Can't fix bad fat:muscle partitioning on cut/bulk. Tried everything for years.

Essentially the title. For the past 7 years I have tried Stronglifts, GCLP, 5/3/1, all sorts of recommended splits, Upper/Lower, PPL rigorously for months, years. Experimented with high volume, low volume, high intensity, high/low frequency. There were periods when I was killing myself in the gym, the were periods where I was very conservatively training. As for the diet, tried slow healthy bulk/cut, dirty bulk / large deficit. No matter what I do it is always the same result, I do get stronger and muscular on bulk but gain too much fat, lose some fat on cut and too much muscle. I have never seen my abs. I am getting desperate, can it just be that my genetics are bad? What else can I try?

Height? Weight?

Pics are required for best advice.

[QUOTE=xsquid99;1645368853]Height? Weight?

Pics are required for best advice.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for your reply.

Height: 184 cm (6 feet)
Current weight: 76 kg (167.5 lbs)

At one point I was around 65 kg, lost all muscles and still had a belly. Went as high as 85 kg once too, had even bigger belly and breasts.

Photos attached, just made them:

[QUOTE=emin2015;1645365273]What else can I try?[/QUOTE]

Hard to say but it sounds like you're just repeatedly gaining and losing mostly fat, rather than muscle.

This may be the result of trying "everything" even if spread out over the course of 7 years. It sounds like you haven't stuck to any one program or protocol for long enough for your lifts to really improve or see real results.

The solution might not be finding something else to try too.

I'm convinced that I did in fact stick long enough to a protocol. I did make progress with lifts, consistently. It's just that my body did not look good. I lifted 120kg squats for 4-5 reps, 135 kg deadlift for 3-4 reps, 90 kg bench for 3-4 reps at around 82kg of body weight. I still looked fat, even though bulked slowly. Lost muscle when cut after.

You need to be consistent and stick to a plan. Select a good training program that’s proven that is made up of mostly compound movements and eat in a calorie deficit that will get rid of fat and allow you to keep the muscle you have and then once you’re lean enough to your liking you can reverse diet use that same training program and put muscle on. People that program hop too often seem to never really get any real results

[QUOTE=emin2015;1645378043]I'm convinced that I did in fact stick long enough to a protocol. I did make progress with lifts, consistently. It's just that my body did not look good. I lifted 120kg squats for 4-5 reps, 135 kg deadlift for 3-4 reps, 90 kg bench for 3-4 reps at around 82kg of body weight. I still looked fat, even though bulked slowly. Lost muscle when cut after.[/QUOTE]

IMO if you approached lifting in a more limited and consistent manner, rather than trying "everything", after 7 years your lifts would be better and you'd be happier with your current state. But it's really up to you if you're convinced otherwise.

How much are you lifting for your major compound lifts?

Bench, squat, deadlift, OHP?

[QUOTE=emin2015;1645378043]I'm convinced that I did in fact stick long enough to a protocol. I did make progress with lifts, consistently. It's just that my body did not look good. I lifted 120kg squats for 4-5 reps, 135 kg deadlift for 3-4 reps, 90 kg bench for 3-4 reps at around 82kg of body weight. I still looked fat, even though bulked slowly. Lost muscle when cut after.[/QUOTE]

Your body is pretty much what I'd expect with those numbers.

[QUOTE=Tommy W.;1645378243]You need to be consistent and stick to a plan. Select a good training program that’s proven that is made up of mostly compound movements and eat in a calorie deficit that will get rid of fat and allow you to keep the muscle you have and then once you’re lean enough to your liking you can reverse diet use that same training program and put muscle on. People that program hop too often seem to never really get any real results[/QUOTE]

I think you should do this OP. Lift hard and eat a small deficit and keep doing that until you're lean enough to your standards.

On spread.

Thank you everyone for your replies. I appreciate your advises!

Perhaps a couple clarifications. When I say tried everything, I don't mean that I changed protocols weekly. I was sticking to upper lower for 6-7 months, for example. Meticulously followed the protocol, nearly never skipped a day of training. The diet was also in check. I used apps to count calories and log each workout.

My point is how come some people, who never touched a dumbbell look lean and defined. And others with similar lifestyles just don't? There must be something more to it than the training and diet.

I guess I'll just follow your advise and do slow cut upper lower split for a long time.

[QUOTE=xsquid99;1645385683]How much are you lifting for your major compound lifts?

Bench, squat, deadlift, OHP?[/QUOTE]

I mentioned those in my second comment. Thank you!

[QUOTE=emin2015;1645398833]I mentioned those in my second comment. Thank you![/QUOTE]

Sorry! Totally missed that.

If you're lifting while you're in a deficit and getting sufficient protein then its pretty unlikely that you lost any significant muscle while cutting, what usually happens is people just get smaller and come to realize they had less muscle than they thought.

Tommy's advice is on point as usual, and program hopping is usually the cause. People never stick with one thing long enough because they get impatient, switch programs, and then lose whatever progress they had built. Another typical problem I see is just a lack of overall general effort in the gym. You need to stress your body for it to build muscle, and way too often I see people re-racking the weight with a "wooo, I maxed on on that one" when in actuality they were moving the weight just fine and looked like they still had at least 4-5 reps left in the tank.

[QUOTE=emin2015;1645398803]
My point is how come some people, who never touched a dumbbell look lean and defined. And others with similar lifestyles just don't? There must be something more to it than the training and diet.
[/QUOTE]

There are some people who have good genetics - that's one reason. But knowing this doesn't help you - what are you going to do, give up because you didn't win the genetic lottery same as almost everyone else?

There is no special trick (beyond illegal drug use) that you are missing. The combined advice already seen in this thread is basically it.

One suggestion I have is that if you have mostly done lower rep stuff, it might be worth trying higher volume higher rep training. People do respond differently to different protocols at times. You still have to be honest with yourself and make sure you are truly taking each set to within 1 rep of the point of failure. You have to get all your work done (10-15 hard sets per bodypart per week) and you still need to see measurable progressive overload.

OP, if you lifted hard during your cut and got enough protein, you didn't "lose a lot of muscle". You simply had less muscle than you thought. (Assuming you weren't on some crazy 1000 calorie a day diet.)

Again, thank you gentlemen for the advice. I will incorporate your recommendations in my protocol, I'll report on the progress after 1 year. :-)

Great community!

[QUOTE=emin2015;1645365273]Essentially the title. For the past 7 years I have tried Stronglifts, GCLP, 5/3/1, all sorts of recommended splits, Upper/Lower, PPL rigorously for months, years. Experimented with high volume, low volume, high intensity, high/low frequency. There were periods when I was killing myself in the gym, the were periods where I was very conservatively training. As for the diet, tried slow healthy bulk/cut, dirty bulk / large deficit. No matter what I do it is always the same result, I do get stronger and muscular on bulk but gain too much fat, lose some fat on cut and too much muscle. I have never seen my abs. I am getting desperate, can it just be that my genetics are bad? What else can I try?[/QUOTE]

Probably a combination of not training very effectively, and not bulking and cutting very effectively. We definitely know your cuts don't go well since you've never seen your abs. Plus lack of patience and unrealistic expectations. Maybe not, but usually the case. Pics of your physique would help.

[QUOTE=MG5;1645426033]Probably a combination of not training very effectively, and not bulking and cutting very effectively. We definitely know your cuts don't go well since you've never seen your abs. Plus lack of patience and unrealistic expectations. Maybe not, but usually the case. Pics of your physique would help.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for your reply. The pics are attached to my second comment.

[QUOTE=emin2015;1645437643]Thank you for your reply. The pics are attached to my second comment.[/QUOTE]

Your training is most likely off. I dont mean your training program, but how you're performing the exercises. Lots of people, like 90% people in the gym, make the mistake of mindlessly moving weight around from point A to point B, with no internal focus on the muscle being worked. They aren't working muscles, they're just moving weights. Your lats are pretty good though.

6-7 months isn’t going to just build massive amounts of muscle.

You need to cut till you lose your gut. Then a very slow bulk with a really good routine where you are really pushing yourself 4 days a week at the gym. Your lifts have never been above the low end of intermediate. Your training sucks, are you even sore? How often do you work out a week? For how long? How many gym days do you skip?

[QUOTE=snailsrus;1645488933]6-7 months isn’t going to just build massive amounts of muscle.

You need to cut till you lose your gut. Then a very slow bulk with a really good routine where you are really pushing yourself 4 days a week at the gym. Your lifts have never been above the low end of intermediate. Your training sucks, are you even sore? How often do you work out a week? For how long? How many gym days do you skip?[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your comment.

1. I am only sore when I progress in my lifts, so usually on a bulk or if I am returning to an exercise after I haven't done it in a while.
2. Currently it has been 3 times a week Upper/Lower split for the last 2 months. Before that I did 6 days a week P/P/L for 2 months straight.
3. My workout lasts 40-50 mins, as in the workout itself. Not counting time for change, showers, etc.
4. Normally I don't skip, only if injured or traveling (which is just a couple of weeks a year).

I know something is not right, that is why I reached out to you guys. I cannot figure it out myself (very bad fatty genetics perhaps).

[QUOTE=xsquid99;1645398993]Sorry! Totally missed that.

If you're lifting while you're in a deficit and getting sufficient protein then its pretty unlikely that you lost any significant muscle while cutting, what usually happens is people just get smaller and come to realize they had less muscle than they thought.

Tommy's advice is on point as usual, and program hopping is usually the cause. People never stick with one thing long enough because they get impatient, switch programs, and then lose whatever progress they had built. Another typical problem I see is just a lack of overall general effort in the gym. You need to stress your body for it to build muscle, and way too often I see people re-racking the weight with a "wooo, I maxed on on that one" when in actuality they were moving the weight just fine and looked like they still had at least 4-5 reps left in the tank.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your reply.

If one doesn't push himself hard enough on a lift, would not that translate into not progressing on that lift? It usually is not the case with me. If I am on a 200-300 cal surplus, I will progress on that lift pretty linearly. On a 2nd-3rd workout I would usually increase the weight/ reps.

What bothers me, is that when I get bigger subjectively I get too much fat. My guesstimation is way worse that 50/50 fat to muscle ratio. And when I cut, I get weaker rapidly, while still holding on to that fat.

This is my main concern.

[QUOTE=emin2015;1645523653]Thanks for your reply.

If one doesn't push himself hard enough on a lift, would not that translate into not progressing on that lift? It usually is not the case with me. If I am on a 200-300 cal surplus, I will progress on that lift pretty linearly. On a 2nd-3rd workout I would usually increase the weight/ reps.

What bothers me, is that when I get bigger subjectively I get too much fat. My guesstimation is way worse that 50/50 fat to muscle ratio. And when I cut, I get weaker rapidly, while still holding on to that fat.

This is my main concern.[/QUOTE]

How are your pullups progressing? Bench and squat will increase when you add more body mass (fat as well) so if your pullups are not improving or worsening I would use that as a sign of something going wrong.

[QUOTE=EiFit91;1645524583]How are your pullups progressing? Bench and squat will increase when you add more body mass (fat as well) so if your pullups are not improving or worsening I would use that as a sign of something going wrong.[/QUOTE]

An interesting point. I would not say that my pullups worsen, however they are definitely not progressing as well as bench is for example. Right now I can do 3x10 pullups with my current bodyweight. At best I could do 13-14 reps on the first set, perhaps.