPepper1111;1633509213]three knee surgeries later... no thanks :)[/QUOTE]

I don't doubt that individual runners have had knee problems, but overall, runners have better knees that non-runners.

My n=1 is that I've been a runner for 30+ years and have done marathons and ultramarathons and my knees are fine.

[url]https://www.outsideonline.com/2312866/running-bad-knees-might-be-ok-after-all?[/url]

[QUOTE=supramax;1633511833]Check out this guys YouTube site:

[youtube]/BGv1vDcRJW0[/youtube][/QUOTE]

Cool. Thought you were going to link something telling me running was good for my knees. :P
Will check some of his stuff out.

[QUOTE=Gabbar99;1633513113]I don't doubt that individual runners have had knee problems, but overall, runners have better knees that non-runners.

My n=1 is that I've been a runner for 30+ years and have done marathons and ultramarathons and my knees are fine.

[url]https://www.outsideonline.com/2312866/running-bad-knees-might-be-ok-after-all?[/url][/QUOTE]

I think you are cherry-picking data. I don't have time or energy to dig through it right now, but I've looked at plenty of research on it in the past. NOT an MD here, just a researcher/consumer of science.
Runners are far more healthy in many ways than non-runners, but that's a false dichotomy and I'm pretty comfortable with knowing running is bad for me. Certainly compared to alternate activities.

EDIT: also, I have to say I love our thread derails today. Much more enjoyable than the same ol shenanigans about gubmit and needle-sticking.

[QUOTE=Gabbar99;1633513113]I don't doubt that individual runners have had knee problems, but overall, runners have better knees that non-runners.

My n=1 is that I've been a runner for 30+ years and have done marathons and ultramarathons and my knees are fine.

[url]https://www.outsideonline.com/2312866/running-bad-knees-might-be-ok-after-all?[/url][/QUOTE]

I've been running for about 25 years and the only time I had a knee pronlem was when I took some really stupid advice from a Runners' World article and did a big mileage percentage increase.

[QUOTE=supramax;1633513713]I've been running for about 25 years and the only time I had a knee pronlem was when I took some really stupid advice from a Runners' World article and did a big mileage percentage increase.[/QUOTE]

To be clear, running didn't cause the problems, it just exacerbated them. My first knee injury was soccer on turf, the second snowboarding, then the back fractures from the car accident. Running just [I]kills [/I]all those parts these days.