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Kohen_Gadol
08-26-2006, 10:44 PM
OK...most people realize that intravenous glutamine kicks butt and takes names but that oral L-Glutamine is ineffective unless you mega-dose like 30g at a sitting or more because of the human GI tract.

So what if there was a cool way to ingest like 5g of a Glutamine type product that would POTENTIALLY (a study, not a board log, would be needed to confirm this idea independently) give you many of the same effects of IV glutamine?

Would you buy it? How much would you pay for it?

BK

lbarber4
08-26-2006, 10:54 PM
If it's effective, then I would be interested in buying it. Just as long as it's cost effective, and actually works.

Coulaid
08-26-2006, 11:43 PM
$30-$40... I can't dip into my custom threads fund :)

deserusan
08-26-2006, 11:51 PM
I would buy it and love the fact that someone else can look at the studies regarding glutamine in a broader sense. I feel it has gotten a lot bad press here on the forum because most of the people against it don't understand it's impact in the medical world with regards to maintaining a positive nitrogen balance and tissue repair. If I was designing a glutamine supplement this is what I would make:

Magnesium Glycyl Glutamine- 7 g
l-luecine- 7g
l-valine- 3.5 g
l-isoluecine- 3.5g
Vinpocetine- 1 g
Beta Alanine- 2 g
Citrulline Malate- 3 g
Ketoisocaproic Acid Calcium
BPOV (Bis Picolinato Oxo Vanadium)

It would be geared towards endurance and would stack with any creatine product well.

Stonecoldtruth
08-26-2006, 11:55 PM
many of the same effects of IV glutamine


That'd be worth $40 a month :D

Stonecoldtruth
08-26-2006, 11:59 PM
I would buy it and love the fact that someone else can look at the studies regarding glutamine in a broader sense. I feel it has gotten a lot bad press here on the forum because most of the people against it don't understand it's impact in the medical world with regards to maintaining a positive nitrogen balance and tissue repair. .

I am going to completely concur here with you here Des, the Sacks and Roth studies alone show so many benefits from the nitrogen balance, tissue repair, immune system, protein metabolism, and so many other benefits that could directly carryover for fitness and general health supplementation.

SCT

CanadaBBOY
08-27-2006, 12:02 AM
Other:

I would, however I can't put a specific price on how much i'd be willing to pay because I honestly don't know exactly how the effects would be. I doubt anyone on the boards have tried IV glutamine, so no one can say how effective glutamine really is, and how much it's effects are worth. The studies show that it is very useful with medical applications but we'd have to see how close this oral option came to the IV option.

If it worked like you say, and the effects were very good for recovery/muscle sparing I think it would be worth it. In this regard though it would have to be competative to the popular BCAA and EAA option which is also supposed to help in those area's (as well as increasing muscle growth).

warbird00
08-27-2006, 12:07 AM
I would buy it and love the fact that someone else can look at the studies regarding glutamine in a broader sense. I feel it has gotten a lot bad press here on the forum because most of the people against it don't understand it's impact in the medical world with regards to maintaining a positive nitrogen balance and tissue repair. If I was designing a glutamine supplement this is what I would make:

Magnesium Glycyl Glutamine- 7 g
l-luecine- 7g
l-valine- 3.5 g
l-isoluecine- 3.5g
Vinpocetine- 1 g
Beta Alanine- 2 g
Citrulline Malate- 3 g
Ketoisocaproic Acid Calcium
BPOV (Bis Picolinato Oxo Vanadium)

It would be geared towards endurance and would stack with any creatine product well.

would that be called a glutamine product when its around only 1/4 glutamine tho??

deserusan
08-27-2006, 12:12 AM
would that be called a glutamine product when its around only 1/4 glutamine tho??

It would be geared for promoting recovery, muscular endurance, and maintaining a positive nitrogen balance during a workout. The short answer is yes but I feel to effectively market a new glutamine product it should be piggy-backed onto other products that are very useful. Plain glutamine is boring.

storm shadow
08-27-2006, 12:15 AM
It would be geared for promoting recovery, muscular endurance, and maintaining a positive nitrogen balance during a workout. The short answer is yes but I feel to effectively market a new glutamine product it should be piggy-backed onto other products that are very useful.Plain glutamine is boring.
ha, agreed

bodybuilder45
08-27-2006, 12:20 AM
definately has my interest. im the only vote right now at under $50/month but i absolutely love glutamine. i megadose it during workouts with my megadosed BCAA's. not entirely sure that the glutamine is doing anything but something in there definitely feels like its working and i dont plan on changing it unless its in a more available form.

hey BK, what do you think of the patented Magnesium Glycyl Glutamine? will your product be anything like it?

deserusan
08-27-2006, 12:50 AM
hey BK, what do you think of the patented Magnesium Glycyl Glutamine?

I'm pretty certain BK would want this form of glutamine. Here is why:

"By means of one or more of the above mechanisms, magnesium is essential to the building of maximum muscle mass and endurance. Strenuous physical activity and associated mental and physical stress can cause a decline in tissue magnesium levels as a result of hypermetabolic compensation and the increased elaboration of catecholamines, glucagon, and mineral corticoids. Magnesium administered in the form of inorganic salts to replenish reduced levels in the body, can cause serious side effects such as intestinal irritability, loose stools, or diarrhea. Because of this, many body builders or other athletes are magnesium deficient and sufficient levels of magnesium are not included in many prior art anabolic formulas. It is therefore essential that any magnesium administered is in a safe but effective bioavailable form. One such form which has been shown to be superior to all others is as an amino acid chelate.

There are certain amino acids that affect the positive balance of nitrogen in the building or synthesis of skeletal or muscular proteins. These function in the presence or absence of insulin but have a greater response in the presence of insulin. Glutamine, glycine and arginine are all anabolic and also all have well-defined metabolic behaviors that are distinct from their participation in protein synthesis and breakdown. According to Rennie et al., J Nutr. 124: 1503S-1508S (1994) it has been found that there is a strong relationship between the rate of muscle protein synthesis and intramuscular glutamine concentration. Rennie et al. state that there is little doubt that the phenomenon of an anabolic effect of glutamine in human and animal muscle exists, however, the nature of the mechanism is not evident. Glutamine or L-glutamine, not only has a positive effect on the nitrogen balance in protein, i.e. is anabolic, but also stimulates the accumulation of muscle glycogen in rats. It is suggested that any processes that interfere with the ability of muscle to accumulate glutamine will result in muscle wasting and therefore, the effects of disease and injury causing muscle wasting may include interference with the muscle glutamine transporter.

Young et al, J. Parenteral and Enteral Nutrition, 17: 422-427 (1993) states that glutamine has been shown to be clinically safe when administered as a supplemental nutrient and improves nitrogen balance. It is also known that glutamine is a precursor of the neurotransmitter .tau.-aminobutyric acid and can cross the blood-brain barrier. Glutamate, which is a product of glutamine metabolism, and vice versa, is the most abundant single amino acid within the central nervous system and also functions as a neurotransmitter. Because of this property, Young et al., have found that glutamine also possesses antidepressive properties.

According to Gore, et al., Arch. Surg. 129:1318-1323 (1994) catabolic hormones, such as cortisol, increases the efflux of glutamine resulting from an accelerated release of glutamine from the free intracellular glutamine pool that is then replenished from either increased endogenous protein breakdown or from de novo glutamine synthesis. This is further indication that increased cortisol has an adverse or catabolic affect on the nitrogen balance of muscle tissues and also of the need for a source of bioavailable glutamine.

To permit optimal muscle growth and maintenance, it is essential that a proper balance be maintained between endogenous anabolic steroids and cortisol such that these hormones are present in amounts sufficient to enable the various body processes to function normally while, at the same time, minimizing the adverse side effects caused by these same hormones. It is also necessary that adequate amounts of chromium and magnesium, in a bioavailable form, are present to regulate enzyme functions, cortisol levels, and optimize synthesis of proteins, glucose, and fat distribution."


This is from the US Patent 588553 (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsrchnum.htm&Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&r=1&l=50&f=G&d=PALL&s1=5888553.PN.&OS=PN/5888553&RS=PN/5888553) which Magnesium Glycyl Glutamine is covered under.

Joel
08-27-2006, 01:08 AM
My "other" vote is Im already gettting plenty in my protein powder IMO, not going to spend more money on more Glutamine

thirsty4chicken
08-27-2006, 04:08 AM
Other: Numerous studies have shown that glutamine supplementation has no significant effect on promoting muscle growth/preventing catabolism.

Deserusan: there's no way of making the glutamine go directly into the muscle. Amino acid transport is highly regulated; I doubt there will be a significant increase in intramuscular glutamine concentration following oral supplementation.

Bane
08-27-2006, 04:20 AM
No, because Glutamine is junk.
I.V. glutamine rules? Only if you are a burn victim, and yet again todays therapies consider the safety/efficiency innefective

user88812
08-27-2006, 05:36 AM
I think the best glutamine product is

German American Technologies L-Glutamine Peptides.

What's In It?
Supplement Facts:

Serving Size: 1 Teaspoon (5g)
Servings Per Container: 200

Amount Per Serving:

Calories: 20
Calories from Fat: 3
Total Fat: 0.3g
Total Carbohydrates: 1g
Sugars: 0g
Glutamine Peptide: 5g
Protein: 4g

ragnar1199
08-27-2006, 06:20 AM
If it was effective, I think I'd be willing to pay for it as much as I pay for the spiffy creatine blend products.

Amino89
08-27-2006, 06:33 AM
Do Leucine Peptides exist? That would be cool to do Glutamine/Leucine Peptide if they did.

BiggJohn
08-27-2006, 06:33 AM
Other:

I would, however I can't put a specific price on how much i'd be willing to pay because I honestly don't know exactly how the effects would be. I doubt anyone on the boards have tried IV glutamine, so no one can say how effective glutamine really is, and how much it's effects are worth. The studies show that it is very useful with medical applications but we'd have to see how close this oral option came to the IV option.

If it worked like you say, and the effects were very good for recovery/muscle sparing I think it would be worth it. In this regard though it would have to be competative to the popular BCAA and EAA option which is also supposed to help in those area's (as well as increasing muscle growth).

Bingo. My thoughts exactly.

TheUnlikelyToad
08-27-2006, 07:34 AM
So BK, are we talking about Alanyl-L-Glutamine?

That would surely make Deseuran and his Magnesium Glycyl Glutamine say Mommy. ;)

DRP7
08-27-2006, 07:37 AM
No, because Glutamine is junk.
I.V. glutamine rules? Only if you are a burn victim, and yet again todays therapies consider the safety/efficiency innefective

hey, Bane, you are back? finished army? or just on vacation? anyways, nice to see you again! your input is highly anticipated and appreciated.

very best regards

david

Kohen_Gadol
08-27-2006, 08:37 AM
I'm pretty certain BK would want this form of glutamine. Here is why:

"By means of one or more of the above mechanisms, magnesium is essential to the building of maximum muscle mass and endurance. Strenuous physical activity and associated mental and physical stress can cause a decline in tissue magnesium levels as a result of hypermetabolic compensation and the increased elaboration of catecholamines, glucagon, and mineral corticoids. Magnesium administered in the form of inorganic salts to replenish reduced levels in the body, can cause serious side effects such as intestinal irritability, loose stools, or diarrhea. Because of this, many body builders or other athletes are magnesium deficient and sufficient levels of magnesium are not included in many prior art anabolic formulas. It is therefore essential that any magnesium administered is in a safe but effective bioavailable form. One such form which has been shown to be superior to all others is as an amino acid chelate.

There are certain amino acids that affect the positive balance of nitrogen in the building or synthesis of skeletal or muscular proteins. These function in the presence or absence of insulin but have a greater response in the presence of insulin. Glutamine, glycine and arginine are all anabolic and also all have well-defined metabolic behaviors that are distinct from their participation in protein synthesis and breakdown. According to Rennie et al., J Nutr. 124: 1503S-1508S (1994) it has been found that there is a strong relationship between the rate of muscle protein synthesis and intramuscular glutamine concentration. Rennie et al. state that there is little doubt that the phenomenon of an anabolic effect of glutamine in human and animal muscle exists, however, the nature of the mechanism is not evident. Glutamine or L-glutamine, not only has a positive effect on the nitrogen balance in protein, i.e. is anabolic, but also stimulates the accumulation of muscle glycogen in rats. It is suggested that any processes that interfere with the ability of muscle to accumulate glutamine will result in muscle wasting and therefore, the effects of disease and injury causing muscle wasting may include interference with the muscle glutamine transporter.

Young et al, J. Parenteral and Enteral Nutrition, 17: 422-427 (1993) states that glutamine has been shown to be clinically safe when administered as a supplemental nutrient and improves nitrogen balance. It is also known that glutamine is a precursor of the neurotransmitter .tau.-aminobutyric acid and can cross the blood-brain barrier. Glutamate, which is a product of glutamine metabolism, and vice versa, is the most abundant single amino acid within the central nervous system and also functions as a neurotransmitter. Because of this property, Young et al., have found that glutamine also possesses antidepressive properties.

According to Gore, et al., Arch. Surg. 129:1318-1323 (1994) catabolic hormones, such as cortisol, increases the efflux of glutamine resulting from an accelerated release of glutamine from the free intracellular glutamine pool that is then replenished from either increased endogenous protein breakdown or from de novo glutamine synthesis. This is further indication that increased cortisol has an adverse or catabolic affect on the nitrogen balance of muscle tissues and also of the need for a source of bioavailable glutamine.

To permit optimal muscle growth and maintenance, it is essential that a proper balance be maintained between endogenous anabolic steroids and cortisol such that these hormones are present in amounts sufficient to enable the various body processes to function normally while, at the same time, minimizing the adverse side effects caused by these same hormones. It is also necessary that adequate amounts of chromium and magnesium, in a bioavailable form, are present to regulate enzyme functions, cortisol levels, and optimize synthesis of proteins, glucose, and fat distribution."


This is from the US Patent 588553 (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsrchnum.htm&Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&r=1&l=50&f=G&d=PALL&s1=5888553.PN.&OS=PN/5888553&RS=PN/5888553) which Magnesium Glycyl Glutamine is covered under.

No. Albion has the patent to this product (and it is a good product and Albion is a tip top company) but I have a "slicker" idea than an amino acid chelate. I've been playing with a variety of "salts" WRT the new Arginine product Gaspari will be launching soon called Plasmajet(tm) and I have noticed that some of the salts seem to "work longer" than others do. They directly have a pretty serious impact on bioavailability and half life proving to me that not all of them just get "cleaved off" in the stomach leaving a free form amino and an acid.

I would like to do a peptide but the issue is cost. There is no way this would be a $30-$40 product and look at the voting?!? I mean, to make it work would cost like $50+ or so. This tells me to skip that idea until the price of the technology comes down.

I think the overall effects, as others have mentioned, of IV glutamine, if AND ONLY IF, they could be partially or fully replicated in an oral form, would make a worthy supplement.

I've got an idea for it. After the Olympia I will run it by Rich and see when it can be beta'ed and if it works, maybe worked in. This would be something for the Arnold Classic timeline wise.

Thanks and keep on voting!

BK

Kohen_Gadol
08-27-2006, 08:39 AM
So BK, are we talking about Alanyl-L-Glutamine?

That would surely make Deseuran and his Magnesium Glycyl Glutamine say Mommy. ;)


I'm not going this route so I will throw people a teaster -

N-Acetyl-L-Glutamine might be worth a look :)

BK

Kohen_Gadol
08-27-2006, 08:47 AM
It would be geared for promoting recovery, muscular endurance, and maintaining a positive nitrogen balance during a workout. The short answer is yes but I feel to effectively market a new glutamine product it should be piggy-backed onto other products that are very useful. Plain glutamine is boring.


Repped.

BK

Anssi Manninen
08-27-2006, 08:52 AM
Do Leucine Peptides exist? That would be cool to do Glutamine/Leucine Peptide if they did.

One can make any peptides but the production cost is pretty damn high..

Kohen_Gadol
08-27-2006, 08:56 AM
Other: Numerous studies have shown that glutamine supplementation has no significant effect on promoting muscle growth/preventing catabolism.

Deserusan: there's no way of making the glutamine go directly into the muscle. Amino acid transport is highly regulated; I doubt there will be a significant increase in intramuscular glutamine concentration following oral supplementation.


Yes there is :) If you can get it by the intestinal mucosa and liver (which you can with this chelate) you can find a sneaky way to "force cram it" into muscles like any other amino acid - to a point. A small dose of this stuff caused a 600% rise in plasma glutamine concentrations for about an hour or a little more. I am looking to get a 1000% raise in plasma glutamine and sustain this for 3-4 hours at least. This would be a KILLER before bedtime powder/drink, especially if I can get 1000% for 2-3 hours and then a gradual taper off back down to baseline over 7-8 hours. You do a lot of repair/regrowth when you're asleep. This could be perfect for this time frame.

See this study:

http://www.infinity2.info/research/pdf/1910.pdf#search='albion%20and%20glutamine%20chelat e'


BK

Kohen_Gadol
08-27-2006, 08:59 AM
One can make any peptides but the production cost is pretty damn high..

You ain't kidding! Plus, you want to make a dipeptide or perhaps a small tripeptide at the biggest.

I'm thinking it will be easier to make an ionic salt using glutamic acid and something else. Glutamate and glutamine interchange in the body anyhow.

No more! I will not give anymore away until Rich gives me the thumbs up on this one.

Hey...Plasmajet, Halodrol Liquigels...you guys will have plenty to play with.

BK

Anssi Manninen
08-27-2006, 09:10 AM
http://www.infinity2.info/research/pdf/1910.pdf#search='albion%20and%20glutamine%20chelat e'


Is this stuff expensive? Btw, this study would have MUCH more impact if they would publish it in some peer-reviewed nutritional biochemistry journal. I think it could be published as "Brief Communications".

TheUnlikelyToad
08-27-2006, 09:32 AM
I'm not going this route so I will throw people a teaster -

N-Acetyl-L-Glutamine might be worth a look :)

BK

Sure is cheaper from prices I've seen.

But when factoring in tha amount of work, I don't know... good luck.

fitnfirm
08-27-2006, 09:37 AM
but I have a "slicker" idea than an amino acid chelate. I've been playing with a variety of "salts"
BK


Hmmmm interesting, wonder where you got that idea...............

Lonny
08-27-2006, 10:56 AM
I'm not going this route so I will throw people a teaster -

N-Acetyl-L-Glutamine might be worth a look :)

BK


You should have a look at NAG Bruce :D

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/san/nag.html

Anssi Manninen
08-27-2006, 10:59 AM
You should have a look at NAG Bruce :D

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/san/nag.html

Yep, NAG holds some promise. If you want me to feature some SAN product in MD, send me an email: sportsnutrition at luukku.com

dtrain13
08-27-2006, 11:37 AM
Do Leucine Peptides exist? That would be cool to do Glutamine/Leucine Peptide if they did.

Yes, but they are expensive. Glycyl-L-leucine and glycyl-DL-leucine are a couple of the di-peptides of leucine.

Amino89
08-27-2006, 11:42 AM
$17 a gram!

http://froogle.google.com/froogle?hl=en&q=Glycyl-L-leucine%20&sa=N&tab=wf

$50 a gram!!!!!

http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=Glycyl-DL-leucine&btnG=Search&hl=en

RBEliminator
08-27-2006, 12:12 PM
An affordable glutamine product that works as well as intravenous glutamine, I'd be interested. Alkilinity.. mm..mm :D

avian
08-27-2006, 02:39 PM
what about the ~aranochid acid~ product that you and gaspari were coming out with?

deserusan
08-27-2006, 03:32 PM
You should have a look at NAG Bruce :D


Here is a NAG grab-ass opportunity. From what I can tell it appears since N-acetyl-glutamine is absorbed at a lower rate it can cause a broader window in which plasma glutamine levels are raised?

"We speculate that N-acetyl-glutamine, since it is absorbed more slowly than free glutamine, and hence remains longer in the intestinal lumen than free glutamine, is potentially more available than free glutamine for use by enterocytes and the splanchnic bed, especially in the lower small intestine. Boza et al.[9.] reported similar observations in a study with protein-bound glutamine in human volunteers. Our research group has reported a higher preventive effect of N-acetyl--glutamine versus. glutamine on intestinal dysfunction induced by malnutrition in pigs.[38.]"

In conclusion, N-acetyl--glutamine appears to be a good candidate for glutamine fortification of enteral nutrition formulas because: (1) More than 75% of N-acetyl--glutamine was digested and absorbed from the intestinal lumen; (2) N-acetyl--glutamine was efficiently deacetylated in the intestinal mucosa, releasing equal glutamine equivalent (glutamine+glutamic acid); (3) glutamine released from N-acetyl--glutamine behaved similarly to free glutamine in the portal blood, preventing the drop in portal glutamine level seen in control animals."

Arnaud A, Ramirez M, Baxter JH, Angulo AJ. Absorption of enterally administered N-acetyl-l-glutamine versus glutamine in pigs. Clin Nutr. 2004 Dec;23(6):1303-12.

Lastly, to all the glutamine naysayers here is a good graphical representation of what effect glutamine has on gene expression which is a little bit more involved than just saying it has no direct impact on protein synthesis which is what everyone loves to scream in their anti-glutamine diatribe. Obviously there is a much bigger picture here.


http://images5.pictiger.com/thumbs/b7/5a2d7e2f16fe4edbdb59bbfdb15b28b7.th.jpgClick to make bigger (http://server5.pictiger.com/img/527099/picture-hosting/nfig-001.php)

"Evidence is presented herein that glutamine is involved in many processes vital to cell function and integrity. The molecular mechanisms of glutamine action remain to be elucidated but undoubtedly involve changes in gene and protein expression, protein activity, and changes in intracellular metabolite concentrations. This is best illustrated by recent published and unpublished studies by some of the authors of this review who assessed the effect of glutamine on pancreatic -cell metabolism and function. Glutamine metabolism resulted in the generation of key stimulus secretion coupling factors including glutamate and glutathione, which indirectly stimulate ATP production and enhance insulin secretion (Brennan et al., [2003]). Glutamine additionally differentially regulated the expression of genes involved in the regulation of insulin secretion including ion-channels, metabolic enzymes, and protein kinases and phosphatases. Thus, glutamine may have both acute and chronic effects on cell metabolism and function. A note of caution should be considered, however, when interpreting the described results. as with most of the cited in vitro studies very high concentrations of L-glutamine were used in cell incubations or culture. Concentrations of L-glutamine added to cell incubations generally vary between 2 and 10 mM, concentrations well in excess of physiological L-glutamine (0.7 mM) but in vitro the higher concentrations will result in optimal glutamine transport into target cells.

Therapeutically the parenteral or enteral administration of glutamine has been recommended for critically ill patients where it is known to have beneficial effects on recovery. However, this amino acid and protein hydrolyzates enriched with glutamine have been widely used by healthy individuals, in particular by athletes, to maintain immune function. Glutamine regulates the synthesis and activation of important proteins including those of the mesangial ECM, a key element in the development of glomerulosclerosis. Thus although glutamine supplementation brings about clear benefits in many situations, problematic adverse effects of the use of high concentrations cannot be fully ruled out."

Curi R, Lagranha CJ, Doi SQ, Sellitti DF, Procopio J, Pithon-Curi TC, Corless M, Newsholme P. Molecular mechanisms of glutamine action. J Cell Physiol. 2005 Aug;204(2):392-401.


***I guess I should mention that these studies and graphs were not provided to me by MT :)***

bodybuilder45
08-27-2006, 10:38 PM
very nice info des. damn, i tried to rep you earlier in this thread and was unable to so i repped some other posts and i still cant hit you. oh well, who cares about reputation. again, good find with the study.

Joel
08-28-2006, 02:36 AM
No, because Glutamine is junk.
I.V. glutamine rules? Only if you are a burn victim, and yet again todays therapies consider the safety/efficiency innefective

Bane WB !!!

An Inconvenient Bro
08-28-2006, 02:15 PM
Glutamine is good stuff, even if only used to alter the PRAL score. Most Glutamine haters ignore this

deserusan
08-28-2006, 02:19 PM
Glutamine is good stuff, even if only used to alter the PRAL score. Most Glutamine haters ignore this

Very good point. For you guys that don't know PRAL is potential renal acid load. John Berardi explains this very well here:

"Why Acid Is Bad

Every cell of the body functions optimally within a certain pH range (pH is a measure of the acidity or alkalinity of the body). In different cells, this optimal range is different, however, the net pH of the body has to remain tightly regulated. One common problem with most industrialized societies is that our diets produce what's called a "low grade chronic metabolic acidosis." In other words, the PRAL of our diets is high and this means that we're chronically in a state of high acidity. While there are a number of disease states that induce severe metabolic acidosis, we're talking a sub-clinical rise in acidity here. Therefore, your doc probably won't notice the problem. But that doesn't mean that you're in the clear. Your cells will recognize the problem.

So what's wrong with this low-grade chronic metabolic acidosis? Well, since the body must, at all costs, operate at a stable pH, any dietary acid load has to be neutralized by one of a number of homeostatic base-producing mechanisms. So, although the pH of the body is maintained and your doctor visits turn out fine, many cells of the body will suffer. Here are some of the most severe consequences of your body's attempt to maintain a constant pH in the face of an acidic environment:

Hypercalciuria (high concentrations of calcium in the urine). Since calcium is a strong base and bone contains the body's largest calcium store, metabolic acidosis causes a release in calcium from bone. As a result, osteoclastic (bone degrading) activity increases and osteoblastic (bone building) activity decreases. The net result of these changes is that bone is lost in order to neutralize the acidic environment of the body. The calcium that was stored in the bone is then lost in the urine along with the acid it was mobilized to neutralize. This creates a negative calcium balance (more calcium is lost from the body than is consumed) and bones get weak. (2,3,4,6)

Negative nitrogen balance (high concentrations of nitrogen in urine). Glutamine is responsible for binding hydrogen ions to form ammonium. Since hydrogen ions are acidic, glutamine acts much like calcium to neutralize the body's acidosis. Since skeletal muscle contains the body's largest glutamine store, metabolic acidosis causes muscle breakdown to liberate glutamine from the muscle. The amino acids from this muscle breakdown are then excreted, causing a net loss of muscle protein. (2,7)

In addition to bone and muscle loss, other consequences of acidosis include:

Decreased IGF1 activity (4)
GH resistance (4)
Mild hypothyroidism (4)
Hypercortisolemia (4,5)

Interestingly, low-grade metabolic acidosis seems to worsen with age. Many have speculated that this is due to an age-related decline in kidney function (and acid excretion). Of course, osteoporosis and muscle wasting are unfortunate consequences of aging. While it's too early to tell, perhaps some of the bone and muscle loss evident as individuals get older is a result of diet-induced acidosis. This means that employing a few simple acid-base strategies may help slow osteoporosis and sarcopoenia.

2) Frassetto et al, J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 82: 254-259, 1997.
3) New, Proc Nutr Soc. 61(2): 151-164, 2002.
4) Wiederkehr et al, Swiss Med Wkly. 10:127-132, 2001.
6) Buclin et al, Osteoporos Int. 12: 493-499, 2001.
7) Welbourne, et al. JPEN. 18(3): 243-7, 1994.
"

An Inconvenient Bro
08-28-2006, 02:42 PM
Very good point. For you guys that don't know PRAL is potential renal acid load. "
I really like glutamine, and use it a lot. The problem with the boards that I've seen over time is the haters come out just to have something to hate. They will latch onto anything and take it to the N'th degree. This is why I am spending a lot less time on the boards and more time working on my company and with athletes & coaches who haven't succumbed to the plethora of hating and broscience.

user25891
08-28-2006, 02:44 PM
I really like glutamine, and use it a lot. The problem with the boards that I've seen over time is the haters come out just to have something to hate. They will latch onto anything and take it to the N'th degree. This is why I am spending a lot less time on the boards and more time working on my company and with athletes & coaches who haven't succumbed to the plethora of hating and broscience.

Brotelligence is the yardstick of a man, Customizer! LOL

deserusan
08-28-2006, 04:17 PM
broscience.

Nice....when I first joined the forum there was a lot of this. For the most part things are changing for the better.

bodybuilder45
08-28-2006, 06:49 PM
i like this thread cause im a huge advocate of glutamine and yes, i use it for alkilinity purposes as well. i really feel this has perfected my diet. all you haters, STAY OUT!!! :D jk, but i would love it if gaspari brought this out

Bane
08-29-2006, 05:03 AM
hey, Bane, you are back? finished army? or just on vacation? anyways, nice to see you again! your input is highly anticipated and appreciated.

very best regards

david
Have 8 months of full service yet. I Just get some days off now and then. I try to keep in touch as much as possible, but that's not much :(

Bane
08-29-2006, 09:38 AM
You can also start drinking lots of soda(sodium bicarbonate) if you are that worried about metabolic acidosis, plus of course drinking lots of water. Clinically tested and much cheaper than Glut.

An Inconvenient Bro
08-29-2006, 10:13 AM
You can also start drinking lots of soda(sodium bicarbonate) if you are that worried about metabolic acidosis, plus of course drinking lots of water. Clinically tested and much cheaper than Glut.
you can but it makes a mess of your stomach

Mr. Aries
08-29-2006, 11:13 AM
i have a big ass bag of GEE sitting in my shelf... I might make use of it.. Too bad the powder is sour enough to turn sugar cane water into lemonade. :(

Bane
08-30-2006, 11:26 AM
you can but it makes a mess of your stomach

Tastes much less ****ty than Glutamine though, plus it is gazillion times cheaper

An Inconvenient Bro
08-30-2006, 01:29 PM
Tastes much less ****ty than Glutamine though, plus it is gazillion times cheaper
well a lot of vegetables will alter PRAL favorably too but how many people do you think really do that consistently?

Bane
08-31-2006, 12:02 AM
well a lot of vegetables will alter PRAL favorably too but how many people do you think really do that consistently?

However I know lotsa people who drink Tuborg Soda after food to ease their stomachs religiously.
You really think there'd be 100s of people who'd get Glut life-long to keep their renal acidity on check?

Joel
08-31-2006, 02:01 AM
Bane what is life in the Greek Army like? What kind of training are you doing?

An Inconvenient Bro
08-31-2006, 08:38 AM
You really think there'd be 100s of people who'd get Glut life-long to keep their renal acidity on check?
I don't know what other people eat.

All I am saying is glutamine is not worthless as many critics say. It has a function, whether you personally think that function is cost effective is a personal matter, but not worthless

TheUnlikelyToad
08-31-2006, 08:50 AM
So one is to assume if we cannot agree on which form of Glutamine is best, one might try boatloads of tha cheap more traditional stuff to promote anabolism through PRAL?