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Eye2_Man
01-30-2003, 08:27 AM
This is probably a question that a lot of people have had. And it's probably been answered before. Probably the reason for so many diet plans. I can't really go on an exotic diet for family reasons and only need general advice.

It came to me last night after reading all the replies to the previous post about protein consumption and the amount of food that must be eaten. To lose weight, don't you need to eat fewer calories than burn off? But then, your muscles are deprived of the nutrients to grow, right?

So, will a clean diet and maxxing out cardio and ab exercises work to trim the gut while still taking in the requirements to pack on Herculean mass?

A simple plan was formulated last night. 3 whey protein shakes a day. That adds about 90g of protein (but about 750 calories) to the normal meal consumption. And then with every regular meal the family eats, wife will prepare a separate tofu-tuna plate to add additional protein while minimizing the carbohydrate intake. And, of course, watching diet all day to avoid empty calories (hate chips and soda pops anyway, giving up beer and pizza is going to be the hardest).

BTW, a little research was done last night to try to figure out more tricep (favortie body area) exercises. I found these 4 to be especially interesting and possibly a key to success (not for tricep though) :

Bench Dips. These work a large number of muscle groups. Big bang for the effort.

Upright Rows. One of the few exercises for the sides of your shoulders.

Reverse Curls. One of few forearm routines.

Shoulder Shrug. Another big bang for the buck. And one of the few exercises that will give you a truely gorilla-like upper body.

little lats
01-30-2003, 10:21 AM
Your right there is no answer, because we are all so different. You can add muscle and lose fat. But my diet, body chemistry are different than yours, that's what is nice about the board, you will get millions of ideas.

I guess for me I initially gained muscle, but never lost the gut. And it is taking a cutting cycle to get it. You can develop muscle and lose your gut with the right combinations like you posted. As far as mass, well then I would say you will probably gain fat. I am to the point that I want to get my BF down so I feel and look good and then worry about how big. I think everyone worries about how big to much and not how good you look and feel..

Eye2_Man
01-30-2003, 11:05 AM
So are you saying something like a "cycle" is a good strategy? Get big, serious diet (even though some muscle is lost), get big again, etc. ?

That Keto diet seems geared to preserving muscle while losing fat. But eatting all that fat appears to be really nasty. Maybe it tastes good. But it slows you down.

Maybe experimentation is the right thing. But definitely work hard on the stair-master, situps, and crunches while paying attention to carb intake.

little lats
01-30-2003, 11:18 AM
None of us have the complete science. I am sick of the yo-yo. I know some who are ripped that increase their calories by 500 a day and can gain size and still look good. Me I gain fat...

Keto is good (until my blood test comes back) You really are only sluggish initially. I don't notice any energy differences now.

TwoWalks
01-30-2003, 11:29 AM
Little Lats is right - there is no right answer.

I have a strange philosopy I guess and not one that I often expound in mixed company :) Averages and substitution.

You must define some of those terms within your own mind and goals. Gaining Mass, are you talking about actual size or the appearance of size? Losing the gut, are you looking at having a 30" waist or are you looking at the gut not being 6" bigger than the hips? I do not mean this to be funny, but how we view our goals and how we define for our own selves what those goals truly are determines the approach to the answer.

For me, the answer is to put on Muscle Mass size and to lose Body Fat% while getting the waist down.

Substitution is changing how we view food and when given a choice of foods picking the better choice. Example - a coke, having water instead - calorie drop 150 calories. Choosing an english muffin instead of having a bagel - calorie saving 80 calories. Now if we cut out 25 - 500 calories of bad calories each day and at the same time increase protien, infact you can add muscle mass while reducing body fat so the results will be the waist getting smaller. I vary from this thinking only when my brain needs to see faster weight loss or if I lose interest in the fat loss because gaining muscle mass over shadows the fat loss.

Dave Draper said "Bodybuilding is a thinking persons sport" and as time goes on, I realize more and more the accuracy of this. A goal must be looked at in detail, the nutrition and the workout must be looked at in detail to fullfill the goal and then the strategy must be devised to accomplish that goal.

I have gained 12#'s of muscle mass and lost 9" of waist at the same time also dropping 15% body fat. It can be done but takes more flexability and effort to accomplish. It is easier to gain and cut so it is the popular way. For me it would not work because of my mental attitude toward getting fat again. I would rather look good 12 months a year, instead of looking fat 9 months and looking great 3 months. I design my goals to fit my mental well being, but do not believe it is best for every one else or that it is the only way. Just my way for me.:)

Phatman1179
01-30-2003, 12:09 PM
Hey Eye2

Check out this link on periodzation.


http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/keats2.htm

GLAlexander
01-30-2003, 01:54 PM
There have been very many good comments so far. I would like to add after extensive reading it appears glutamine is an important supplement to consider.

I do not understand all of the science around this but it seems to be a universally applauded supplement to use while trying to conserve LBM.

I also find that the more of his stuff I read I tend to have a similar approach to what "Two Walks" proposes. I have had very good success doing what I have been doing.

I am sure it is debateable on whether I am doing this efficiently or optimally, but I am doing something I think I can live with longer term.

MiloMan
01-30-2003, 04:16 PM
I see it this way:

Most people took years and years to get fat, and they weren't impatient about it; they calmly went about slowly digging a grave with their knife, fork, and spoon. They were content to add fat a gram at a time, and weren't in any hurry.

(At this point they have an epiphany of sorts, akin to "Eureka! I must lose fat and get in shape!". This is a sensible change of attitude, better late than never.)

When they set out to lose that fat they systematically built, as well as add muscle, they curiously show none of the same patience; they want the world and they want it now.

"Summer - my reunion - my 30th/40th/50th/60th/70th birthday - some other milestone date/event is right around the corner; I must get in soloflex-fitness-model shape by yesterday!"

1. Start lifting weights.
2. Start doing cardio work.
3. Go on a slightly calorie-negative diet.
4. Lose the fat at a rate of only 1 or 2 lbs per week (no faster than that).
5. When the fat is gone, cut down (but don't totally eliminate) cardio work and change your diet to give a caloric surplus, allowing you to add muscle.
6. You will gain some fat bulking; , but don't sweat it too much. If it gets to be too much fat, reapply steps 3-5 until the fat is gone.
7. Be patient.

Charger
01-30-2003, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by Eye2_Man
To lose weight, don't you need to eat fewer calories than burn off? But then, your muscles are deprived of the nutrients to grow, right?

So, will a clean diet and maxxing out cardio and ab exercises work to trim the gut while still taking in the requirements to pack on Herculean mass?



First question is right and wrong. Yes you simply need to take in less cals. As for depriving muslces, this is where the protein comes in, protein is the building blocks for muscle.

Second question, yes a clean diet and cardio will help trim fat, ab excercises will only build ab muslces, not trim. You can't spot reduce, you have to drop total bodyfat %. The key is muscle burns more cals, so the more muscle you pack on, the more fat burned.

Steelhand
01-30-2003, 08:17 PM
Your trying to do the same thing that I'm trying to do. Probably a lot of us out there. I'm trying to have a 3500 calories deficit per week, and eat 200 grams of protein per day (I weigh 180#). I am mixing in designer whey, 75 grams per day approx, and creatine. I am not really concerned about the number on the scale, just how my clothes look and fit. And how I feel, both physically and about myself.

I've really been watching diet for two weeks now, but it has made a difference. I'm not really interested in a keto lifestyle, or the constant bulking/cutting yoyo. I want to get to a sustainable BF%, and then eat the proper nutrition to gradually build muscle. I'm sure others have tried, but what the heck, why not try something simple, if stupid!

Eye2_Man
01-30-2003, 08:49 PM
Thanks for all the advice guys. A little more is learned each day.

Good luck Steelhand. We are almost identical in goals, disinterest in keto, and supplements.