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wooders55
10-19-2006, 03:45 AM
Right - decided to do go on a mission to see if i can get rid of , or a least reduce the natural gyno i've had since my teens (i'm 31 now). If the below doesn't fail i'm gonna stump up the cash to go under the knife - but wan't to exhaust all possibilites before I take this expensive option.

Heres the plan - i'm gonna do a 3 month course of Nolva starting at 20mg ED - maybe up to 40mg for three months after doing some research.

If this fails to work i'm gonna try a simailar course but with Ralxifane probaly 60mg ED.

If i get nothing from this i'm getting the credit card out and am going for surgery - this sh*ts been p*ssing me off for too long now.

BTW the gyno has been confirmesd by my GP - but he's keeps telling me it's fine and not to worry. I asked for surgery but the waiting list is way too long, and too much of a hassle and pain in the arse, so i'm going it alone for now. I've used Nolva with good results in the past on slight p=hormone induced gyno. So want to see if a long course on a low ish does will do anything. i've heard others have good results. I'm not expecting a compete resolution - even a partial reduction would be good

I'll try and keep this updated for those who have a similar problem.

So far i'm on day 2 of 20mg Nolva-nothing to report so far.

RenegadeRows
10-19-2006, 04:28 AM
Ralox @ 3 mons is your best bet from the research i've done.

pu12en12g
10-19-2006, 10:49 PM
Welcome to BB.COM..... what's your bodyfat % ?

creativedesignz
10-19-2006, 11:01 PM
start off with ralox first...it got rid of mine for the most part after getting delayed gyno from an SD cycle. Good luck

nickye3
10-19-2006, 11:06 PM
if you really want to hit it hard i would go with letrozole or aromasin
along with nolva

wooders55
10-20-2006, 04:35 AM
Cheers

Yeah I hear Letro is supposed to work really well - but it's really hard to find, also hear it kills your libido dead. I will give it a go though if i can source some. I'm prepared to try anything to get rid of the puppies.

Regarding body fat - this really doesn't seem to affect the gyno that much - when i cut, it's even becomes even more noticable - which is a pain.

I'm really hoping that using it over a long period of time - will be beneficial as this seems to be how others have got best results, as opposed to the traditional pct route of higher dosage that tapers down over a relativley short period of time.

DRP7
10-20-2006, 04:48 AM
if you really want to hit it hard i would go with letrozole or aromasin
along with nolva

I would not recommend letrozole as a "first-hit" for gyno! The side effects are not worth it. If verything else doesn't work, then, maybe - but never ever as a first line therapy.

Pu12 is absolutely right: most often fat tissue at the chest is misinterpreted as gyno, so I would really check if it is real breast tissue or just fat. The general practitioner is most likely not able to discrimnate those, so you should visit an endocrinologist.
If you have cut down your bf to under 8-10%, you will see if it is real gyno or just fat.

If it IS gyno, raloxifene has been shown to be superior compared to tamoxifen. The second thing I would advise is to be patient: If the gyno have persisted for many years (or even decades) it will take some time to improve upon treatment, so I would wait at least 6 months before I go to the surgeon.

Also, try to omit / minimize the intake of potentially estrogenic compounds such as sesamin, flax or soy.

Best regards

David

wooders55
10-20-2006, 09:30 AM
What about Nolva and Ralox combined - or would this be overkill?

FlyingV
10-20-2006, 09:47 AM
I wasn't aware that there's any such thing as 'natural gyno' that exists and persists in the absence of any underlying pathology or endocrine imbalance, is there? Is there a medical term for it?

nickye3
10-20-2006, 10:00 AM
I wasn't aware that there's any such thing as 'natural gyno' that exists and persists in the absence of any underlying pathology or endocrine imbalance, is there? Is there a medical term for it?

there are a bunch of cases of natural gyno, I had it when i was in high school - mostly fatty tissue deposits.

"The condition is relatively common in adolescent boys, and 90% of the time symptoms disappear in a matter of months, or, as adolescence wanes, a few years later. But the remaining 10% are burdened with a social handicap that causes a deep and complex shame, and puts one's relationship with one's body at risk.

There are several potential causes of gyno:

puberty
steroid abuse (bitch tits)
obesity
marijuana use (this is in question)
tumors
genetic disorders
chronic liver disease
side effects of many medications
castration
Klinefelter Syndrome
Gilbert's Syndrome
aging

In cases of obesity, weight loss can alter the gynecomastic condition, but for many it will not eliminate it. For all other causes, surgery is the only known physical remedy. Once the physical encumbrance is lifted, psychological scars still need to be addressed. One must come to terms with one's body, accept it, and heal the wounds from the past."

Intellectural
10-20-2006, 10:22 AM
I've had it since teens on my left side, definite lump, but I seem to store any bodyfat in my chest as well, which makes it worse- even at single digits I will have some fat around nipples- I feel your pain man, I'm really sick of dealing with it too, and may look into surgery. I haven't used ralox, but I use Nolva and aromasin quite regularly to deal with it. I have actually seen some decent results with Nolva and T3 combined- not sure of the science there, but it seems to be helping..

FlyingV
10-20-2006, 10:31 AM
Fatty tissue deposits are pseudogyno, no? I guess what was most surprising was that wooder has had it since his teens and is now 31. Leads me to wonder what kinds of tests he's been through, what they have ruled in/ruled out as an underlying cause. If it's just fatty deposits, are the antiestrogens still indicated? What does his hormone panel look like? Also, what kind of GP can look a 31 year old in the eye and say that gyno is fine and not to worry about it? Whatever else happens, I hope for a speedy resolution for ya, wooder.

Jules Verne
10-20-2006, 10:33 AM
What about Nolva and Ralox combined - or would this be overkill?

I think it would be OK - I'm doing that because I could get higher doses of Ralox (I did 200mg/day for 3 weeks, then tapered to 50mg/day for 1 month).

So far no reduction in gyno (I've had it since puberty, so over 20 years).

kleen
10-20-2006, 10:35 AM
does anyone know a good base doasge for ralox? i've seen some run it at 120mgs then drop to 60mgs but i havent seen a good dosage outline yet. thanks for the help.

Jules Verne
10-20-2006, 10:38 AM
I wasn't aware that there's any such thing as 'natural gyno' that exists and persists in the absence of any underlying pathology or endocrine imbalance, is there? Is there a medical term for it?

Absolutely! It's just gyno. Mine came on at puberty and never reduced. I didn't even know about it until a few years ago though, otherwise I'd probably have had surgery.

Bood tests show I have no estrogen issues or anything like that. This is why I cringe when people suggest anti-E along with SERMS. Just because you have gyno does not mean you have high E and taking an anti-E could just make things worse. Some people are just born with more receptors or increased sensitivity.

Of course if you develop gyno while on AAS, and anti-E is probably a good/reasonable thing to take.

Nailbomb9
10-20-2006, 10:54 AM
Waiting list is too long??? HOLY SHNIKES!!!

snatohessnaths
10-20-2006, 01:45 PM
Right - decided to do go on a mission to see if i can get rid of , or a least reduce the natural gyno i've had since my teens (i'm 31 now). If the below doesn't fail i'm gonna stump up the cash to go under the knife - but wan't to exhaust all possibilites before I take this expensive option.

Heres the plan - i'm gonna do a 3 month course of Nolva starting at 20mg ED - maybe up to 40mg for three months after doing some research.

If this fails to work i'm gonna try a simailar course but with Ralxifane probaly 60mg ED.

If i get nothing from this i'm getting the credit card out and am going for surgery - this sh*ts been p*ssing me off for too long now.

BTW the gyno has been confirmesd by my GP - but he's keeps telling me it's fine and not to worry. I asked for surgery but the waiting list is way too long, and too much of a hassle and pain in the arse, so i'm going it alone for now. I've used Nolva with good results in the past on slight p=hormone induced gyno. So want to see if a long course on a low ish does will do anything. i've heard others have good results. I'm not expecting a compete resolution - even a partial reduction would be good

I'll try and keep this updated for those who have a similar problem.

So far i'm on day 2 of 20mg Nolva-nothing to report so far.
thanks for posting the log/results. I have gyno too, drug induced. BTW there's lots of info on this board, use the search function to find it. Also see the sticky in the steroids section.

I'd also say don't "go it alone"! Get an appt. with an endocrinologist if you can. It's worth that extra effort with the doctors to get some guidance. Some doctors that know what they are doing will prescribe tamoxifen, if you can find one.

I don't know if you have this info, but http://www.endotext.org/male/male14/male14.htm
is good too.

snatohessnaths
10-20-2006, 01:49 PM
does anyone know a good base doasge for ralox? i've seen some run it at 120mgs then drop to 60mgs but i havent seen a good dosage outline yet. thanks for the help.
60 mg is what most studies are done with, I don't know if increasing it will make much difference or not. Get an account for free at www.pubmed.com and search for the studies.

snatohessnaths
10-20-2006, 01:53 PM
I would not recommend letrozole as a "first-hit" for gyno! The side effects are not worth it. If verything else doesn't work, then, maybe - but never ever as a first line therapy.

Pu12 is absolutely right: most often fat tissue at the chest is misinterpreted as gyno, so I would really check if it is real breast tissue or just fat. The general practitioner is most likely not able to discrimnate those, so you should visit an endocrinologist.
If you have cut down your bf to under 8-10%, you will see if it is real gyno or just fat.

If it IS gyno, raloxifene has been shown to be superior compared to tamoxifen. The second thing I would advise is to be patient: If the gyno have persisted for many years (or even decades) it will take some time to improve upon treatment, so I would wait at least 6 months before I go to the surgeon.

Also, try to omit / minimize the intake of potentially estrogenic compounds such as sesamin, flax or soy.

Best regards

David

Are you really a doctor? That'd be good.
I've read a bit about letrozole
http://www.answers.com/topic/letrozole-femara
It doesn't seem like site effects are that much of a problem, though?
What side effects are you reffering to?
Also, gyno can be just fat for some people. If you are low BF but still have more than normal deposits there, it's considered gyno, though maybe very mild, it's the same idea.

nickye3
10-20-2006, 02:53 PM
[QUOTE=snatohessnaths]
What side effects are you reffering to?
QUOTE]

I know you get shut down pretty bad, but you can take a small daily dose. Usually about 1.25mg ED

ronjon
10-20-2006, 03:23 PM
Zinc is supposed to help reduce gyno symptoms.

DRP7
10-21-2006, 11:14 AM
Are you really a doctor? That'd be good.
I've read a bit about letrozole
http://www.answers.com/topic/letrozole-femara
It doesn't seem like site effects are that much of a problem, though?
What side effects are you reffering to?
Also, gyno can be just fat for some people. If you are low BF but still have more than normal deposits there, it's considered gyno, though maybe very mild, it's the same idea.


Letrozole can eliminate estradiol production almost completely. It is extremely effectzive in doing this. Estradiol (the main estrogen) does drive the growth of breast tissue but it has also hundreds of other actions in the body that are beneficial even to men! lipid status, bone mineralisation, dozens of effects in the brain etc. etc. etc. The SERMS (like nolva or ralox) do block estradiol receptors only in some tissues in the body (breast) but not in others (liver, bones etc), so that's why I would always go for a SERM instead of an AI. I would try the AI (aromatase inhibitor) only if nothing other helped, and then only for a very limited time.

wooders55
10-23-2006, 03:01 AM
I had a load of tests done a while back - everything came back normal, pretty mcuh textbook spot on. My doc told me that it's because of a surge of testosterone when your young which causes it - and like i said pretty much told me not to worry about it.

I definaltley have the lumps, so it's not fat - and like i said before I'ev had some success reducing these before with Nolva.

Regarding waiting lists for an op -sorry to confuse, but i'm based in the UK so was reffering to getting it done for free on the health service here. but much like health insurance companies in the States,he they see it as cosmetic - so won't cover you. If i paid myself i wouldn't have to wait long - but it's very expensive.

wooders55
10-26-2006, 04:26 AM
Ok - First week on 20mg of Nolva twice daily:

Well to be honest i'm quite surprised after just a week , my chest seems to have tightened up a bit, not sure if it's in my head or not - but i'm sure things look different.

Lump wise on the right side - the lumps seem to have got softer and appear to be breaking apart inside.

I'm impressed so far - looking forward to seeing how things progress.

DRP7
10-26-2006, 04:49 AM
Ok - First week on 20mg of Nolva twice daily:

Well to be honest i'm quite surprised after just a week , my chest seems to have tightened up a bit, not sure if it's in my head or not - but i'm sure things look different.

Lump wise on the right side - the lumps seem to have got softer and appear to be breaking apart inside.

I'm impressed so far - looking forward to seeing how things progress.

:-) nice! best of luck!


david

manofmany
10-26-2006, 08:39 AM
Ok - First week on 20mg of Nolva twice daily:

Well to be honest i'm quite surprised after just a week , my chest seems to have tightened up a bit, not sure if it's in my head or not - but i'm sure things look different.

Lump wise on the right side - the lumps seem to have got softer and appear to be breaking apart inside.

I'm impressed so far - looking forward to seeing how things progress.

Hope you will keep us updated. I'm looking forward to the outcome of this.

wooders55
11-01-2006, 05:35 AM
Ok Weak two - still 20 mg twice daily, and things are defintaley improving, although slowly. I think i'm gonna take some photo's to track the changes a bit better.

The lump on the right is continuing to get softer and break apart I can feel lumps moving about which is weird. Not so much on the left hand side -but visually i'm sure my pecs are showing alot more - and my whole chest looks kind of tighter and my nipples seem to go hard a lot more and easier. The gyno is alot less noticeable in a tight shirt now - which is cool.

I'm happy so far - didn't expect changes this soon. Gonna continue for another two weeks and then review. If things are going well i'll do another month and maybe drop the dosage - if not may swap to Ralox.

For information the nolva i'm using is the real deal, in pill form - not a research chemical.

No noticeable sides apart from i've noticed i may be a bit more grumpier, and paerhaps get a bit more pissed off than usual - could be in my head though.

So far Nolva seems to be working well, although slowly, on my on pre-pubescent gyno, so much for the 'Nolva will do nothing for preexsing gyno threads'.

Marine_ssgt
11-07-2006, 09:58 PM
so it sounds like so far the nolva is working for your gyno? i have had lumps for about a year, and i have some nolva but not sure how much to take, for how long, or what sides to expect? any advice would be appreciated. so what was the outcome?

wooders55
11-08-2006, 11:40 AM
OK into my third week and i'm going to stop as my mood is getting worse, especially this last week. Low energy, lack of motivation, moody etc.. After talking to others i'm sure it's the nolva.

Anyway i' gonna taper down and have a break - see if mood improves. might try Ralox but i'm not sure.

As for the gyno i'd say about a 40% improvemnt in about 3 weeks, so not too bad. I would keep going but, the pissy mood is no fun at all.

bigtee5469
11-09-2006, 04:19 PM
nice log. I been using nolva at 40mg and .5 mg of letro and I havent seen much of a difference yet. I have no lumps but dyam my nips are sore. If this doesnt work its time for raloxifene.

I finished a whole bottle of letro and tapered up to 2.5 and that **** did nothing... Well GOOD LUCK!

supersaiyanGoku
11-09-2006, 05:30 PM
nolva can cause cancer

wooders55
11-10-2006, 04:10 AM
great thanks - really helpful post ....

bigtee5469
11-10-2006, 01:46 PM
cancer???????REALLY?

JBoy45
11-14-2006, 01:48 PM
Nolvadex's true name is Tamoxifen. It is a drug used for breast cancer in women. It does not cause cancer at all and has very little side effects. In reality, it actually stops uncrontrollable cell growth(Cancer) from forming. This information comes from seven years spent sitting in doctor's offices with the mother.

rallen
11-15-2006, 06:01 PM
I'm not sure if I have mild gyno or not. Maybe just some chest fat. Would anyone post a picture of mild gyno? I have seen the pictures of serious gyno. I don't have that. Just a little concerned.