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Minotaur
01-29-2003, 10:20 AM
A few weeks a go I posted a thread about my calories and not losing weight... http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=86236

An excerpt from it...


Originally posted by Minotaur
...But I find myself averaging at least 2000 calories, but more likely it's 2300-2400. The 1800-1900 recommended for my weight loss goal and activity level just doesn't cut it. I find myself almost ravenous in the evening. Even at these figures and my activity level, am I actually eating too little? I can get on board with eating more. :D


OK, the upshot... Over the past couple of weeks these are my ranges (gotta love fitday.com :))...

Calories 2450-3000
Total Fat g 68-83
Total Carbohydrate g 214-263
Protein g 245-300

I'm definitely taking in more calories, and as opposed to what I said in my first post, I'm not ravenous in the evenings anymore. Yay! :D

Most importantly, this increase in calories, up from probable deprivation, combined with cardio is finally starting to eliminate the fat.

However, I've been tempted to try a keto diet. I would restrict or eliminate carbs during the week, but carb up on the weekends (I'm sorry, I need my French Toast and toasted blueberry muffin at my local diner/restaurant).

Is it a simple matter of keeping the same total calories, but shifting the proportions in favor of fat and protein? Is there a place that outlines a simple keto menu plan or ratios? I've done some reading on the Atkins site, but there's nothing about proportions.

Should I even bother with switching diet methods? I really would like to start getting the fat off faster.

Any comments or observations are welcome. :D

IPR
01-29-2003, 02:25 PM
Looks like we will need to put that leash back on ;)

Minotaur, as you said yourself, you are finding the fat is starting to go...... excellent , well done :D

Its workong, why change? Yes, refeeds etc to raise/maintain met rate (you can still do this on your ratios) are good, but I don't see any reason to switch to keto.

If you really are interested, I would suggest setting a target for your diet and when you reach that then switch. This will also give you time to research and learn about keto and do it properly.

Great to hear things are working for you.....but be patient :)

Minotaur
01-29-2003, 07:16 PM
Thanks IPR.

After I posted, I thought the same thing... that people would probably say why switch if this course is working. Aka, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I'm probably best off sticking with this current approach for now. What I may do after I get to my goal and stay there for a while, is bulk next winter, then try a keto approach to lose the fat.

bb5-0
01-30-2003, 02:11 AM
I tried a keto diet before and was very enthusiastic about it.
I derived a lot of benefits from it as increased fat loss, feeling much more energetic once my body was used to burning fat instead of carbs for energy and didn't feel hungry at all as fat takes longer to digest and you feel fuller longer.
Moreover as Dorian and fitnessman put it in one of their articles, as we get older the metabolism slows down and we have a tendency to put on fat easier when we mix carbs and fats.

Basically keto-diet works like this
daily calories : 10x your bodyweight (lbs)
Protein = 1g/lb of bodyweight
carbs = about 50gr/day
Fat= remaining calories

Also postworkout shake 30g carbs/30gr protein doesn't count in your daily intake
And once (or twice) a week you can have a carb up day (French toast and muffin ? :-)

For more details read Dorian's articles : www.bodybuilding.com/fun/dorian7.htm if you haven't read it before and the thread in this section.

I would definitely advise you to try keto diet some day and see if it makes any difference. It did for me.
OK - This was my 5 eurocent! Hope it helps

Minotaur
03-13-2003, 12:49 PM
Well, the fat loss just isn't happening. I've tried increasing calories, I've tried decreasing calories, I've done cardio, I've done no cardio. This may all be hormonal; my endocrinologist increased my gh dosage. But I dunno...

At any rate, the one thing I haven't tried is a keto diet. So, I'm going to try it. I've read the article mentioned above, as well as this one http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/keto.htm This all seems simple enough.

It turns out that Dorian's and Fitnessman's example works out perfectly for me... I'm about 205 lbs, so my amounts will be 2000 calories, 200 g of protein (800 cals.), 50 g of carb (200 cals.), and 111 g of fat (999 cals.).

I have a sample menu...

Early am
Whey protein shake (1% milk, whey protein) w/some flax or olive oil thrown in.

Mid am
Cottage cheese, 1 cup w/ nat. pb, 1 tbsp.

Lunch
Salmon fillet, green beans.

Mid afternoon
Turkey breast salad, 4 oz. turkey w/ mayo.

Early pm
Tuna in olive oil.

Post workout shake (juice and whey protein).

According to fitday.com, this should work out to the suggested amounts.

MagicMel
03-13-2003, 02:21 PM
I started keto'ing last week for the first time, and it's been going pretty well. I've dropped only a couple of pounds but more importantly i've dropped over 2% BF! My daily intake is now about 2200 cals, but I weigh 148lbs. It's been hard for me to get the cals down because of the amount flax that I take in accounts for over 500 cals. But why drop the cals when it seems to be working for me at almost 15x bodyweight.

It was suggested to me that for the first week or so, just try to get used to the diet without counting calories. I would strongly suggest that in your case, too. Also, get some Ketostix at your local pharmacy. They indicate whether or not you are in ketosis. All it needs to indicate is "trace", and you're in.

For breakfast, why not go with eggs and bacon or sausage?

Fitnessman does not recommend whey protein shakes except for post-workout, because the quick digestion of whey prompts some form of insulin response and also whey does not keep you filled up long enough, even if you add flax to it. It was suggested to me that a blended protein shake like Optimum Nutrition Pro Complex would be a better choice.

You DO count the total calories in your post w/o shake, as well as the grams of protein, but you do not count the grams of carbs.
You also, do not count the fiber carbs in your greens. Watch out for the carbs in your 1% milk, too, if you continue that morning shake. I would just use water. Remember the lower the fat content in milk, the higher the carbs seem to be.

Regarding carb-ups, they say that you can do 1 carb-up MEAL midweek, and then a carb-up DAY on weekend. I might suggest targeting your carb-ups on the days before working out legs, and/or chest or back. It will give you back the needed energy to do the larger muscle groups.

Have fun with the food. Heck, I just love fried pork rinds!

Minotaur
03-13-2003, 03:38 PM
Thanks for the tips, Mel. I won't stress over the numbers in the beginning.

Yes, I was concerned about the carbs in the milk, 12g per 8 oz. Two of those shakes, and I'm at 50% of my carb alotment... and they're simple carbs too. And I can deal with whey protein only after a workout. I need something around 6am, though. That's when I'm getting ready for work, and buzzing around. Not much time for any kind of sit down eating. :( I can think of something though. bwahahaha! A can of sardines first thing in the morning! What a way to start the day. :D

My carb up day would be on Saturday; my carb up meal midweek would probably be Wednesday, before chest. For some reason, working chest takes more out of me than working legs. Well, I am stronger in my lower body. My upper body strength bites.

MagicMel
03-13-2003, 04:02 PM
On Sunday night, I boil a dozen eggs for my morning breakfasts. Then I just nuke some Jimmy Dean sausage patties at work.
You can make good use of the high fat content in macadamia nuts. Almonds are also a quick source of protein & fat. Try beef jerky, too. But sardines first thing in the AM? ugh!

IPR
03-13-2003, 06:46 PM
Definitely drop the whey protein shake first thing in the morning. I would suggest a blended with olive oil or flax instead if you must have a shake. But don't use milk, water is better.

An important thing to remember is that you daily carb allowance shouldn't be used in one meal. Aim for no more than 10g net carbs in any one meal and you should be fine.

I have just started a keto bulk which will last 6-8 weeks then back to keto cutting.

Keto does work, but I would suggest throwing out the scales and just use the tape and mirror as you guide ;)

Minotaur
03-14-2003, 06:17 AM
Keto bulk? Hmm... well, I'm getting a little ahead of things asking about that. I've to get the cut down first. :D

OK, so the milk and whey will be, as Monty Python said "RIGHT OUT!" I have a new half gallon of Lactaid 1% in the fridge which no one else will drink (well, they will if I pour it into the regular milk container :D).

And I've pretty much given up on the scale anyway. It's useless except to see if I've gained muscle but no fat. You know, weight goes up but not waistline. I always rely on the tape measure and the mirror. Years ago in college (back in 1976 just after we evolved into humans), my phys. ed. instructor had one simple fat testing method. He said "look in the mirror; if you look fat , you are." Smart guy.

fitnessman
03-14-2003, 06:30 AM
You guys are like watching flowers bloom!

Keep up the good work!

IPR
03-15-2003, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by fitnessman
You guys are like watching flowers bloom!
More like a weed.......much tougher than those dainty little flowers :D

Belle
03-15-2003, 11:32 PM
I tried CKD for one week but found it very confusing so I dropped back to keto every day and then eventually back to a more balanced diet.

I have heard good think of the cyclic keto diet though here is a link that I used for working out what my macronutrient percentages should be when on the supercompensation diet and the keto diet from one end of the week to the next:


http://go.to/quadrafit

Then click on Workout/Fitness News in the yellow menu to the left and then click on the 8 week Supercut Diet/Training.

On that page it has a link to a calculator. You just put in your variables and hit the button and it works out your calories, macronutrient percentages and everything.

The calculator is here, but an explanation of CKD is at the above:

http://www.voicenet.com/~petrizzi/fitness/ckdcalc.html

Contents of that page:

Diet

Of course, it all starts with diet. I hate to diet as much as anyone does, but we all know that it is a necessary evil. Since this is only an 8-week course, the most effective diet to use is a CKD (cyclical ketogenic diet).

I know, I know. CKD’s are a pain in the ass. Who has time to figure out all of the ratios and all that? Well, fortunately my girlfriend found a site that does all of that work for you. All you have to do is answer a few questions and it will generate your info for you.

Here’s the link:

http://www.voicenet.com/~petrizzi/fitness/ckdcalc.html

While I’m at it, here’s a link to an article with good, basic CKD guidelines:

http://www.solid.net/lowcarb/lylemcd/cyclic1.html

http://www.soild.net/lowcarb/lylemcd/cyclic2.html

So, now you know how you have to split up your macronutrients for the ketogenic phase (Monday through Friday PM) and for the supercompensation phase (carb-up … Friday PM – Sunday PM).

For the unimaginative, or for the easily bored, I am also going to give you a few links to some low carb recipe pages.

http://www.ptyza.com/pamstuff/lowcook.htm

http://www.lowcarb.ca/recipes.html

Some people can go all week drinking protein in water and doing shots of flax oil to stay in ketosis. That seems like a lot of fun, but I am not one of those guys. I need some food with my shakes! It is possible to eat a variety of foods while you are on the low-carb portion of the diet … it just takes a little planning. You will see that in the menu/recipe section.

You eat a low carb diet Monday though Friday, until after your weight training on Friday night. Then you begin your "carb up" or supercompensation phase.

Carb-up days are easy. Just eat lots of low fat, high carb foods. Throw in a few protein shakes each day and you should easily be able to cover yourself. If you can’t eat all of those carbs, drink ‘em. UltraFuel works well. Drink lots of Gatorade.

You might do yourself a favor by taking a Lactaid supplement if you are going to take in dairy products during these 2 days, or you may try switching to Lactaid milk during this period. This is because your body won’t be ready for the lactose in regular milk if you go off the deep end.

Also, you will want to start taking a supplement called Beano with your meals. The Beano provides you with an enzyme to break down some starches in your system. You will be putting away a lot of calories in a short time, and the "beneficial bacteria" chillin out in your intestine are gonna go crazy when all of the fiber/sugar hits them after they’ve been deprived for about a week.

I learned this the hard way before, and I was running to the bathroom every 10 minutes. Lactaid and Beano are cheap, and they will save you some trouble.

Dietary Supplements

Some supplements you should consider taking while on this diet include:

A basic multivitamin and mineral supplement is warranted due to the lack of breads, cereals, grains, fruits and some vegetables for 5 days per week.

I also recommend Fibersol by Twinlab or Sugar Free Metamucil before you go to bed each night during the low-carb phases because of the lack of dietary fiber that low carbohydrate foods possess. Fibersol/Metamucil are carbohydrate-free soluble fiber. Even if you want to forget all the healthy benefits of a high fiber diet, at least know that it may be very unhealthy and unpleasant to not have at least one bowel movement per day. If you don't supplement with fiber you may not have a movement for 3-4 days. That's way too long.
You may also want to add L-glutamine at 40 grams per day, split up 5 grams every 3 hours you
are awake, and 10 grams right before bed.

Glutamine is the most abundant amino acid in muscle. It improves immune cell function, stimulates protein synthesis, and prevents catabolism from the effects of cortisol. I have made it through many cutting cycles NATURAL without losing much muscle, and I attribute that to high glutamine intake. It has no taste, and you can mix it in with your Crystal Light. No problem.

Although not a supplement, I cannot suggest or recommend highly enough, that you consume at least 1 gallon of water every day -- not soda or coffee. With a higher protein intake and because ketone bodies act as a natural diuretic, you'll urinate more. This can cause mild states of dehydration that could cause some not-so-mild performance problems in the gym if you don't replace the water lost.

TRAINING

For the rest of the program, click here