Will you get vaccinated?

[QUOTE=mgftp;1645604993]I am pretty confident the FDA isn't being manipulated as some would suspect.

I do think the point in general of politicians stock holdings is an interesting discussion. Should they be unallowed to participate in single stock ownership?[/QUOTE]

I have to disclose any individual stock holdings of vendors we do business with. I may some power in the healthcare setting, but it's nothing in comparison to Congress. The fact that we allow them to trade individual stocks is baffling to me.

There's no possible way you could even avoid insider trading with the amount of information they have that the public does not. You would literally know trends before they become trends.

When I started on my fitness journey many years ago, I followed this guy - he wrote Body for Life. Cannot believe it's him:

He got Covid in January, had antibodies, decided he was good to go. Got Covid back in July again, now handicapped. "I had it once, I can bench 300 pounds, I thought I was healthy" :(

[youtube]XBYls1LM9oI[/youtube]

^^Ms. Lotus Queen, I remember Bill Phillips very well. I subscribed to his magazine way back. One of the better magazines.

I hope he fully recovers. When was this video taken?

[QUOTE=lotusdeva;1645607893]When I started on my fitness journey many years ago, I followed this guy - he wrote Body for Life. Cannot believe it's him:

He got Covid in January, had antibodies, decided he was good to go. Got Covid back in July again, now handicapped. "I had it once, I can bench 300 pounds, I thought I was healthy" :(
[/QUOTE]

Very sad. Very strange too. You'd think he'd have been as immune as if he'd been vaccinated, so I'm going to have to go look into the PPV of antibody testing now. It's not a screening test, so it should have a low sensitivity and be very specific.

Makes me wonder if they just tested for binding antibodies or if he really had neutralizing antibodies. None of that matters to him, but I'd hate to think people are trusting some non-specific binding antibody test without a PCR and not getting vaccinated because it came back positive. If he had neutralizing antibodies in January of 2020, he really should have had some immunity, even to delta. It would decrease after a year or so since Tk and Th cells live about a year, but it's unusual.

The United States could get COVID-19 under control by early next year, with potential wider vaccine approvals coming in the weeks ahead, Dr. Anthony Fauci said on Tuesday, one day after Pfizer (PFE.N) won wider FDA approval for its shot.

Janet Woodcock, FDA acting commissioner, oversaw their handling of Oxycontin. She did not inspire confidence in me.

She is not being considered for the permanent posting by Biden.

[QUOTE=JustTheDad;1645610593]Very sad. Very strange too. You'd think he'd have been as immune as if he'd been vaccinated, so I'm going to have to go look into the PPV of antibody testing now. It's not a screening test, so it should have a low sensitivity and be very specific.

Makes me wonder if they just tested for binding antibodies or if he really had neutralizing antibodies. None of that matters to him, but I'd hate to think people are trusting some non-specific binding antibody test without a PCR and not getting vaccinated because it came back positive. If he had neutralizing antibodies in January of 2020, he really should have had some immunity, even to delta. It would decrease after a year or so since Tk and Th cells live about a year, but it's unusual.[/QUOTE]

Don't you watch the news doc as they did say that even if you had covid prior, you should take the vaccine as we don't know which folk would have immunity and who doesn't.

This thread is the only place where I've heard natural immunity from the virus is as good protection as the vaccine. Maybe you can explain this difference in information news versus internet?

Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla on Tuesday said the company believes a COVID-19 vaccine-resistant variant will likely one day emerge, though the company has a system in place to turn around a variant-specific jab within some three months.



[url]https://www.foxnews.com/health/pfizer-bourla-covid-19-vaccine-resistant-variant-likely-emerge[/url]

[QUOTE=Mark1T;1645609653]^^Ms. Lotus Queen, I remember Bill Phillips very well. I subscribed to his magazine way back. One of the better magazines.

I hope he fully recovers. When was this video taken?[/QUOTE]

Looks like June 2021 and it was delta. He talks about it here:

[url]https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/update-impacts-delta-fitness-icon-bill-phillips-ewell-smith[/url]

[QUOTE=lotusdeva;1645614133]Looks like June 2021 and it was delta. He talks about it here:

[url]https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/update-impacts-delta-fitness-icon-bill-phillips-ewell-smith[/url][/QUOTE]

Ok although I am glad that you shared, really glad, I am kinda disturbed right about now.
That dude was Ironman for some of us and It is akin to watching Ronnie Coleman right about now.
Then the information revealed about antibodies, gives me a fkn headache........
Oh Jzus!
But I am glad that you shared

[QUOTE=Cass40;1645612673]Don't you watch the news doc as they did say that even if you had covid prior, you should take the vaccine as we don't know which folk would have immunity and who doesn't.

This thread is the only place where I've heard natural immunity from the virus is as good protection as the vaccine. Maybe you can explain this difference in information news versus internet?[/QUOTE]

You need to head into the main misc, anything including nothing offer better protection than the vaccine.

[QUOTE=x-trainer ben;1645616353]Ok although I am glad that you shared, really glad, I am kinda disturbed right about now.
That dude was Ironman for some of us and It is akin to watching Ronnie Coleman right about now.
Then the information revealed about antibodies, gives me a fkn headache........
Oh Jzus!
But I am glad that you shared[/QUOTE]

didn't mean to disturb anyone :( my coach is also my bff sent it to me this morning with - "f@ck it, I am getting a booster". It is disturbing, I still have his books on my shelf :(

[QUOTE=lotusdeva;1645607893]When I started on my fitness journey many years ago, I followed this guy - he wrote Body for Life. Cannot believe it's him:

He got Covid in January, had antibodies, decided he was good to go. Got Covid back in July again, now handicapped. "I had it once, I can bench 300 pounds, I thought I was healthy" :(

[youtube]XBYls1LM9oI[/youtube][/QUOTE]

So, he had confirmed covid before they had tests for covid...?

Seems legit.

EDIT: I re-watched and it said he had anti-bodies. It's also possible it was a false positive. Just saying.

My guess is he also was not natty.

I love how the media likes to make stories of 1 in million chances to instil fear on the general population.

[QUOTE=pondus_levo;1645617553]So, he had confirmed covid before they had tests for covid...?

Seems legit.

EDIT: I re-watched and it said he had anti-bodies. It's also possible it was a false positive. Just saying.

My guess is he also was not natty.

I love how the media likes to make stories of 1 in million chances to instil fear on the general population.[/QUOTE]

Fear, money, women and land <- all of these are great motivators

Make people commit all kinds of good and bad deeds

[QUOTE=pondus_levo;1645617553]So, he had confirmed covid before they had tests for covid...?

Seems legit.

EDIT: I re-watched and it said he had anti-bodies. It's also possible it was a false positive. Just saying.

My guess is he also was not natty.

I love how the media likes to make stories of 1 in million chances to instil fear on the general population.[/QUOTE]

You can tell yourself whatever you want. I didn't feel any fear, I felt for the guy who I followed for many years.

[QUOTE=pondus_levo;1645617553]So, he had confirmed covid before they had tests for covid...?

Seems legit.

EDIT: I re-watched and it said he had anti-bodies. It's also possible it was a false positive. Just saying.

My guess is he also was not natty.

I love how the media likes to make stories of 1 in million chances to instil fear on the general population.[/QUOTE]

No
Covid (Alpha) January 2021 and antibodies.
June 2021 got Delta( antibodies for Alpha) sick for 50 days and now his thighs look like his calves.
It is a story which makes a reasonable person consider if antibodies for A work for D? That is all, no one says do as Bill Suggests..
Information is not scary in 2021, just disturbing.
Cliffs: we don't want to end up like Bill.

[QUOTE=mgftp;1645617153]You need to head into the main misc, anything including nothing offer better protection than the vaccine.[/QUOTE]

Or Alabama? This is so adorbs :o
[youtube]Vr3ZNvv0aco[/youtube]

one of my favorite data visualizations, nice heat map showing the impact of measles vaccine. We are looking at the number of infected people over 70 years across all 50 states

the black line that goes across the chart, represents the moment when the vaccine was introduced.

[url=https://imgur.com/zqBu2p7][img]http://i.imgur.com/zqBu2p7.png[/img][/url]

We don't have 70 years worth of data obviously, but looking at the big picture - everything we know about the vaccines and their history (including the history of the anti-vaccination movement) - 5G, Bill Gates, Trump/Biden vaccine, vaccine "shedding", loss of fertility due to vaccine, population control and all that other nonsense, its just noise.

Unvaccinated people in Los Angeles County were five times as likely to get infected with the coronavirus and 29 times as likely to be hospitalized as people who were fully immunized, newly released data from California show.

[QUOTE=x-trainer ben;1645618833]No
Covid (Alpha) January 2021 and antibodies.
June 2021 got Delta( antibodies for Alpha) sick for 50 days and now his thighs look like his calves.
It is a story which makes a reasonable person consider if antibodies for A work for D? That is all, no one says do as Bill Suggests..
Information is not scary in 2021, just disturbing.
Cliffs: we don't want to end up like Bill.[/QUOTE]

[url=https://www.denverpost.com/2021/08/24/broncos-fitness-nutrition-coach-bill-phillips-covid-vaccination/]This article[/url] says he got covid Jan 2020, not Jan 2021.

[i]“I did not get vaccinated because I made a mistake,” he said during an interview at the hospital. “I thought since I had COVID in January 2020, I was immune to it.” [/i]

I would not be surprised if he never actually had it though. The testing and data at that time was all over the place and pretty unreliable. Sad story no matter what the facts.

More than 100 National Guard personnel are being deployed to 20 hospitals across Georgia to help deal with the latest surge of COVID-19 cases. Gov. Brian Kemp says 105 medically trained Guard will help staff at hospitals in Atlanta and other cities.

[QUOTE=Cass40;1645612673]Don't you watch the news doc as they did say that even if you had covid prior, you should take the vaccine as we don't know which folk would have immunity and who doesn't.

This thread is the only place where I've heard natural immunity from the virus is as good protection as the vaccine. Maybe you can explain this difference in information news versus internet?[/QUOTE]

Hope the media isn't actually saying that they don't have a strong immunity, Cass. The people who actually had the virus and recovered developed an immune response, probably to both the spike protein and the nucleocapsid. There's a third antigen too I think, or maybe I'm mixing up the number of epitopes with the number of target antigens. Either way, actually getting the virus will result in some immunity and you'll have an anamnestic response to all of the antigens if you're re-exposed. Not just to the spike protein.

Your question, whether or not the immunity post infection is a stronger immune response than what you get from 2 shots is hard to determine. There are a lot of factors that we'd have to control for to answer that question, like exactly when you were infected, with what strain, and the viral load you were exposed to after your recovery that resulted in reinfection. I don't think we could fund that study, so we're stuck thinking about it as steps up in immunity. One shot gets you some protection, a second gets you even more. The question I can't answer is whether one infection is taller, shorter, or the same height as 2 shots of vaccine. I suspect it's taller than one shot of any vaccine, and that one infection and one shot is even taller than 2 shots of vaccine. Not because of the antibody titers, but because you get more antibodies after being exposed. It's speculation, I don't have any data that can prove it. I don't think the recommendation to get one shot post infection is really about post infection immunity. I think it's about false positive tests and people who only think they had COVID. The guy in that video could be one.

I wouldn't let any of these breakthrough cases scare you though. Your J&J shot should be sufficient to give protection from bad outcomes for a healthy woman your age. I just can't make any promises or really certain predictions. That guy may have had a second infection that was worse than the first, and we lost a subject to COVID on one of my studies a couple of weeks ago. A subject who had been double vaccinated. It happens, and if we try to find examples of bad outcomes after an infection or vaccination, it's easy to do. That doesn't mean the odds are bad for us. It just means we're frail silly creatures and that Mom Nature is much bigger and stronger than we are.

[QUOTE=ectoBgone;1645623673][url=https://www.denverpost.com/2021/08/24/broncos-fitness-nutrition-coach-bill-phillips-covid-vaccination/]This article[/url] says he got covid Jan 2020, not Jan 2021.

[i]“I did not get vaccinated because I made a mistake,” he said during an interview at the hospital. “I thought since I had COVID in January 2020, I was immune to it.” [/i]

I would not be surprised if he never actually had it though. The testing and data at that time was all over the place and pretty unreliable. Sad story no matter what the facts.[/QUOTE]

he was sick twice as far as I understand, once in 2020 and now in 2021.

[QUOTE=lotusdeva;1645624133]he was sick twice as far as I understand, once in 2020 and now in 2021.[/QUOTE]

I think what ghostbuster is saying is that we can't be sure his Jan 2020 illness was COVID, and he's right. It definitely could have been COVID, but false positive tests were probably more common at that time, and we don't know what antibody testing was done for him. Either way, it sucks that it happened to him and I hope he does well and gets all or at least most of his strength back!

[QUOTE=JustTheDad;1645625113]I think what ghostbuster is saying is that we can't be sure his Jan 2020 illness was COVID, and he's right. It definitely could have been COVID, but false positive tests were probably more common at that time, and we don't know what antibody testing was done for him. Either way, it sucks that it happened to him and I hope he does well and gets all or at least most of his strength back![/QUOTE]

true, we don't know for sure

[QUOTE=JustTheDad;1645623963]Hope the media isn't actually saying that they don't have a strong immunity, Cass. The people who actually had the virus and recovered developed an immune response, probably to both the spike protein and the nucleocapsid. There's a third antigen too I think, or maybe I'm mixing up the number of epitopes with the number of target antigens. Either way, actually getting the virus will result in some immunity and you'll have an anamnestic response to all of the antigens if you're re-exposed. Not just to the spike protein.

Your question, whether or not the immunity post infection is a stronger immune response than what you get from 2 shots is hard to determine. There are a lot of factors that we'd have to control for to answer that question, like exactly when you were infected, with what strain, and the viral load you were exposed to after your recovery that resulted in reinfection. I don't think we could fund that study, so we're stuck thinking about it as steps up in immunity. One shot gets you some protection, a second gets you even more. The question I can't answer is whether one infection is taller, shorter, or the same height as 2 shots of vaccine. I suspect it's taller than one shot of any vaccine, and that one infection and one shot is even taller than 2 shots of vaccine. Not because of the antibody titers, but because you get more antibodies after being exposed. It's speculation, I don't have any data that can prove it. I don't think the recommendation to get one shot post infection is really about post infection immunity. I think it's about false positive tests and people who only think they had COVID. The guy in that video could be one.

I wouldn't let any of these breakthrough cases scare you though. Your J&J shot should be sufficient to give protection from bad outcomes for a healthy woman your age. I just can't make any promises or really certain predictions. That guy may have had a second infection that was worse than the first, and we lost a subject to COVID on one of my studies a couple of weeks ago. A subject who had been double vaccinated. It happens, and if we try to find examples of bad outcomes after an infection or vaccination, it's easy to do. That doesn't mean the odds are bad for us. It just means we're frail silly creatures and that Mom Nature is much bigger and stronger than we are.[/QUOTE]

On spread, great post. I wonder how much specificity the antibody tests have, do other corona virus exposures have the potential to create a false positive? There is no data that I’ve seen, but a logical assumption would be that if he had COVID, the antibodies tested for are reduced over time, but the cell mediated response would remain robust enough that re-exposure to the antigen would result in a rapid antigen specific response. I don’t believe the current vaccines would make a response to anything but the spike protein correct? So you are only targeting one facet of the virus. I wonder if the Novavax vaccine will be an improvement on that end. Sorry for the loss of a study subject. It is really hard to defeat “Mother Nature”. When dealing with the mutations from transcription errors in an individual is insane, translate that to the global population and the possibilities are nearly infinite for mutations that favor the survival of the virus, regardless of external selective pressures such as immunity (vaccine induced or natural). Even though viruses are not “living organisms” biologically, they’ve been around longer than us, and seem to have the “existing” thing down pretty well.

[QUOTE=x-trainer ben;1645618833]No
Covid (Alpha) January 2021 and antibodies.
June 2021 got Delta( antibodies for Alpha) sick for 50 days and now his thighs look like his calves.
It is a story which makes a reasonable person consider if antibodies for A work for D? That is all, no one says do as Bill Suggests..
Information is not scary in 2021, just disturbing.
Cliffs: we don't want to end up like Bill.[/QUOTE]

He specifically said January 2020.

And I'm not convinced he had alpha and walked away unscathed, but then got delta and it put him in a wheelchair. The odds of getting infected at all is about 10% and the odds of getting re-infected is like 1 in 1000000.

Like said, early on antibody tests were not reliable.

[QUOTE=ectoBgone;1645623673][url=https://www.denverpost.com/2021/08/24/broncos-fitness-nutrition-coach-bill-phillips-covid-vaccination/]This article[/url] says he got covid Jan 2020, not Jan 2021.

[i]“I did not get vaccinated because I made a mistake,” he said during an interview at the hospital. “I thought since I had COVID in January 2020, I was immune to it.” [/i]

I would not be surprised if he never actually had it though. The testing and data at that time was all over the place and pretty unreliable. Sad story no matter what the facts.[/QUOTE]

Ok ty, then those variant 1 antibodies didn't last as long as some say they do against variant 6. Yes a very sad story.

As for when it first appeared, some in new jersey are saying fall of 2019 based on people testing negative for flu but exhibiting a strange group of symptoms that we now know are covid.

[QUOTE=Plateauplower;1645628263]I wonder how much specificity the antibody tests have, do other corona virus exposures have the potential to create a false positive? [/QUOTE]

When I think of antibody testing, I think binding vs neutralizing. I don't think a binding antibody test is going to be as specific as a neutralizing one but I'd have to do some reading to see if antibodies from a different corona virus could cause a false positive on a binding assay. We'd also have to look into whether labs were using a binding assay back in early 2020 instead of neutralizing assays.

I know we have antibody tests for both the S and N proteins, so spike and nucleocapsid. Sponsors have actually use the nucleocapsid ab tests to try and detect asymptomatic infection after vaccination on some of the trials. I also think there are two epitopes on the spike protein, which may be why I'm thinking 3 and not 2 antigens. It may be that the vaccines give antibodies to 2 epitopes, while getting the infection adds only the nucleocapsid. I also have absolutely no idea how much exposure to the nucleocapsid would boost your immunity. Since most antibodies that are neutralizing are against proteins/glycoproteins that are involved with cell entry, I'd guess they aren't super helpful, but we'd need to either read or ask an immunologist. If you read this, you'll wonder if they might actually be a bad thing to have more of. [url]https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-83108-0[/url]

I don't know, but people who survive a SARS CoV2 infection should have plenty of antibodies to the spike protein since they likely had a boat load of it floating around during their infected stage.

On the Novavax, it's just the spike protein and an adjuvant. Pretty much another way of doing the same thing, but nice that it's less scary for a lot of people. They can think of it as comparable to getting a splinter covered in the spike protein stuck in their arm, as opposed to having some biologically active product injected into them. Can't wait for the moth man memes and comics to get started.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/AXUODNO.jpg[/img]





[img]https://imgur.com/qHjxgkh.jpg[/img]