[QUOTE=_zman;1650140543]And her antibodies will be better than the vaccine and last longer.[/QUOTE]
Can I ask what this conclusion is based upon?
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[QUOTE=_zman;1650140543]And her antibodies will be better than the vaccine and last longer.[/QUOTE]
Can I ask what this conclusion is based upon?
[img]https://i.imgur.com/B6jd4Sn.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=J.L.C.;1650139683]Vaccination will give you anti-s; infection will give you anti-n and anti-s. We have serological assays (from Roche and Abbott) to detect both.
Both vaccination and infection will lead to long-term immunity.[/QUOTE]
See below.
[QUOTE=Plateauplower;1650028983]Get vaxxed and Stop the spread!
Leading in cases
[img]https://i.imgur.com/QTYe18A.png[/img]
Leading vaccinations
[img]https://i.imgur.com/LclCToW.png[/img]
Seems some of the highest vaccinated countries also have the highest cases. That’s odd…for an effective vaccine (*before the cdc changed the definition of a vaccine).[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=J.L.C.;1650140643]Can I ask what this conclusion is based upon?[/QUOTE]
A Tik Tok conspiracy theorist
[QUOTE=Plateauplower;1650143633]See below.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, how does that relate to being able to identify people who have been vaccinated but not infected?
[QUOTE=mgftp;1650143763]A Tik Tok conspiracy theorist[/QUOTE]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/aZ1NWXm.jpg?1[/img]
Fifteen military medical personnel from the @usairforce deployed to St. George, Utah, this week to support the hospital there. They are part of a monoclonal antibody infusion team, the first team of its kind deployed by @DeptofDefense
[url]https://www.northcom.mil/Newsroom/News/Article/Article/2831778/arnorth-military-hospital-support-to-fema-begins-in-utah-continues-in-four-stat/[/url]
[QUOTE=J.L.C.;1650143933]Sorry, how does that relate to being able to identify people who have been vaccinated but not infected?[/QUOTE]
I realize it is a difficult concept to grasp, but highly vaccinated populations that also have the highest caseloads of infection indicate a lot of vaccinated people are being infected, and therefore do not have immunity. (*until the cdc changes the definition of immunity as they did with the definition of a vaccine)
To add to our other discussion above, if the vaccine doesn’t prevent infection in uninfected populations, by what method does it magically work in people with post-infection immunity?
My apologies again, perhaps we're discussing different topics?
[QUOTE=Plateauplower;1650125013]You obviously don't understand how funded research works....Universities, and other paid research is paid by "donors" who essentially pass funds from affected companies. It is a shell game. The study itself is pointless per my previous response. Demonstrating an increase of specific antibodies does not mean anything in real-world efficacy. The pool of control groups is ever shrinking to even create a solid study at this point. [B]It would be hard to identify with certainty groups who have not (yet) been infected but have been vaccinated.[/B] They are out there, but it is an ever shrinking demographic.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=J.L.C.;1650127763]Wouldn't those people have anti-s antibodies but not anti-n antibodies?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Plateauplower;1650138553]No idea, I have not dived that deep into specific antibodies stimulated by the spike protein vaccines and a lot is unknown scientifically about cell-mediated long term immunity. The more cutting edge stuff that I recall reading about was the incorporation of gene sequences of viruses into the human genome in people who have contracted a virus. Our so called "junk" DNA that "takes up spaces" is primarily genetic sequences from previous viral infections that assist the body in recognizing and fighting that specific disease in the future. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=J.L.C.;1650139683]Vaccination will give you anti-s; infection will give you anti-n and anti-s. We have serological assays (from Roche and Abbott) to detect both.
Both vaccination and infection will lead to long-term immunity.[/QUOTE]
This is where the discussion abruptly turned to cases in countries with high vaccination rates.
[QUOTE=Plateauplower;1650149783]I realize it is a difficult concept to grasp, but highly vaccinated populations that also have the highest caseloads of infection indicate a lot of vaccinated people are being infected, and therefore do not have immunity. (*until the cdc changes the definition of immunity as they did with the definition of a vaccine)
To add to our other discussion above, if the vaccine doesn’t prevent infection in uninfected populations, by what method does it magically work in people with post-infection immunity?[/QUOTE]
It's important to consider demographics and temporal relationships when examining case data.
Most countries vaccinated their most vulnerable populations first and those are the folks most likely to catch and suffer from infection. Current data suggest detectable levels of anti-s antibodies (from vaccination) for 7-8 months after the second dose. Levels of anti-s antibodies are directly related to reduced risk of infection. As those antibody levels wane, infection becomes more likely, but the longer lasting T- and B-cell side of immunity will still protect people from severe infection, hospitalization and death.
While we are seeing cases in some places with high vaccination rates, that may be due to when those folks were vaccinated.
But we also have to look at the large reduction in hospitalizations and deaths in those places as those metrics tell us about the effectiveness of the vaccines in reducing serious complications from covid infection.
Re-infection of those with "natural" immunity also occurs. This is because levels of antibodies produced in response to infection also wane over time.
[QUOTE=mtpockets;1650146853]Fifteen military medical personnel from the @usairforce deployed to St. George, Utah, this week to support the hospital there. They are part of a monoclonal antibody infusion team, the first team of its kind deployed by @DeptofDefense
[url]https://www.northcom.mil/Newsroom/News/Article/Article/2831778/arnorth-military-hospital-support-to-fema-begins-in-utah-continues-in-four-stat/[/url][/QUOTE]
I just read that 8,500 missed the deadline for getting vaxxed in the air force.
[QUOTE=x-trainer ben;1650155663]I just read that 8,500 missed the deadline for getting vaxxed in the air force.[/QUOTE]
I read that as well, I also heard a bunch of religious exemptions were sent in as well.. One of the first things they do during boot camp is needle your ass up to date with vaccinations, everyone I know of got their shots except one guy that got caught going further back in line because he was afraid of needles. His ass got plucked out of line and sent to cells for the weekend, never seen him after. Probably got the boot.
I would think it would be hard for someone to claim religious exemptions if they took the initial shots and never changed religions. Will see how this one plays out with the 8500
[QUOTE=J.L.C.;1650139683]Vaccination will give you anti-s; infection will give you anti-n and anti-s. We have serological assays (from Roche and Abbott) to detect both.
Both vaccination and infection will lead to long-term immunity.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Plateauplower;1650028983]Get vaxxed and Stop the spread!
Leading in cases
[img]https://i.imgur.com/QTYe18A.png[/img]
Leading vaccinations
[img]https://i.imgur.com/LclCToW.png[/img]
Seems some of the highest vaccinated countries also have the highest cases. That’s odd…for an effective vaccine (*before the cdc changed the definition of a vaccine).[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=J.L.C.;1650151573]My apologies again, perhaps we're discussing different topics?
This is where the discussion abruptly turned to cases in countries with high vaccination rates.
It's important to consider demographics and temporal relationships when examining case data.
Most countries vaccinated their most vulnerable populations first and those are the folks most likely to catch and suffer from infection. Current data suggest detectable levels of anti-s antibodies (from vaccination) for 7-8 months after the second dose. Levels of anti-s antibodies are directly related to reduced risk of infection. As those antibody levels wane, infection becomes more likely, but the longer lasting T- and B-cell side of immunity will still protect people from severe infection, hospitalization and death.
While we are seeing cases in some places with high vaccination rates, that may be due to when those folks were vaccinated.
But we also have to look at the large reduction in hospitalizations and deaths in those places as those metrics tell us about the effectiveness of the vaccines in reducing serious complications from covid infection.
Re-infection of those with "natural" immunity also occurs. This is because levels of antibodies produced in response to infection also wane over time.[/QUOTE]
You are talking in circles. Go back and reread. The pool of people who have not been previously infected is shrinking, daily. If people have long term immunity from the vaccines, why does the length of time matter since they were vaccinated matter? They were literally released this year. Is 5-8 months your idea of what long-term immunity is? No, reinfection is not common, breakthrough cases in people who had not been infected are though. Finally, I agree that the vaccine does appear offer some protection from bad outcomes for high risk populations. How much and for how long is anyone's guess, it probably depends a lot on the individuals conditions, medical treatments, immune system etc. The same people who are dying from covid while being fully vaccinated are the same people who would have died from covid without the vaccine. I guess just be sure you get our booster every 6 months....
[img]https://i.imgur.com/DtWjfPi.jpg?1[/img]
BREAKING: UK's medicines regulator has approved the world's first pill designed to treat symptomatic Covid-19, British government says.
IMO this is what's needed, tackle covid on many fronts. Another tool in the toolbox.
[QUOTE=Plateauplower;1650180053]You are talking in circles. Go back and reread. The pool of people who have not been previously infected is shrinking, daily. If people have long term immunity from the vaccines, why does the length of time matter since they were vaccinated matter? They were literally released this year. Is 5-8 months your idea of what long-term immunity is? No, reinfection is not common, breakthrough cases in people who had not been infected are though. Finally, I agree that the vaccine does appear offer some protection from bad outcomes for high risk populations. How much and for how long is anyone's guess, it probably depends a lot on the individuals conditions, medical treatments, immune system etc. The same people who are dying from covid while being fully vaccinated are the same people who would have died from covid without the vaccine. I guess just be sure you get our booster every 6 months....[/QUOTE]
"Reinfection by SARS-CoV-2 under endemic conditions would likely occur between 3 months and 5·1 years after peak antibody response, with a median of 16 months. This protection is less than half the duration revealed for the endemic coronaviruses circulating among humans (5–95% quantiles 15 months to 10 years for HCoV-OC43, 31 months to 12 years for HCoV-NL63, and 16 months to 12 years for HCoV-229E). "
[url]https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(21)00219-6/fulltext[/url]
Immunity is not a brick wall against a disease, rather it is a complex process.
While antibodies — proteins created after infection or vaccination that help prevent future invasions from the pathogen — do level off over time, that's supposed to happen. It doesn't mean people are not protected against COVID-19.
Antibody levels ramp up in the primary response phase after vaccination or infection, when your immune system is charged up and ready to attack. Antibody levels decrease from that "emergency phase". But the memory of the pathogen and the body's ability to respond to it remain.
B-cells, which make the antibodies, and T-cells, which limit the virus's ability to cause serious damage, continue to work together to stave off severe disease long after a vaccine is administered or someone is infected. While T-cells can't recognize the virus directly, they determine which cells are infected and kill them off quickly.
Recent studies have suggested the T-cell response is still robust several months following a COVID-19 vaccination.
You might get a minor infection, but all of those cells remain, which is why we're still seeing very stable effectiveness when it comes to preventing severe disease.
[QUOTE=mtpockets;1650179663]
I would think it would be hard for someone to claim religious exemptions if they took the initial shots and never changed religions. Will see how this one plays out with the 8500[/QUOTE]
I'd say it was challenging to write my religious exemption for my previous job. I took all the military jabs needed, but I was not taking these "vaccines".
I just cited the bible in various ways. One way is being at peace with your decisions. I was at peace going into the military, getting the tried and true vaccines, and deploying. This is not a vaccine I'm at peace with.
It was a lot more complicated than that and a page long, but it was approved.
[QUOTE=_zman;1650196733]I'd say it was challenging to write my religious exemption for my previous job. I took all the military jabs needed, but I was not taking these "vaccines".
I just cited the bible in various ways. One way is being at peace with your decisions. I was at peace going into the military, getting the tried and true vaccines, and deploying. This is not a vaccine I'm at peace with.
It was a lot more complicated than that and a page long, but it was approved.[/QUOTE]
Was your exemption the truth, or did you write that just to get out of the shot?
[QUOTE=_zman;1650196733]I'd say it was challenging to write my religious exemption for my previous job. I took all the military jabs needed, but I was not taking these "vaccines".
I just cited the bible in various ways. One way is being at peace with your decisions. I was at peace going into the military, getting the tried and true vaccines, and deploying. This is not a vaccine I'm at peace with.
It was a lot more complicated than that and a page long, but it was approved.[/QUOTE]
What are you gonna tell your insurance company if the unfortunate were to happen?
[url]https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/03/health/unvaccinated-death-benefits-khn-partner/index.html[/url]
[QUOTE=mtpockets;1650196953]Was your exemption the truth, or did you write that just to get out of the shot?[/QUOTE]
Of course. Do you not think people are being truthful about their faith?
[QUOTE=TryingBB;1650221603]What are you gonna tell your insurance company if the unfortunate were to happen?
[url]https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/03/health/unvaccinated-death-benefits-khn-partner/index.html[/url][/QUOTE]
Thanks for the concern, but the VA said they "don't give a chit if I'm vaccinated or not. it's your choice." And I don't pay for any healthcare due to my veteran status.
Had my booster yesterday. Did expect sore arm and all but didn't expect a crampy, tense left calf. Feels like I had arm and one leg day yesterday
[QUOTE=_zman;1650244393]Of course. Do you not think people are being truthful about their faith?
Thanks for the concern, but the VA said they "don't give a chit if I'm vaccinated or not. it's your choice." And I don't pay for any healthcare due to my veteran status.[/QUOTE]
Oh, I bet many aren't being truthful and using the exemption as an excuse.
[QUOTE=Tdriin;1650244503]Had my booster yesterday. Did expect sore arm and all but didn't expect a crampy, tense left calf. Feels like I had arm and one leg day yesterday[/QUOTE]
That's an odd one, hope it eases soon for you. I didn't have any effects from either of my shots, Don't plan on getting a booster, at least not yet
[QUOTE=mtpockets;1650244743]That's an odd one, hope it eases soon for you. I didn't have any effects from either of my shots, Don't plan on getting a booster, at least not yet[/QUOTE]
I have had 2x Astra Zeneca and 1 Pfizer. So not sure why the tension in the calf. Could be from sleeping on one side mainly, definitely a new one.
[QUOTE=Tdriin;1650244783]I have had 2x Astra Zeneca and 1 Pfizer. So not sure why the tension in the calf. Could be from sleeping on one side mainly, definitely a new one.[/QUOTE]
Hopefully and probably the calf is unrelated to to the shot.
[QUOTE=TryingBB;1650245583]Hopefully and probably the calf is unrelated to to the shot.[/QUOTE]
Had blood test showing sticky blood in September (Second jab was in April) and new tests this month before the jab so only slightly higher platelet count but I work in high altitudes. Blood tests weren't related to jabs and requested by occupational health but goes to show how many people believe the blood clot stories when they are quite rare.
Just think it comes from poor sleeping position but just strange to have it when legs and arms aren't that related.
[QUOTE=Tdriin;1650244503]Had my booster yesterday. Did expect sore arm and all but didn't expect a crampy, tense left calf. Feels like I had arm and one leg day yesterday[/QUOTE]
Which one did you get?
[QUOTE=x-trainer ben;1650247053]Which one did you get?[/QUOTE]
Vaccinations were Astra zeneca. Booster yesterday was Pfizer
[QUOTE=Tdriin;1650247823]Vaccinations were Astra zeneca. Booster yesterday was Pfizer[/QUOTE]
Yeah, Pfizer kicked my azz the 2nd time and i am probably 100 pounds heavier than you are.
For 36 hours, fatigue, heavy head/neck, slightly sore deltoid, sleepy, and headache.
Then right on schedule, back to normal.
[QUOTE=x-trainer ben;1650248723]Yeah, Pfizer kicked my azz the 2nd time and i am probably 100 pounds heavier than you are.
For 36 hours, fatigue, heavy head/neck, slightly sore deltoid, sleepy, and headache.
Then right on schedule, back to normal.[/QUOTE]
Astra zenecas were evil. They stopped giving them to anyone after 40 and now you hardly hear of any vaccination centre using astra zeneca in the UK. Felt like chit after the first, could barely sleep and head felt so heavy. Second dose affected sleep a bit less but still had poor sleep. Pfizer has been the easiest.
Will take that sore left calf for a walk and hope a bit of stretching helps. Just sore arm and sore calf and nothing else, quite surprised. Expected worse
Pure blood for life OP
[QUOTE=J.L.C.;1650182893]"Reinfection by SARS-CoV-2 under endemic conditions would likely occur between 3 months and 5·1 years after peak antibody response, with a median of 16 months. This protection is less than half the duration revealed for the endemic coronaviruses circulating among humans (5–95% quantiles 15 months to 10 years for HCoV-OC43, 31 months to 12 years for HCoV-NL63, and 16 months to 12 years for HCoV-229E). "
[url]https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(21)00219-6/fulltext[/url]
Immunity is not a brick wall against a disease, rather it is a complex process.
While antibodies — proteins created after infection or vaccination that help prevent future invasions from the pathogen — do level off over time, that's supposed to happen. It doesn't mean people are not protected against COVID-19.
Antibody levels ramp up in the primary response phase after vaccination or infection, when your immune system is charged up and ready to attack. Antibody levels decrease from that "emergency phase". But the memory of the pathogen and the body's ability to respond to it remain.
B-cells, which make the antibodies, and T-cells, which limit the virus's ability to cause serious damage, continue to work together to stave off severe disease long after a vaccine is administered or someone is infected. While T-cells can't recognize the virus directly, they determine which cells are infected and kill them off quickly.
Recent studies have suggested the T-cell response is still robust several months following a COVID-19 vaccination.
You might get a minor infection, but all of those cells remain, which is why we're still seeing very stable effectiveness when it comes to preventing severe disease.[/QUOTE]
Lol you might want to look at the death stats. More people dead after vaccines were available than before. Real testament to their efficacy. Many of those dying are double vaccinated elderly. Not sure if that counts as fully vaccinated any more or if they should have had a few more, surely that would have worked. Kind of like double/triple masking. Can’t be too safe!