A different reason morning cardio may be better than later cardio.

///// update: I read that the body first uses dietary sugar to spare glycogen during exercise, and only then fat if the spike is high enough. I don't know if muscles can synthesize glycogen during exercises. I also don't know how much fat cells comlete. But this decreases the circumstances under which wake up cardio may be beneficial, or the magnitude in those situations. The main theme remains, that glycogen is not bad for fat loss, and lack there of is not the reason wake up cardio can burn more fat. /////
Original post:


First, a warning about fasted high intensity cardio, especially in untrained people or those who actually lowered their glycogen supply before exercise: [url]https://www.livestrong.com/article/415921-what-happens-when-your-body-runs-out-of-glycogen-during-a-long-workout/[/url] If someone jogs into the woods, or rides a bike on a city street, depleted glycogen could turn out very bad, the article says.

My goal is fasted cardio with full glycogen to start.





Many say all that matters is total calories burned and total consumed. I think that is 80% true under optimal programming, but that 20% or more freebies can had even then.

Others say fasted cardio is better than cardio with full glycogen later in the day. I initially disagreed, since glycogen spares muscle, and I was told by a PhD that even slow twitch fibers can't burn 100% fat and will get their carbs from muscle if no glycogen is available. The fact that slow twitch fibers have glycogen backs up what the PhD said.

I now think the morning cardio people are correct about the action, but wrong about the reason. Glycogen is good. The issue is that intestines dump fuel into the blood any time except morning, after a night of being empty.
This paper: [url]https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/18/9/4963/htm[/url] confirmed my suspicion, that slow twitch fibers burn blood sugar instead of fat when blood sugar levels are elevated. The blood sugar they burn would have gone to glycogen.

The morning cardio people are not optimized though:

Low intensity cardio burns mostly fat and does not deplete glycogen fast. Also, they take protein in the morning, when they should take it before and during sleep instead. [url]https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/03/190306081832.htm[/url] (wrong link. I looked at several about night protein) A few studies I saw said taking protein at night spares muscle and guarantees glycogen is full in the morning. (Since posting this, I'm now reading about several that contradict this). The low intensity cardio should then be done with a completely empty stomach, unless you are counting on a meal taking time to reach the small intestine and not release fuel until after the cardio. In that case, eating a can of beans right before the cardio might be ideal, since it is maybe slower digesting.

I estimate an extra pound of fat can be lost per month without having to feel hungrier or weaker. Yes, that is small compared to 4-6 pounds lost per month by a bigger calorie deficit, but no reason they can't both be done. Bulk during the day, and cut in the morning. No more cutting needed once one loses the bulk of their initial fat, or at least a lot less cutting needed.

...site bug, so second post...

I also estimate 1/2 pound of muscle could be lost during sleep each night absent a few scoops of protein, 20g before bed, and 20g when you wake up to urinate. Since that already happens, this could add 1/2 pound per month for free. [url]https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/03/190306081832.htm[/url]

As for the calorie pool theory, the hole in that theory is it assumes the deficit will all go to fat loss. Muscle is another obvious possibility, which follows glycogen loss. So meal timing should be aimed at saving glycogen, and some strategic cardio should be done to burn fat without extra hunger or glycogen loss. You will feel hungrier if you run out of glycogen.


That's all I got. I think the small intestine fuel dump rate was not mentioned before, so this idea was worth sharing.

The timing from when we eat to when the fuel enters the blood is well worth looking at....


I suspected, and that big paper confirmed, that how weak or energized or hungry we feel usually does not mirror our current state. There are middle man subconscious systems that monitor glycogen levels and digestive track contents and send signals of hunger or weak feelings to the conscious mind to motivate us.

I can feel weak, but as soon as I eat, I feel I have energy again, even though no food was digested.

I can eat a cookie and almost immediately feel a blood sugar spike. Maybe the sugar diffused through my eso****us walls, but I bet some of that is the subconscious sensory recognising the cookie and telling me it is bad from previous exlerience.

I can manipulate the system right back. If I eat beans right before my cardio, it will take time for them to digest... I think. The subconscious systems then know food is coming and will feel safe using the last of the glycogen instead of going for the muscles. They also won't torment me as much with feelings of weakness. HMB powder is maybe another way to get that affect.

I will buy some glucose test kits off amazon and see how long a can of beans takes to raise my blood sugar in the morning.




Liver glycogen can complicate this, and I'm now maybe running into the relm of speculation. I'll read more of this [url]https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/18/9/4963/htm[/url] before I post more speculation. And do the blood sugar tests before during and after morning wake up, beans, and exercise.

Well, I read the cottage cheese thread sticky, and it says that around 2012, the forum consensus changed to say that people do not go catabolic overnight and to just watch total carbs in vs out. No further explanation is given.

I should check the date on my link to the night protein and, if old, search for more articles to see if some found flaws in the first. 2019






...




Ok, here is another assumption/suspicion of mine, that I could be wrong about, and that I'm hinging everything else on:

I suspect that glycogen can only be created at a certain maximum speed, and that if a blood sugar spike is low, the body will send most or all of that to glycogen, but that if it is tall, the body will send the spill over to fat production.
I could be way wrong about that. Maybe both energy storage methods compete the same regardless of spike. Heck, I don't even know if the liver is the only place that turns sugar to fat. I need to read the rest of that article to find out.



But if slower broader spikes promote glycogen storage vs fat storage, then many of my theories would prove true.
If coverting sugar to fat competes with conversion to glycogen equally at all blood sugar levels, then the status quo on this forum would be correct, that glycemic index and meal timing don't matter, and that only calories in vs out matters.





...

[url]https://levelsusa.com/blogs/nutrition/protein-shake-before-bed[/url]

That site lists several studies that say muscle building and fat loss is not affected by casein protein before bed, but that whey protein reduces fat loss at night. It says there is no effect on HgH levels, but that there is a correlation between body composition and when people eat, favoring those who eat earlier. I don't know if they accounted for people's bed times.





...

[url]https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/4392141/[/url]
That says that adipose tissue (fat cells) can convert glucose into fatty acids. It does not say when that happens.

I read elsewhere several places that only the liver can turn fructose into its local glycogen. Any excess is turned to fat.

I read elsewhere, some harvard interview, that if someone drinks a 64oz soda, the liver will turn most of it to fat. It was not detailed but I got the impression that includes glucose turned to fat if enough is present.

I realize this still does not prove that big meals lead to more fat conversion than small ones. The 64oz soda could be too extreme an example.

Lots more reading to do.


....


[url]https://diabetestalk.net/ketosis/how-glucose-is-converted-into-fatty-acids[/url]

This diabetes forum says that as long as glycogen stores are not full, sugar is turned to glycogen, not fat. It makes no mention of how fast the cells can make glycogen and if there is comoetition with adipose tissue making fatty acids. But it does not support my theory, at least in the case of normal meal sizes. It does say large percentages of simple sugars entering at once may be an exception.

It also says that carbs tend to get burned up right as they enter circulation. That might still support the benefit of morning cardio. But meal frequency might not be an issue.



....


[url]https://www.quora.com/Does-glycogen-depleted-overnight?share=1[/url]


That and the other Q&A following addresses some of questions much better than most news sites, but still not in enough detail to give me confidence.

It backs up my claim that gut activity, not glycogen levels, determines fat burn. It also says the body prefers to store carbs as glycogen, but does not say how the fat cells know when to turn carbs into fat.

When I search for muscle catabolism, many sites say that happens during atrophy or over training or insufficient recovery. No mention of night time muscle break down. Other sites did mention that, but are not coming up with that sesrch term.

That raises the question of how much, if at all, muscles break down at night on a semi decent program and if bedtime protein is even a benefit. I'll see if I can find something definitive.

Serious question: what is your obsession with glycogen / keeping glycogen stores absolutely maximally full 100% of the time? If you're eating a remotely balanced diet, it's just not something to worry about. Have some carbs an hour and a half before you work out, maybe have something sugary after. It's just not that important, and stressing over it will drive you insane

[QUOTE=bLinkMoore;1649534543]Serious question: what is your obsession with glycogen / keeping glycogen stores absolutely maximally full 100% of the time? If you're eating a remotely balanced diet, it's just not something to worry about. Have some carbs an hour and a half before you work out, maybe have something sugary after. It's just not that important, and stressing over it will drive you insane[/QUOTE]

Be respectful with using the “i” word. I previously thought OP was a troll but tbh after reading the 5 posts above I believe I was mistaken (srs).

[QUOTE=bLinkMoore;1649534543]Serious question: what is your obsession with glycogen / keeping glycogen stores absolutely maximally full 100% of the time? If you're eating a remotely balanced diet, it's just not something to worry about. Have some carbs an hour and a half before you work out, maybe have something sugary after. It's just not that important, and stressing over it will drive you insane[/QUOTE]

They don't need to be maximally full all the time, just filled up when the opportunity presents so I knkw they won't empty during a workout and result in muscle burn. Maybe I heard too many exaggerations.

You may be right that I'm underestimating the body's energy managing capabilities. I may be jumping the gun since I'm not all read up yet. I just want to help it out if I can so I burn more fat with less discomfort and less risk of muscle loss or slowed growth. And I realize I'm only chasing a 20% boost in fat loss and muscle gains, but I think that can add up and may be nice if it is easy to add.


I already know that slow twitch fibers will burn blood sugar instead of fat when the intestine is releasing food. That tells me my body is not 100% on my side as far as recomp goes. So I don't trust it in other areas. I'll continue reading up and find out which methods are best for helping it out, or if it really does make no difference at the end of the day.

Some other experts who backed up the intestine fact added that it does not matter, but did not say why. I just intend to find out why. Calorie deficits can lead to two different kinds of weight loss.

[QUOTE=Darkius;1649535593]I'm only chasing a [B]20%[/B] boost in fat loss and muscle gains[/QUOTE]here, you dropped this: [B]0.[/B]

[QUOTE=faithbrah;1649539813]here, you dropped this: [B]0.[/B][/QUOTE]

I don't know if you mean 0% or 200%, but 200% sounds unlikely.


The risk of eating protein at night is less fat burn at night if glycogen stores are already full, and maybe even a bit if they are not. But if the protein comes out of day calories, there would be more fat burn during the day to compensate. Without knowing how the body manages everything, I can only guess.

As for morning cardio, the risk there is that if glycogen is not that full, maybe muscle could be lost. I don't know how much.

So I don't think my proposal is a guaranteed improvement.




But the forum consensus or bandwagon is that none of this timing matters on either end. All that matters is calories in vs out over the week, within reasonable dietary limits if exercising.

[QUOTE=Darkius;1649535593]They don't need to be maximally full all the time, just filled up when the opportunity presents so I knkw they won't empty during a workout and result in muscle burn. Maybe I heard too many exaggerations.

You may be right that I'm underestimating the body's energy managing capabilities. I may be jumping the gun since I'm not all read up yet. I just want to help it out if I can so I burn more fat with less discomfort and less risk of muscle loss or slowed growth. And I realize I'm only chasing a 20% boost in fat loss and muscle gains, but I think that can add up and may be nice if it is easy to add.


I already know that slow twitch fibers will burn blood sugar instead of fat when the intestine is releasing food. That tells me my body is not 100% on my side as far as recomp goes. So I don't trust it in other areas. I'll continue reading up and find out which methods are best for helping it out, or if it really does make no difference at the end of the day.

Some other experts who backed up the intestine fact added that it does not matter, but did not say why. I just intend to find out why. Calorie deficits can lead to two different kinds of weight loss.[/QUOTE]

That's the thing though. Literally have oatmeal in the morning and maybe some rice pre-workout, and you won't ever have to worry about empty glycogen stores.

I do agree with you thinking you might be jumping the gun. I've said it before, but I think you're going to cheat yourself out of some gains by overanalyzing everything. I was in a similar spot a couple years ago, where I was poring over studies trying to figure out exactly how many sets per week to hit, and in what rep range, to maximize muscle growth.
The result? My physique hardly changed in that time, because I was switching up my routine so frequently and neglecting some of the other important aspects of training. I promise you, whatever "boost" you think you're getting is 1) probably nonexistent, and 2) most certainly not 20%.

Using blood sugar is not a bad thing. Glycolysis is your body's preferred mechanism of energy production during exercise. Doesn't have any effect on your recomp. Also not really sure what you mean about the intestine releasing food--the small intestine is the main site of digestion and nutrient absorption, and the large intestine pretty much just absorbs water and does a bit of cleanup. Neither is releasing food.

[QUOTE=bLinkMoore;1649551423]
...
Also not really sure what you mean about the intestine releasing food--the small intestine is the main site of digestion and nutrient absorption, and the large intestine pretty much just absorbs water and does a bit of cleanup. Neither is releasing food.[/QUOTE]

I was being loose with my word choice. The small intestine releases monohydrates, fats, (or fatty acids?), and amino acids into the blood. I did not mean food particles out the rear.

My concern is that low intensity cardio can burn 66% fat and 34% glycogen, unless the cardio happens when the small intestine is releasing fuel into the blood, in which case it burns what is going into the blood, which is likely far less than 66% fat.

I'd rather use my morning walk to burn fat, and then let my breakfast use carbs to fill glycogen, so that when I have more calorie deficit later, I have that glycogen ready as a buffer to keep my muscles from getting catabolised.

The only downside to my 90 minute morning walk is I'd rather break it up into three 30 minute walks. But oh well. Hikes are longer than that.

OP, you keep chasing these boosts that are basically nonexistent. you don't "use your morning walk to burn fat". all you need to focus on right now is your training along with hitting your calorie and macro targets

not trying to give you any crazy ideas, but what if you're missing 50% of your gains because your form is not perfect? what if you're doing slightly too many or too little reps for suboptimal gains? what if your program isn't the best possible one for you? what if you recruit the wrong muscle slightly on a compound lift and it messes with recovery of said muscle?

also, i meant that you dropped "0." from your post, as in, 0.20% boost if even that

I'm now reading the night eaters don't claim muscle is lost due to lack of glycogen. It is lost due to your intestines and other tissues becoming anabolic at night. They get their protein from your muscle, unless you give them protein at night.


I doubt much is needed. And too much can hinder fat burn. It has to be released slowly.

Whey definitely stops fat burn at night. Maybe pb stops that, but I'd not chance it.




...




I found this: [url]https://www.gainful.com/blog/protein-absorption-rate-chart/[/url]
It says protein should be taken throughout the day or else it gets pissed out more before use. Also says pea protein is the fastest plant protein but not as fast as whey, but builds muscle just was well as whey in a 12 week study. Casein is at the other extreme because it forms curds.

Also found most cottage cheese has whey added. I don't know how much. And the fat free stuff has corn starch added.

Last night I mixed plant protein with fiber before bed.

[QUOTE=Darkius;1649556583]
It says protein should be taken throughout the day or else it gets pissed out more before use. [/QUOTE]

This just affirms that you need to learn more about physiology, nutrition, etc. before going down these rabbit holes. You excrete a minuscule amount of protein in urine compared to daily intake, and it is absolutely not enough to make a noticeable difference. It is true though that protein should generally be spread out throughout the day to optimize MPS--not because you're pissing out the excess.

Again, it's not an inherently bad thing that you want to apply science to get the most out of your diet and training. But you're making it a hindrance to yourself by overdoing it. Hit your macro goals, go for your walks without worrying about glycogen depletion or what % of fat you're burning (news flash, it doesn't matter) and train hard, consistently, on a decent program.

[QUOTE=bLinkMoore;1649593613]This just affirms that you need to learn more about physiology, nutrition, etc. before going down these rabbit holes. You excrete a minuscule amount of protein in urine compared to daily intake, and it is absolutely not enough to make a noticeable difference. It is true though that protein should generally be spread out throughout the day to optimize MPS--not because you're pissing out the excess.

Again, it's not an inherently bad thing that you want to apply science to get the most out of your diet and training. But you're making it a hindrance to yourself by overdoing it. Hit your macro goals, go for your walks without worrying about glycogen depletion or what % of fat you're burning (news flash, it doesn't matter) and train hard, consistently, on a decent program.[/QUOTE]this again. i rarely accuse people of trolling, but it's getting to the point where OP blatantly ignores the part where we say it doesn't matter and keeps on rambling about this stuff. here's something i didn't fully understand:

[QUOTE=Darkius;1649556583]I doubt much is needed. And too much can hinder fat burn. It has to be released slowly.

Whey definitely stops fat burn at night. Maybe pb stops that, but I'd not chance it.[/QUOTE]why even complicate it so much that you can't eat X or Y at night because you [B]think[/B] it's going to compromise your fat loss? back when i was cutting, i ate whey oatmeal or whey yogurt nearly every night before bed and still managed to hit 11-12% bf with zero problems. i seriously doubt avoiding whey at night or eating more or less of a certain macro at a certain time of the day would've made any difference. the "don't look past the basics" sticky is named like that for a reason, just like there's a reason why nobody else does this: it doesn't work, and even if it did, the difference would be so insignificant that you would not see or feel it in any way. it's like working for 8 hours for your basic pay, and then working for another 8 hours to make a few cents at most

like bLink said, being curious about this stuff is fine, but it seems like you're obsessed with applying this stuff to your own lifting journey, when in reality, you have a ton of other things to work on for an actual boost in gains (form/technique, trying out different movements + set/rep schemes)

[QUOTE=faithbrah;1649613433]this again. i rarely accuse people of trolling, but it's getting to the point where OP blatantly ignores the part where we say it doesn't matter and keeps on rambling about this stuff. here's something i didn't fully understand:

why even complicate it so much that you can't eat X or Y at night because you [B]think[/B] it's going to compromise your fat loss? back when i was cutting, i ate whey oatmeal or whey yogurt nearly every night before bed and still managed to hit 11-12% bf with zero problems. i seriously doubt avoiding whey at night or eating more or less of a certain macro at a certain time of the day would've made any difference. the "don't look past the basics" sticky is named like that for a reason, just like there's a reason why nobody else does this: it doesn't work, and even if it did, the difference would be so insignificant that you would not see or feel it in any way. it's like working for 8 hours for your basic pay, and then working for another 8 hours to make a few cents at most

like bLink said, being curious about this stuff is fine, but it seems like you're obsessed with applying this stuff to your own lifting journey, when in reality, you have a ton of other things to work on for an actual boost in gains (form/technique, trying out different movements + set/rep schemes)[/QUOTE]

I no longer think he's trolling - seems like some neurosis to purposely complicate things in order to justify being on this site for 5 yrs, still a novice and in the same shape - rather than just eat right & hit the weights properly like you & many others have suggested.

It's a shame, because diet & exercise could prob relieve some of this anxiety & obsession, instead of being used as a method to feed it, and keep things stagnant as a result.

[QUOTE=air2fakie;1649614853]I no longer think he's trolling - seems like some neurosis to purposely complicate things in order to justify being on this site for 5 yrs, still a novice and in the same shape - rather than just eat right & hit the weights properly like you & many others have suggested.

It's a shame, because diet & exercise could prob relieve some of this anxiety & obsession, instead of being used as a method to feed it, and keep things stagnant as a result.[/QUOTE]

While I agree with you both, I can also somewhat sympathize with the obsessive fixations on inconsequential things, if sincere.

[QUOTE=EliKoehn;1649649723]While I agree with you both, I can also somewhat sympathize with the obsessive fixations on inconsequential things, if sincere.[/QUOTE]

When behavior/ideas are taken to the extreme (particularly on OPs deleted threads), there's a bigger issue. Nothing is going to replace hard work in/out of the gym and suitable, logical eating habits.

Many people don't like exercising or eating sensibly, so they spend endless time talking about it or reading things online to avoid it.

[QUOTE=EliKoehn;1649649723]While I agree with you both, I can also somewhat sympathize with the obsessive fixations on inconsequential things, if sincere.[/QUOTE]


Inconsequential:

If it is true that low intensity cardio burns 66% of calories as fat, that could be a lot of fat burned in 90 minutes. I then replace the 33% carbs on top of my normal cut and got a free jump ahead. Not inconsequential.

What disturbs me is the claim that fat cells are limited in how much fat they can release to only 31 kcal per pound of body fat. In my case that is 1000 cal per day (nice) but only 40 kcal per hour, if the limit is minute by minute and not some total limit.

There in lies the issue: 66% of 150 cal per 30 minutes of exercise is 200 kcal per hour fat loss, 5x as much as 40 kcal.


That makes me wonder if sports classes are wrong or missquoted. Maybe they really mean 66% of energy is supplied by slow twitch muscles, which are capable of burning fat if it is in the blood from diet.

Forum bug is annoying. Continuing last paragraph:
If that is the case, my morning cardio would just be torching glycogen and then muscle. So that is a critical question to answer.


Sleep burns 50 cal per hour. If 75% is fat, that falls under the 40 cal, but would mean lean people are reliant on lots of glycogen or muscle overnight unless the body fat can release more than 31 kcal per pound per day.

Another sanity check is that starving would leave me with bmr 1600 cal. With 1000 from fat, 600+ would come from muscle. My muscle would burn up before my fat would.

That raises the question of whether starving people die fat, or if they lose their body fat. I wonder if we have enough known cases that started relatively pudgy.


So now I'm calling into question the 31 cal per pound per day claim. I do believe a limit exists, I just don't know if it is that low or if that is prorated minute by minute or has a different limiting method.

When reading about energy sources in that article, I'll pay very close to the wording to see if they really say 66% of calories burned as fat even on a low fat diet.



As for muscle lost at night, the trade between skeletal muscle and smooth muscle and skin could be bigger than you think.

[QUOTE=Darkius;1649654623]Another sanity check[/QUOTE]

See a therapist (srs).

But are you curious in a purely technical, scientific way, or are you simply wanting good results, as are perceived in general by both yourself and others? A2F is right: none of these minute or infinitesimal details are going to sum up or synthesize to anything which defies the necessity of the mandatory hard work along time-tested basic guidelines, stickied in these forums and relayed incessantly by its regular posters.

[QUOTE=air2fakie;1649652953]When behavior/ideas are taken to the extreme (particularly on OPs deleted threads), there's a bigger issue. Nothing is going to replace hard work in/out of the gym and suitable, logical eating habits.

Many people don't like exercising or eating sensibly, so they spend endless time talking about it or reading things online to avoid it.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I didn't take it from that angle, but it does almost sound like he's aiming to [i]avoid[/i] with these quandaries, rather than meandering into them in addition to performing basic stuff. Have to admit I didn't read all of these threads.

[QUOTE=Darkius;1649654623]
my morning cardio would just be torching glycogen and then muscle. So that is a critical question to answer.
[/QUOTE]

No it wouldn't, and no it isn't. This is the point we're trying to make. You're obsessing over things that you don't fully understand, and that don't make a difference anyways. You're not torching muscle by doing a bit of cardio in mornings.

[QUOTE=EliKoehn;1649658313]



Yeah, I didn't take it from that angle, but it does almost sound like he's aiming to [i]avoid[/i] with these quandaries, rather than meandering into them in addition to performing basic stuff. Have to admit I didn't read all of these threads.[/QUOTE]


I currently do full body 3x per week, and morning cardio.

I have an opposite suspicion, that body builders who avoid significant cardio are looking for excuses because they don't like cardio.

Since you all say timing does not matter, I'll continue my four 440ish cal meals and 100 cal sleep snack with fiber, and will continue doing about an hour of low intensity cardio most mornings, and lift later after a meal or 2. I feel safe enough with that, but am spending my off time researching to make sure. Shorter cardio days will fall on lift days, with low intensity in the morning and HIIT in the evening after the lifts.

My waist shrank 3/4" in 3 weeks, I've lost at least a pound, and my reps have all gone up 25%, typically from 16 to 20, so Ill add weight next time.

[QUOTE=Darkius;1649681563]I currently do full body 3x per week, and morning cardio.

I have an opposite suspicion, that body builders who avoid significant cardio are looking for excuses because they don't like cardio.

Since you all say timing does not matter, I'll continue my four 440ish cal meals and 100 cal sleep snack with fiber, and will continue doing about an hour of low intensity cardio most mornings, and lift later after a meal or 2. [B]I feel safe enough with that, but am spending my off time researching to make sure[/B]. Shorter cardio days will fall on lift days, with low intensity in the morning and HIIT in the evening after the lifts.

My waist shrank 3/4" in 3 weeks, I've lost at least a pound, and my reps have all gone up 25%, typically from 16 to 20, so Ill add weight next time.[/QUOTE]the thing is, it's been researched already - otherwise we would all be doing it in hopes of a significant boost in gains

and are you saying you're trying to hit 20 reps before adding more weight? what's your program like?

[QUOTE=faithbrah;1649708793]the thing is, it's been researched already[/QUOTE]

Not the small intestine fuel dump rate. Clearly that's the secret behind OP losing 1 lb in 3 weeks.

[QUOTE=faithbrah;1649708793]the thing is, it's been researched already - otherwise we would all be doing it in hopes of a significant boost in gains

and are you saying you're trying to hit 20 reps before adding more weight? what's your program like?[/QUOTE]

Full body, MWF: rowing, lats, face pulls, chest press, dead lifts, squats, lateral raises, some tricep pulls downs and bicep curls thrown in, and calf raises and other small stuff at the end or between sets. I aim for 3 sets per muscle group but go over a bit on some especially back since I'm fixing my posture.
I aim for 1 rep in reserve and failure at least once a week but often more.
I do an hour of morning LISS, hr 105-130, and do 20-30 minutes of HIIT a few times a week.

Legs are not yet to failure since rehabbing a knee injury. Just upper body to failure. And I've not taken my lower back or abs to failure either. Grip has limited the deadlift. I'm easing into it. I have a trainer watching my form.

Either I'm eating more than I think or not burning as much as I think, but I'll just increase my low intensity cardio time until the weight comes down. I'm not going below 1800 calories counted. A slower cut means more chance for beginner muscle gain.

Another new thing I read is that fructose is only processed by the liver. Body cells only burn glucose or fat. I did not know that before. The liver turns fructose to glucose unless it is overwhelmed, such as a big soda chugged, in which case it turns the fructose to fat, if I remember correctly.


I also read that slow twitch muscles burn excess blood sugar first before fat. I have personal proof. My heart rate is lower at higher exercise intensity if it is just long enough after a meal to catch the peak, vs otherwise.



...

IMO, hunger after cardio is not because the body knows fat was lost. It is because carbs were lost. Suppose you burn 300 calories, 150 fat, 150 glucose. The body wants the 150 glucose calories back. It does not care about the 150 fat. Exception is if you exceeded normal dietary carbs right during the workout. Then no loss, no need back.

So, I have to burn 7000 calories to lose a pound via exercise and not have hunger cravings from lost glycogen. Fat partially energizes glycogen replacement, but how much is unknown and possibly small for actual replacement.

Well, I have to say, that you seem to be following a well-structured program. 16-20 reps is too many for you to be working with sufficient resistance for optimal hypertrophy or strength, however.

Watch OP post an avi or upload a lift that puts all of us to shame lol.