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Where Israel goes the US generally follows, check this out....
[url]www.jpost.com/health-and-wellness/coronavirus/article-691344[/url]
[url]www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-691387[/url]
uh oh a new one, jzus
[url]https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10365005/Covid-tracking-scientists-France-spot-variant.html[/url]
variant has been dubbed B.1.640.2
[youtube]Fn8MxJx_erk[/youtube]
[QUOTE=DustinTheHuss;1653554263]Dr. Fauci can F off.[/QUOTE]
What did he do?
[QUOTE=Plateauplower;1653641403]Not when they guess right…The flu vaccines are basically a guess a year in advance of flu season of what strains will be circulating. If they guess right they are highly effective, if they guess wrong they are marginally effective. What we are doing now is using a vaccine we know is not effective (for Omicron which seems to be a mild cold) and doubling down on just get more of them. It’s all about money at this point and has nothing to do with health. If they cared about health they wouldn’t have proposed sending people back to work 5 days after a test w/out a negative test to verify the person is no longer infectious.[/QUOTE]
Ignore the politics around C19 for a second;
So its a guess - and it's sometimes they get it right and sometimes it's more or less effective? Effective at what though?
You're saying the C19 vaccines is not effective, yet, it looks like it's doing it's job by keeping people out of the hospital (majority at least). Is this your own feelings or do you have anything I can read that validates the statement [I]using a vaccine we know is not effective[/I]? Serious question because I really don't know what to believe anymore. Misinformation as smoothed out my brain on this topic.
Gyms closed here on Ontario...new measures to combat the vertical Omicron line.
I had just sold all of my home gym stuff this past fall...damn, all I have left is my C2 Rower, dumbbells, and some smaller kettle bells, better than nothing I guess.
Starting to become more and more convinced that it just has to burn through the populace till it runs out of hosts.
[QUOTE=Jtbny;1653639593]IDK thats what the flu shot does, right?[/QUOTE]Nobody is mandating flu shots or firing people because they wont get one. Nobody is locking down businessess or forbidding travel because of it either.
[QUOTE=Jtbny;1653654053]Ignore the politics around C19 for a second;
So its a guess - and it's sometimes they get it right and sometimes it's more or less effective? Effective at what though?
You're saying the C19 vaccines is not effective, yet, it looks like it's doing it's job by keeping people out of the hospital (majority at least). Is this your own feelings or do you have anything I can read that validates the statement [I]using a vaccine we know is not effective[/I]? Serious question because I really don't know what to believe anymore. Misinformation as smoothed out my brain on this topic.[/QUOTE]
An effective vaccine prevents infection (old definition).
The covid “jabs” are seemingly effective for reducing severity of disease in high risk populations using data for alpha & delta). A vaccine is supposed to prevent an infection, anything short of that is referred to as a vaccine failure (until the CDC changed the definition last year). I’d recommend the vaccine for everyone high risk, alpha and delta strains are still out there. It’s too early to tell if the vaccines help reduce severity of omicron, but they are doing nothing for preventing infections, so I’d guess any benefit would also be reduced if not eliminated. Omicron appears to be very mild though, like a 2-3 day cold which is good, and the rate of spread could very well end the pandemic. You won’t find anything published that in anyway shape or form addresses this because people who would do such a thing would be canceled and lose their career (it has happened repeatedly, and they were not tinfoil hat wearing CTers).
As for as the vaccine being effective for reducing hospitalization (for omicron) look at your state hospitalization data. Ours are up over 200% in my region with 70+% people vaccinated. It does not appear to be working.
[QUOTE=mgftp;1653652373]What did he do?[/QUOTE]
Why the purposely obtuse act?
[QUOTE=Corbi;1653656063]Nobody is mandating flu shots or firing people because they wont get one. Nobody is locking down businessess or forbidding travel because of it either.[/QUOTE]
Some health care workers are mandated flu shots yearly but I get what you're saying.
Oh and I agree - open up, lets go!
[QUOTE=Plateauplower;1653656163]An effective vaccine prevents infection (old definition).
The covid “jabs” [B][U]are seemingly effective [/U]for reducing severity of disease in high risk populations [/B]using data for alpha & delta). A vaccine is supposed to prevent an infection, anything short of that is referred to as a vaccine failure (until the CDC changed the definition last year). I’d recommend the vaccine for everyone high risk, alpha and delta strains are still out there. It’s too early to tell if the vaccines help reduce severity of omicron, but they are doing nothing for preventing infections, so I’d guess any benefit would also be reduced if not eliminated. Omicron appears to be very mild though, like a 2-3 day cold which is good, and the rate of spread could very well end the pandemic. You won’t find anything published that in anyway shape or form addresses this because people who would do such a thing would be canceled and lose their career (it has happened repeatedly, and they were not tinfoil hat wearing CTers).
As for as the vaccine being effective for reducing hospitalization (for omicron) look at your state hospitalization data. Ours are up over 200% in my region with 70+% people vaccinated. It does not appear to be working.[/QUOTE]
Ill have to dive into the hospitalization numbers but it would make sense that a higher populated area with a vast majority of folks vaxxed would lead to a higher number of people in the hospital that had been vaxxed. Not sure that proves the vax is a failure or not though. Again, IDK but I read that children are now in the hospital w/covid until you dig further and its kids in the hospital for OTHER reason are also testing positive for covid. They're not ending up there BECAUSE of it so every time I hear anything I don't even know what to believe as the info keeps getting twisted for someone's narrative.
But the bolded is different that "[I]using a vaccine we know is not effective[/I]"
[QUOTE=Jtbny;1653659683]Ill have to dive into the hospitalization numbers but it would make sense that a higher populated area with a vast majority of folks vaxxed would lead to a higher number of people in the hospital that had been vaxxed. Not sure that proves the vax is a failure or not though. Again, IDK but I read that children are now in the hospital w/covid until you dig further and its kids in the hospital for OTHER reason are also testing positive for covid. They're not ending up there BECAUSE of it so every time I hear anything I don't even know what to believe as the info keeps getting twisted for someone's narrative.
But the bolded is different that "[I]using a vaccine we know is not effective[/I]"[/QUOTE]
I think you are missing the point. The vaccines were effective for reducing symptoms for alpha and delta. Now that omicron is here hospitalizations have increased more than 200% (cases have increased as well) but this suggests that in a highly vaccinated region, significant increases are because the vaccine is less effective. Believe whatever makes you happy though, you know how easily stats can be manipulated. We had a death in hospice recently (cancer) they were testing her daily lol. Don’t want to miss one of those “covid deaths”.
[QUOTE=Plateauplower;1653660453]I think you are missing the point. The vaccines were effective for reducing symptoms for alpha and delta. Now that omicron is here hospitalizations have increased more than 200% (cases have increased as well) but this suggests that in a highly vaccinated region, significant increases are because the vaccine is less effective. Believe whatever makes you happy though, you know how easily stats can be manipulated. We had a death in hospice recently (cancer) they were testing her daily lol. Don’t want to miss one of those “covid deaths”.[/QUOTE]
You have the vaccines to thank, partly, for Omicron’s mildness.
There are numerous studies suggesting that the vaccines are effective against severe disease with Omicron. With a booster, they are highly effective. This has been the same story since day 1. The vaccines have maintained good-high effectiveness against severe disease and death for every variant. Protection against infection and symptomatic disease has waned more rapidly.
Even before the data, it was improbable that any variant would have a compete immune escape.
Omicron’s benignity comes partly from its capability of infecting hosts that have been vaccinated or infected previously.
[QUOTE=Plateauplower;1653656163]An effective vaccine prevents infection (old definition).
The covid “jabs” are seemingly effective for reducing severity of disease in high risk populations using data for alpha & delta). A vaccine is supposed to prevent an infection, anything short of that is referred to as a vaccine failure (until the CDC changed the definition last year). I’d recommend the vaccine for everyone high risk, alpha and delta strains are still out there. It’s too early to tell if the vaccines help reduce severity of omicron, but they are doing nothing for preventing infections, so I’d guess any benefit would also be reduced if not eliminated. Omicron appears to be very mild though, like a 2-3 day cold which is good, and the rate of spread could very well end the pandemic. You won’t find anything published that in anyway shape or form addresses this because people who would do such a thing would be canceled and lose their career (it has happened repeatedly, and they were not tinfoil hat wearing CTers).
As for as the vaccine being effective for reducing hospitalization (for omicron) look at your state hospitalization data. Ours are up over 200% in my region with 70+% people vaccinated. It does not appear to be working.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure what your definition of effective is. Those with 2 pfizer vaccine doses were 70% less likely to go to the hospital (down from 93%) during an omicron dominant period in South Africa, with a booster shot expected to improve those odds.
[url]https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2119270[/url]
"...we found low neutralization efficiency with two doses of the BNT162b2 vaccine against the wild-type virus and the delta variant, assessed more than 5 months after receipt of the second dose, and no neutralization efficiency against the omicron variant. The importance of a third vaccine dose is clear, owing to the higher neutralization efficiency (by a factor of 100) against the omicron variant after the third dose than after the second dose; however, even with three vaccine doses, neutralization against the omicron variant was lower (by a factor of 4) than that against the delta variant."
Time after your last dose appears to be very relevant to the vaccine's efficacy, especially when concerning omicron.
[url]https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2119358[/url]
[QUOTE=Reliance012;1653661663]You have the vaccines to thank, partly, for Omicron’s mildness.
There are numerous studies suggesting that the vaccines are effective against severe disease with Omicron. With a booster, they are highly effective. This has been the same story since day 1. The vaccines have maintained good-high effectiveness against severe disease and death for every variant. Protection against infection and symptomatic disease has waned more rapidly.
Even before the data, it was improbable that any variant would have a compete immune escape.
Omicron’s benignity comes partly from its capability of infecting hosts that have been vaccinated or infected previously.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Arnoldswim;1653663063]I'm not sure what your definition of effective is. Those with 2 pfizer vaccine doses were 70% less likely to go to the hospital (down from 93%) during an omicron dominant period in South Africa, with a booster shot expected to improve those odds.
[url]https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2119270[/url][/QUOTE]
Yes we should praise the vaccine for awesomeness! We just hit a record high of vaccinations, record high cases, and hospitalizations (in my area). We are on the right track. God speed population adjustment…
[QUOTE=Corbi;1653656063]Nobody is mandating flu shots or firing people because they wont get one. Nobody is locking down businessess or forbidding travel because of it either.[/QUOTE]
Just like most workers in large HCOs I have been mandated flu shots among other things for the 2 decades I have been in the business.
[QUOTE=Plateauplower;1653674423]Yes we should praise the vaccine for awesomeness! We just hit a record high of vaccinations, record high cases, and hospitalizations (in my area). We are on the right track. God speed population adjustment…[/QUOTE]
How is any of that relevant to the efficacy of the vaccine?
The biggest war breaks out and we give soldiers bullet proof vests. There is clear evidence they are saving lives due to more people surviving getting shot wearing them. Yet a ton of people still die, because ya know it's a huge war. Are you just screaming about the worthless bullet proof vests like they are the enemy even though they are saving lives?
[QUOTE=mgftp;1653675043]How is any of that relevant to the efficiency of the vaccine?
The biggest war breaks out and we give soldiers bullet proof vests. There is clear evidence they are saving lives due to more people surviving getting shot wearing them. Yet a ton of people still die, because ya know it's a huge war. Are you just screaming about the worthless bullet proof vests like they are the enemy even though they are saving lives?[/QUOTE]
If we are going to use war metaphorically for this, our response is a Pyrrhic victory.
[QUOTE=Plateauplower;1653660453]I think you are missing the point. The vaccines were effective for reducing symptoms for alpha and delta. Now that omicron is here hospitalizations have increased more than 200% (cases have increased as well) but this suggests that in a highly vaccinated region, significant increases are because the vaccine is less effective. Believe whatever makes you happy though, you know how easily stats can be manipulated. We had a death in hospice recently (cancer) they were testing her daily lol. Don’t want to miss one of those “covid deaths”.[/QUOTE]
I don't know what to believe, Tim, and yes on stats - I love me some stats but they are easily used to paint a different picture depending on the intended outcome. I was just questioning your term "not effective" and then saying they are "pretty effective". Words matter and you've been super helpful ITT explaining to us smooth brained idiots what's happening that it seemed contradictory. In the end I just want to move the fuk on with life and basically have personally. What I will say is that the last two years have really opened my eyes on how information is delivered and by whom and what the motives are. Something I generally just took for granted coming from supposedly trusted sources. Not that I wasn't already skeptical of much of the info out there but that was from MSM sources but now I'm questioning everything - its exhausting :D
Gf worked at a hospital in the area doing art therapy with troubled kids and she was required to get flu shots to work there 1 day per week. Hospitals don't play......
[QUOTE=Jtbny;1653697603]I don't know what to believe, Tim, and yes on stats - I love me some stats but they are easily used to paint a different picture depending on the intended outcome. I was just questioning your term "not effective" and then saying they are "pretty effective". Words matter and you've been super helpful ITT explaining to us smooth brained idiots what's happening that it seemed contradictory. In the end I just want to move the fuk on with life and basically have personally. What I will say is that the last two years have really opened my eyes on how information is delivered and by whom and what the motives are. Something I generally just took for granted coming from supposedly trusted sources. Not that I wasn't already skeptical of much of the info out there but that was from MSM sources but now I'm questioning everything - its exhausting :D[/QUOTE]
Agree, that is what frustrates me more than anything about this is the lack of pertinent information and lack of integrity in terms of what is presented. I think it has gotten worse in terms of intentional misinformation (and I don't see it as Red/Blue etc. it is EVERYWHERE - well beyond the pandemic). If the public health sector would just be honest with the data and allow people to make their own decisions based on their own personal health conditions I think everyone would be just fine and not lead to the division that it creates. It is almost comical to hear the same mantra about what works and what doesn't while seeing the cases increase by 400% for a record 1,000,000 cases reported on Monday (and that excludes all the home tests). If my area was not so crazy with this bull$hit my opinions would not be as strong. I wish I lived somewhere else, but plan to wait a few years and move when I retire.
I think the vaccines are a tool and I hope they remain effective for reducing severity, but that is certainly not the bill of goods we were sold initially. mRNA vaccines are supposed to be very easy to adjust to variants and I'm not sure why more efforts have not been made to keep them on the upper end of efficacy for prevention rather than a pre-emptive treatment for sever outcomes as they are currently recognized as.
[QUOTE=Plateauplower;1653699763] mRNA vaccines are supposed to be very easy to adjust to variants and I'm not sure why more efforts have not been made to keep them on the upper end of efficacy for prevention rather than a pre-emptive treatment for sever outcomes as they are currently recognized as.[/QUOTE]
This. Although I don't know if any strain warranted a polyvalent vaccine prior to omicron, and even fast means 4-6 months. Not sure that's fast enough given how fast this one spread over the holidays.
Let's hope the M&M numbers don't increase as much as the incidence has.
On a sad note, my kid's schools are requiring booster shots for on campus classes. Stupid, but such is life. I made my son cancel his Moderna apt so he can get the Pfizer shot instead. Should give him a 1/2 dose. Also on a sad note, my current runny nose tested negative. Oh well. Guess other viruses are still around :(
On a happy note, we made it through 2021. Hope you guys have a fantastic 2022!
[QUOTE=Plateauplower;1653699763]Agree, that is what frustrates me more than anything about this is the lack of pertinent information and lack of integrity in terms of what is presented...[/QUOTE]
Strong agreement. I don't trust anything anymore. This rant from Saagar Enjeti captures my feelings pretty well.
[youtube]SVlUrFAauP4[/youtube]
[QUOTE=Jtbny;1653659093]Some health care workers are mandated flu shots yearly but I get what you're saying.
Oh and I agree - open up, lets go![/QUOTE]
No, they aren't. They can refuse the flu shot but if they do they have to stay masked up during flu season. Simple, logical, and gives workers the right to make a choice that doesn't involve coercion (losing their job).
[QUOTE=Plateauplower;1653699763]Agree, that is what frustrates me more than anything about this is the lack of pertinent information and lack of integrity in terms of what is presented. I think it has gotten worse in terms of intentional misinformation (and I don't see it as Red/Blue etc. it is EVERYWHERE - well beyond the pandemic). If the public health sector would just be honest with the data and allow people to make their own decisions based on their own personal health conditions I think everyone would be just fine and not lead to the division that it creates. It is almost comical to hear the same mantra about what works and what doesn't while seeing the cases increase by 400% for a record 1,000,000 cases reported on Monday (and that excludes all the home tests). If my area was not so crazy with this bull$hit my opinions would not be as strong. I wish I lived somewhere else, but plan to wait a few years and move when I retire.
I think the vaccines are a tool and I hope they remain effective for reducing severity, but that is certainly not the bill of goods we were sold initially. mRNA vaccines are supposed to be very easy to adjust to variants and I'm not sure why more efforts have not been made to keep them on the upper end of efficacy for prevention rather than a pre-emptive treatment for sever outcomes as they are currently recognized as.[/QUOTE]
As far as not liking how information is presented you can go straight to published journal articles themselves for data that can at least give you a picture. News organizations just want eyes and engagement it's understandable to not rely on them. There can be conflicts of interests in studies but I do trust data from people whose life's work has been immunology.
The vaccines were extremely effective against wild type covid. The variants have changed, we're lucky that there is any crossover immunity. Anyone that believed that vaccines would provide complete immunity for everyone did not have a good understanding of the role of vaccines. It's like complaining that someone only gave you $95 instead of $100 cause someone that didn't know what they were talking about hinted at $100.
The major hurdle in the vaccine development does not seem to be adjusting for variants, its for FDA testing. The plan for what the mRNA vaccine was gonna be was developed two days after covid genetic sequencing. A month later (Feb '20) the vaccine was ready but it had to go through FDA testing. Ironically, a huge anti-vax critique was it was rushed. The US was late on the scene for vaccination of its population with its own vaccine because of the relatively rigorous testing.
[QUOTE=JustTheDad;1653704853]This. Although I don't know if any strain warranted a polyvalent vaccine prior to omicron, and even fast means 4-6 months. Not sure that's fast enough given how fast this one spread over the holidays.
Let's hope the M&M numbers don't increase as much as the incidence has.
On a sad note, my kid's schools are requiring booster shots for on campus classes. Stupid, but such is life. I made my son cancel his Moderna apt so he can get the Pfizer shot instead. Should give him a 1/2 dose. Also on a sad note, my current runny nose tested negative. Oh well. Guess other viruses are still around :(
On a happy note, we made it through 2021. Hope you guys have a fantastic 2022![/QUOTE]
Yeah I think Omicron will be over with by the time they could react and create and produce a more specific vaccine. I'm not sure what that would mean for authorization either (i.e. would it need to be run through trials again etc) but it seems insane to continue pushing boosters "jab" number 3 and soon to be 4 when it is clear they are doing nothing to reduce transmission. If one argues that they provide protection for the vaccinated, then great, vaccinated people should feel safe. Instead the continued push that somehow vaccinated people are "safer" to be around which is just not the case according to current data.
Yeah there are colds going around. My wife had a cold before we left for the Dells, tested negative, that went to the kids (fatigue runny nose) then tested negative on return from the dells (wife was 100%) then similair but new symptoms started Thursday and she tested positive on OTC tests. The reason for the insane amount of testing is because we have been helping out with her 94 yo grandmother who was just released from the hospital and doing our best to not infect her. I'm not very confident in the rapids we did on Sunday that all came back negative considering my wife did the other OTC test the same day and tested positive again lol. I guess we will know in a few days when they all get PCR tests which are nearly impossible to find since the state went from 100k+ tests/day down to 20-40k just to make it more difficult for unvaccinated people to be able to go to a library, restaurant et.c (my opinion). How can your son's school mandate a booster when the CDC only recommends and still considers the original authorized "vaccines" as fully vaccinated two weeks after the final dose (single dose for J&J)?
[QUOTE=ectoBgone;1653708113]Strong agreement. I don't trust anything anymore. This rant from Saagar Enjeti captures my feelings pretty well.
[youtube]SVlUrFAauP4[/youtube][/QUOTE]
Pretty good clip, I never watch news so I don't ever see anything like that. Surprised it was even aired honestly. I get the shortening of the quarantine period, if they didn't we might end up in mad max land in a couple weeks lol. To go along with the high likelihood that infectious people will be knowingly allowed to return to work, and the vaccines do little to protect from infection, you'd think they (the ScIenCe) would back off of the vaccine mandate insanity. I think Omicron is going to be the rip the Band-Aid off solution that we need to show that masks and vaccines do fuk-all for "flattening the curve". There is no curve to flatten right now, just a vertical line.
[QUOTE=Plateauplower;1653710603]Pretty good clip, I never watch news so I don't ever see anything like that. Surprised it was even aired honestly. [/QUOTE]
Private show from a couple of correspondents who broke away from main stream media. They're more centrist and I feel like they make an honest attempt to do some homework. I like it.
[QUOTE=ectoBgone;1653711353]Private show from a couple of correspondents who broke away from main stream media. They're more centrist and I feel like they make an honest attempt to do some homework. I like it.[/QUOTE]
I watched it and don't disagree with their sentiments.
All along I've felt there's been too much politics involved in the information dissemination and guidances. That said, other than saying people shouldn't be wearing masks way back at the beginning when there was a shortage of N95 masks, I don't think Fauci ever gave really bad advice and I don't think he's lied. I also don't think he had to be pressured to admit anything in the clips they showed. He just had to be asked. He's pretty honest and admits it when he's made a mistake. Whether it's appropriate for him to say he thinks others are making a mistake in some cases is debatable.
[QUOTE=JustTheDad;1653714043]I watched it and don't disagree with their sentiments.
All along I've felt there's been too much politics involved in the information dissemination and guidances. That said, other than saying people shouldn't be wearing masks way back at the beginning when there was a shortage of N95 masks, I don't think Fauci ever gave really bad advice and I don't think he's lied. I also don't think he had to be pressured to admit anything in the clips they showed. He just had to be asked. He's pretty honest and admits it when he's made a mistake. Whether it's appropriate for him to say he thinks others are making a mistake in some cases is debatable.[/QUOTE]
He lied about funding gain of function research, and relatedly, has been recalcitrant about the likelihood of covid being a lab leak. And it's not always what you say, it's what you don't say. He should not need to be asked certain things in order to come out and clarify certain narratives that need clarification, and to me it seems he has held back from doing that if the narrative drives the end results he wants.
[QUOTE=ectoBgone;1653714813]He lied about funding gain of function research, and relatedly, has been recalcitrant about the likelihood of covid being a lab leak. And it's not always what you say, it's what you don't say. He should not need to be asked certain things in order to come out and clarify certain narratives that need clarification, and to me it seems he has held back from doing that if the narrative drives the end results he wants.[/QUOTE]
I kinda side with JustTheDad here. I am a big Breaking Points fan but I would say the one subject I really didn't follow their reasoning on has been their criticism of Fauci. I could be wrong and he could be worthy of derision; I could see not agreeing with his decisions based on the data. But I don't see many examples of his positions that weren't defensible based on the current data and his view on how to handle the pandemic (heavily in favor public health vs quality of life/economy). I could be wrong. I'm interested in hearing things that are legitimate criticisms of Fauci so I can understand.
The gain of function research seems like a semantic argument and the lab leak hypothesis did not seem likely at all he was saying it did not happen. Saagar points out he had an email in his inbox question the lab leak at the time he was saying it was definitely no but from my understanding most of the information was saying it seemed really unlikely at the time. Maybe he shouldn've said it seemed unlikely instead of a definite no?
New WR, we won the Gold in the covid games....1,082,549 cases.
[url]www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10368021/US-hits-record-1-082-549-COVID-cases-single-day.html[/url]