Keto Diet Questions

Hey, I'm thinking about getting the Size Formula from ************** as my mid-afternoon shake. My main concern is that it has 15g of carbs per serving. I know I want to stay around 50g a day so I'll just have to be careful about my other carbs during the day but is 15g too much to take in at one time during keto? Does it matter? Here's the breakdown of the formula -

20% MCT 60%
20% YOLK
20% Ion exchange whey isolate
20% Soy XT
20% Isoflax

Serving Size 80 grams 1 cup (Servings per pound, 6)
Protein 30 grams
Carbs 15 grams
Fat 24 grams

Calories 400

Thoughts/advice? Thanks!

-87W

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by 87wrangler [/i]
[B]Hey, I'm thinking about getting the Size Formula from ************** as my mid-afternoon shake. My main concern is that it has 15g of carbs per serving. I know I want to stay around 50g a day so I'll just have to be careful about my other carbs during the day but is 15g too much to take in at one time during keto? Does it matter? Here's the breakdown of the formula -

20% MCT 60%
20% YOLK
20% Ion exchange whey isolate
20% Soy XT
20% Isoflax

Serving Size 80 grams 1 cup (Servings per pound, 6)
Protein 30 grams
Carbs 15 grams
Fat 24 grams

Calories 400

Thoughts/advice? Thanks!

-87W [/B][/QUOTE]
This should be fine, more than anything you need to watch your total carb intake across the span of a day. Some prefer to take in all their carbs in one meal, it's really a matter of preference. Just remember to stick to low GI carbs as much as possible.

Thanks for the advice, Manteca. What are you guys using for condiments? Full-fat mayo, full-fat salad dressing, mustard? Anything else good?

-87W

Can I give some uneducated and likely entirely wrong advice?

The carb-up day is useless. I haven't carbed up since beginning the keto diet and my lifts haven't decreased a bit.

What is the science behind the carb-up day?

UPDATE:

Results:
Well, it's been one week since I started the keto diet. I've been in ketosis for four days(today is my fifth). I've lost a total of 4lbs. I've gone down from 180 to 176lbs. It may not seem like much, but it is. I look much slimmer in the mirror. And get this, my bodyfat percentage has dropped 2%! I went from a 16% to a 14%! Now, I am not the best opperator of those calipers, but 14% was actually the highest measure I got, and also the most common. So I figured it was pretty accurate.

Diet:
I am still eating right around 1800 calories daily, give or take a few. My protein is 180+ and my far is always over 100g's. I am usually at 40-45% protein, 50-55% fat and always under 5% carbs. The most carbs I have had in one day has been 22g, and that was on the first day.

Training:
My training has not changed much, except that I decided to throw in some medium intensity/low intensity cardio instead of just high intensity. My weight training sessions feel really good. I have had no loss of muscle, but possibly some gains.
I have not had a carb-up day yet. I am going to do my first this weekend. I did not want to do it this past weekend because I felt it was too soon in to the diet.

Supplements:
I have not changed anything here. I am still taking 5g Creatine and 5-10g Glutamine a day in my post workout shakes. I also take 2 pills(forgot the measure) of ZMA before bed every night.

Side Effects:
I think I'm one of the lucky ones. My breath has been about the same. I think one day out of this whole week I noticed a little weird taste in my mouth, but thats it. I brush my teeth at least twice a day and floss nightly if that helps. :) Urine, again, not very noticable. My urine is still very light colored and sometimes almost clear. It smells about the same, everyonce and I while it may have a little stronger smell but nothing too powerful or too often. And yes I am still in ketosis. I have checked everyday with the ketostix and they are still coming out a very strong/dark color. I have had a few cravings for something sweet. But I've always been like that. I'm a chocoholic and always needed something sweet after dinner. But it's something I've gotten over and adjusted to, so it's not too bad anymore.
Socially, this diet has been great in my opinion. I've gone out to eat dinner twice in the past four days and it hasn't effected me at all. Both resturaunts I went to offered vegetables in place of the normal side of carbs(potatoes or pasta usually). I had Itallian the first night where I hate salad and two chicken breasts smothered in cheese and some sauce and my other outing I had a 16oz ribeye steak with vegetables and some spinach dish. Now, I ate half the ribeye at dinner and ate the other half when I got home after the date to keep my metobalism moving.

Plans:
I don't know if I will continue this diet once I get to my desired weight/bf%. I really don't know how much more weight I will lose. I think my fat will drop, but since I'm putting on muscle my weight will remain somewhat unchanged. I hope to get down to below 10% bf or whenever I feel I look good in the mirror. Once I am there, I will start some sort of bulking diet to put on weight to get bigger with. But I know I will definately use the keto diet to cut with from now on.

Hopefully this has helped. This diet becomes easier and easier everyday. I have been taking pictures along the way and I will try and post some before/after pics soon. Only problem with them is that I just had laser hair removal on my chest/stomach so I am kind spotty and red and I don't have a tan yet because you are not allowed to prior to the hair removal.

-Brandon

Good for you, Brandon! Glad it's working out for you.

-87W

Carb loading is critical for a ketogenic diet. Its not a matter of lifts decreasing, but many have strength gains while following the diet. I have seen this in roughly 60-65% of clients.

I will make it as short as possible. Now, we already are spiking our insulin levels with a post work out shake(or you had better be). This creates a mild insulin spike that forces amino acids from the bodys amino acid pool directly in the muscles. The theroy behind a proper carb load(not a cheat day) is to consume 60% carbs 30% protein and 10% fat, while staying within your calorie ranges(no more than 10% above). The load period is 24-36 hours, starting at the end of your training week.

Now, we are spiking insulin levels for a extended period of time and forcing even more aminos into the muscles. The period that the load is done is not enough to throw you out of Ketosis.

I haven't been taking a shake either. What does it do if I don't?

Why is carb-loading critical? If your strength isn't decreasing what is the point? My muscles are the same size if not bigger. Am I wrecking my organs? Why should I carb load?

I'm not trying to be an ass, I'm just trying to understand why it's so important.

I've lost about 13pnds since beginning. I was worried that if you don't carb load you'd start atrophying like crazy but I'm not.

My point is, you can be getting more out of the diet than you are. Strength gains, muscle gains PLUS fat loss at the same can all happen.

Great job on the 13lbs!

Thanks! :D

I'm just starting on xenadrine today so hopefully I'll be at where I wanna be in a month.

daniel2166, i've actually gotten stronger since starting the keto especially the Monday workout after 2 days off and some carbs. i've also changed from volume training (which works great when i'm on a carb based diet) to heavy training working from 6-8 reps down to about 2 or 3 reps and results are fantastic. my workout is done in an hour now(sometimes less) people at my Gym are suspicious that i maybe on some juice. i just don't have the energy to keep me going through a long drawn-out session any more. i've also changed from having juice to just having a gatorade with creatine & protein powder post workout and i can't stress how important this is. Fitnessman knows his stuff so i don't question it i just do it and the results speak for themselves.Richie

Hey Richie, what kind of protein powder are you using? I currently have some chocolate stuff that doesn't mix well with my gatorade but it's almost gone. So I need to get some more, but I want some that will mix well with gatorade.
Thanks,
-Brandon

i'm using Optimums 100% Whey (vanilla). the only time i use whey now is post-workout so a 5lb tub lasts me quite a while. i think someone on these boards had this brand tested with very postive results so i'll stick with it. i don't go flat after training like i used to and i attribute this to the protein,gatorade & creatine mix. i was having grape juice which was making me a bit bloated and fat.Richie

i searched through the forums, but didn't really find a clear answer to this question: how will a keto diet affect my triglyceride level? i'm currently using accutane to cure my acne, and from what i've read, if my triglycerides become too high (i have to get a blood test every 3 weeks) the doctor will not prescribe it any longer. i'm planning on starting a keto diet in the fall.

fitnessman? any help? thanks alot.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by bandar8338 [/i]
[B]i searched through the forums, but didn't really find a clear answer to this question: how will a keto diet affect my triglyceride level? i'm currently using accutane to cure my acne, and from what i've read, if my triglycerides become too high (i have to get a blood test every 3 weeks) the doctor will not prescribe it any longer. i'm planning on starting a keto diet in the fall.

fitnessman? any help? thanks alot. [/B][/QUOTE]

I honestly don't know, but I just wanted to chime in and say I that I used to use Accutane when I was in high school. That stuff is amazing. I just got tired of peeling the little pregenant lady stickers off everyday. :)

In not one case have I seen triglyceride levels increase. In most they drop quite a bit.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by fitnessman [/i]
[B]In not one case have I seen triglyceride levels increase. In most they drop quite a bit. [/B][/QUOTE]

These things sometimes defy logic, but they are true.

"Eat fat to lose fat"

"Increase fat intake (and go ketonic of course) and triglycerides levels fall"

"Eat a high fat diet (and go ketonic of course) and good cholestoral increases while bad cholestoral decreases"


HMMMMMMMMMM, defies convential logic, but all these statements are true.

PEACE

I'm not questioning fitnessman, I just wish to understand the science better. :)

A few of my lifts have increased a little but a few have decreased a little. It evens out though.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by daniel2166 [/i]
[B]I'm not questioning fitnessman, I just wish to understand the science better. :)

A few of my lifts have increased a little but a few have decreased a little. It evens out though. [/B][/QUOTE]


I didn't mean to imply you were (questioning fitnessman).

I applaud your quest to understand the science better.

I too, am on this same journey with much to still learn.

Actually, the increasing a few while a few lifts are decreasing slightly has happened to me and I'm sure others. This may or may not be a result of keto. I don't think it is, though it may be.:confused:

Stress, supps, diet, intensity of workouts, meals and the timing of those meals in relation to training, rest time beween sets and a thousand other things can make this happen.

I don't think it is anything to worry about.

I for one usually drop intensity on lifting a bit, and add more cardio when on keto. A diet is a diet, keto or not and the total amount of fuel available decreases when cutting.

As long as over time, your lifts increase. You''ll be fine.

PEACE

Questions keep me on my toes

o.k. Fitnessman here's a question. i'm still a little confused on this but i'll be starting REGULAR cardio soon and was wondering,if i do my weight training (usally around 60 to 75 minutes) then do 30 to 40 minutes of moderate cardio where do i fit in the post-workout shake to get the most benefit from it? after weights and before cardio? after i've finished both weights and cardio? or wait for a while and let my body stay in a fat burning state? this is my 11th week of keto and i've gained a LOT of strength and size (weighing around 260lbs now and leaner than when i was 255lbs) but after 12 weeks i was going to go back to normal eating for a week and then get serious with a cutting diet. keto of course!! by the way have you used or heard of "Udo's choice" efa's?Richie

I have to split weights and cardio. Weights in A.M. cardio in P.M.

After weights I take the 30g whey and 30g juice.

After P.M. cardio I take 20g whey 15g juice and 10g Glutamine. I only do cardio when really try fot the big cut.

If you have to both at the same session I say after cardio, but I would bump up the carbs to 40g and add the Glutamine.

Nope never heard of that one. I dont supplement with Efa's. I like to eat so get all my fat from food.

Heck of a thread isnt it?...:)

it sure is.i'm going to set aside an hour and go through it again. i've got some great tips from here. i really have no choice but to do my cardio after my weights at the moment because of my afternoon shift hours so thanks. i suppose i'll have to go buy some glutamine but it's damn expensive here. Richie

Fitnessman, I have read both Body Opus and Lyle's book and studied them thouroughly.

In both these books the carb load is recommended to be around 10 g/kg LBM for first 24 hours of loading while cutting that about in half for the second 24 hours.

My question is, why do you always recommend to simply get the 60/30/10 ratio of c/p/f and stay within calorie range?(and not to fully saturate the muscles)

Is this due to the fact that you take a post w/o shake w/ 30 carbs while Duchaine and Lyle's method does not include this or maybe because you follow a traditional split without training the entire body before the load?

Hope this isn't too long, I would like to hear your thoughts

thanks

I do not alter my training at all for the diet. In my opinion, the full body work out is hog wash. Dont get me wrong, those are great books.

What I have done is research everything I can get my hands on. Try this and that with clients, and have found that the post work out shake with a carb load at the ratio's I recommend seem to work best.

I say this over and over, I only use the 60/30/10 ratio when dieting down for a special event. I have the quickest fat loss with myself and others happen with this. Most of year(I stay keto most of year) I opt for the 36 hours eat everything in sight. I really only need to look cut once in awhile.

The glycogen levels are filled quite well with the 60/30/10 ratio and there is no chance of spillover. Most who try a ketogenic diet are looking for quick fat loss, that is why I generally recommend it.

However, every metabolism is differnt. I always stress that folks play with the ratios to get it right for them.

Great questions!

Thanks!

I agree that your method would pretty much eliminate spill over, seems like the best choice for quick fat loss.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by fitnessman [/i]
[B]I do not alter my training at all for the diet. In my opinion, the full body work out is hog wash. Dont get me wrong, those are great books.

What I have done is research everything I can get my hands on. Try this and that with clients, and have found that the post work out shake with a carb load at the ratio's I recommend seem to work best.

I say this over and over, I only use the 60/30/10 ratio when dieting down for a special event. I have the quickest fat loss with myself and others happen with this. Most of year(I stay keto most of year) I opt for the 36 hours eat everything in sight. I really only need to look cut once in awhile.

The glycogen levels are filled quite well with the 60/30/10 ratio and there is no chance of spillover. Most who try a ketogenic diet are looking for quick fat loss, that is why I generally recommend it.

However, every metabolism is differnt. I always stress that folks play with the ratios to get it right for them.

Great questions! [/B][/QUOTE]

Fitnessman, I gotta say, you really seem to know your sh-t. Thanks for helping the rest of us out.

-87W

can you drink diet soda on keto

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cga [/i]
[B]can you drink diet soda on keto [/B][/QUOTE]

I'm not totally sure, but I definately wouldn't reccomend it. Maybe on your carb up day, but do it in moderation.
-Brandon

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cga [/i]
[B]can you drink diet soda on keto [/B][/QUOTE]

Every site I've read says yes, but it also says in some people the citric acid can throw you out of ketosis. But that's if you drink a lot.

And don't drink diet coke/pepsi or any brown cola because it has phosphoric acid in it.

And don't drink diet coke/pepsi or any brown cola because it has phosphoric acid in it.


What is wrong with phosphoric acid?

If I want to split my fat intake between "good" fat and saturated fat, any recommendations for %s? Fitnessman? I plan on using nuts and oils for good fats and then probably cheese and/or mayo for other fats, occasionally some pork products... I just don't want to stuff myself with sausages, bacon, etc...

Thanks for any advice!

-87W

I've read much on soda and pretty much the only kind that is acceptable is diet rite soda... anything else will hamper fat loss or throw you out of ketosis...some people also say diet cherry 7-up but I don't trust that one so I avoid it.

Diet soda's can cause insulin responses in some. The fake sweetner fools the body into thinking it is getting sugar, in some. I do have a diet rite orange with dinner most nights. Splenda seems to be the better sweetner out there, but in general, limit quanities.

Thats a good question 87wrangler. Hummm, I would go with 20%-30% of fat calories from "bad" fats. Again I say all fats are okay. But my good bro Chitown has great luck with keeping fats cleaner.

:D

Yeah, I like to keep the bad fats in the 15-30 range most days.

But......

At least once a week (when on keto), I load up on the bacon, sausage and slightly fatty steaks. If you can't have a bad fat load day, so to speak, when on keto, when can you have it. IMHO.

Oh, this could be a keto breakthrough...... a bad fat load meal/day. LOL ;)

Damn, those bad fats taste so good. But overall, I really try and avoid fried foods.

Gotta go, my bacon is burning. Don't want to cook off all that bad fat. Yum. LOL


PEACE

i dont know i went to alltheweb.com and lookedup the ketogenic diet and i clicked the link on one of the sites and it downloaded theketogenicdiet.pdf so i got the whole thing on my computer

UPDATE:
First Carb-Up Period
Well, tonight I started my first carb-up. I started tonight and I plan to continue until Monday(36 hours). I ate my normal keto diet all day until dinner. For dinner, I went out for sushi, and then later I had some popcorn and a coke. I felt pretty normal tonight. I checked to see if I was still in ketosis and it came up blank. I am completely out of ketosis right now. Tomorrow I plan to eat a 60% carb, 30% protein and 10% fat diet with a small increase in calories. I want to keep it healthy with good carbs and fats. Monday I am starting a much more intense 5-day split and I hope to have some of this post carb-up day energy everyone has talked about. I'll keep you updated.
-Brandon

I'd like to get everyone's opinions on something I read in the latest M&F this weekend. This is an excerpt from page 239 -

"As a caution, reducing carbohydrate intake to a low level (generally less than 10%-15%) for more than 5-10 days can cause ketosis. This is when fats don't break down completely in metabolism resulting in products known as ketones that disturb the body's normal acid-base balance and leads to other health problems. Ketosis also causes reduced exercise capacity due to poor glycogen stores in the muscles, and will result in excessive fat intake due to the imbalance of macronutrients."

What are the "other health problems" Kathleen Engel alludes to? It sounds like the CKD at least combats the problem with glycogen stores due to the carb-up period. Any thoughts? Master Keto (a.k.a. Fitnessman)? Thanks.

-87W

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by 87wrangler [/i]
[B]I'd like to get everyone's opinions on something I read in the latest M&F this weekend. This is an ex...

-87W [/B][/QUOTE]The only time your blood changes from ketosis is from the massive, I mean massive amounts of ketones produced by alcoholic ketosis. Your blood PH will not change from a keto diet. Also it is understood that athletic performance will suffer, the whole idea is to deplete glycogen, duh.

Anyway you can find a million other anti keto diet articles etc... very few of which have any scientific backing

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by 87wrangler [/i]
[B]I'd like to get everyone's opinions on something I read in the latest M&F this weekend. This is an excerpt from page 239 -

"As a caution, reducing carbohydrate intake to a low level (generally less than 10%-15%) for more than 5-10 days can cause ketosis. This is when fats don't break down completely in metabolism resulting in products known as ketones that disturb the body's normal acid-base balance and leads to other health problems. Ketosis also causes reduced exercise capacity due to poor glycogen stores in the muscles, and will result in excessive fat intake due to the imbalance of macronutrients."

What are the "other health problems" Kathleen Engel alludes to? It sounds like the CKD at least combats the problem with glycogen stores due to the carb-up period. Any thoughts? Master Keto (a.k.a. Fitnessman)? Thanks.

-87W [/B][/QUOTE] personally i wouldn't believe ANYTHING i read in a magazine. i haven't bought one in years.i've learned more from boards like these than i have from ANY magazine.these boards have real people with real progress and real experiences. the more magazines i read the more confused i got. when on a keto diet you must train heavy and keep workouts brief as your energy is limited because of your shortened glycogen supply. DON'T try and train the same as you do when on a high carb diet.the extra fat intake is keeping you in an anabolic state. i'm growing,losing fat and getting stronger and i'm training no longer than 75 minutes. i can't argue with those results.Richie

To date, there is not a single study that proves anything negative about a ketogenic diet.

There was some studies done a few years back on people with kidney problems to begin with. Thats where alot of miss information amoung the medical folks comes from.

the FDA and medical community are really full of myths and folklore, just to scare people so they can make more money. FDA says carbs and low fat = good, but if you eat that way, you're hungrier often and end up spending more money. Medical community, says they don't have cures, but they do. They work on treating diseases, not curing them, which equals bigger profit. hmmm is there a valid reason I dislike corporate America?

Yep the money is in treatment not the cure.

Hey guys...

my mom is doing the Atkins diet... which, admitedly, I know very little about... (Im assuming its just a brand of keto diet)... anyway... thats not the point...

she was telling me that she was only showing trace ketones with the keto sticks, then she started to eat Pork Skins... she says
that when she eats them, she gets a dark purple read on the sticks.. (she uses the sticks daily)...

is there a relationship between the pork skins and increased ketosis, or do you think it might have been a coincidence?

Thanks for any info you might have...

btw

[quote]there a valid reason I dislike corporate America?[/quote]

any reason is a valid one, methinks! hehe :D:D

I only recommend keto diasticks to first time high fat dieters. It helps to have proof that the diet is doing something for them.

However

With the sticks the more fat you consume the darker the color. So it doesnt actually mean that you are burning stored body fat but dietary at times.

So do you think there is a preferred color or level of ketones that we should have to benefit the most out of the ketogenic diet?

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by fitnessman [/i]
[B]I only recommend keto diasticks to first time high fat dieters. It helps to have proof that the diet is doing something for them.

However

With the sticks the more fat you consume the darker the color. So it doesnt actually mean that you are burning stored body fat but dietary at times. [/B][/QUOTE]

ah, I gotcha... it may not mean anything else but an increase in fat consumption then...

I use the sticks once in a great while. Just the a trace is all you need to show.

You can be in ketosis, and still show nothing on them.

Remember we are bodybuilders!

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by n00b123 [/i]
[B]the FDA and medical community are really full of myths and folklore, just to scare people so they can make more money. FDA says carbs and low fat = good, but if you eat that way, you're hungrier often and end up spending more money. Medical community, says they don't have cures, but they do. They work on treating diseases, not curing them, which equals bigger profit. hmmm is there a valid reason I dislike corporate America? [/B][/QUOTE] i agree. but we (keto dieters) are one step ahead of their scam to separate us from our money & health. we should all stick together and when we're 110 plus y.o. expose them for what they are. even the other boards here will come & go but the "keto threads" will still be going strong.aahhh, just a bit of fun here,LOL!! but seriously, i haven't had a check up (it's been 12 weeks on keto for me) nor have i used keto stix but i can tell by my abs that i'm losing fat, my skin texture is smoother & clearer and i "just know" i'm healthier on the inside. i can feel it. that's all the proof i need and i even have "the high-fat critics" (from when i first started the diet) asking me a few more questions now.i love watching them shake their heads in amazement when they see me eating bacon, eggs,sausages,cheese etc and then pull up my shirt to see abs (not ripped but they're there)....love it heehee!!!Richie

I can't wait to get my abs!!! I have the upper ones just barely showing, it's the lower abs that are going to be tough for me. Gotta love the KETO!!!:D