Life After The Beginner Program

I will graduate All-Pro Beginner Novice version in another cycle or two and am shopping for the next program.

I enjoy adding size, but also have gotten the bug to get strongish like repping 225+ bench and squat 315+ without injuries.

50 years old, been doing the All-Pro for over a year because patience and figuring out nutrition, started low and slow to not break myself lol. Started 6'2" skinny 150lbs doing 95lb squats and I'm now just a thin 175lbs repping 205 squats this cycle - it's going easy/well so next cycle should be 225.

Love the whole body workout and feeling, but reading here understand pretty soon the volume I need will most likely require a split. Since I enjoy the full body I'm thinking about a push/pull split vs. a upper/lower type program but not at the detriment of what works. I will do whatever program I pick to a T.

It has to be simple. I don't want to yet have to learn decision trees for every workout "if X fails to Y but if Y is good at whatever % of Z deload but no more then <whatever> then remember to joker two times" is not my thing lol.

Workout has to be an hour or less. In another life I once tried the "Dr. Mike Israetel Training Volume Landmarks Hypertrophy Routine" and was in the gym for hours. Not (yet?) for me.

I can do as many days a week required since I workout at 5am, I always have time.

Equipment is barbell, squat rack, ironmaster dumbbells. I don't own any pulley systems or anything like that.


I just can't decide! I know nothing is forever and I can change programs if I hate it. I probably have a few months before my Bench graduates the All Pro, so I have time to overthink this for a while :)

HIT ME! What's next?

5/3/1 BBB
Greyskull LP
5x5
Fierce 5 upper/lower
All Pro Intermediate programs hurt my brain to read I can't do something complicated like this yet - EDIT: Oh wait I now just read past "Intermediate 1" and "Intermediate 2" seems like the bomb!
TAWS6 "Bored? Looking for a new program"

What else is out there?
Adding to list:
Starting Strength

Some people never go to split training... it depends on you and your goals. You can honestly stay on full body training for life but you need to change up how you program those fullbodies and the methods you use to progress. For instance, Starting Strength does sets across (3x5 all same weight) where Bill Starrs 5x5 does ramping sets (slowly working up to a top set of 5 and utlizing heavy, medium, and light days).

Personally, Bill Starr's 5x5 is the easiest most bang for your buck program. I love conjugate training as well but it's freedom allows for error if you don't program correctly. 5/3/1 is great too but personally... I find sometimes going for AMRAP's counter productive...it enforces bad technique and changes my mindset (which some don't have, just talking about myself) and without spotters, it's hard to push myself past a set number in my head.

Gun to my head.... If I was designing a life-time program for someone with access to a good gym... Starting Strength until that is milked for all it's worth, then Bill Starr's 5x5... then play with Westside for Skinny Bastards protocols for the rest of my career as I knew my body more.

Thank you!

I added Starting Strength to the list. Looks simple and great. Would you suggest starting completely over ie: Phase 1 if I choose Starting Strength as the next program after All Pro?

Have you stalled on All Pro? I wouldn't switch programs if you're seeing good results and making progress.

If you haven't stalled on All Pros but you are getting bored with it, then I would switch to another novice program and keep going until you stall on at least two compound lifts that don't include overhead press. Unless you're gifted at OHP, it usually stalls before squat/bench/deadlift and isn't a good indicator that it's time to move on from novice programming.

[QUOTE=jasonp360;1699191553]Equipment is barbell, squat rack, ironmaster dumbbells. I don't own any pulley systems or anything like that.
h[/QUOTE]

Get some exercise bands from Wal Mart. I hang mine from a ceiling joist in my garage along with a heavy punching bag and a gambrel to process deer.

[QUOTE=radrd;1699234683]Have you stalled on All Pro? I wouldn't switch programs if you're seeing good results and making progress.

If you haven't stalled on All Pros but you are getting bored with it, then I would switch to another novice program and keep going until you stall on at least two compound lifts that don't include overhead press. Unless you're gifted at OHP, it usually stalls before squat/bench/deadlift and isn't a good indicator that it's time to move on from novice programming.[/QUOTE]

Thank you that is great news for me.

Only Bench or OHP stalled a couple times. And, my OHP is low % of bench when comparing to the FAQ on where it should be. After the last bench stall it was recommended to me in the All Pro thread I switch from Beginner (2 sets 8-12 progression per cycle) to Novice (3 sets 5-8 rep progression per cycle) for Squat, Bench, Bent Over Rows. This is my first cycle doing that, and it feels easy that I will pass bench.

I love the program and am not bored. I am only shopping for the next one based on the "When do I graduate" in the All-Pro FAQ. I can happily keep doing this "Novice" variant until I stall out repeatedly again. I'm not chomping on the bit to switch anything up anytime soon, I just thought I "had" to once I hit the graduate milestone or risk leaving better gains on the table sticking with it too long. But now that I typed that out it makes sense if not stalling, just keep going! Thank you.

[QUOTE=jasonp360;1699237033]Thank you that is great news for me.

Only Bench or OHP stalled a couple times. And, my OHP is low % of bench when comparing to the FAQ on where it should be. After the last bench stall it was recommended to me in the All Pro thread I switch from Beginner (2 sets 8-12 progression per cycle) to Novice (3 sets 5-8 rep progression per cycle) for Squat, Bench, Bent Over Rows. This is my first cycle doing that, and it feels easy that I will pass bench.

I love the program and am not bored. I am only shopping for the next one based on the "When do I graduate" in the All-Pro FAQ. I can happily keep doing this "Novice" variant until I stall out repeatedly again. I'm not chomping on the bit to switch anything up anytime soon, I just thought I "had" to once I hit the graduate milestone or risk leaving better gains on the table sticking with it too long. But now that I typed that out it makes sense if not stalling, just keep going! Thank you.[/QUOTE]

Good call. If you like a program and you're making progress, there's no reason to switch. Beginner and novice programs are designed to help you makes as many gains as possible as quickly as possible. Intermediate programs are designed to help you keep making gains but at a slower pace because you can no longer reasonably expect to add weight or reps at regular intervals. Different frequency, intensity, and/or progression protocols are needed to keep making gains on some or even all of your lifts.

[QUOTE=paulinkansas;1699235013]Get some exercise bands from Wal Mart. I hang mine from a ceiling joist in my garage along with a heavy punching bag and a gambrel to process deer.[/QUOTE]

Way ahead of you :D

[img]https://forum.bodybuilding.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9424133[/IMG]

I couldn't get my Squats or bench reps in on this cycle on week 3 on heavy day
I'm still going to finish the cycle maybe I just had a bad day but I think that's unlikely

I've been you-tubing 531, Starting Strength, and Bill Star's 5x5 and it seems to 531 is for more intermediate, and SS is less volume then 5x5 so I should start with SS.

My questions are:

what weights do I start out with based on my 8-12 and 5 RM's from All Pro?
And
How do I make sure I'm not leaving All-Pro too soon? I'm not at 10x BW bench yet. I Keep failing around 5-6 reps BW bench. Squats although failed this cycle are over the 1.25 BW "graduate" number.

[QUOTE=jasonp360;1700444613]I couldn't get my Squats or bench reps in on this cycle on week 3 on heavy day
I'm still going to finish the cycle maybe I just had a bad day but I think that's unlikely

I've been you-tubing 531, Starting Strength, and Bill Star's 5x5 and it seems to 531 is for more intermediate, and SS is less volume then 5x5 so I should start with SS.

My questions are:

what weights do I start out with based on my 8-12 and 5 RM's from All Pro?
And
How do I make sure I'm not leaving All-Pro too soon? I'm not at 10x BW bench yet. I Keep failing around 5-6 reps BW bench. Squats although failed this cycle are over the 1.25 BW "graduate" number.[/QUOTE]

10xBW bench?

Starting Strength is a beginner strength program that will get you strong faster than most programs in the beginner stage if you follow the protocols. If you think your're 3x5 weight for a lift is x (say 150lbs for 3 sets of 5), start with 130 for week 1, 135 week 2, and gradually work back up. You want to grease the grooves of the lift.

[QUOTE=SuicideGripMe;1700447343]10xBW bench?

Starting Strength is a beginner strength program that will get you strong faster than most programs in the beginner stage if you follow the protocols. If you think your're 3x5 weight for a lift is x (say 150lbs for 3 sets of 5), start with 130 for week 1, 135 week 2, and gradually work back up. You want to grease the grooves of the lift.[/QUOTE]

BW body weight from the All-Pro FAQ:

[b]Q10: How do you know when you have "graduated" ALLPRO?[/b]
A: 10 reps of BW bench
10 reps of 1.25x-1.5x BW squats

So the closest I got to bench was 12x165 at 170 lbs body weight a few cycles ago and now I’m stalled at 170lbs bench x 4-5 reps at 172-175 lbs body weight after having to DROP to 155 bench last cycle. fFels like I am going backwards.

So do I keep repeating until 175x10 bench? Or bail, reset, and start Starting Strength.

In my first years starting up, I tried the splits cause that's what was the popular and prescribed thing to do in the magazines and online. Eventually I found fullbody training 3 times a week and went with that, still use it today and it's worked well for me over the years since. But upper/lower/rest was seemingly the one split I liked, didn't wear me out too much recovery wise, and left time for other things throughout the day. I think either of those is a solid way to go, but exercises sets and frequencies should be well planned either way so it's a sustainable program to do. Good luck.

[QUOTE=jasonp360;1700515553]BW body weight from the All-Pro FAQ:

[b]Q10: How do you know when you have "graduated" ALLPRO?[/b]
A: 10 reps of BW bench
10 reps of 1.25x-1.5x BW squats

So the closest I got to bench was 12x165 at 170 lbs body weight a few cycles ago and now I’m stalled at 170lbs bench x 4-5 reps at 172-175 lbs body weight after having to DROP to 155 bench last cycle. fFels like I am going backwards.

So do I keep repeating until 175x10 bench? Or bail, reset, and start Starting Strength.[/QUOTE]

Getting stronger on 10 reps is not as easy as 5 reps... 10 reps is not a strength rep range (yes, you can get stronger in that range but it's not strength specific). 5 reps is the sweet spot of strength and size (jack of all trades?)

Yes, just do starting strength if you care about strength. All Pro's is a fine program but not a strength specific program.

Another one to look at for strength after you exhaust your beginner/novice gains is 531.

[url]https://forums.t-nation.com/t/5-3-1-how-to-build-pure-strength/281694[/url]

[QUOTE=radrd;1700741603]Another one to look at for strength after you exhaust your beginner/novice gains is 531.

[url]https://forums.t-nation.com/t/5-3-1-how-to-build-pure-strength/281694[/url][/QUOTE]

Thank you. Check out this great caluclater for if and when the time comes

[url]https://blackironbeast.com/5/3/1/calculator[/url]

It has all the options, and you can even tell it what plates you have.

Right now I have decided to slug it out for 1-2 more cycles in All Pro with some tips from @nightanole in that thread. Then I will probably go to a variation of Starting Strengh, ultimately ending up at 531.

I think.

LOL

Thank you all for the direction that comes from experience. I'm gathering that ultimately I need to learn and choose what works for me by actually doing this stuff and seeing. I just don't know what I don't know and what I'm hearing is after successes and fails at these suggestions it starts to click more and more. It doesn't really seem like there is a wrong answer as long as I'm on the right track, which it seems to be the case (because of this forum and you guys).

I think.

LOL

:)

Suffering from analysis paralysis choosing the next program after I thought I decided.

Still slugging out All-Pro
Still adding each cycle
Bench stalled with a shoulder impingement, working through that it's almost healed up so pressing and benching still sucking, Squat and back still adding no problems every cycle.

Since I can't decide I think I am going to just keep going until squat and back stall too. Maybe by that time the bench and press stalls will have passed on their own - kind of like a barbecue - just keep going it'll eventually go up? Hah.

Fierce 5 looks good too...
...I'm lost thinking too hard.

Yep, it happens, just need to make a decision. All are fine in reality.

[QUOTE=jasonp360;1701666951]Suffering from analysis paralysis choosing the next program after I thought I decided.[/QUOTE]

This is why Fierce 5 is soo good, everything is written out for you.

This is also why 531 may not be the best option, way too many variations.

[QUOTE=tommy4life;1701684861]This is why Fierce 5 is soo good, everything is written out for you.

This is also why 531 may not be the best option, way too many variations.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. KISS method is such a reliable thing.