Is 5x5 too much volume?

[QUOTE=BulkingIsHard;1628818643]Is there something wrong with 3 days on followed by 2 days off?[/QUOTE]

Misunderstood your program just now for the second time. I’m sleepy. Going to bed.

[QUOTE=BulkingIsHard;1628818643]Is there something wrong with 3 days on followed by 2 days off?[/QUOTE]

You’re basically running a PPL with 1.4x/week frequency. I’d say it’s fine if your goal is hypertrophy and you’re at the level where you can get the most out of your weekly volume requirements in less sessions throughout the week. Though, since your goal is strength, I’d recommend at least 2x/week. Maybe change it to U/L:

D1: Bench + upper push/pull assistance/accessories
D2: Squat + quad/ham assistance/accessories
D4: OHP + upper push/pull assistance/accessories
D6: Deadlift + quad/ham assistance/accessories

^^^ Would be a much better setup. About the same amount of weekly workouts too.

On the 5x5 matter, I’d say it’s pretty terrible for main lift progression even for novices. For novices I’d do straight sets for 3x5 and for intermediates and above I’d ramp up to a top set and do back offs and/or lower intensity supplemental lifts for volume work. Intensity meaning % of 1RM as I think you’re using it to describe intra-set exertion.

[QUOTE=leidenesLK;1628832773]You’re basically running a PPL with 1.4x/week frequency. I’d say it’s fine if your goal is hypertrophy and you’re at the level where you can get the most out of your weekly volume requirements in less sessions throughout the week. Though, since your goal is strength, I’d recommend at least 2x/week. Maybe change it to U/L:

D1: Bench + upper push/pull assistance/accessories
D2: Squat + quad/ham assistance/accessories
D4: OHP + upper push/pull assistance/accessories
D6: Deadlift + quad/ham assistance/accessories

^^^ Would be a much better setup. About the same amount of weekly workouts too.

On the 5x5 matter, I’d say it’s pretty terrible for main lift progression even for novices. For novices I’d do straight sets for 3x5 and for intermediates and above I’d ramp up to a top set and do back offs and/or lower intensity supplemental lifts for volume work. Intensity meaning % of 1RM as I think you’re using it to describe intra-set exertion.[/QUOTE]

Interesting, will try. Is D5 a rest day to give legs a little extra time to recover? Why is there only 2 days between D6 and D2 then?

Also, I have an imbalance where my front delts are really strong and stealing gains from my chest, is there no problem ditching OHP for another bench day?

[QUOTE=BulkingIsHard;1628815113]Fair enough, I just felt miserable today for some reason. Took longer than usual for deadlifts and got spots/lights in my vision after the last set when I was reracking.[/QUOTE]
If you are cutting/aren't fueled well, that could cause fatigue during training. When I was doing 2 hour workouts and bulking I'd have a snack mid workout to get some more energy. My gym had bananas and apples for the taking, which are great for a few simple carbs/sugars to power through a longer workout.

[QUOTE=BulkingIsHard;1628867743]Interesting, will try. Is D5 a rest day to give legs a little extra time to recover? Why is there only 2 days between D6 and D2 then?

Also, I have an imbalance where my front delts are really strong and stealing gains from my chest, is there no problem ditching OHP for another bench day?[/QUOTE]

Yep. A rest day before and after deadlift day. It’s not mandatory to do that, but it’s the best way to run it IMO. Alternatively you can run it D1,D2,D4,D5 if you want the weekends off. Regarding the days between D6 and D2, there’s literally no other way to run 2x/week frequency without that happening. Each muscle group gets 2 and 3 days between being hit again. Just a feature of a 7 day cycle.

I think a standing press is too important to ditch for the structural benefits it provides. With that said, there’s nothing stopping you from adding extra chest work for the assistance/accessory component of the OHP day.

The body adapts

[QUOTE=xsquid99;1628802583]I ran a 5x5 for my first 6 months, wasn't a fan of it for precisely this reason. I'm with TolerantLactose above, if they expect you to get to the 5th rep on the 5th set and be at say RPE 8-9 then your first 2-3 sets are at a much lower intensity and are in fact "glorified warmups", unless you're resting 10 minutes between each set.

I prefer a pyramid scheme where I pyramid up to a top set and then back down, using a range of 5-8 reps. Example 8 reps at 225 lbs, then 5-6 reps at 235 lbs, then back down to 225 for as many reps as possible (usually 6).[/QUOTE]

I like them as a test of strength endurance. Not sure that line of reasoning makes complete sense. RPE doesn't have to increase so much between sets. You can be at RPE 8 on set one, 8.5 on the second and maybe third, then your last two are where you're skirting the line of failure.

In my experience with 5 x 5s, every set is quite challenging.

[QUOTE=BulkingIsHard;1628793813]1st set is like 6 or 7/10 intensity.
By the last set I’m completely dead.
Takes me like 30 minutes including warmup.
Always get light headed, and barely have energy left for accessories.

I’m used to less volume like 3x5 or even 3x3 which I find much more manageable and enjoyable, but I started to plateau so I guessed it was because I didn’t have enough volume.

Edit: just to clarify I mean 5x5 only for compounds, not stronglifts[/QUOTE]
I use to do these 12 week workouts by Lee Hayward that had a bunch of 5x5 compounds...
It worked great for me to gain strength

[QUOTE=fcrazy;1628910693]The body adapts[/QUOTE]
most definitely

[QUOTE=jademonkey;1628908463]If you are cutting/aren't fueled well, that could cause fatigue during training. When I was doing 2 hour workouts and bulking I'd have a snack mid workout to get some more energy. My gym had bananas and apples for the taking, which are great for a few simple carbs/sugars to power through a longer workout.[/QUOTE]
I love how you put "pre covid" !!!!
Damn killed me

[QUOTE=xsquid99;1628802583]I ran a 5x5 for my first 6 months, wasn't a fan of it for precisely this reason. I'm with TolerantLactose above, if they expect you to get to the 5th rep on the 5th set and be at say RPE 8-9 then your first 2-3 sets are at a much lower intensity and are in fact "glorified warmups", unless you're resting 10 minutes between each set.

I prefer a pyramid scheme where I pyramid up to a top set and then back down, using a range of 5-8 reps. Example 8 reps at 225 lbs, then 5-6 reps at 235 lbs, then back down to 225 for as many reps as possible (usually 6).[/QUOTE]

that isn't the fault of the 5x5 though. 5x5 is just a rep scheme. If you want each set of a 5x5 to an RPE 8, you simply select a weight that will get you in that ball park (based off an estimated daily max or top single or however you want to do it). Since you probably won't be able to maintain an RPE 8 using the same weight for 5 sets, you would adjust accordingly. It's mostly a problem of using just strictly percentages, based on a e1RM that can fluctuate daily on a fixed amount of sets and reps. RPE simply solves all those problems you just mentioned.

Wouldn't necessarily say the first few sets are glorified warmups, not every set needs to RPE 8+. But this would depend on the percentage you select (5x5 is typically 75-80% of 1RM), if closer to 75% the first set is probably too easy but if closer to 80% the first set is probably still stimulating, it's just that if you are using straight weight you'd probably reach close to an RPE 10 on your last set.

[QUOTE=sooby;1629043743]that isn't the fault of the 5x5 though. 5x5 is just a rep scheme. If you want each set of a 5x5 to an RPE 8, you simply select a weight that will get you in that ball park (based off an estimated daily max or top single or however you want to do it). Since you probably won't be able to maintain an RPE 8 using the same weight for 5 sets, you would adjust accordingly. It's mostly a problem of using just strictly percentages, based on a e1RM that can fluctuate daily on a fixed amount of sets and reps. RPE simply solves all those problems you just mentioned.

Wouldn't necessarily say the first few sets are glorified warmups, not every set needs to RPE 8+. But this would depend on the percentage you select (5x5 is typically 75-80% of 1RM), if closer to 75% the first set is probably too easy but if closer to 80% the first set is probably still stimulating, it's just that if you are using straight weight you'd probably reach close to an RPE 10 on your last set.[/QUOTE]

I think he's referring to a straight 5x5 using the same weight for each set, which is also what I had in mind, where weight is not variable.

[QUOTE=EliKoehn;1629047723]I think he's referring to a straight 5x5 using the same weight for each set, which is also what I had in mind, where weight is not variable.[/QUOTE]

doesn't seem to specify in his original post or the post title, unless i missed something he said subsequently, but I guess maybe it can be inferred

but regardless fatigue in a workout can be managed by RPE and you don't need to do it in straight sets. it's not necessarily a case of too much volume because it kind of goes hand in hand with intensity/effort. you're probably not going to be able to do as much volume if every set is taken to failure and as a result you are going to feel very fatigued.

[QUOTE=BulkingIsHard;1628798503]I agree with you that the first couple feel easy, but like I said, [B]some people would argue it doesn't matter how intense a workout is[/B], so long as you are getting in at least 20 reps of volume and lifting at least 80% of your 1 RM.

You are saying that the 5x5 is essentially a 2x5 or a 3x5 because the first few sets don't have sufficient stimulation.

Your opposition would say that all of those 25 reps have sufficient stimulation.[/QUOTE]

Upping the volume for growth has to do with hypertrophic training and metabolic stress. Upping the volume for strength has to do with rpe and progressing in intensity more gradually, allowing you to prime the movement in the first sets and work more for inches in a stretched workout near the end.

If I'm not wrong, I think that's why people say 5x5 is good for both strength and hypertrophy for beginners, but tends to become old hat for hypertrophy as you go on.

I'm kind of like you where I'm more interested in strength. Before I improved form and posture I mainly like doing like 7 to 8 sets per workout, but would do that for sets of 2 or sets of 8. I also like doing close to once a week.

Straight set 5x5 is one of the golden era HYPERTROPHY protocols...NOT a strength setup.

Its pretty crap for peak strength adaptations... The %s are just to low to call it a 'strength protocol'
You want singles in there or at least a top set.

It falls in a weird place of not enough % for peak str adaptations and a terrible stimulus:fatigue if you try to grind like you are still a novice

However much I personally think the regular texas method is **** for various other reasons . Even rip has it right there....

Mondays 5*5 is volume day
Wed light 3x5 is revovery day
Fridays Top set of 1*5 or 1*3 is the "strength' day.

[QUOTE=MyEgoProblem;1629091363]Straight set 5x5 is one of the golden era HYPERTROPHY protocols...NOT a strength setup.

Its pretty crap for peak strength adaptations... The %s are just to low to call it a 'strength protocol'
You want singles in there or at least a top set.

It falls in a weird place of not enough % for peak str adaptations and a terrible stimulus:fatigue if you try to grind like you are still a novice

However much I personally think the regular texas method is **** for various other reasons . Even rip has it right there....

Mondays 5*5 is volume day
Wed light 3x5 is revovery day
Fridays Top set of 1*5 or 1*3 is the "strength' day.[/QUOTE]



this as well lol, I meant to say this but then BB.com decided to chit the bed on me and access denied my post so I kept the post shorter. 5x5 is around 75-80% 1RM which really doesn't provide the direct strength adaptations needed for performing a 1RM. could be used as a volume accumulation phase though to get some extra reps in and build muscle. it'd be considered on the very high end of volume on a program designed to maximize strength.

it was touted as a general size and strength protocol as far back as reg park, which I guess still rings true to this day; just not optimal if looking to build maximal/peak strength (you'd probably want some heavy singles, doubles and triples), and certainly wouldn't be something you do 2 weeks out from trying to go for your absolute best 1RM or a powerlifting meet. you'd probably see similar hypertrophy doing a 3x8 vs a 5x5, I think there was a study done by Schoenfeld there wasn't a significant difference in hypertrophy between a 7x4 and a 3x12, and there are plenty of other studies that show hypertrophy is similar among a wide variety of rep/set protocols. obviously one has less sets and from a hypertrophy per set standpoint or per time spent it would be more efficient.

I see. Thank you.

[QUOTE=sooby;1629148873]this as well lol, I meant to say this but then BB.com decided to chit the bed on me and access denied my post so I kept the post shorter. 5x5 is around 75-80% 1RM which really doesn't provide the direct strength adaptations needed for performing a 1RM. could be used as a volume accumulation phase though to get some extra reps in and build muscle. it'd be considered on the very high end of volume on a program designed to maximize strength.

it was touted as a general size and strength protocol as far back as reg park, which I guess still rings true to this day; just not optimal if looking to build maximal/peak strength (you'd probably want some heavy singles, doubles and triples), and certainly wouldn't be something you do 2 weeks out from trying to go for your absolute best 1RM or a powerlifting meet. you'd probably see similar hypertrophy doing a 3x8 vs a 5x5, I think there was a study done by Schoenfeld there wasn't a significant difference in hypertrophy between a 7x4 and a 3x12, and there are plenty of other studies that show hypertrophy is similar among a wide variety of rep/set protocols. obviously one has less sets and from a hypertrophy per set standpoint or per time spent it would be more efficient.[/QUOTE]

/thumbs up emoji

3-30 @6-10
Great for illiciting growth!

And certainly efficiency and stimulus:fatigue are the big differences for hyp purposes.

To which, as you know ofc, I prefer 6-15@8~ for more optimal efficiency and not having to do 10 sets a session to make the amount of hard sets up with too high of a %

And the need for higher %1rm for peak adaptations for peak str

What goals do you guys all have? I've always been told 8 to 12 reps is the sweet spot for getting big. You can even get muscle hypertrophy if you do 15 to 20 reps.

Am I wasting my time doing that? The low reps you guys are doing seems kind of risky and bad for the joints.

[QUOTE=Liberal3lite;1629283103]What goals do you guys all have? I've always been told 8 to 12 reps is the sweet spot for getting big. You can even get muscle hypertrophy if you do 15 to 20 reps.

Am I wasting my time doing that? The low reps you guys are doing seems kind of risky and bad for the joints.[/QUOTE]

What you where told Certainly is not wrong.
Its just incomplete.

3-30 reps
With 0-4 reps in reserve
(a good middle ground is 8-12/6-15 with 2 reps in the v tank)

Anything in that range will build muscle well.
To very similar levels a given similar number of sets performed.

Lower reps will certainly be more stressful...

[QUOTE=MyEgoProblem;1629284633]What you where told Certainly is not wrong.
Its just incomplete.

3-30 reps
With 0-4 reps in reserve
(a good middle ground is 8-12/6-15 with 2 reps in the v tank)

Anything in that range will build muscle well.
To very similar levels a given similar number of sets performed.

Lower reps will certainly be more stressful...[/QUOTE]

If someone has decent size all-around but their strength level lags behind the potential for their size, would you lean more on triples or something like Poliquin Clusters to train the neural efficiency?

[QUOTE=EliKoehn;1629309293]If someone has decent size all-around but their strength level lags behind the potential for their size, would you lean more on triples or something like Poliquin Clusters to train the neural efficiency?[/QUOTE]

Id have heavy singles in before the volume work 👍

[QUOTE=MyEgoProblem;1629325223]Id have heavy singles in before the volume work ������[/QUOTE]

I'll give it a shot, thanks.

[QUOTE=Liberal3lite;1629283103]What goals do you guys all have? I've always been told 8 to 12 reps is the sweet spot for getting big. You can even get muscle hypertrophy if you do 15 to 20 reps.

Am I wasting my time doing that? The low reps you guys are doing seems kind of risky and bad for the joints.[/QUOTE]

the "bros" aren't necessarily wrong and 8-12 reps is really good for building size. perhaps you can even argue from an efficiency and per set ratio that 8-12 could be superior. maybe, maybe not.

but the difference isn't night and day like popular lore would have you believe, they are similar even if only roughly volume equated.

if you only stick to 8-12 you are limiting yourself and pigeon-holing your training. you could even be leaving size gains on the table, as variety and novel stimuli can also be a pathway to growth.


for me personally "lower reps" and "higher reps" kinda beat me up differently. I can't speak for everybody but I've never seriously injured myself lifting a "heavy weight". That's not to say more "elite" and stronger lifters aren't at a higher risk to get injured and might not be true to everybody else. it's always the lighter chit that I don't take seriously that gets me lol, or doing something like eccentrics and tempo lifts.


for me heavy weights take up a lot more mental energy in preparation, a misgroove can make it feel way harder. wouldn't necessarily say they are bad for the joints. more stressful for the joints yeah and can beat you up over time. but that's why you have periodization and don't stick to the same thing for infinity. higher volume in general shoots your fatigue up more so than than heavy weights, it's why you'll see powerlifters taper their volume off leading up to a meet, but still practice heavy singles at 90+% of their max 1-2 weeks before the meet. if you know what you are doing you should be fine, i think some sort of injury is an inevitability at some point if you are in it long enough but the idea you'll absolutely wreck and destroy your joints, your back by the time you're 50 and all that other stuff IMO is kinda overblown. at the same time tho you don't really need to lift anything close to your 1 rep max or go above 90% of your 1RM.

[QUOTE=Liberal3lite;1629283103]What goals do you guys all have? I've always been told 8 to 12 reps is the sweet spot for getting big. You can even get muscle hypertrophy if you do 15 to 20 reps.

Am I wasting my time doing that? The low reps you guys are doing seems kind of risky and bad for the joints.[/QUOTE]

For hypertrophy I concur with what Paul Carter preaches: upper compound 8-12, lower compounds 12-20 and isolations 15-20

5x5 on big lifts like the squat will fry your ass if you are using the same weight, and going full intensity.

And resting 8 to 10 minutes between sets to use as much weight as possible. The workout will be much easier if you only rest 2-3 minutes.

Would rather shove a watermelon up my ass than do a flat 5x5 on squats with as much weight as possible

[QUOTE=MyEgoProblem;1629091363]
However much I personally think the regular texas method is **** for various other reasons . Even rip has it right there....

Mondays 5*5 is volume day
Wed light 3x5 is revovery day
Fridays Top set of 1*5 or 1*3 is the "strength' day.[/QUOTE]

Even rip doesn't recommend the texas method very often. He says its too easy to overtrain