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nail3r
11-08-2006, 01:56 PM
Well according to Christian's Jesus walk around teaching people..... (you know the whole rap)

So where does that leave the rest of us? Was Jesus planning on a book being written? If not, then how come I don't get the treatment of Jesus teaching me the way? I would like to go to heaven too!

And why would Jesus trust people to pass the word down exactly like he taught it?? Didn't god not learn to NOT trust man as the first one he put on sinned?? Surely humans would use his words to wage war, gain money, power etc...?

nonAtlas
11-08-2006, 02:31 PM
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1

IraHays
11-08-2006, 02:33 PM
omĚnipĚoĚtent (m-np-tnt) KEY

ADJECTIVE:

Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful. See Usage Note at infinite.
NOUN:

One having unlimited power or authority: the bureaucratic omnipotents.
Omnipotent God. Used with the.

smokeater
11-08-2006, 02:37 PM
Well according to Christian's Jesus walk around teaching people..... (you know the whole rap)

So where does that leave the rest of us? Was Jesus planning on a book being written? If not, then how come I don't get the treatment of Jesus teaching me the way? I would like to go to heaven too!

And why would Jesus trust people to pass the word down exactly like he taught it?? Didn't god not learn to NOT trust man as the first one he put on sinned?? Surely humans would use his words to wage war, gain money, power etc...?

Everything that Jesus taught was specifically targeted toward the people he was speaking to. However because of the nature of his teachings, they can also be applied to modern day believers in Christ. He did not have a scribe or somebody write down what he was saying. I'm sure that because of his prophetic gifting he knew this would happen.

Man tends to mess up most of what he touches so I'm sure the bible isn't as perfect as Jesus would have had it if he'd have written it himself.

And honestly, man has the ability to manipulate anything if it serves his own good. The bible is written so that all generations can learn from it. As long as we can relate biblical day culture to our own culture we can understand it. If Jesus had talked about cel phones, mortgages, etc then hundreds of years of believers wouldn't have had a clue as to what he was talking about.

Fitqb
11-08-2006, 02:52 PM
It really doesn't make any sense. The only thing people have to go by is the bible... which was written by man. So really, even if you're a Christian, you are forced to have "faith" in men, more so than anyone else, because it is their words that you are living your life by. You have to have faith that it isn't corrupt, or added to. You also must have faith that it isn't fiction from the start... So it really isn't just faith in a god, you have to have faith in the sinful men that everyone is supposed to be ashamed of.

Why there can't be direct communication from an omnipotent being? No clue. Maybe to make things more interesting.

nonAtlas
11-08-2006, 02:57 PM
It really doesn't make any sense. The only thing people have to go by is the bible... which was written by man. So really, even if you're a Christian, you are forced to have "faith" in men, more so than anyone else, because it is their words that you are living your life by. You have to have faith that it isn't corrupt, or added to. You also must have faith that it isn't fiction from the start... So it really isn't just faith in a god, you have to have faith in the sinful men that everyone is supposed to be ashamed of.

Why there can't be direct communication from an omnipotent being? No clue. Maybe to make things more interesting.

No the Word of God is not "written by man":

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God
2 Timothy 3:16

The only faith you have to have is your trust that He will do as He has promised, and that has never been in doubt.

Fitqb
11-08-2006, 03:05 PM
No the Word of God is not "written by man":

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God
2 Timothy 3:16

The only faith you have to have is your trust that He will do as He has promised, and that has never been in doubt.
That's interesting, I thought the ones who wrote the words down were men... So men didn't write anything down?

nonAtlas
11-08-2006, 03:07 PM
That's interesting, I thought the ones who wrote the words down were men... So men didn't write anything down?

Do you know someone who has a secretary? And does he dictate letters or documents to that person? What about Stephen Hawking? He has to have someone help him by putting his words on paper. So does that hourly hireling get credit for Hawking's theories?

JAGERBOY
11-08-2006, 03:26 PM
Do you know someone who has a secretary? And does he dictate letters or documents to that person? What about Stephen Hawking? He has to have someone help him by putting his words on paper. So does that hourly hireling get credit for Hawking's theories?
So how are you sure that these men, his secretaries didnt just write down their own words?

nonAtlas
11-08-2006, 03:33 PM
So how are you sure that these men, his secretaries didnt just write down their own words?

Already answered:


No the Word of God is not "written by man":

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God
2 Timothy 3:16

The only faith you have to have is your trust that He will do as He has promised, and that has never been in doubt.

adilrockstar
11-08-2006, 03:39 PM
Well according to Christian's Jesus walk around teaching people..... (you know the whole rap)

So where does that leave the rest of us? Was Jesus planning on a book being written? If not, then how come I don't get the treatment of Jesus teaching me the way? I would like to go to heaven too!

And why would Jesus trust people to pass the word down exactly like he taught it?? Didn't god not learn to NOT trust man as the first one he put on sinned?? Surely humans would use his words to wage war, gain money, power etc...?

Next you are gonna ask.......why can't I hit the lotto I want to be rich too!

You are a grown man, make your own choices. The Bible is there so why don't you read it. There will be no excuse when you die.

And not all people use Gods word for their own benifit. Some use it to help people get to heaven, live a blessed life, and to glorify the Lord.

One Man Army
11-08-2006, 03:41 PM
Already answered:


you are going in a revolving door man...people say that the bible could have been written by man and not divinely inspired then you point to the bible as "proof" how do you know that scripture wasnt written by man(and for your answer please dont point to that scripture..that makes no sense)

btw scripture really isnt proof at all

watch this

And so God loved believers and killed dissenters
-Harame 4:51

thats from the ancient religion of Scrabba

how do you know the God Scrabba didnt get some "secretaries" to write that..or was it man?? see?












BTW I made up that whole Scrabba bit

timbo81
11-08-2006, 03:48 PM
They didn't have secretaries back then.

B_Master_Flash
11-08-2006, 04:01 PM
Well according to Christian's Jesus walk around teaching people..... (you know the whole rap)

So where does that leave the rest of us? Was Jesus planning on a book being written? If not, then how come I don't get the treatment of Jesus teaching me the way? I would like to go to heaven too!

And why would Jesus trust people to pass the word down exactly like he taught it?? Didn't god not learn to NOT trust man as the first one he put on sinned?? Surely humans would use his words to wage war, gain money, power etc...?

Well it seems to be implied that Jesus MUST have known that not only a bible would be written, but that it would also be vital for the propogation of the religion he knew he would begin. If Jesus knew this, it would seem logical that he would let his followers know to start taking notes. Instead, Jesus left with an ambiguous and misleading statment about how he would be back soon, which delayed any cannonical writings for at least 30 years.

Diesel66
11-08-2006, 04:03 PM
Well according to Christian's Jesus walk around teaching people..... (you know the whole rap)

So where does that leave the rest of us? Was Jesus planning on a book being written? If not, then how come I don't get the treatment of Jesus teaching me the way? I would like to go to heaven too!
The OT already existed so why wouldn't he assume this new teaching would be written down ?


And why would Jesus trust people to pass the word down exactly like he taught it?? Didn't god not learn to NOT trust man as the first one he put on sinned?? Surely humans would use his words to wage war, gain money, power etc...?
All that and nothing in the Bible can be used to wage war, gain money, power etc.... Looks like either the Bible was inspired or the men who wrote it were smarter then you give them credence.

nonAtlas
11-08-2006, 05:45 PM
you are going in a revolving door man...people say that the bible could have been written by man and not divinely inspired then you point to the bible as "proof" how do you know that scripture wasnt written by man(and for your answer please dont point to that scripture..that makes no sense)

btw scripture really isnt proof at all

watch this

And so God loved believers and killed dissenters
-Harame 4:51

thats from the ancient religion of Scrabba

how do you know the God Scrabba didnt get some "secretaries" to write that..or was it man?? see?

BTW I made up that whole Scrabba bit


And the bit you made up is completely out of character for God to say such a thing. That you know Him not at all yet you claim to contradict Him says that you have bitten off more than you can chew.

Oh...and in case you really did not get the analogy, the secretary is each man through whom Spirit of the Lord gave us the books of the Bible.

JAGERBOY
11-08-2006, 05:54 PM
Already answered:
LMAO!!!!!!!!!! You sir, have to be the undisputed king of circular reasoning. I ask you to prove that the words in the bible were inspired by god and not mere mortals. You use the book itself to prove the validity of itself. Truelly , truelly amazing. That has got to be the most blatent usage of circular whatever Ive ever seen on this forum. Stand up and take a bow sir...congrats.

HeavyShadow
11-08-2006, 05:55 PM
No, it's not like he's a god or anything, so he wouldn't know about anything after he died.

JAGERBOY
11-08-2006, 05:57 PM
No, it's not like he's a god or anything, so he wouldn't know about anything after he died.
So is Jesus god? Or is he the son of god?

Interpretations people!!! This is what Im talkin bout.

Fitqb
11-08-2006, 06:00 PM
Do you know someone who has a secretary? And does he dictate letters or documents to that person? What about Stephen Hawking? He has to have someone help him by putting his words on paper. So does that hourly hireling get credit for Hawking's theories?
You're using circular logic man... I'm asking for proof as to how you know the bible wasn't just the writings of ordinary men, and you're citing a passage within the book in question as proof of that. That still doesn't prove that man didn't falsify that statement as well. You can't just say, "because the bible says so", because the bible's legitimacy is in question.

nonAtlas
11-08-2006, 06:01 PM
LMAO!!!!!!!!!! You sir, have to be the undisputed king of circular reasoning. I ask you to prove that the words in the bible were inspired by god and not mere mortals. You use the book itself to prove the validity of itself. Truelly , truelly amazing. That has got to be the most blatent usage of circular whatever Ive ever seen on this forum. Stand up and take a bow sir...congrats.

Well, nowhere else do you have writings from ancient times that are loaded with scientific truth far ahead of contemporary understanding, historic truth that is proven time and time again, 30000 pieces of archaeologic proof that the guys who laid God's words down in ink were inspired by Him, and prophecies that are fulfilled to the letter in succeeding years. Take the rebirth of Israel in 1948 as a case of the latter.

So yes my reference to 2 Timothy is bulletproof. Got anything else?

JBDW
11-08-2006, 06:03 PM
Talk about obliviousness...

nonAtlas
11-08-2006, 06:03 PM
You're using circular logic man... I'm asking for proof as to how you know the bible wasn't just the writings of ordinary men, and you're citing a passage within the book in question as proof of that. That still doesn't prove that man didn't falsify that statement as well. You can't just say, "because the bible says so", because the bible's legitimacy is in question.

Not so fast, my friend. I made no claim that the passage I cited "proves" the Bible. I pointed out that it explains how the Bible is not "written by men" as someone claimed earlier.

JAGERBOY
11-08-2006, 06:05 PM
Well, nowhere else do you have writings from ancient times that are loaded with scientific truth far ahead of contemporary understanding, historic truth that is proven time and time again, 30000 pieces of archaeologic proof that the guys who laid God's words down in ink were inspired by Him, and prophecies that are fulfilled to the letter in succeeding years. Take the rebirth of Israel in 1948 as a case of the latter.

So yes my reference to 2 Timothy is bulletproof. Got anything else?
Again, how does this prove that it was the word of God?!?!? Because of some broad ass prophecies in countries that are irrelevant to this side of the world? You would think if god is Omni(insert whatever here) he would have known that societies would develop away from Israel and that nonsense over there and that he might want to prophesize on something relevant to us.

nonAtlas
11-08-2006, 06:06 PM
So is Jesus god? Or is he the son of god?

Interpretations people!!! This is what Im talkin bout.


Actually there is no need of interpretation. Earlier I quoted John 1 saying that Jesus is the omnipresent second Person of the Godhead. He created all things and is not a created being. He is God the Son. Some people call him "Son of God" because He is the BEGOTTEN Son. In other words He came to earth to be born of a young gal and live a perfect life. But He always was and always shall be.

nonAtlas
11-08-2006, 06:10 PM
Again, how does this prove that it was the word of God?!?!? Because of some broad ass prophecies in countries that are irrelevant to this side of the world? You would think if god is Omni(insert whatever here) he would have known that societies would develop away from Israel and that nonsense over there and that he might want to prophesize on something relevant to us.

The word is "prophesy", and yes the Word of God does say that Israel would be hated of all nations and driven to destruction, only to be reborn as he was in 1948. All that happened how and when it was prophesied, to the day. That you do not accept that irrefutable proof of God is your affair, but whether you accept is not the standard of truth. Messiah was sent to earth to die for our sin BECAUSE the human condition of sin is characterized by that hatred of His people the jews. So there is nothing missing in the Word of God, which is His love letter to you.

:-)

B_Master_Flash
11-08-2006, 06:13 PM
Well, nowhere else do you have writings from ancient times that are loaded with scientific truth far ahead of contemporary understanding, historic truth that is proven time and time again, 30000 pieces of archaeologic proof that the guys who laid God's words down in ink were inspired by Him, and prophecies that are fulfilled to the letter in succeeding years. Take the rebirth of Israel in 1948 as a case of the latter.


This is what happens when you start with the premise that the word of the bible is indesputible. "scientific" claims beyond it's time have not been impressive as far as I have noticed, and definitely aren't in the magnitude that you would expect from the omniscient being that created the universe. I don't know what archaeological proof you're talking about, but proving that a story written in the bible had a factual basis doesn't prove (or even imply) that it was written under the direction of a superintelligent, all-powerful ghost thingy. The prophecies in the bible are so vague they can be made to fit any number of things that have happened in the past or are even happening now.

JAGERBOY
11-08-2006, 06:14 PM
The word is "prophesy", and yes the Word of God does say that Israel would be hated of all nations and driven to destruction, only to be reborn as he was in 1948. All that happened how and when it was prophesied, to the day. That you do not accept that irrefutable proof of God is your affair, but whether you accept is not the standard of truth. Messiah was sent to earth to die for our sin BECAUSE the human condition of sin is characterized by that hatred of His people the jews. So there is nothing missing in the Word of God, which is His love letter to you.

:-)
Oh Jesus Christ....no, not you God, sorry.

And, prophesy?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=prophesy

nonAtlas
11-08-2006, 06:19 PM
Oh Jesus Christ....no, not you God, sorry.

And, prophesy?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=prophesy


I guess I missed your point. Care to clarify?

nonAtlas
11-08-2006, 06:20 PM
This is what happens when you start with the premise that the word of the bible is indesputible. "scientific" claims beyond it's time have not been impressive as far as I have noticed, and definitely aren't in the magnitude that you would expect from the omniscient being that created the universe. I don't know what archaeological proof you're talking about, but proving that a story written in the bible had a factual basis doesn't prove (or even imply) that it was written under the direction of a superintelligent, all-powerful ghost thingy. The prophecies in the bible are so vague they can be made to fit any number of things that have happened in the past or are even happening now.


You are wrong on each point, but thanks for TRYING to play with the smart kids. Next time be sure to notice a little farther.

JAGERBOY
11-08-2006, 06:21 PM
I guess I missed your point. Care to clarify?
Well, you tried to "catch me" on my spelling mistake , and then you ended up spelling prophecy wrong, ace. Just click the google link again, you'll get it.

nonAtlas
11-08-2006, 06:23 PM
Well, you tried to "catch me" on my spelling mistake , and then you ended up spelling prophecy wrong, ace. Just click the google link again, you'll get it.


Wrong-O, buddy. Prophecy (PROFF-es-see) is the noun. Prophesy (PROFF-es-sye) is the verb. "Prophesize" is not a word, and your link does not help your little argument. I say prophecy when I mean prophecy and I say prophesy when I mean prophesy.

B_Master_Flash
11-08-2006, 06:23 PM
You are wrong on each point, but thanks for TRYING to play with the smart kids. Next time be sure to notice a little farther.

not sure what "notice a little farther" is supposed to mean, but lol at you calling yourself a "smart kid"

nonAtlas
11-08-2006, 06:25 PM
not sure what "notice a little farther" is supposed to mean, but lol at you calling yourself a "smart kid"

That means a lot coming from someone who does not recognize his/her own words. Try your message 27.

B_Master_Flash
11-08-2006, 06:33 PM
That means a lot coming from someone who does not recognize his/her own words. Try your message 27.

"notice a little farther" isn't a term I used, or would ever use. Like I said, starting with the preconcieved notion that the bible is the indisputible word of god makes it impossible to read objectively. Look up the placebo effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo_effect).

nonAtlas
11-08-2006, 06:41 PM
"notice a little farther" isn't a term I used, or would ever use. Like I said, starting with the preconcieved notion that the bible is the indisputible word of god makes it impossible to read objectively.


Okay. I shall spoon-feed you:


as far as I have noticed

Oh...and I neither need nor assert any "preconceived notion". The fact of the matter is the Word of God has proven itself, regardless whether the non-thinkers (no offense) want to acknowledge this.

B_Master_Flash
11-08-2006, 06:46 PM
Okay. I shall spoon-feed you:

I didn't see the term "notice a little further" anywhere. Amazing.

I know you're busy nitpicking which words I used and declaring that I'm unintelligent for my opinions, but if you have time, could you maybe address any of the points I've made? Or maybe just make a post that has to do with the topic of the thread?

Thanks.

JAGERBOY
11-08-2006, 07:19 PM
Wrong-O, buddy. Prophecy (PROFF-es-see) is the noun. Prophesy (PROFF-es-sye) is the verb. "Prophesize" is not a word, and your link does not help your little argument. I say prophecy when I mean prophecy and I say prophesy when I mean prophesy.
Whoa buddy, guess ya got me there champ. I lose. But wait, I win, because usually when people start nit picking at grammatical and spelling errors it means they know they are wrong. Kind of like what you are doing with B_Master_Flash.

nonAtlas
11-08-2006, 07:31 PM
Whoa buddy, guess ya got me there champ. I lose. But wait, I win, because usually when people start nit picking at grammatical and spelling errors it means they know they are wrong. Kind of like what you are doing with B_Master_Flash.


Not at all, because as a child of the Lord I love all humans just as He expects. Thus it is proper to help them when they stumble.

nonAtlas
11-08-2006, 07:34 PM
I didn't see the term "notice a little further" anywhere. Amazing.


I never said you did say "notice a little farther". What I indicated is that you stated something about "noticing that far". Give it a rest, buddy. You looked like a dope and you got caught in the barbed wire of a person who knows the language. No sweat, but the more you stir that pile...the more it stinks.

JAGERBOY
11-08-2006, 07:36 PM
Not at all, because as a child of the Lord I love all humans just as He expects. Thus it is proper to help them when they stumble.
Well I love you too. Will you be my best friend?

nonAtlas
11-08-2006, 07:45 PM
Well I love you too. Will you be my best friend?

Not today. I have to kick some cats and stomp some roaches.

JAGERBOY
11-08-2006, 07:49 PM
Not today. I have to rape some guys and sodomize some goats.
K...

Vaper
11-08-2006, 07:56 PM
once again all this trivial stuff, on judgment day im preety sure if there was a few words wrong in the bible god will still have salvation upon you aslong as you did you BEST! to find the truth in his teachings. Also i will just note there is a difference between researching hes teachings and manipulating them to your liking

B_Master_Flash
11-08-2006, 07:58 PM
I never said you did say "notice a little farther". What I indicated is that you stated something about "noticing that far". Give it a rest, buddy. You looked like a dope and you got caught in the barbed wire of a person who knows the language. No sweat, but the more you stir that pile...the more it stinks.

I've noticed your reps have diminshed durring the course of this thread. That amuses me.

I like how you tell me to give it a rest and then say that I look like a dope right after I asked if you could bring your posts back on topic. You must have been champion of the debate team.

I'll be back if this thead ever gets back on topic.

nonAtlas
11-08-2006, 08:02 PM
I've noticed your reps have diminshed durring the course of this thread. That amuses me.

I like how you tell me to give it a rest and then say that I look like a dope right after I asked if you could bring your posts back on topic. You must have been champion of the debate team.

I'll be back if this thead ever gets back on topic.


No idea what you think any of your mumbling above has to do with the topic, but I understand that you know you are beaten. Fair enough.

farmerlee
11-09-2006, 12:38 AM
It really doesn't make any sense. The only thing people have to go by is the bible... which was written by man. So really, even if you're a Christian, you are forced to have "faith" in men, more so than anyone else, because it is their words that you are living your life by. You have to have faith that it isn't corrupt, or added to. You also must have faith that it isn't fiction from the start... So it really isn't just faith in a god, you have to have faith in the sinful men that everyone is supposed to be ashamed of.

Why there can't be direct communication from an omnipotent being? No clue. Maybe to make things more interesting.
We all have faith in men. If you check carefully you will find that 90% of the things you know are based on human testimony. Now having accepted the testimony of men on other matters won't you accept the testimony of christians when they affirm that they have verified the things written in gods word?

Ruhanv
11-09-2006, 03:11 AM
That's a great question that I have never thought about...

IF Jesus had any divine connection via being a prophet or God's son, then I cannot imagine that he would have realised that his actions and words would have inspired a document which would have been considered sacred centuries later. If he did know, then he was very careless with his message.

I also cannot believe that he would have believed that it was intended to be meaningful to people after the original manuscripts had been lost. There are simply too many changes to the text, too many lost documents, too many problems within the structure of the text etc.

The New Testament was a document that was forced together centuries after the documents were written. There was no divine premeditation nor planning.

Sabatoge
11-09-2006, 07:38 AM
Well according to Christian's Jesus walk around teaching people..... (you know the whole rap)

So where does that leave the rest of us? Was Jesus planning on a book being written? If not, then how come I don't get the treatment of Jesus teaching me the way? I would like to go to heaven too!

And why would Jesus trust people to pass the word down exactly like he taught it?? Didn't god not learn to NOT trust man as the first one he put on sinned?? Surely humans would use his words to wage war, gain money, power etc...?


The short answer is yes.

Christ very much intended for his words to be written down.

Begining from Moses:
Exodus 24:4
And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

Deuteronomy 17:18And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites:
19And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them: (This verse refers to Israel's king chosen by God)

John 1:45
Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

And ending with John
Revelation 21:5
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

There are many times in the OT where all Israel gathered to hear the word of the Lord and they couldn't hear it if it was not written down and read.

The phrase "as it is written" is plentiful throughout the OT and NT. God's word was very much ment to be written down and studied daily.

And as far as the "Didn't god not learn to NOT trust man" Is illogical because God wouldn't be God if he had to "learn"

God trusted people to write his words because as Peter said it best
2 Peter 1:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

Private interpretation means that man just "made up" the words of God. Every word that was written was physically written by man but written by God or "moved by the Holy Ghost"

"Surely humans would use his words to wage war, gain money, power etc..?"

Of-course, but that doesn't mean the source is corrupt.

Ruhanv
11-09-2006, 07:41 AM
The short answer is yes.

Christ very much intended for his words to be written down.

Begining from Moses:
Exodus 24:4
And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

Deuteronomy 17:18And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites:
19And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them: (This verse refers to Israel's king chosen by God)

John 1:45
Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

And ending with John
Revelation 21:5
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

There are many times in the OT where all Israel gathered to hear the word of the Lord and they couldn't hear it if it was not written down and read.

The phrase "as it is written" is plentiful throughout the OT and NT. God's word was very much ment to be written down and studied daily.

And as far as the "Didn't god not learn to NOT trust man" Is illogical because God wouldn't be God if he had to "learn"

God trusted people to write his words because as Peter said it best
2 Peter 1:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

Private interpretation means that man just "made up" the words of God. Every word that was written was physically written by man but written by God or "moved by the Holy Ghost"

"Surely humans would use his words to wage war, gain money, power etc..?"

Of-course, but that doesn't mean the source is corrupt.

Sorry mate. I know you did a lot of work on this but none of this shows any intention by Jesus that he wanted his words to be recorded. If you do, then you don't go hang around a bunch illiterate fishermen. ;)

Sabatoge
11-09-2006, 08:36 AM
Sorry mate. I know you did a lot of work on this but none of this shows any intention by Jesus that he wanted his words to be recorded. If you do, then you don't go hang around a bunch illiterate fishermen. ;)

No intentions? So when Christ said this:

Revelation 21:5
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Christ told John to write. Why? Why write? What is the purpose of recording?

Its to have a record ;)

Guardian
11-09-2006, 08:41 AM
Well according to Christian's Jesus walk around teaching people..... (you know the whole rap)

So where does that leave the rest of us? Was Jesus planning on a book being written? If not, then how come I don't get the treatment of Jesus teaching me the way? I would like to go to heaven too!

And why would Jesus trust people to pass the word down exactly like he taught it?? Didn't god not learn to NOT trust man as the first one he put on sinned?? Surely humans would use his words to wage war, gain money, power etc...?


I believe he did know. There is a passage somewhere (im not very religous) that stated Jesus would say things along the line of "those who seek will find the words of jesus." Also Jesus seemed to know destiny and I assume part of destiny would include the bible formation.

Ruhanv
11-09-2006, 08:46 AM
No intentions? So when Christ said this:

Revelation 21:5
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Christ told John to write. Why? Why write? What is the purpose of recording?

Its to have a record ;)

Christ didn't say that. That's from Revelation which was written by a different John (not the disciple) around the turn of the 1st century at the earliest. In fact most Church fathers dismissed this as a fabrication until the late 4th century when some started accepting Revelation just because it had become traditionally used by some congregations.

It's also a Christian version of a typical 1st century AD Jewish apocryphal work.

nonAtlas
11-09-2006, 12:18 PM
Christ didn't say that. That's from Revelation which was written by a different John (not the disciple) around the turn of the 1 century at the earliest. In fact most Church fathers dismissed this as a fabrication until the late 4 century when some started accepting Revelation just because it had become traditionally used by some congregations.

It's also a Christian version of a typical 1 century AD Jewish apocryphal work.


You are wrong. It is indeed Apostle John who recorded the Lord's words, and it happened no later than 70 AD. It passes the test of being scripture, and it has not been "dismissed" by anyone of authority.

Sabatoge
11-09-2006, 12:22 PM
Christ didn't say that. That's from Revelation which was written by a different John (not the disciple) around the turn of the 1st century at the earliest. In fact most Church fathers dismissed this as a fabrication until the late 4th century when some started accepting Revelation just because it had become traditionally used by some congregations.

It's also a Christian version of a typical 1st century AD Jewish apocryphal work.


Christ is the one who sits on the throne, therefore Christ indeed said that.

And it was written by the Apostle John. It was accepted by the churches in the west in early 2nd century. The eastern churches were more more aprehensive about it because it contains prophecy that is very, very hard to understand.

It was eventually accepted by eastern churches in around the 4th century as you said.

But style and language of Revelation is very similiar to John's other Gospels.


"It's also a Christian version of a typical 1st century AD Jewish apocryphal work."

Source?