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edster951
01-19-2003, 01:58 AM
Christ, didn't realise I had got so fat during bulking Nov02-Dec02

And these measurements are after two weeks of Keto, except the bf%(Dec02)

Oct01 Dec01 06Jan03
Weight 127kg 106.6kg 96.8kg (213lbs)
Chest 124cm 105.5cm 103cm (40.5in)
Arms 37cm 35.5cm 41.3cm (16.25in)
Waist 132cm 101.5cm 100cm (39.25in)
Hips 131cm 114cm 105.5cm (41.5in)
Thigh 72cm 63cm 66.6cm (26.25in)
Calf 43cm (17in)

bf% 37% 34% 22.4% (Dec02)

Goal
Get the weight down to 88kg (193.6lbs)
Get the bf% down to about 15%

The ones I'm most proud of are my weight loss and arm gain!!
From Dec01 my arms have gone from 35.5cm(14in) to 41.3cm(16.25in), that 2.25in in 12 months

TwoWalks
01-19-2003, 06:41 AM
Ed, welcome to the challenge: You have done a fantastic job and shown real determination and stick too it. I know you and I will spend a long time here together.

Keep it going and I will see you at the end of the challenge. Comparing our weights is great because they are so close together and going down the same hill:)

tracyb555
01-19-2003, 07:15 AM
Glad to have you join us Edster. I know what you mean about those unwanted pounds creeping up on you. I'm sure you will do great on the challenge.

edster951
01-19-2003, 11:11 AM
Monday 20th Jan

5.30
xenadrine x2, glutamine 15g

6am - 7.15
db bench press - 27.5kg (60.5lbs) x10r, x10s
Prone Rows - 15kg dbs (33lbs) x10r, x10s
Protein shake, 7.5g creatine.
Standing Cable Flyes - 35kg (77lbs) x10r, x5s
24 mins HIIT Cardio
Very heavy legs as still sore from Saturdays leg day.

7.30am
4 eggs omelette, grated cheese, tblspn sunflower oil.

10.15am
Tuna with water drained, tblspn oil

12.00
Chicken breast fried in oil, lettuce, tomato, processed cheese square. Coffee with milk and sweeteners.

2.00pm
Slice of cheese

3.30pm
Slice of cheese, coffee, milk with 2 sugars, (ouch, mum has no sweeteners, I'll take some round later)

6.00pm
Chiken breast in oil, 2 eggs, cheese.
I had to cook and couldn't be bothered thinking. Chicken already thawed in fridge.

Totals
Cals,Fat,Carb,protein
Totals 3128 178 87 281

Will add as the day goes on....

kendo
01-19-2003, 01:28 PM
Good to see ya going for it Ed. Looks like there's a bunch of us goin for it in here together! You have a great attitude and determination, and we are all behind you. Seems like you are enjoying the keto way too. Plus us northernhemispherers are jealous of your suntan.

Hibiscus09
01-20-2003, 06:22 AM
Good luck, Edster! I know you'll do great! It's kind of fun having so many of us doing a challenge at the same time -- it helps to keep me going! :)

edster951
01-20-2003, 11:25 AM
Glad to be of assistance Hib.

Tuesday 21 Jan

5.30
Xenadrine x2

5.45 - 7.15am
Weighted crunches x 100, (10x10)
Weighted lying leg raises, x 50
Incline crunches x 50
Seated weighted crunches x 60
Eliptical cross trainer 30 mins
10 mins in sauna
Protein, 1 egg, creatine shake in changing room

7.30am
3 egg omelette, 2 slices ham, grated cheese.

10.30am
6 slices cheese, vegemite, ham, coffee milk 2 sweeteners


More to be added later....

little lats
01-20-2003, 12:28 PM
Edster you couldn't have picked a sexier pose than that. Could luck! Keep it goin

edster951
01-20-2003, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by little lats
Edster you couldn't have picked a sexier pose than that. Could luck! Keep it goin
You know how to win these things. Put in a **** first picture, and pose for the final pictures.

little lats
01-20-2003, 03:00 PM
Yah, I see your point.. :D

Steelhand
01-20-2003, 07:36 PM
Edster - I noticed that you add creatine to your PWO shake. But you also pound the coffee pretty good. I have read that caffeine pretty much renders creatine useless. Have you heard of this effect? Any counter studies you are aware of?

Guess I'm just cheap, but I'm not giving up coffee (one of my last surviving habits), so I'm not going to waste money on a supplement that I am actively defeating! But if my coffee won't hurt the efficacy, I'll give it a shot.

edster951
01-20-2003, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by Steelhand
Edster - I noticed that you add creatine to your PWO shake. But you also pound the coffee pretty good. I have read that caffeine pretty much renders creatine useless. Have you heard of this effect? Any counter studies you are aware of?

Guess I'm just cheap, but I'm not giving up coffee (one of my last surviving habits), so I'm not going to waste money on a supplement that I am actively defeating! But if my coffee won't hurt the efficacy, I'll give it a shot.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/creatine.html

Q: I heard that creatine and caffeine can be consumed at the same time. But an article I read claims caffeine inhibits the absorption of creatine into muscle tissue. Which is true?

A: There was a controversial research study published in 1996 in the Journal of Applied Physiology about creatine and caffeine; however, if you study that article closely, you'll find that caffeine had no effect on creatine uptake into muscle. A more recent study by Vanakoski, et al. in 1998 investigated the pharmacokinetics of caffeine and creatine, both alone and in combination. They reported when creatine was used alone or even in combination with caffeine that, "creatine was rapidly and efficiently absorbed, as reflected by plasma concentrations." Because researchers concluded that creatine was efficiently absorbed even when combined with caffeine, it does not appear from the results of this study that caffeine exerts a negative effect on the uptake of creatine into muscle tissue.


Hope this helps.

Steelhand
01-21-2003, 04:02 AM
Appreciate the link and the info! I guess I'll have to give it a shot.

edster951
01-21-2003, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by edster951
Glad to be of assistance Hib.

Tuesday 21 Jan

5.30
Xenadrine x2

5.45 - 7.15am
Weighted crunches x 100, (10x10)
Weighted lying leg raises, x 50
Incline crunches x 50
Seated weighted crunches x 60
Eliptical cross trainer 30 mins
10 mins in sauna
Protein, 1 egg, creatine shake in changing room

7.30am
3 egg omelette, 2 slices ham, grated cheese.

10.30am
6 slices cheese, vegemite, ham, coffee milk 2 sweeteners

1.00pm
3 sausages, 1/4 tin baked beans (oops, carbs)

5.30pm
1/2 cup peas, meat pie (oops, carbs)

9.00pm
Cheese slices, vegemite, ham slices
Getting harder as the week goes on, cupboard getting light on protein.


More to be added later....

edster951
01-21-2003, 11:23 AM
Wednesday 22 Jan

5.30
xenadrine x2

5.45 - 7pm
Dead lifts 60kg (132lbs) x 10r, x2s warm ups
Dead lifts 105kg (231lbs) x10r, x6s
db side raises 10kg (22lbs) x10r, x3s
db side raises 12.5kgs (27.5lbs) x8r, x2s
protein, creatine shake.
upright rows, 15kg (33lbs) db each hand x 10r, x5s

7.30
bran, oats, banana, full cream milk (I know, not keto, but a mid week feed)

10am
3 egg omelette, cheese, oil

1.00
cheese on two slices of brown bread (oops, carbs)

2.30pm
coffee, milk, sweeteners.

no cardio today. Am going to hydrate my self fully for two days as I have a BIA test on Friday morning.


will add more later.

Steelhand
01-21-2003, 05:23 PM
[Cheese slices, vegemite, ham slices
Getting harder as the week goes on, cupboard getting light on protein. ]Originally posted by edster951

I thought just Aussies pounded the vegemite. You Kiwis eat it too?

BTW, You live on an island, and I've yet to see a piece of seafood in the diet. What gives?

ManOSteel
01-21-2003, 06:03 PM
Edster,

You are doing absolutely fantastic based upon the changes in your stats and your before/after pics.

Are you sure your chest measurement isn't bigger. All your current proportions are very good, however your chest should be relatively bigger (~43-45 inches). If it is correct, that is an area you may want to work on to achieve better symetry.

Please note however, this is not a criticism, just a suggestion, you are doing an awesome job.

MOS.

edster951
01-21-2003, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by Steelhand
[Cheese slices, vegemite, ham slices
Getting harder as the week goes on, cupboard getting light on protein. ]Originally posted by edster951

I thought just Aussies pounded the vegemite. You Kiwis eat it too?

We eat the stuff as well ,very high in niacin and vit b.

We also eat a lot of marmite. Have to watch these though as they are high in sodium.

Seafood ain't that cheap here either. Blue cod is $24NZ, cheaper to get it out the harbour yourself. :)

edster951
01-21-2003, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by ManOSteel
Are you sure your chest measurement isn't bigger. All your current proportions are very good, however your chest should be relatively bigger (~43-45 inches). If it is correct, that is an area you may want to work on to achieve better symetry.

Please note however, this is not a criticism, just a suggestion, you are doing an awesome job.

MOS.
Taken as advice not criticism.

I know my chest area is small, but if I breath in I can get it to 43in. I also know my lats are small as well.

I am working on increasing the chest size, but if you have an idea how I can do that then fire away and I'll tweak my program. All suggestions greatfully accepted.

TrishB
01-21-2003, 06:23 PM
Edster, when you do the bran/oats in the morning like that, do you stay in ketosis?
Are you using the keto sticks? I am hooked on them. :)

I think I might try some oats for breakfast next week, since I do miss having it.

edster951
01-21-2003, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by TrishB
Edster, when you do the bran/oats in the morning like that, do you stay in ketosis?
Are you using the keto sticks? I am hooked on them. :)

I think I might try some oats for breakfast next week, since I do miss having it.
I don't know if I've ever gone into ketosis, never tested, don't have the stix.

Slipped a bit this today as we are running out of protein, without me eating us out of house and home, i've had to eat some carbs. :mad:

IPR
01-21-2003, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by TrishB
I think I might try some oats for breakfast next week, since I do miss having it.

Trish...........I'm watching you ;)

If you want the oats wait until carb-up or a refeed meal. Eds banana and oats etc was a refeed/carb-up meal, not part of his keto.

edster951
01-21-2003, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by IPR
Trish...........I'm watching you ;)

If you want the oats wait until carb-up or a refeed meal. Eds banana and oats etc was a refeed/carb-up meal, not part of his keto.
Yes sir, sorry sir, but but but....... :(

(read my previous post)

TrishB
01-21-2003, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by IPR
Trish...........I'm watching you ;)

If you want the oats wait until carb-up or a refeed meal. Eds banana and oats etc was a refeed/carb-up meal, not part of his keto.


You know I was wondering if you were going to read that. :D

OK...I will be good. But Edster is becoming a bad influence on me. I think you should be watching him and forget about me. :)

IPR
01-21-2003, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by edster951
Taken as advice not criticism.

I know my chest area is small, but if I breath in I can get it to 43in. I also know my lats are small as well.

I am working on increasing the chest size, but if you have an idea how I can do that then fire away and I'll tweak my program. All suggestions greatfully accepted.

Ed, I think it was Abdominator who said that a good V requires about a 10" difference between waist and chest.

IMHO Lats are probably the thing to target, as even without depth, wide last give good shape.

For this its got to be chins if your shoulders are okay. I found that although I couldn't do alot at first, the lats get a very different w/o doing chins compared to pull-downs. If you have one at your gym, try the assisted chins, but watchout, I found these hurt my shoulder due to the prescribed angle it set my torso in.

One other plus with chins.....as you lose fat, they get easier:D

edster951
01-21-2003, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by TrishB
You know I was wondering if you were going to read that. :D

OK...I will be good. But Edster is becoming a bad influence on me. I think you should be watching him and forget about me. :)

:eek: :(

IPR
01-21-2003, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by TrishB
You know I was wondering if you were going to read that. :D

OK...I will be good. But Edster is becoming a bad influence on me. I think you should be watching him and forget about me. :)

I am watching everybody.......... I am the ever present eye ;)

Hibiscus09
01-21-2003, 06:48 PM
You're the Bodybuilding.com voyeur! :)

IPR
01-21-2003, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by Hibiscus09
You're the Bodybuilding.com voyeur! :)

LMAO

I wish :D

Hibiscus09
01-21-2003, 06:53 PM
Here, I looked it up for you -- I'm giving you definition #2 -- the first one was too racy & I'm getting a bad reputation!

"A prying observer who is usually seeking the sordid or the scandalous."

Trish wanting to have oats when she's not carbing up -- SCANDALOUS!!

IPR
01-21-2003, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by Hibiscus09
"A prying observer who is usually seeking the sordid or the scandalous."

Errrr......yep seems to fit :D

TrishB
01-21-2003, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by Hibiscus09

Trish wanting to have oats when she's not carbing up -- SCANDALOUS!!
HEY...who's side you on here??


Eddie...Sorry, I should have accepted the blame for my actions instead of trying to get you into trouble. :(
You can come over my house, I have plenty of proteins in the fridge for you. :)
And plenty of carbs in the freezer. :D

Hibiscus09
01-21-2003, 07:09 PM
I'm on yours! :) Please forgive me.

TrishB
01-21-2003, 07:13 PM
You are forgiven. :)

edster951
01-21-2003, 08:18 PM
well, well, well... oats, scandal, trish, hib, ipr!!

Who knows where it'll end, all because I had this morning.

Today is bad for carbs, but have to eat something. Everyone here please chip in for my airfare to USA and I'll come and raid your freezers for protein.

I thought I was doing well, keeping up twith keto for 2 1/2 weeks, but as always, even when bulking up, the food would run out with about a day or two to go to payday, and my meals would get "dirtier".

I'll have to find some gyms and MRP's for when I go to Australia for a week, or just eat mcdonalds and burger king, minus the bread rolls.
In the hotels, breaky will be easy, bacon and eggs, and if a buffet breaky, I could have seconds.

ManOSteel
01-21-2003, 08:51 PM
Edster,

I pretty much agree with IPR, keep working the lats and chest. I have found that separating my incline and flat chest workouts within the same week to be fairly effective for growth. And as IPR said, nothing like chins moving your grip around - also change up your grip on the seated rows. Personally I go as heavy as possible (without getting hurt of course).

I had never heard what the Abdominator said about a good V requires about a 10" difference between waist and chest, however I think it is pretty accurate. I had my measures taken this pm and they were 46 3/4" chest and 33" waist (at about 5' 9" - 195 lbs @ approx 10%bf). I am more of a light heavyweight which is where I think you will be. Your progress is awesome, keep it up.

MOS

edster951
01-21-2003, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by ManOSteel
Edster,

I pretty much agree with IPR, keep working the lats and chest. I have found that separating my incline and flat chest workouts within the same week to be fairly effective for growth. And as IPR said, nothing like chins moving your grip around - also change up your grip on the seated rows. Personally I go as heavy as possible (without getting hurt of course).

I am more of a light heavyweight which is where I think you will be. Your progress is awesome, keep it up.

MOS
I can do up to 6 chins at present. I know I'm weak in that area. Should set myself a goal to increase to chins to 10 by end of February. I may do some pulldowns with a "chins grip", and slowly build up to full bodyweight.

Maybe if I do keto properly I would loose the fat quicker and be able to do chins :)

IPR
01-21-2003, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by edster951
I can do up to 6 chins at present. I know I'm weak in that area. Should set myself a goal to increase to chins to 10 by end of February. I may do some pulldowns with a "chins grip", and slowly build up to full bodyweight.

Maybe if I do keto properly I would loose the fat quicker and be able to do chins :)

On chins, one thing I do is try for sets of 10 with a wide palms away grip, and after I hit failure I take a narrower grip with palms facing. Lets me knock out a few more due to biceps relative freshness.

edster951
01-22-2003, 02:02 AM
Originally posted by IPR
On chins, one thing I do is try for sets of 10 with a wide palms away grip, and after I hit failure I take a narrower grip with palms facing. Lets me knock out a few more due to biceps relative freshness.
Failure for me is about 2 with the wide grip, palms facing away, but I suppose I'm trying to hoist up 214lbs

IPR
01-22-2003, 04:03 AM
Originally posted by edster951
..............but I suppose I'm trying to hoist up 214lbs

You do have a point there :D

edster951
01-22-2003, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by lfl
Well, I had to post this test I conducted yesterday. I received my Uni-Liver Tabs and wanted to see the time it took for one tablet to dissovle in one hour....

Oh, the things we learn on the forums...
What that have to do with my challenge or did you hit reply instead of a new thread??

edster951
01-22-2003, 11:32 AM
Thursday 23 Jan

5.30
2x xenadrine

5.45 - 7.00am
closegrip bench, 10r x 5s
dip machine - full stack - 12r x 5s
standing pushdown - 10r x 5s
standing extentions - 10r x 5s
Reverse grip pushdowns - 10r x 3s
Protein, creatine shake

Preacher Curls 12r x 1s warm up
Preacher Curls 4r x 2s, full stack
Preacher Curls 8r x 3s
Seated db curls 6r x 2s
Hammer curls ,pump to failure, drop sets x 3

And now the results of my experiment

Took the tape to the gym today

Pre Workout bi - tri circumference - 16.25in
Post Workout circumference 17.5in

**** 1.25in pump!!!! I did flog them and pump pretty hard today... :) :) :)

Hard to beleive, but it explains why I can't touch my shoulder when finished, ie right hand to right shoulder. Just managing to now after an hour.

No diet today, it'll upset IPR!!

wyattn
01-22-2003, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by ManOSteel
Edster,

I pretty much agree with IPR, keep working the lats and chest.

I had never heard what the Abdominator said about a good V requires about a 10" difference between waist and chest, however I think it is pretty accurate. I had my measures taken this pm and they were 46 3/4" chest and 33" waist (at about 5' 9" - 195 lbs @ approx 10%bf). I am more of a light heavyweight which is where I think you will be. Your progress is awesome, keep it up.

MOS


the 10" difference does make sense but that is just one of geometric variables, and is different with height. Someone who is 5'4 with a 10 inch differential will have a much more tapered 'V' than someone who is 6'4 with a 10 inch differential....And remember that delts play a big role in the appearence of the 'V', so work the lats, the delts, and burn off the belly to get a strong 'V'....

IPR
01-22-2003, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by edster951
No diet today, it'll upset IPR!!

:mad:

:D

Actually a planned refeed day (he he sounds much better this way doesn't it :D) will restore leptin levels and maintain met rate. So.......a good thing, not a mad thing ;)

And man that is some pump :)

TwoWalks
01-22-2003, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by edster951
Failure for me is about 2 with the wide grip, palms facing away, but I suppose I'm trying to hoist up 214lbs

Wow, palms facing toward or away - wide grip or narrow grip - failure is the same for me 1/2. Oh such a joy with screwed up shoulders X big belly:)

TwoWalks
01-22-2003, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by edster951
Failure for me is about 2 with the wide grip, palms facing away, but I suppose I'm trying to hoist up 214lbs

Wow, palms facing toward or away - wide grip or narrow grip - failure is the same for me 1/2. Oh such a joy with screwed up shoulders X big belly:)

edster951
01-22-2003, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by TwoWalks
Wow, palms facing toward or away - wide grip or narrow grip - failure is the same for me 1/2. Oh such a joy with screwed up shoulders X big belly:)
With chins, narrow grip, palm facing I can squeeze out 6, wait a couple and do about 5, wait a couple and do 4-5.

With wide grip, palm facing away I can do 1-2.

wyattn
01-23-2003, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by edster951
With chins, narrow grip, palm facing I can squeeze out 6, wait a couple and do about 5, wait a couple and do 4-5.




With wide grip, palm facing away I can do 1-2.


Doesn't narrow grip palms forward use a lot more bicep to assist in the movement....and wide grip palms away work more the lats?.... I'm guessing you've done a lot more bicep work than back work in the past. I'd simply recommend doing the harder wide grip to focus more on the lats and to eliminate as much of the biceps as possible, and leave the bicep work to curls, drag curls, preacher curls and the such.


i'm 230 and can do 3 sets of 10 at BW on a good day. I do remember my first shot where two reps caused failure and sent sheering, twitching, tingling sensations through out my entire body, or at least that is the way I remember it...


couple things you could try ....

1) 8 sets of 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 or something just as insane with litte rest between the sets....
2) use a chair under the legs to cheat another 2 reps so you can do 3-4 reps per set
3) use a chair and after you fail at 1 or 2, do a couple negatives by lifting yourself up, pulling your knees back off the chair and lowering yourself very slowly.

Just some thoughts, but I have used #1 and #3 myself, but I'm not sure how much they contributed to being able to do what I can do...i might have gotten the same results doing 3 sets of 2 reps each week.

just a few thoughts.

TwoWalks
01-23-2003, 10:14 AM
Wattn, some great suggestions, think I might give it another try and see how the shoulders hold up.

edster951
01-23-2003, 12:03 PM
Thanks wyattn, seems like a new program is in the pipeline.

I started it, sort of, today

Friday 24th Jan

Lying Cable flyes 25??units, x10r, x2s
Lying Cable flyes 30 units, x10r, x3s
Seated cable flyes 30units, x10, x5s
PecDeck 9units, x10r, x3s
30 mins on eliptical xtrainer

Held each rep for 1 second after getting a good squeeze. These feel great in the chest. Don't know why I never did them before. Good burn.

Results of BIA
Area, 12Dec02, 24Jan03
Weight, 97kg, 98.8kg, +1.8kg
Lean Mass, 37.9kg, 38.6kg, +0.7kg
Water Mass, 55.9kg, 57.2kg, +1.3kg
Fat Mass, 21.2kg, 21.5kg, +0.3kg
BF%, 21.8%, 21.8%, no change

So all I have done is hydrate myself, increase more muscle and gained very little fat. And I'm supposed to be cutting!!!!!

Time to reduce the calories I feel.

kendo
01-23-2003, 12:37 PM
I agree Ed get a high bench or chair and get some extra forced reps with those chins. You gotta be more strict with the Keto - plan and prepare and weigh for the next day and have all the days meals laid out in containers that way you don't cheat. Dont drop cals too much 13 - 14 * your weight at 217lbs will have you around 3000 cals enabling fat loss.

edster951
01-23-2003, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by kendo
I agree Ed get a high bench or chair and get some extra forced reps with those chins. You gotta be more strict with the Keto - plan and prepare and weigh for the next day and have all the days meals laid out in containers that way you don't cheat. Dont drop cals too much 13 - 14 * your weight at 217lbs will have you around 3000 cals enabling fat loss.
But all I have done is increase muscle and maintained fat.

I wanted to loose fat as well. Seems very strange to keep calories at 3000. Fatloss has been minimal.

Must get some ketostix

Breaky
4 eggs omelette cooked in oil, protein shake, creatine

Morning Tea (Hib :) )
2 eggs fried in oil, cheese, 1 slice of bread.

I'm going to watch the oil a bit more as I was having the oil to cook with and then adding another to eat with. Maybe too much oil??

TwoWalks
01-23-2003, 02:20 PM
Ed, first and probably most important, I don't know anything about Keto: My normal advice and I don't know if it apply with your diet, would be to drop 200 calories and lower the oil a little.

If it applies and makes sense then it is a good thing - if not, it was free:)

little lats
01-23-2003, 02:20 PM
Okay, lets see.

Eggs roughly 24 grams of fat--24grams of protein, shake how many grams of protein? if your shake is 30 grams you would have to have 3-4 tablespoons of oil. ???? to be keto... Guys let me know if I am wrong, but I think I would do without the Protein shake or have it a little earlier or later, with some flax, olive, or whatever oil. I just think your percentage is off here.

Hibiscus09
01-23-2003, 02:57 PM
What! No tea at morning tea? Maybe you need some green tea at your morning tea. I hear it acts as a fat burner! :)

edster951
01-23-2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by little lats
Okay, lets see.

Eggs roughly 24 grams of fat--24grams of protein, shake how many grams of protein? if your shake is 30 grams you would have to have 3-4 tablespoons of oil. ???? to be keto... Guys let me know if I am wrong, but I think I would do without the Protein shake or have it a little earlier or later, with some flax, olive, or whatever oil. I just think your percentage is off here.
Shake 32g protein...

more oil, errrrrrr!!!!

I'll have to watch the farts!!

TrishB
01-23-2003, 04:16 PM
Edster....I am not a pro by any means, but you may not be staying or even getting into ketosis.
You may be taking in too many carbs every day, and taking in carbs as well as fat is really going to cause you to increase the BF.

I would recommend you get the stix, just so you can tell for sure how you are doing.

IPR
01-23-2003, 04:47 PM
Hey Ed,

First a question, when did you start keto? I thought it was after New Year, in which case its didfficult to tell whats happening with your keto.

As you have also said yourself, you haven't been strict and to be honest at the begining you do need to be fairly strict with the carbs, and get enough fat/oil.

I would suggest tracking your proportions more closely to see what the totals really are then adjust things. If current cals are too high for you, okay, drop 250kcals from your allowance, whatever suits your metabolism.

As Trish says, maybe get some stixs, if nothing else they are confidence booster.

btw, what is BIA? and how does it calculate water weight and fat etc sperately?

My last thought is do you trust this BIA? What is the tape measure telling you? Is your waist shrinking?

ManOSteel
01-23-2003, 05:54 PM
Who needs keto sticks? Ed, if you can still think straight your not in Keto yet...j/k

Keep up the good work and don't get too caught up in the numbers, the mirror is your friend (or enemy)...and you are making great gains...

BTW, are you willing to lose some, if not many, of the muscle gains you have made? Ketosis is catabolic and unless your getting ready for a show or something, it may be unnecessary for you. Perhaps you should look into the Zig-zag diet (has many other names) to maximize fatloss (however a bit more gradual) and keeping more of your muscle gains?

It seems like you hit on the right formula before based upon your progress pictures. Just my opinion...as they say if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Regards,

MOS

edster951
01-23-2003, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by IPR
btw, what is BIA? and how does it calculate water weight and fat etc sperately?

My last thought is do you trust this BIA? What is the tape measure telling you? Is your waist shrinking?
I feel like Im getting lost here, going around in circles......getting confused by too many variables.

BIA - http://www.rjlsystems.com/
It measures the reactance and resistance of the body and calculates the lean mass, fat mass, fluid mass etc.... very nifty.
I entered my results from the gym this morning and created this report for you to see..
http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/transformation/BIA_20020124.htm

Very tempted to drop keto and get back to my usual diet. As manosteel said

It seems like you hit on the right formula before based upon your progress pictures. Just my opinion...as they say if it ain't broke don't fix it.

IPR
01-23-2003, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by edster951
I feel like Im getting lost here, going around in circles......getting confused by too many variables.

BIA - http://www.rjlsystems.com/
It measures the reactance and resistance of the body and calculates the lean mass, fat mass, fluid mass etc.... very nifty.

Very tempted to drop keto and get back to my usual diet. As manosteel said

Okay, now I understand........DON'T TRUST IT.

These bioimpedence systems have a HUGE margin of error. At their very best (studies carried out in University labs) under controlled conditions +/- 6% on bf%.

I have a BMI scale at home and it is way off (actually I have two, one says I'm 19% bf, the other 26%).

Fopr this reason I just used a tape and the mirror.

As for keto, seriously Ed, you should do whatever you feel works best for you and you feel most comfortable with. Keto is not a magic pill, so doing or not doing it won't prevent you from reaching your goal. What decides that is your determination, and you have LOTS of that :D

I agree with ManOSteel, maybe diet that worked before is the one to stick with.

Edit: Ed, I just found this paper on the BIA method and its aplicability etc. http://consensus.nih.gov/ta/015/015_statement.htm#3_3._How_

ManOSteel
01-23-2003, 07:22 PM
Ed,

Additionally, in my opinion, a diet which is slow and steady on the weight loss is likely to be adhered to over the long time. I know of a number of guys who drop like 40-60 lbs after bulking to get ready for a show using keto, soon as the show is over they are back up 15-20 within a week (not kidding) and perhaps there is even a rebound which makes it worse. Anyway, as long as you are doing something, you have won!


IPR: nice reference, I'll drop it in my bb favorites...thanks.

MOS

edster951
01-23-2003, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by IPR
Fopr this reason I just used a tape and the mirror.

As for keto, seriously Ed, you should do whatever you feel works best for you and you feel most comfortable with. Keto is not a magic pill, so doing or not doing it won't prevent you from reaching your goal. What decides that is your determination, and you have LOTS of that :D

I agree with ManOSteel, maybe diet that worked before is the one to stick with.
But my diet hasn't been working, thats why I wanted to try keto.

I lost most of the weight, 127kg - 106kg in 10 weeks, by cardio only twice a day for 90mins. 3 meals a day, and water. ie starvation!!

Then in 13 months I went from 106kg to what I am now 98.8kg.

All I think I have done is shuffle the deckchairs around a bit.

I'm almost telling myself I'll never get to 88kg as I will slowly change the bf%, but maintain the weight. Unfortunately the bf% has varied between 19%and 22%, currently 21.8%

On keto I was quite strict. I had carbs during the weekend, and on wednesday mornings. I had a fight with the wifey as I ate all the chicken, mince, cheese, oil. She's complaining I'm eating all the good stuff and leaving herself and the kids whats left.

Then this week, due to nothing left as it was the end of the payweek, I had to eat carbs or have nothing!!

Its getting so frustrating not being able to budge the bf%. I look, bigger, I'm stronger, but the tale of the tape and the BIA donot suggest this. My trousers are no looser, infact I've had to let my belt a bit.

I'm very close to saying "......... it all!!" :mad:

Keto is confusing the hell out of me. Eat 3000cals and oil. I can't do much more cardio, 30 mins HIIT in the am and 45mins run in the evening. Everytime I sit in the chair home I doze off. More cheese I say and have a couple of slices.

.................................................. .......grrrrrrrrr :mad:

Sense the DAMN frustration........

IPR
01-23-2003, 11:58 PM
Ed, have faith my friend........you WILL hit 88kg.

Right....your sticking to keto.

Lets go through your diet piece by piece and see if we can find out the problem.

Carbs: no more than 30g per day excluding post w/o shake. But also, no more than 10g in any one meal....watch for this one.

Does your protein shake have sweetener? Some people are affected by this and it throws them out of ketosis. Its better to avoid shakes if you can and eat real food.

Make sure you add some oil to your shake if you have one, either falx or olive oil is good. Protein in itself is partly anti-ketogenic as part can be converted to glucose.

I would suggest you increase your fat %. I'm not sure what you are on at the moment, if its roughly 50 : 50 with protein, take it to 65-70% fat, 5% carbs and 25-30% protein.

Have a fatty snack as pre bed meal. I followed Fit on this and have macadamia nuts, 12 whole ones I think is a serving. Will help with energy next day.

Okay, cheaper keto foods. Now I haven't tried this, but the book says it has all the nutrients and vits etc you need, and is 95% absorbed by the body.

Its called Pemmican (wait to you read this LOL :) )

Get say 1 pound of beef. Make jerky, basically dry it. Then grind it up.

Take 1 pound of beef suet and melt in pan a few times to get rid of the water and then strain.

Add powdered beef to the suet and mix. Pour into cake tins or similar and allow to set.

Sounds horrible I know, but apparently this is very highly nutritious keto food and can be stored and carried easily.

Now the other thought is drop your cals to 12 times body weight. This would be 2600kcals per day. We are all different so the multiple that works for one person isn't necessarily right for another.

Now is the time to keep going, where others may give in. You've just got to find your keto, and then it'll happen for you. Whatever you do, make sure you get enough fat. It slows down digestion and keeps you fuller longer.

You can and will do this Ed :D

IPR
01-24-2003, 12:30 AM
Ed, I've just reread your journal food entries and can see a few more things to watch for.

- sweetners in your tea/coffee. I'm seeing quite abit of this, if you are sensitive to this it will affect ketosis.

- mid-week refeed. As you have only just started keto, its too soon to have these I think. You are still going through adaptation and these refeeds and carb-up as well may be causing problems.

- In the first entry your total carbs are shown as 87g, I don't know if thats net or not, but you must keep below 50g net, better at 30g net at first.

- Keep the weekend carb-up short and clean. Make it just 24hrs max, say Fri evening meal through sat, but with sat evening meal a fat meal. Don't go over maintenance during the carb-up, maybe stay at the same cals as weekdays. And keep the fats very low during this time.

You may have been mixing your fats and carbs during the carb-up. For some people its okay, but for others they experience some spillover. Watch your carb-up cals.

Watch those hidden carbs, and the total carbs per meal, thats the key IMO.

kendo
01-24-2003, 01:58 AM
I think you are frying your head with figures, calculations, charts and reports Ed. I have been in the situation before when I could no longer get fat shifted no matter what. I was trying too hard too much cardio, too many fat burners, too few calories, dieting too long and sooner or later the body fights back. Just dont over do it - make a subtle drop in cals, simple as that without all the rocket science and don't go overboard on the carbs. IPR gave some good pointers there to things that might throw your keto off. Avoid the carbs and drop the fats slightly and don't get bogged down with figures.

little lats
01-24-2003, 06:49 AM
I agree, it is to hard to determine how much your food absorbs fat when cooking. I guess I tend to still use a non-fat cooking spray on the pan, and use something else that I can get a value out of such as peppers in oil mix. Adds taste and you can count on the value of fat a little more.

Remember I played the yo yo game the first couple of weeks. Now I know what I can and can't do. This morning my wife stopped and got some donuts. I was just dieing. So I settled for coffee and a serving of irish creme sweetner. Not enough to get me out, but enough to help me get through the temptation. This can be a pain as any diet. It is no different, the problem we have is we know how to lower carbs and we are conditioned to do so. It is the same game just reveresed.. It looks like you are LOWERING your carbs from previous diet, but haven't dedicated to the fat. I know how it feels. I was frustrated. Keep it up.

edster951
01-24-2003, 11:04 AM
I have to go to Aus on Thursday next week for 7 days for a conference.

Youknow what they're like.

I could eat keto for breaky, but morning tea's, lunches etc put on by the hosts are carb feasts!!!

What I might do is rest for 7-10 days, get over the conference, and start again when I get back. I'll try to be controlled while over there. I'll get MRP's for the snacks etc...I know these are not keto, but will be better then cakes,coffees, muffins sandwiches etc...

Thanks for the advice guys. I think I'm turning something simple into rocket science. I'll just have to clear my head bit and try again later with a clean slate.

SENSORY OVERLOAD!!

little lats
01-24-2003, 11:28 AM
Yah, it will be hard, just maintain until you get back...

edster951
01-24-2003, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by IPR
Its called Pemmican (wait to you read this LOL :) )

Get say 1 pound of beef. Make jerky, basically dry it. Then grind it up.

Take 1 pound of beef suet and melt in pan a few times to get rid of the water and then strain.

Add powdered beef to the suet and mix. Pour into cake tins or similar and allow to set.
The closest I've come to having thins is

Brown mince meat (Beef put thorugh a mincer) in the saucepan with tblspoon oil and allow to set. It is very fatty and 500gms mince does me for two meals, so I do this for morning tea and eat the rest for afternoon tea or supper.

I'm going to sit down later and work ot 2600cals divided by 6 meals, and work out my proportions.

I eat about 12 eggs a day, 4 for breakfast, sometimes 2 fried for morning tea, and 4 supper. Is this too many??

My wife thinks I'm adding too much oil and thats why I'm not getting results. She is behind me 100%, but cannot understand the logic of eating fats and oils to loose fat. I still struggle with it now.

Breaky - (I know carbs) Bran and protein

mornig tea - 2 fried eggs, cheese

Lunch - yesterdays bacon and egg pie (minus pastry). poured on tblspoon oil.

Tea - 1 blue cod from the fish and chip shop, bacon and egg pie (minus pastry), and two fried eggs.

Supper - 4 egg omelette and grated cheese, fried in tblspn oil.

IPR
01-24-2003, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by edster951
My wife thinks I'm adding too much oil and thats why I'm not getting results. She is behind me 100%, but cannot understand the logic of eating fats and oils to loose fat. I still struggle with it now.

Ed, you may want to have a read of one of the book recommended too give you some background. But in short you need to eat fat/oil. Too little and keto doesn't work. Fat is your energy fuel and it also will raise your metabilism. Your body taking in alot of fat will adjust to be more efficient at fat burning, the enzymes required will increase. In a cal deficit, adipose tissue will then be used to make up the difference.

Eat some red meat as well. Please don't be afraid of saturated fat, you need it. Think of how ill most vegitarians are, this is for many reasons but also because they don't get enough saturated fat, and too much polyunsaturated fat.

btw, I don't see any problem with frying as you described earlier, the etra fat won't be the thing thats causing the problem, its carbs IMO. And eggs, fertile free range are very good for you, no problem there either.

Stick with it ed, your body may just be taking time to adjust. Sounds like a good idea to start afresh when you get back from Oz, clear head, new start :D

edster951
01-25-2003, 01:02 AM
Anyway

Saturday 25th Jan

Today, I did
60kg (132lbs) x 10r x2s
80kg (176lbs) x 10r x2s
90kg (198lbs) x 10r x 2 sets
90kg (198lbs) x 5r failure. got stuck at the bottom. Gave in. I felt like I could have gone on but not motivated for squats today

I was wanting 10x10 at 198lbs,

So I hopped on to the leg press

200kgs (440lbs) x 10r x6s

then leg extensions
45kg (99lbs) 10r x 3s

Looking at it like this, it was a good workout. It felt lazy and unmotivated.

IPR
01-25-2003, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by edster951
It felt lazy and unmotivated.

Yep, but you still did a good w/o.......thats what counts :D

edster951
01-26-2003, 10:19 PM
Monday 27th Jan

REST!!!!

Sorry guys but given up on keto for now.

7am
bran, protein, milk

10am
Ham / salmon sandwich

12.00
Lasagne (mince, pasta, silverbeet)

3.00pm
Tuna / peanut butter sandwich

5.30pm
Chicken, cabbage, red peppers, mushrooms, carrots.

9pm
4 egg omelette, grated cheese

REST!!!

edster951
01-26-2003, 11:26 PM
managed to get hold of some fat calipers today.

Used the seven site method to calculate bf% and doing it three times it varied between 14.9% and 15.5%

http://www.rustyiron.net/formmal7.htm

I tried the 3 site method and came up with 15.76%

http://www.rustyiron.net/formmale.htm

So my BIA's reading at 21.8% is a bit out.

Bit happier now....

Does it look more realistic??

edster951
01-26-2003, 11:28 PM
look more like 15%

IPR
01-27-2003, 12:43 AM
First pic (the before one) - No

Second pic - YES

But what do I know :)

Do a double front bi, might make it easier to see. In second pic you clearly don't have much fat in your arms and upper chest area, so 15% doesn't seem surprising.

Glad your feeling happier.

Hibiscus09
01-27-2003, 04:24 AM
edster, your arms look great in that second pic! :)

edster951
01-27-2003, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by IPR
First pic (the before one) - No

Second pic - YES

But what do I know :)

Do a double front bi, might make it easier to see. In second pic you clearly don't have much fat in your arms and upper chest area, so 15% doesn't seem surprising.

Glad your feeling happier.
The difference between relaxed and flexed. Don't need 12 weeks :)

edster951
01-27-2003, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by Hibiscus09
edster, your arms look great in that second pic! :) Thanks Hib...you know how to make a bloke feel better.

TwoWalks
01-27-2003, 10:28 AM
Ed, first it is hard to judge a relaxed picture and a flexed picture, plus your arms are in the way:)

The first picture looks to be over 20% and the flexed picture could well be 17% or 15% depending on what the arms are hiding.

Any way you cut it, you are still doing a heck of a job. On the other side of the mental coin, progress is still irrelevant if it does not fit what our minds want. Keep at it and keep making progress, it gives me hope.

TrishB
01-27-2003, 05:31 PM
I don't care what the calibers say. I love those muscles. :)

tracyb555
01-27-2003, 08:43 PM
I second what Trish says. Looking really good Edster! Keep up the good work.

edster951
01-28-2003, 02:00 AM
Thanks Guys

Tuesday 28th Jan

REST!!

7.00am
Bran, protein, milk

10am
Noodles, tuna, chicken mushrooms, peppers, coffee

12pm
Meat pie :(

3pm
Tuna and peanut butter sandwich, coffee

5.30pm
2 eggs, 3 sausages, baked beans

8pm
coffee

REST!!!!
Although I don't mention it, water all day, goes without saying

TwoWalks
01-28-2003, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by TrishB
I don't care what the calibers say. I love those muscles. :)

Well gee, lets see. Uh, being a guy lets change that just a touch. "I don't care what the calipers say. Those muscles look good" there how about that:D

edster951
01-28-2003, 09:12 PM
Wednesday 29th Jan

Lets see

am - REST

pm - REST

IPR
01-28-2003, 09:16 PM
Ed, have you checked your stats since starting the "rest" diet? Bet you've lost some bf ;)

edster951
01-28-2003, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by IPR
Ed, have you checked your stats since starting the "rest" diet? Bet you've lost some bf ;)
:D

wyattn
01-29-2003, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by TwoWalks
Well gee, lets see. Uh, being a guy lets change that just a touch. "I don't care what the calipers say. Those muscles look good" there how about that:D

That was pretty funny TwoWalks...I didn't even notice till you posted this.

Ed, keep up the great work...posing or not, I think it shows good progress.

edster951
02-05-2003, 02:13 PM
I'm back from Australia....

Rested the whole time..

Well I did go swimming every morning at 6.30am

Breakfast usually consisted of bacon, eggs, sausages etc..

morning tea, coffee and nibbles.

Lunch usually salads, and cold meats, tuna where possible.

Tea was usually some type of chicken or meat dish. (kangaroo meat, tuna, barramundi, seafood etc)


So I'm fully recharged, refreshed and raring to go on Monday.

TrishB
02-05-2003, 02:18 PM
Glad you are back Edster. Is that the bridge behind you that people can walk over the top part?
How far is Australia from NZ? My geography is not too good, but I thought it was close by.

I would love to visit, but 24 hours in a plane is just a little too much for me.

BTW....You look great in the pic! :)

Hibiscus09
02-05-2003, 03:00 PM
Great picture! :)


The longest I've ever been on a plane is the trip back from China -- it was supposed to be a 13 hour flight & they ended up not letting us off that plane for 22 hours! First, we were fogged in and couldn't land in Portland, Oregon -- then, they flew us to Seattle -- too foggy again! Then, back to Oregon -- no go. Next to Anchorage -- no customs officials & they wouldn't let us off the plane. They did finally get some fuel though! Finally, to San Francisco -- no luggage -- it went on to Columbia. It was late -- we washed our undies & hung them to dry in the bathroom & headed out the next morning. :) Fun, fun!

I would love to go to Australia.

edster951
02-05-2003, 04:12 PM
yep the Sydney Harbour Bridge. Cost AUS$150 so I flagged it away..

The flight to Aus takes about 2 1/2 - 3hours. A nice little flight. From Syndey we went to Darwin which is up the top left hand corner of Australia, in the trpoics. It taks 4 hours by plane.

The trip home was a long one....we left 12am Darwin time, and arrived home at Invercargill NZ at 4pm.

TrishB
02-05-2003, 04:24 PM
Wow...that is so cool. Thanks for the map too! It seems like NZ is in the middle of nowhere, out there in the ocean all alone.
Looks wonderful. :)

What does flagged it away mean? Did you keep the money or show your stuff and climb that bridge? :)

TwoWalks
02-05-2003, 05:58 PM
Ed, you look good in the pictures - welcome back and now the Saga continues:)

Phatman1179
02-05-2003, 06:32 PM
Ed I read some of your posts and it sounds like you are a little frustrated. You have made some incredable gains and have come miles from where you were. Keep the faith, you'll break through this minor plateau. Have you considered trying this Diet at t-mag?

http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/243tdawg.jsp

This is pretty much what I have been following for the last 3 weeks. Again You look great, stay strong.

tracyb555
02-06-2003, 07:54 AM
Edster,

Sounds like getting away did you a world of good! Hope all is going well for you this week.

edster951
02-06-2003, 10:26 AM
Had a wonderful time there.

Only bad thing about it was that my wife lisa was not there to enjoy this.

I rang her up while while watching the sunset and told her I loved her and missed her. She cried........

edster951
02-06-2003, 10:28 AM
an hour later this happened.....

edster951
02-06-2003, 10:29 AM
...and the next day I went for a walk along this beach...

wyattn
02-06-2003, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by edster951
Had a wonderful time there.

Only bad thing about it was that my wife lisa was not there to enjoy this.

I rang her up while while watching the sunset and told her I loved her and missed her. She cried........


Hey, knock it out....your making the rest of us guys who barely remember to call our wives at 3:00 am on a friday night cause we are too drunk to drive home, look bad.

While your at it stop all that progress your making, cause your making the rest of us look bad again.

Come on Ed, be a team player...