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View Full Version : Test Boosters, Androgens and the Negative Feedback Loop; Some Questions to Ask!



HalleluYAH
07-17-2006, 10:34 AM
This is a rather new topic for me, as I am NOT a proponent of androgens, but I wanted to start this topic as I believe many are not aware of the potential side effects of taking such supplements. I know many of you have had success raising test levels and have consequently made great gains, but for those who are not aware; here goes nothing...

The production of testosterone in the body is regulated by a negative feedback loop, wherein the amount of testosterone in our system regulates its own concentration. When the concentration of test rises to above desired levels, a series of steps is taken within our body to cause the concentration to fall...

Questions to ask prior to taking any test boosters/androgenic supplements:

1) What step do you think the body will take to cause test concentrations to fall?
2) Will taking a test booster or androgenic supplement can severely slow down testosterone production altogether?
3) Will you need to supplement with PCT and/or an estrogen control supplement post cycle?

Here is a write up for a more detailed explination (taken from link below): http://loudoun.nv.cc.va.us/vetonline/vet111/endocrinology/endocrinless.htm

Hormonal regulation: The negative feedback loop
To understand the functioning of the endocrine system it is important to understand the principles of a negative feedback loop. This system or "loop" maintains the proper levels of hormones in the body. In the negative feedback loop the output and input levels of the hormone and substance secreted are inversely related.

A simple one step feedback loop

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e114/HalleluYAH/endocrinless-1.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>

As output of substance A increases the stimulus to produce more (of A) decreases. So as the desired level of A is reached the organ shuts off production of A. Hormone A levels "feedsback" a signal to stop secretion.

A complex two step feedback loop.

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e114/HalleluYAH/endocrinless.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>

This type of loop involves two glands (or organs) and two hormones.
1) Gland "a" secretes hormone A.
2) Hormone A stimulates gland "b" to secrete hormone B.
3) When hormone B is at the proper level it "feedbacks" to gland "a" and signals it to stop production of hormone A.
When hormone A is stopped then the stimulus for hormone B secretion is stopped and the level of hormone B drops.
At this point the body is "in balance" for awhile, but soon the body will need more hormone "b" and the loop will begin again. There are thousands of feedback loops working in the body at all times to maintain homeostasis.

CHUCK DIESEL
07-17-2006, 10:46 AM
Thats pretty much it. One of the substances that decreases LH production is testosterone. Thats a natural feedback loop. That doesnt mean it cannot be "worked around." If it couldnt be worked around, no nat. test boosters would ever show an increase in testosterone from user hormone test.

Its more complicated than A (LH) increases B (test) production but B (test) decreases A (LH).

Its the same with the neg. feedback loop from consuming less calories a day is burning less calories a day (slower metabolism). But if you consume less calories a day and ephedrine/caffeine, you can avoid this loop back (reduced BMR) to a degree.

CHUCK DIESEL
07-17-2006, 10:53 AM
Here is a better chart for you:

<img src="http://web.mit.edu/hudson/www/images/sexhormonecycle.gif" border="0">

pist
07-17-2006, 10:58 AM
I think this is why a lot of the guys who have no problem with it run test alongside harsh compounds to keep their test levels at least close to normal if not at a supraphysiological level during pct... and to maybe alleviate some sides as well (maybe like low libido with SD).

adoniscomplex
07-17-2006, 02:48 PM
bump
this is a good topic , i would love to see others weigh in on it

CHUCK DIESEL
07-17-2006, 02:56 PM
I think this is why a lot of the guys who have no problem with it run test alongside harsh compounds to keep their test levels at least close to normal if not at a supraphysiological level during pct... and to maybe alleviate some sides as well (maybe like low libido with SD).

probably not, since increasing test doesnt increase libido, increasing LH increases libido.

Skigazzi
07-17-2006, 03:49 PM
There is nothing that can beat the HPTA into making more test over the long haul. In 'short' spurts (weeks?), we can free up a little extra test, or try to boost LH etc, but over the long term(months?), its a losing battle.

As the male ages, its a physiological effect of aging to produce less T, its not that the body says 'Ok, im getting old, time to turn it down', there is actually a reduction in responsiveness of the leydig cells in the testes that causes this, essentially they start to wear out. In turn, the body naturally produces MORE LH, it tries to keep T up, but unfortunately, as we age, our 'boys' get less and less responsive. To make matters worse, SHBG increases, making less T available. If we try to free this T, the body sees it as an increase in T, and will reduce LH, reducing T.

To your questions Id say :
1) LH will be dropped, theres blood work to support this on this site.
2) Id say, maybe, but not possible. I dont think anyone has done bloodwork 1-2-3-4 etc weeks after using a T-booster. If LH drops, which has been seen, upon stopping the supplement, there should be some amount of suppression, even if its slight.
3) Doubtful, but perhaps if someone used an effective T-booster (herbal, not an AI/ATD) for a year straight (this is hypothetical obviously), there might be a need for it, but short of that, I doubt the HPTA is really that suppressed. One of the big issues with roids is shrinkage, one would need to use a natural T booster for a LONG time to shink em.

Kohen_Gadol
07-17-2006, 04:33 PM
Here is a better chart for you:

<img src="http://web.mit.edu/hudson/www/images/sexhormonecycle.gif" border="0">


Excellent post, Chuck.


BK

CHUCK DIESEL
07-17-2006, 04:33 PM
^^^

I think he is saying/asking that there is no way possible to increase test levels with a supplement. I think he is implying or thinks the loop back completely compensates for the increase to render the supplement useless.

Kohen_Gadol
07-17-2006, 04:34 PM
There is nothing that can beat the HPTA into making more test over the long haul.

I respectfully disagree. I think an MD-endocrinologist would also disagree.

A better statement might be "there is no supplement that can beat the
HPTA into making more test over the long haul."

Not being a dick - just honest.

BK

Kohen_Gadol
07-17-2006, 04:37 PM
^^^

I think he is saying/asking that there is no way possible to increase test levels with a supplement. I think he is implying or thinks the loop back completely compensates for the increase to render the supplement useless.


Maybe. I would think in the case of a certain herbal product (which I
like a lot for short term use) that knocks test off SHBG that yeah,
that excess test is going to get compensated for.

I think that something that works higher up the food chain might
take a lot longer to depress the HPTA.

But I would concur that generally speaking, there is not supplement that
can keep test levels 'way high' for like a year.

Although there will be a nice study on ATD that has guys on it for
90-120 days so we'll see how that pans out.


BK

Kohen_Gadol
07-17-2006, 04:39 PM
probably not, since increasing test doesnt increase libido, increasing LH increases libido.

Uhm...I don't concur. Any gearhead on 1/2 a gram of cyp is going
to have a libido sky high - probably from the DHT aspect of it and not
the test - I have a theory that DHT is responsible for most of tests "positive"
effects.

BK

bredfan
07-17-2006, 05:08 PM
Maybe. I would think in the case of a certain herbal product (which I
like a lot for short term use) that knocks test off SHBG that yeah,
that excess test is going to get compensated for.


So then would there be any point to supplementing with that herbal product?

CHUCK DIESEL
07-17-2006, 06:58 PM
Uhm...I don't concur. Any gearhead on 1/2 a gram of cyp is going
to have a libido sky high - probably from the DHT aspect of it and not
the test - I have a theory that DHT is responsible for most of tests "positive"
effects.

BK


I was talking more about increasing nat. test levels.

CHUCK DIESEL
07-17-2006, 07:01 PM
So then would there be any point to supplementing with that herbal product?

Yes because supplements are intended for short to medium term use.

Even supplementing with an E/C stack, you cant expect ur metabolism to stay elevated when you come off, and the same with protein, you stop taking it, you will lose the benifits.

CHUCK DIESEL
07-17-2006, 07:02 PM
I think some consumers want test boosters nat and sythetic to increase their test levels perm. for the rest of their life even if they stop using the product(s).

HalleluYAH
07-17-2006, 07:14 PM
^^^

I think he is saying/asking that there is no way possible to increase test levels with a supplement. I think he is implying or thinks the loop back completely compensates for the increase to render the supplement useless.
Nah. The point for thsi thread, aside from furthering my own education on the subject, was to raise some questions for those considering a test booster/androgenic supplement.

I have zero doubt that these supps can increase free test levels, but along with this increase comes potential negative side effects, especially post cycle. The short term increase in test can lead to significant gains, but they generally do not last. I believe the neg feedback loop has plenty to do with this. Why anyoine would want to raise free test, make quick gains, and then lose most of the gains post cycle (along with their hair; during the cycle there is also the rapid conversion of free test to DHT which must be considered. ) is beyond me. Perhaps they were not aware of the potential sides?

On another personal note: I am a big proponent of ergogenic aids such as creatine, citrulline malate etc. I am also a huge proponent of supps that can increase net protien synthesis such as Leucine and other EAAs. So, in short, use an ergogenic to increase workout intensity to create microtears then supplement with EAAs, Leucine, whey, casien, protein etc. to stay in a constant positive nitrogen balance, stimulate protien synthesis and muscle hypertrophy will occur. It takes work to look good and keep it. Supplements help, I just don't believe androgens are necessary. My .02/cents.

Skigazzi
07-17-2006, 07:31 PM
I respectfully disagree. I think an MD-endocrinologist would also disagree.

A better statement might be "there is no supplement that can beat the
HPTA into making more test over the long haul."

Not being a dick - just honest.

BK

No worries BK, I was implying exactly that, that no supplement can beat the HPTA long term, im sure that there are some MDs that have the mind and means to do this.

MuZI
07-17-2006, 08:28 PM
Why anyoine would want to raise free test, make quick gains, and then lose most of the gains post cycle (along with their hair; during the cycle there is also the rapid conversion of free test to DHT which must be considered. ) is beyond me. Perhaps they were not aware of the potential sides?

I cry about this every night! I know exactly what you mean!

:D

But seriously... most people aren't educated on such issues and rate supplements on how anabolic they are rather than how healthy.

Carmen0857
07-17-2006, 09:53 PM
Maybe. I would think in the case of a certain herbal product (which I
like a lot for short term use) that knocks test off SHBG that yeah,
that excess test is going to get compensated for.


One compensation will come in the form of increased Estrogen, which is where an A.I. coems into play, I beleive this is what makes the NHA stack very effective.

There are also other compensations taht will occur, the more compensations a product or "stack" addresses, the more effectiv it will be.

knightowl
07-17-2006, 11:28 PM
Bump

HalleluYAH
07-18-2006, 05:31 AM
But seriously... most people aren't educated on such issues and rate supplements on how anabolic they are rather than how healthy.
;)

Segansational
07-18-2006, 07:05 AM
The short term increase in test can lead to significant gains, but they generally do not last. I believe the neg feedback loop has plenty to do with this. Why anyoine would want to raise free test, make quick gains, and then lose most of the gains post cycle (along with their hair; during the cycle there is also the rapid conversion of free test to DHT which must be considered. ) is beyond me. Perhaps they were not aware of the potential sides?


So, you're saying that an increase by a test booster would provide gains while on the supplement from strength inc./mass gains due to inc. test levels, but then afterwards the user would lose their gains due to a dec. in test levels and inc. estrogen output and so forth. What about the idea of slowly decreasing doses of the test booster over an extended period of time? Would that possibly negate the sides by doing a gradual versus a sudden change back to the normal balance?

HalleluYAH
07-18-2006, 07:12 AM
So, you're saying that an increase by a test booster would provide gains while on the supplement from strength inc./mass gains due to inc. test levels, but then afterwards the user would lose their gains due to a dec. in test levels and inc. estrogen output and so forth.
That's my thinking.


What about the idea of slowly decreasing doses of the test booster over an extended period of time? Would that possibly negate the sides by doing a gradual versus a sudden change back to the normal balance?
Excellent questions. Anyone?

Skigazzi
07-18-2006, 07:43 AM
That's my thinking.

Excellent questions. Anyone?

I dont think all gains from anything that increases anabolic / androgenic levels of the body can be completely kept, no matter how subtle the changes, or however carefully the body is eased from high T levels to normal T levels. (even with access to a 'pharmacy' of drugs, even pro's lose size quickly when off)

My hypothesis is:
If a person goes from a test level of 300 to 800, they will be able to support extra muscle mass that a person with very high T is able to, but if a person goes from 800, to 300, they will lose mass. Maybe some can be kept for a long period, but the reduction in ability to build / repair will eventually reset the body. Using a Tbooster for 30 days just makes this timeline very compressed with much smaller fluctuations, versus a 16 week Test-E cycle.

I do think one can maintain some gains, dont get me wrong, through eating enough calories the new muscle demands, and maybe through protein synthesis aids like Leucine added to the diet, these things can help. But I also think that these things will help build muscle without ever using a Tbooster.

I just rambled myself into an interesting question...what would you think would lead to more protein synthesis (a.k.a., muscle mass),
1) 30 days on a leading Tbooster followed by 30 days 'off' with no dietary changes,
2) 60 days of adding 3 20g protein shakes thoughout the day, with 5-10g leucine added to each one (NO use of a T booster in #2)?

Im leaning towards the increase in protein / leucine yielding better results, without touching the HPTA.

(I typed this post over the course of an hour, with multiple little office meetings during it...sorry if it reads a little choppy, but each time I came back to it I had new thoughts)

HalleluYAH
07-18-2006, 08:02 AM
I dont think all gains from anything that increases anabolic / androgenic levels of the body can be completely kept, no matter how subtle the changes, or however carefully the body is eased from high T levels to normal T levels. (even with access to a 'pharmacy' of drugs, even pro's lose size quickly when off)

My hypothesis is:
If a person goes from a test level of 300 to 800, they will be able to support extra muscle mass that a person with very high T is able to, but if a person goes from 800, to 300, they will lose mass. Maybe some can be kept for a long period, but the reduction in ability to build / repair will eventually reset the body. Using a Tbooster for 30 days just makes this timeline very compressed with much smaller fluctuations, versus a 16 week Test-E cycle.

I do think one can maintain some gains, dont get me wrong, through eating enough calories the new muscle demands, and maybe through protein synthesis aids like Leucine added to the diet, these things can help. But I also think that these things will help build muscle without ever using a Tbooster.

I just rambled myself into an interesting question...what would you think would lead to more protein synthesis (a.k.a., muscle mass),
1) 30 days on a leading Tbooster followed by 30 days 'off' with no dietary changes,
2) 60 days of adding 3 20g protein shakes thoughout the day, with 5-10g leucine added to each one (NO use of a T booster in #2)?

Im leaning towards the increase in protein / leucine yielding better results, without touching the HPTA.

(I typed this post over the course of an hour, with multiple little office meetings during it...sorry if it reads a little choppy, but each time I came back to it I had new thoughts)
^^^ One of the best posts I have had the pleasure to read in a long while. 100% Agreed on all points!

Cyrus317
07-18-2006, 08:33 AM
Here is a better chart for you:

<img src="http://web.mit.edu/hudson/www/images/sexhormonecycle.gif" border="0">

I don't like this diagram; it oversimplifies the issue. Males don't have ovaries. Males produce estrogen through the body's aromatization of testosterone in estrogen and progesterone.

Skigazzi
07-18-2006, 09:43 AM
I don't like this diagram; it oversimplifies the issue. Males don't have ovaries. Males produce estrogen through the body's aromatization of testosterone in estrogen and progesterone.

Heres one that doesnt have Ovaries :D

<img src="http://www.malecontraceptives.org/methods/images/hpta.gif">

bredfan
07-18-2006, 09:56 AM
Oh. Jeez. I just noticed that the thread starter is a rep for a company that doesn't sell Test Boosters.

However, the science provided still makes sense regardless of who posted it. I just sometimes question the motives of such posts, and therfore the content.

Skigazzi, it's mainly your responses that intrigue me. You guys sell a test booster (AI). Yet your responses suggest that you don't entirely endorse them?

Very interesting thread indeed.

Skigazzi
07-18-2006, 10:14 AM
Skigazzi, it's mainly your responses that intrigue me. You guys sell a test booster (AI). Yet your responses suggest that you don't entirely endorse them?

You can search my post history and find that Im definitely not on the 'Pro' side for herbal test boosters at all, I wont hide that fact.

Regarding AI's, there are studies showing they work in humans (6-OXO), and there have been plently of bloodwork posts on ATD boosting test (with some debate on metabolites of ATD inflating the results some). Reducing estrogen WILL result in an increase in T, its the physical response the body makes.

I do think the AI's available boost test, and I do think that SOME of the gains can be maintained as long as one makes sure to add the calories the muscle gained while using them requires (100 calories per day per lb is a good target).

I also do think that ATD is most useful in PCT if used in sane dosages as well (50/50/25/25/25eod) for mild cycles, and on 'cuts' to help maintain T-levels despite a caloric deficit.

Hopefully that clears up my opinion a bit. :)

bredfan
07-18-2006, 10:25 AM
You can search my post history and find that Im definitely not on the 'Pro' side for herbal test boosters at all, I wont hide that fact.

Regarding AI's, there are studies showing they work in humans (6-OXO), and there have been plently of bloodwork posts on ATD boosting test (with some debate on metabolites of ATD inflating the results some). Reducing estrogen WILL result in an increase in T, its the physical response the body makes.

I do think the AI's available boost test, and I do think that SOME of the gains can be maintained as long as one makes sure to add the calories the muscle gained while using them requires (100 calories per day per lb is a good target).

I also do think that ATD is most useful in PCT if used in sane dosages as well (50/50/25/25/25eod) for mild cycles, and on 'cuts' to help maintain T-levels despite a caloric deficit.

Hopefully that clears up my opinion a bit. :)


Yes it does. I am particualrly impressed with your honesty.

What's your opinion on the potential sides, such as hairloss? E rebound? Gyno? etc...Of course these are q's for use as strictly a test booster and not as PCT.

HalleluYAH
07-18-2006, 10:52 AM
Oh. Jeez. I just noticed that the thread starter is a rep for a company that doesn't sell Test Boosters.

What does that have to do with anything? If Omega sold a test booster I would either quit repping for them, or continue posting my opinion on such products. Besides, Matt (Omega's owner) sells plenty of test boosters on another site, so I am not sure what your point is.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with some of the other supplement science and carb cycing threads I have started, this is something I enjoy. I could not care less how many bottles of test boosters other companies sell, save the fact that I feel they are hazardous and not for everyone; hence this thread being started...


SizeOn Study from ISSN Conference:
http://www.forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=819775
Leukic and the 'KIC' Sensation; What's it all about?
http://www.forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=833165
Arachidonic Acid: Affect on Colon Cancer Risk:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=806085
TTA Supplementation
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=801613
Baylor University Study On MethoxyIsoflavone/Ecdysterone:
http://www.forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=818751
pre, during & post WO AA/CHO/PRO regimen:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=754887
EAA or BCAA? A Researched Position Statement:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=739730
Beta-Alanine (Carnosine):
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=556710
Arachodonic Acid vs. EPA:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=671453
Studies on HMB:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=649652
Soy's effects on hormones:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=698242
Amino Acid Supplementation; New Study:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=710761
Timing of Amino Acid-Carbohydrate Ingestion:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=718025
Fast Eccentric Lowering... Stimulating Muscle Hypertrophy:
http://www.forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=809727
Carb-Cycling Thread (38,000 hits):
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=457715
Carb Cycling 101:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=706139
Effects of ATP Supplementation:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=551439
Arginine Increases IGF-1:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=557604
Fiber 101
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=795627

CHUCK DIESEL
07-18-2006, 10:58 AM
I don't like this diagram; it oversimplifies the issue. Males don't have ovaries. Males produce estrogen through the body's aromatization of testosterone in estrogen and progesterone.

Thats when you dont look at the picture of the ovaries. It is a diagram that shows how the loop back occurs. Its not a diagram on how estrogen is produced, its a loop back diagram.

Skigazzi
07-18-2006, 10:59 AM
Yes it does. I am particualrly impressed with your honesty.

What's your opinion on the potential sides, such as hairloss? E rebound? Gyno? etc...Of course these are q's for use as strictly a test booster and not as PCT.

I dont think there is much potential for sides when using ATD (or any AI) just as a T booster for 4 weeks.

Hairloss is mainly genetic IMHO, if you are at risk, it will slightly raise the risk, if you arent at risk, Id heavily doubt it would cause any.

I think the E-rebound thing was blown out of proportion, the number of cases vs. the number of users makes it look like a less than %1 chance when being used after a hormone, so stand-alone, its not a real threat.

I also think some of the dosages are too high for just being used as a t-booster (again, i said this in posts from a while back, so im not gonna change it). I really think that 4 weeks using 25mg per day would be 90% as effective as using 50mg a day, with less joint discomfort (no estrogen dries joints, I discovered this the hard way, I misread the label on Scifit Es3, it has 150mg per serving, I though it had 50...and too 2 a day...talk about rickety knees..but no rebound issues even at that dose).

This is just my thoughts from personal experience, and reading alotta feedback.

CHUCK DIESEL
07-18-2006, 11:01 AM
I have zero doubt that these supps can increase free test levels, but along with this increase comes potential negative side effects, especially post cycle. The short term increase in test can lead to significant gains, but they generally do not last. I believe the neg feedback loop has plenty to do with this. .

Where did you get this post nat. test booster side effect theory? Im talking nat. test booster like DIESEL TEST, blue up, T-bomb 2, not ATD containing products.

The neg. feedback loop doesnt occur when you are done with the test booster, it would occur as soon as you start responding to the test booster if it is to occur.

CHUCK DIESEL
07-18-2006, 11:05 AM
I think you are confusing being "shut down" with a neg. feedback loop.

HalleluYAH
07-18-2006, 11:05 AM
Where did you get this post nat. test booster side effect theory? Im talking nat. test booster like DIESEL TEST, blue up, T-bomb 2, not ATD containing products.

The neg. feedback loop doesnt occur when you are done with the test booster, it would occur as soon as you start responding to the test booster if it is to occur.
exactly, and when your cycle is done, your body has stopped producing test on it's own. then your testosterone to estrogen ratio will be imbalanced which is where gyno comes in, no?

CHUCK DIESEL
07-18-2006, 11:13 AM
exactly, and when your cycle is done, your body has stopped producing test on it's own. then your testosterone to estrogen ratio will be imbalanced which is where gyno comes in, no?

no

When you use a nat. test booster that is effective. Whats going to happen is your going to increase LH output and/or DHEA production and/or reduce SHBG, and/or reduce binding of test to SHBG.

During this process you dont stop producing your own anything. Take UT extract stardardized for that ingredient that binds to SHBG. Users show increases in free test, but decreases in total test. Thats because a neg. feedback loop is decreasing test production by either decreasing DHEA or LH. When you stop the product the neg. feedback loop stops.

Gyno would come from excess DHT/estrogen (one of the other I dont deal to much with gyno issues). Thats something that happens to people who dont use test boosters, ATD, steroids. You can be pre-disposed for gyno. but gyno isnt a neg. feedback loop, its gyno. You got all that mixed up.

edit: Are all these questions some trick to learn about test boosters so Omega can come out with one? You got alot of questions that can be answered by learning about the endocrine system.

HalleluYAH
07-18-2006, 11:19 AM
no

When you use a nat. test booster that is effective. Whats going to happen is your going to increase LH output and/or DHEA production and/or reduce SHBG, and/or reduce binding of test to SHBG.

During this process you dont stop producing your on anything. Take UT extract stardardized for that ingredient that binds to SHBG. Users show increases in free test, but decreases in total test. Thats because a neg. feedback loop is decreasing test production by either decreasing DHEA or LH. When you stop the product the neg. feedback loop stops.

Gyno would come from excess DHT/estrogen (one of the other I dont deal to much with gyno issues). Thats something that happens to people who dont use test boosters, ATD, steroids. You can be pre-disposed for gyno. but gyno isnt a neg. feedback loop, its gyno. You got all that mixed up.
Gyno is caused by an increase in estrogen, which it caused by an increase in testosterone. When taking a test booster, test increases, then post cycle test decreases while estrogen might remain the same for a while, thus leading to gyno.

extra test can be converted to either DHT and/or estrogen; the former leads to increased onset of MPB (male pattern baldness), the latter can further contribute to onset of gyno.

CHUCK DIESEL
07-18-2006, 11:24 AM
Gyno is caused by an increase in estrogen, which it caused by an increase in testosterone. When taking a test booster, test increases, then post cycle test decreases while estrogen might remain the same for a while, thus leading to gyno.

extra test can be converted to either DHT and/or estrogen; the former leads to increased onset of MPB (male pattern baldness), the latter can further contribute to onset of gyno.

excess estrogen can be caused by alot of things like estrogen dominance. Some people with gyno have low to med. test levels.

"When taking a test booster....." Thats not what happens. Thats not what leads to gyno...where are you getting all these theories from? Are you making these up? You are telling me you know of someone on a nat. test booster that stop using it then they formed gyno?

Post nat. test booster test would not remain elevated for an extended amount of time, and if it does, that doesnt mean ur going to make more estrogen to lower test levels.

People convert a certain amount of test to estrogen which has little to do with their test levels.

CHUCK DIESEL
07-18-2006, 11:27 AM
"Gynecomastia is a medical term that comes from the Greek words for "women-like breasts." Though this oddly named condition is rarely talked about, it's actually quite common. Gynecomastia affects an estimated 40 to 60 percent of men."

HalleluYAH
07-18-2006, 11:33 AM
edit: Are all these questions some trick to learn about test boosters so Omega can come out with one? You got alot of questions that can be answered by learning about the endocrine system.
LOL.

bredfan
07-18-2006, 11:42 AM
excess estrogen can be caused by alot of things like estrogen dominance. Some people with gyno have low to med. test levels.

"When taking a test booster....." Thats not what happens. Thats not what leads to gyno...where are you getting all these theories from? Are you making these up? You are telling me you know of someone on a nat. test booster that stop using it then they formed gyno?

Post nat. test booster test would not remain elevated for an extended amount of time, and if it does, that doesnt mean ur going to make more estrogen to lower test levels.

People convert a certain amount of test to estrogen which has little to do with their test levels.

I think if you go by science it does make sense. High T will have more chance of getting aomatised into E, hence more E.

I think what he's saying is, that when you stop the Tbooster, your T will start to normalise, while the potential increase in E from the Tbooster stays the same. Possibly higher levels of E than T upon cessation.

However, as long as there is no shutdown of T, the body will compensate for the higher E by signaling production of more T to get back to homeostasis. Is there a large enough window for the extra E to be a problem? Wrong guy to ask.

Of course I really have no idea what I'm talking about. But as far as the endocrine systems' mechanics go, it's really not rocket science as far as I'm concerned.

HalleluYAH
07-18-2006, 12:00 PM
excess estrogen can be caused by alot of things like estrogen dominance. Some people with gyno have low to med. test levels.

"When taking a test booster....." Thats not what happens. Thats not what leads to gyno...where are you getting all these theories from? Are you making these up? You are telling me you know of someone on a nat. test booster that stop using it then they formed gyno?

Post nat. test booster test would not remain elevated for an extended amount of time, and if it does, that doesnt mean ur going to make more estrogen to lower test levels.

People convert a certain amount of test to estrogen which has little to do with their test levels.
gyno is but one one piece of the concern, a list of other concerns include:

- the hypothalamus gland detecting high test levels, and shutting off the portion of the endocrine system that produces testosterone and sperm.

- men that have a predisposition to MPB, balding will be accelerated.

- some experience the onset of scarring acne.

- increasing test carries the risk of stimulating prostate tumor growth.

- the libido issue post cycle.

- and of course, gyno

the use of estrogen blockers post cycle can help with some of the PC sides, but even so, these are still questions each prospective user should ask himself prior to supplementing with any test booster/androgen.

again, IMO there are safer, yet highly effective ways to stimulate muscle hypertrophy.

Skigazzi
07-18-2006, 12:04 PM
Oh oh, my turn to take a crack at estrogen rebound from a natural T booster (NTB).

I dont think it can occurr...

Once a NTB is stopped, test levels will drop off, but so will estrogen since the only source of estrogen is the naturally produced T. No NTB will impair natural T production to the point that remaining E will be a problem, there may be some slight supression (which isnt a good thing), but not enough IMHO to cause estrogen sides.

VS

In a cycle of an aromatizing steroid, like Test-E or 4-AD, after you stop a cycle of decent length, natural T production will be like 10% or less of ususal, and the breakdown of the steroids will leave you with excess estrogen for days /.weeks.... Excess estrogen, without natural T production is what causes gyno, that is why anti-e's are used PCT, to control E until T catches up (yes, also helps T catch up faster since a lack of E is a signal to make more T).

eh? did I make any sense??

bredfan
07-18-2006, 12:13 PM
Oh oh, my turn to take a crack at estrogen rebound from a natural T booster (NTB).

I dont think it can occurr...

Once a NTB is stopped, test levels will drop off, but so will estrogen since the only source of estrogen is the naturally produced T. No NTB will impair natural T production to the point that remaining E will be a problem, there may be some slight supression (which isnt a good thing), but not enough IMHO to cause estrogen sides.

VS

In a cycle of an aromatizing steroid, like Test-E or 4-AD, after you stop a cycle of decent length, natural T production will be like 10% or less of ususal, and the breakdown of the steroids will leave you with excess estrogen for days /.weeks.... Excess estrogen, without natural T production is what causes gyno, that is why anti-e's are used PCT, to control E until T catches up (yes, also helps T catch up faster since a lack of E is a signal to make more T).

eh? did I make any sense??

Yes, makes sense. I'm pretty sure that is exactly what I was trying to say.

I have no personal experience of use of PH or AAS but considering the half life of some of these compounds that also makes perfect sense.

Segansational
07-18-2006, 12:24 PM
Skigazzi, that sounds pretty plausible. Why do you think though that a natural test booster wouldn't supress your body's own test production? Is it just that most aren't strong enough, say to the power of a steroid, or that they don't mimic the chemistry of test and work through other routes with less feedback? Or, rather just that most people don't stay on it for long enough cycles to show any supression?

spoonman
07-18-2006, 12:40 PM
Oh oh, my turn to take a crack at estrogen rebound from a natural T booster (NTB).

I dont think it can occurr...

Once a NTB is stopped, test levels will drop off, but so will estrogen since the only source of estrogen is the naturally produced T. No NTB will impair natural T production to the point that remaining E will be a problem, there may be some slight supression (which isnt a good thing), but not enough IMHO to cause estrogen sides.

VS

In a cycle of an aromatizing steroid, like Test-E or 4-AD, after you stop a cycle of decent length, natural T production will be like 10% or less of ususal, and the breakdown of the steroids will leave you with excess estrogen for days /.weeks.... Excess estrogen, without natural T production is what causes gyno, that is why anti-e's are used PCT, to control E until T catches up (yes, also helps T catch up faster since a lack of E is a signal to make more T).

eh? did I make any sense??

Tried to rep but need to recharge.

Great explanation Ski!

Skigazzi
07-18-2006, 12:42 PM
Skigazzi, that sounds pretty plausible. Why do you think though that a natural test booster wouldn't supress your body's own test production? Is it just that most aren't strong enough, say to the power of a steroid, or that they don't mimic the chemistry of test and work through other routes with less feedback? Or, rather just that most people don't stay on it for long enough cycles to show any supression?

I think herbal T booster will slightly suppress T production, just nowhere near the shutdown incurred by AAS.

Actually, I only think NTB's that work through increasing free test (reduce SHBG) like nettle / avena based products will have a chance at having a negative affect since the body will see more free test, reduce LH, which reduces T production. However, I highly doubt that this will result in shutdown. The question is, as the products effects fade over a week or two after the last dose, does the body respond at the same pace, keep T levels equal to baseline? or does it lag causing a small time period where levels are lower than baseline? Either way I dont think they are strong enough to cause much issue. Maybe if it was used for MONTHS thered be a noticeable amount of suppression.

When it comes to supps aimed at increasing LH, well i simply dont have, and never had faith in them since EVERY study on tribulus failed to show any effect. Think about it, I take trib, lets pretend it increased LH, therefore I get an extra pulse or two of T, the body sees this extra T, and reduces LH...where does this get me?? nowhere.... :shrug:

MuZI
07-18-2006, 12:55 PM
When you use a nat. test booster that is effective. Whats going to happen is your going to increase LH output and/or DHEA production and/or reduce SHBG, and/or reduce binding of test to SHBG.

Interesting.

Do you mean herbal, AI, ATD, or any nat. booster at all?

spoonman
07-18-2006, 01:32 PM
I think herbal T booster will slightly suppress T production, just nowhere near the shutdown incurred by AAS.

Actually, I only think NTB's that work through increasing free test (reduce SHBG) like nettle / avena based products will have a chance at having a negative affect since the body will see more free test, reduce LH, which reduces T production. However, I highly doubt that this will result in shutdown. The question is, as the products effects fade over a week or two after the last dose, does the body respond at the same pace, keep T levels equal to baseline? or does it lag causing a small time period where levels are lower than baseline? Either way I dont think they are strong enough to cause much issue. Maybe if it was used for MONTHS thered be a noticeable amount of suppression.

When it comes to supps aimed at increasing LH, well i simply dont have, and never had faith in them since EVERY study on tribulus failed to show any effect. Think about it, I take trib, lets pretend it increased LH, therefore I get an extra pulse or two of T, the body sees this extra T, and reduces LH...where does this get me?? nowhere.... :shrug:

I am finishing up a cycle of ATD/Activate and I totally agree. IMO, the tapering really just helps the process of getting your hormones leveled out.

For example, if you did 50mg for 30 days and then stopped, your body would adjust to and get test levels back to baseline but the temporary shutdown would probably be more noticeable.

By tapering the dosage slowly, we can avoid this. When I was at 50mg of ATD per day, I was dry as hell. At 25mg, I was a little dry but had more water. Now I am doing EOD dosing and I almost feel completely normal again.

My theory is that tapering helps the transition from very high test/literally no estrogen to balanced/normal hormone levels a lot smoother and gradual.

Immichaelski
07-18-2006, 01:49 PM
Well we are only flesh, and its only an herbal. Your body wouldnt know the differnce between thta and a food. I dont care what the studies say, when I take tribulus, I can feel the high in my brain from the boost, and its a good feeling. I dont see any harm from short time use. Hell, the morning sun boosts lh levels, so it is healthy if anythingf, and if worried about gyno just take another healthy herb like chrysin with it. Some countries even use tribulus for chronic liver pains, soI guess we will all find out in a few years.

CHUCK DIESEL
07-18-2006, 02:16 PM
Interesting.

Do you mean herbal, AI, ATD, or any nat. booster at all?

herbal

Immichaelski
07-18-2006, 02:16 PM
Chuck Diesel is the man!! Ill take his word.

spoonman
07-18-2006, 02:19 PM
Well we are only flesh, and its only an herbal. Your body wouldnt know the differnce between thta and a food. I dont care what the studies say, when I take tribulus, I can feel the high in my brain from the boost, and its a good feeling. I dont see any harm from short time use. Hell, the morning sun boosts lh levels, so it is healthy if anythingf, and if worried about gyno just take another healthy herb like chrysin with it. Some countries even use tribulus for chronic liver pains, soI guess we will all find out in a few years.

This is bad logic. There are poisonous mushrooms that look edible.

With that being said, I do agree with the underlying point that these herbal test boosters are relatively safe and effective.

CHUCK DIESEL
07-18-2006, 02:22 PM
Bottom line:

-gyno isnt a "loop back"

-a loop back from a nat. test booster would occur while you are using the nat. test booster. Nat meaning herbal.

-the loop back would be a reduction in LH and or DHEA and or an increase in SHBG to try to balance levels of testosterone.

-being "shut down" is entirely different thing

-the body doesnt increase estrogen to regulate test levels. If so much of your test is converted to estrogen, then more test is going to give you more estrogen.

spoonman
07-18-2006, 02:37 PM
Bottom line:

-gyno isnt a "loop back"

-a loop back from a nat. test booster would occur while you are using the nat. test booster. Nat meaning herbal.

-the loop back would be a reduction in LH and or DHEA and or an increase in SHBG to try to balance levels of testosterone.

-being "shut down" is entirely different thing

-the body doesnt increase estrogen to regulate test levels. If so much of your test is converted to estrogen, then more test is going to give you more estrogen.

Thanks for this explanation, Chuck. i tried to rep but need a recharge

I want to also comment that I don't believe that any of these natural test boosters will induce gyno or actually cause the formation of it. Perhaps it could flare up an already existing condition but I think the gyno scare is overhyped, even with AAS. To me, gyno seems like MPB--some are prone and some are not.

jb6080
07-18-2006, 02:46 PM
I do think the AI's available boost test, and I do think that SOME of the gains can be maintained as long as one makes sure to add the calories the muscle gained while using them requires (100 calories per day per lb is a good target).
Hopefully that clears up my opinion a bit. :)

100 cals per day per lb is a good target? Is this a typo? Please, anyone who read this, don't mess up your life permanently by having 15000-30000 calories a day.

You will get diabetes.

Drumkid20
07-18-2006, 03:10 PM
100 cal/pound is in regards to the lean body mass you gained during cycle. I find it just a tad suspect that someone could gain 150pound in a cycle and thus need to add 15,000 cals....if udring a cycle you gained 10 pounds of muscle this would translate to 1000 calories, which might put you from a 2000 maintenence to a 3000 maint.

If you DID gain 150 pounds of muscle during your cycle and did infact eat 15,000 calories a day to maintain, i think perhaps diabetes is the least of your worries, I'd be more concerned about my skeleton being crushed to powder from the 35-40 pound gain per week over my 4 week cycle...

MuZI
07-18-2006, 03:19 PM
100 cal/pound is in regards to the lean body mass you gained during cycle. I find it just a tad suspect that someone could gain 150pound in a cycle and thus need to add 15,000 cals....if udring a cycle you gained 10 pounds of muscle this would translate to 1000 calories, which might put you from a 2000 maintenence to a 3000 maint.

If you DID gain 150 pounds of muscle during your cycle and did infact eat 15,000 calories a day to maintain, i think perhaps diabetes is the least of your worries, I'd be more concerned about my skeleton being crushed to powder from the 35-40 pound gain per week over my 4 week cycle...

Yeah, he was thinking 100cals/per total lb.

bredfan
07-18-2006, 03:29 PM
Bottom line:

-gyno isnt a "loop back"

-a loop back from a nat. test booster would occur while you are using the nat. test booster. Nat meaning herbal.

-the loop back would be a reduction in LH and or DHEA and or an increase in SHBG to try to balance levels of testosterone.

-being "shut down" is entirely different thing

-the body doesnt increase estrogen to regulate test levels. If so much of your test is converted to estrogen, then more test is going to give you more estrogen.

I think the term "shutdown" is being used a little too losely in this discussion.

I think we can all agree that the body is stupid. It wants balance, and acts mostly on instinct rather than actually reasoning with itself.

If free T is high the body will slow T production since it has been tricked into thinking it has enough. Same goes for E. If the body perceives an imbalance between T and E it will release more aromatase to fix the problem and thus more E is made fom the excess T.

The problem as Skigazzi aluded to earlier is when you stop taking a product designed to elevate T. Since more T was made available by the product, the body has slowed it's own production of T, hence the term "supression" being used.

When T levels rise, E levels rise. When stopping the Tbooster, inevitably T levels will fall. How much they fall, and whether this would actually create a concerning imbalance between high E and low T is where it gets complicated for me.

Though I don't believe the window of opportunity for E to take over and start running amuck is actually long enough. I do believe that in theory it is possible. However, I also don't believe it to be as cut and dry as some would like it to be. Too many outside factors to consider.

spoonman
07-18-2006, 04:07 PM
I think the term "shutdown" is being used a little too losely in this discussion.

I think we can all agree that the body is stupid. It wants balance, and acts mostly on instinct rather than actually reasoning with itself.

If free T is high the body will slow T production since it has been tricked into thinking it has enough. Same goes for E. If the body perceives an imbalance between T and E it will release more aromatase to fix the problem and thus more E is made fom the excess T.

The problem as Skigazzi aluded to earlier is when you stop taking a product designed to elevate T. Since more T was made available by the product, the body has slowed it's own production of T, hence the term "supression" being used.

When T levels rise, E levels rise. When stopping the Tbooster, inevitably T levels will fall. How much they fall, and whether this would actually create a concerning imbalance between high E and low T is where it gets complicated for me.

Though I don't believe the window of opportunity for E to take over and start running amuck is actually long enough. I do believe that in theory it is possible. However, I also don't believe it to be as cut and dry as some would like it to be. Too many outside factors to consider.

This is the reason that I think a tapering of the dosage will help. The idea is to slowly let T down and E up. read my previous post:



I am finishing up a cycle of ATD/Activate and I totally agree. IMO, the tapering really just helps the process of getting your hormones leveled out.

For example, if you did 50mg for 30 days and then stopped, your body would adjust to and get test levels back to baseline but the temporary shutdown would probably be more noticeable.

By tapering the dosage slowly, we can avoid this. When I was at 50mg of ATD per day, I was dry as hell. At 25mg, I was a little dry but had more water. Now I am doing EOD dosing and I almost feel completely normal again.

My theory is that tapering helps the transition from very high test/literally no estrogen to balanced/normal hormone levels a lot smoother and gradual.

bredfan
07-18-2006, 04:18 PM
This is the reason that I think a tapering of the dosage will help. The idea is to slowly let T down and E up. read my previous post:



Based on my limited knowledge I agree that tapering an AI is probably the best bet.

However, I was reffering more toward herbal test boosters w/o use of an AI. I guess I could have been more clear in that regard.

CHUCK DIESEL
07-18-2006, 04:19 PM
The problem as Skigazzi aluded to earlier is when you stop taking a product designed to elevate T. Since more T was made available by the product, the body has slowed it's own production of T, hence the term "supression" being used.



There is alot about nat test boosters you guys dont know. For example, nat. test boosters dont supply the body with test so that when you stop taking it you are short test. It doesnt work that way. Nat test boosters dont provide the body with test. They work as a stated they work a few post ago.

The product may have had a end result of more free test but no nat test product goes about achieving that increase in free test by providing your body with test so that when u stop taking it ur short of test. That happen when u take test.

CHUCK DIESEL
07-18-2006, 04:23 PM
Also alot of the "theory" expressed here makes no sence (about nat. test boosters), I wonder why no reps from companies with nat. test products have posted on this thread. You gotta know how what you put out works.

adoniscomplex
07-18-2006, 04:24 PM
The neg. feedback loop doesnt occur when you are done with the test booster, it would occur as soon as you start responding to the test booster if it is to occur.
the negitive feedback loop is consitantly occuring in our bodies 24 hours a day

CHUCK DIESEL
07-18-2006, 04:26 PM
the negitive feedback loop is consitantly occuring in our bodies 24 hours a day

right, its nothing that "flares up" when you stop a test product.

meanmo
07-18-2006, 04:28 PM
probably not, since increasing test doesnt increase libido, increasing LH increases libido.


what?

I never heard that before, test and largely DHT are responsible for Libido, as well as normal prolactin levels.

In my experience libido is very complicated and includes some pyschological factors as well.

CHUCK DIESEL
07-18-2006, 04:33 PM
what?

I never heard that before, test and largely DHT are responsible for Libido, as well as normal prolactin levels.

In my experience libido is very complicated and includes some pyschological factors as well.

DHT, dopamine and LH are responsible for libido.

Low test and low prolactin (even low estrogen) can reduce yoru libido but thats if you are below normal, you can have the highest free test in the world and not have any libido if your LH is low.

There is a guy on here who has really high free test, low SHBG and his LH is low and guess what...............he said his libido is low.

bredfan
07-18-2006, 04:45 PM
There is alot about nat test boosters you guys dont know. For example, nat. test boosters dont supply the body with test so that when you stop taking it you are short test. It doesnt work that way. Nat test boosters dont provide the body with test. They work as a stated they work a few post ago.

The product may have had a end result of more free test but no nat test product goes about achieving that increase in free test by providing your body with test so that when u stop taking it ur short of test. That happen when u take test.

You're exactly right. I don't know much about test boosters per se. Only that they are designed to well....boost natural test.

A natural boost in free test, is still a boost. And will be seen by the body as such. Correct? Therefore a boost in free test could possibly trick the body into producing less total test because it feels it has enough free test already.

Again, most of my responses here are theory, based on my knowledge of how the body works.

Since I feel as though I am getting in way over my head here, I am going to respectfully bow out of this debate. Though I do look forward to seeing where it goes.

Thanks to all for making this the most intersting and worthwhile thead I have encountered on this board thus far.



Also alot of the "theory" expressed here makes no sence (about nat. test boosters), I wonder why no reps from companies with nat. test products have posted on this thread. You gotta know how what you put out works.

If the theorys make no sense please by all means debunk them. That's why I got involved in the first place. I consider myself a "student of the game" and would love nothing more than for the theories to be replaced by reality. Thus educating me more on a subject that confuses the hell out of me.

Skigazzi
07-18-2006, 06:19 PM
Yeah, he was thinking 100cals/per total lb.

Yes, thank you!!! :D

Its a ballpark estimate that an added lb of muscle will burn 100 calories a day, so if you gained 10 lbs of lean mass on cycle, youd need 1000 calories a day extra to support this, maybe its a little high, but I was just trying to make a point that you will lose gains if you go back to eating at your prior levels, or only slightly above it.

HalleluYAH
07-19-2006, 05:06 AM
Bottom line:

-gyno isnt a "loop back"

-a loop back from a nat. test booster would occur while you are using the nat. test booster. Nat meaning herbal.

-the loop back would be a reduction in LH and or DHEA and or an increase in SHBG to try to balance levels of testosterone.

-being "shut down" is entirely different thing

-the body doesnt increase estrogen to regulate test levels. If so much of your test is converted to estrogen, then more test is going to give you more estrogen.
The real bottom line:

Anyone considering supplementing with a test booster or androgen should first ask themselves if any of the following present a valid enough concern to reconsider. the first concern listed is, of course, the negative feedback loop; which poses but one of many potential concerns...

- the hypothalamus gland detecting high test levels, and shutting off the portion of the endocrine system that produces testosterone and sperm.

- men that have a predisposition to MPB, balding will be accelerated.

- some experience the onset of scarring acne.

- increasing test carries the risk of stimulating prostate tumor growth.

- the libido issue post cycle.

- possible onset of gyno.

Personally, the possibility of speeding up prostate growth and rapid onset of MPB is enough for me to stand clear. ;)

Lonny
07-19-2006, 05:42 AM
This is a very good thread. Especially for those interested in androgens/anabolics, whether they've done them, plan on doing them, or just want to know more about thier actions.

And the inevitable return of BK to bb.com

CHUCK DIESEL
07-19-2006, 07:04 AM
If the theorys make no sense please by all means debunk them. That's why I got involved in the first place. I consider myself a "student of the game" and would love nothing more than for the theories to be replaced by reality. Thus educating me more on a subject that confuses the hell out of me.

I explained it a while ago. Nat test boosters dont provide your body with test so that you make less and a loopback would occur while u are using the product, not after use. That "side effect" where your body isnt producing test at "acceptable" levels after use of a product is mainly because its a hormonal product.

CHUCK DIESEL
07-19-2006, 07:11 AM
The real bottom line:

Anyone considering supplementing with a test booster or androgen should first ask themselves if any of the following present a valid enough concern to reconsider. the first concern listed is, of course, the negative feedback loop; which poses but one of many potential concerns...

- the hypothalamus gland detecting high test levels, and shutting off the portion of the endocrine system that produces testosterone and sperm.

- men that have a predisposition to MPB, balding will be accelerated.

- some experience the onset of scarring acne.

- increasing test carries the risk of stimulating prostate tumor growth.

- the libido issue post cycle.

- possible onset of gyno.

Personally, the possibility of speeding up prostate growth and rapid onset of MPB is enough for me to stand clear. ;)

thats not the bottom line, thats the bottom line if you use a nat. test booster that only increases free test. As in not controlling the increase in estrogen or DHT. More test = more DHT and/or estrogen. Which for some = more acne, prostate problems gyno acc. of MPB IF the product is effective at increasing test levels to a "sig" degree as in over a 40% increase AND not formulated to control an increase in DHT or estrogen.

Nat. test boosters dont cause post cycle loss of libido. The loss would be while ur using the product.

Once again that neg. loop occurs while using the product if it is to occur. I explained that.

CHUCK DIESEL
07-19-2006, 07:14 AM
Also Im not defending nat. test boosters because GET DIESEL has one, Im stating what I know from my experience with nat. test boosters, formulating nat. test boosters and customer feedback from DIESEL TEST.

The problem is most nat. test boosters dont work and are only formulated to increase total test or free test or decrease estrogen not all 3.

HalleluYAH
07-19-2006, 08:21 AM
And the inevitable return of BK to bb.com
:confused: x 10

HalleluYAH
07-19-2006, 08:37 AM
The problem is most nat. test boosters dont work and are only formulated to increase total test or free test or decrease estrogen not all 3.
thanks for the continued input Chuck. this may turn out to be a very good point in terms of minimizing side-effects, and will be good for prospective users to consider using a supplement formulated with this in mind. ;)

CHUCK DIESEL
07-19-2006, 08:40 AM
:confused: x 10

Go back a page or 2

Travis71902
07-19-2006, 09:15 AM
:confused: x 10

X 2





Great thread guys.

Cyrus317
07-19-2006, 10:14 AM
thanks for the continued input Chuck. this may turn out to be a very good point in terms of minimizing side-effects, and will be good for prospective users to consider using a supplement formulated with this in mind. ;)

So, then Chuck, what's your take on the NHA stack? Good, bad, indifferent? And then how do you feel about ZMA, since ZMA is really only meant to replenish some important minerals in the muscle, yet studies have shown a general trend in test. increase over time?

meanmo
07-19-2006, 10:25 AM
DHT, dopamine and LH are responsible for libido.

Low test and low prolactin (even low estrogen) can reduce yoru libido but thats if you are below normal, you can have the highest free test in the world and not have any libido if your LH is low.

There is a guy on here who has really high free test, low SHBG and his LH is low and guess what...............he said his libido is low.


thats interesting to me.. I thought dopamine agonists just reduce prolactin as its mechanism for libido? Dopamine is pretty tied in with Mood as well. I wonder if FSH has an impact, cause I like to run HCG throughout cycles but never really noticed libido bumps unless I have something like Mesteralone (proviron) in there> DHT and similar molecules seem to effect my libido to the greatest degree. D2 Agonists like Cabergoline help as well.

thanks

spoonman
07-19-2006, 10:46 AM
The real bottom line:

Anyone considering supplementing with a test booster or androgen should first ask themselves if any of the following present a valid enough concern to reconsider. the first concern listed is, of course, the negative feedback loop; which poses but one of many potential concerns...

- the hypothalamus gland detecting high test levels, and shutting off the portion of the endocrine system that produces testosterone and sperm.

- men that have a predisposition to MPB, balding will be accelerated.

- some experience the onset of scarring acne.

- increasing test carries the risk of stimulating prostate tumor growth.

- the libido issue post cycle.

- possible onset of gyno.

Personally, the possibility of speeding up prostate growth and rapid onset of MPB is enough for me to stand clear. ;)

While these may be POSSIBLE side effects, the risk is low. Even steroids can be ran by healthy males in a manner that negates or prevents almost any sides. IMO these natural test boosters have to be much safer as they do not cause shutdown requiring PCT.

It almost seems like you are on a crusade against these products...I mean, the way you worded it - "scarring acne" and "prostate tumor growth" is a bit dramatic considering the slim chances of getting any noticeable sides (given the ancedotal feedback of many, many users)

I think what Chuck is trying to say about the continual feedback loop is that natural test boosters are like adding a little fuel to a fire thats already going--it'll rage while the fuel is there but once its gone, it goes back to normal. with steroids, you are creating a whole new fire that is so big that the old one goes out because its not even needed.

HalleluYAH
07-19-2006, 12:45 PM
While these may be POSSIBLE side effects, the risk is low. Even steroids can be ran by healthy males in a manner that negates or prevents almost any sides. IMO these natural test boosters have to be much safer as they do not cause shutdown requiring PCT.

It almost seems like you are on a crusade against these products...I mean, the way you worded it - "scarring acne" and "prostate tumor growth" is a bit dramatic considering the slim chances of getting any noticeable sides (given the ancedotal feedback of many, many users)

I think what Chuck is trying to say about the continual feedback loop is that natural test boosters are like adding a little fuel to a fire thats already going--it'll rage while the fuel is there but once its gone, it goes back to normal. with steroids, you are creating a whole new fire that is so big that the old one goes out because its not even needed.
LOL. To each their own.

Funny you should mention the quotes; "scarring acne" and "prostate tumor growth". I copied and pasted these remarks from a website of a company selling a testosterone replacement supplement. ;)

as for steroids with no sides, d-bol increases protien synthesis and glycogenolysis and not free test levels correct? So this would not have the same sides as a test booster, if any.

again, anyone considering supplementing with a test booster or androgen should first ask themselves if any of the those questions present a valid enough concern to reconsider. I do not claim to have the ultimate answer, nor do any of us. the question needs to be answered by the individual. this thread simply raises some educated questions.

bredfan
07-19-2006, 01:50 PM
LOL. To each their own.

Funny you should mention the quotes; "scarring acne" and "prostate tumor growth". I copied and pasted these remarks from a website of a company selling a testosterone replacement supplement. ;)
.

What exactly is a test replacement supp?

I thought we were talking about test boosters?

You have now completely lost me.

HalleluYAH
07-20-2006, 06:57 AM
What exactly is a test replacement supp?

I thought we were talking about test boosters?

You have now completely lost me.
test replacement supps, test boosters, androgenic steroids etc, can all lead to an over abundance of free test which can be converted to DHT, cause horrible acne etc.

if formulated right, it sounds as though you can minimize sides with things like anti-DHT, estrogen blockers etc.

Segansational
07-20-2006, 07:56 AM
So, from what you're saying, it sounds like a test booster product with anti-E characteristics would be the best option if one is going to take it. Because as Chuck has mentioned, if there is a feedback loop it will occur while on the test booster.

But if it occurs afterwards, running an anti-E product after the test booster would be best. But that would be essentially running a PCT, which, not only do people not run PCT's after test boosters, but they use them, as part of their PCT...

So, then we can conclude (I think) that there probably is some sort of feedback loop, but the effects are small as far as producing an extra amount of estrogen in comparison to products like AAS, and that it occurs while on the test booster product. And furthermore if you are worried, taper your doses towards the end and you shouldn't have a problem.

After reading my post, I think I just agreed with and reiterated spoonman's ideas.

bredfan
07-20-2006, 11:12 AM
test replacement supps, test boosters, androgenic steroids etc, can all lead to an over abundance of free test which can be converted to DHT, cause horrible acne etc.

if formulated right, it sounds as though you can minimize sides with things like anti-DHT, estrogen blockers etc.

Look. Your questions all seem valid, just uneducated.

Let's be realistic here. You're putting a natural test boosting SUPPLEMENT, in the same category as anbolic, androgenic steroids. Are you listening to yourself?

Anecdotal feedback fom tons of users on this forum alone suggest these questions you bought up, not to be an issue. Does that mean it's not an issue at all? Of course not. There's always a chance, albeit a much much smaller chance than by taking AAS/PH.

Seriously, do you really believe that natural test supplements (ie. herbs, items thats have an herbal, not chemical makeup) work that well? Cmon man. These are not herbal steroids here. If they were, the demand for black market drugs would crash. Athletes everywhere would be jumping the on the bandwagon.

With the exception of Chuck and Skigazzi, the lack of other reps who sell such products is interesting. But that's it. Why be cross examined when you don't have to be?

I think you mean well, but I'm not sure if you want to protect me, or sell more CEE. Of course I'm not directly accusing you of a smear campaign. Just the nature of the beast is all.

It all comes down to reality. Is a $30 bottle of some abstract herb as effective as the real thing? If I have to answer that, then I am definitely in the wrong place.

bredfan
07-20-2006, 11:20 AM
test replacement supps, test boosters, androgenic steroids etc, can all lead to an over abundance of free test which can be converted to DHT, cause horrible acne etc.

if formulated right, it sounds as though you can minimize sides with things like anti-DHT, estrogen blockers etc.

One more thing. Running a test booster with estrogen blockers would actually increase your chances of hair loss and acne. At least theoretically.

All that test floating aound, would in turn mean more DHT wich could in theory lead to hairloss and acne. The only thing the anti E would help with is E related sides such as Gyno, bloating etc....

From what I've read, some of the free test boosting herbs actually block DHT as well as SHBG. At least according to certain write ups and google searches. In fact, one of them is supposedly being patented in use as a hair tonic. Again, this info is a result of a google search and not meant to be taken as fact.

spoonman
07-20-2006, 11:56 AM
Look. Your questions all seem valid, just uneducated.

Let's be realistic here. You're putting a natural test boosting SUPPLEMENT, in the same category as anbolic, androgenic steroids. Are you listening to yourself?

Anecdotal feedback fom tons of users on this forum alone suggest these questions you bought up, not to be an issue. Does that mean it's not an issue at all? Of course not. There's always a chance, albeit a much much smaller chance than by taking AAS/PH.


Exactly my point....which is why I gave up arguing with him.

The whole concept of what he's trying to imply is just ludicrous IMO. I suppose some can go ahead and stay away from test boosters if they are that paranoid about those dramatic side effects. Personally, Id be more worried about getting hit by a bus or having a jet land on me. Anyhow, the people willing to take the risk are getting results...look at the logs!



With the exception of Chuck and Skigazzi, the lack of other reps who sell such products is interesting. But that's it. Why be cross examined when you don't have to be?
If I were the reps, I would completely ignore this thread. They are saints for answering as many idiotic questions as they have. They are constantly getting "charged up" about their products by uneducated morons. We are lucky they are even here to answer questions, let alone deal with people implying that their products could cause "scarring acne" or gyno.

fayd
07-20-2006, 12:06 PM
If using a test booster (not an AI, but an herbal cocktail) that works (theoretically) through boosting LH, would the increased rates of LH increase the rate at which your Leydig cell receptors burn out or become indifferent to LH? No one has really mentioned this and I wonder if anyone has any thoughts?

HalleluYAH
07-20-2006, 12:16 PM
If using a test booster (not an AI, but an herbal cocktail) that works (theoretically) through boosting LH, would the increased rates of LH increase the rate at which your Leydig cell receptors burn out or become indifferent to LH? No one has really mentioned this and I wonder if anyone has any thoughts?
excellent question. are you a bio-chem major, or what? lol. :D :p

Skigazzi
07-20-2006, 12:17 PM
excellent question. are you a bio-chem major, or what? lol. :D :p

Agreed, great question....My gut says its just aging that slows the leydig cells down, and not 'use'...but I have no real idea.

meanmo
07-20-2006, 01:49 PM
If using a test booster (not an AI, but an herbal cocktail) that works (theoretically) through boosting LH, would the increased rates of LH increase the rate at which your Leydig cell receptors burn out or become indifferent to LH? No one has really mentioned this and I wonder if anyone has any thoughts?


I know that large doses and chronic use of HCG can be toxic to leydig cells and HCG mimics the actions of LH essentially.

These so called boosters dont significantly raise your LH levels though, certainly not enough to damage your leydig cells I would guess.

CHUCK DIESEL
07-21-2006, 09:13 AM
I think what Chuck is trying to say about the continual feedback loop is that natural test boosters are like adding a little fuel to a fire thats already going--it'll rage while the fuel is there but once its gone, it goes back to normal. with steroids, you are creating a whole new fire that is so big that the old one goes out because its not even needed.

correct

CHUCK DIESEL
07-21-2006, 09:17 AM
So, then Chuck, what's your take on the NHA stack? Good, bad, indifferent? And then how do you feel about ZMA, since ZMA is really only meant to replenish some important minerals in the muscle, yet studies have shown a general trend in test. increase over time?

Whats the NHA stack? activate + atd?

What do I think in terms of what?

With ZMA there is obviously some synergy with those ingredients if they show an increase in test. When I see something that shows an increase in anything I dont try to figue out how can it do this or that because its only blabla, I look at it as what it does. So I dont really look to deep into ZMA. If its been proven to work then I leave it at that.

TUnit
07-22-2006, 09:57 AM
Whats the NHA stack? activate + atd? What do I think in terms of what?


The NHA stack is Activate + Rebound Reloaded. I'd also be interested to hear what you think about the stack because it has a test booster (divanil @ 400 mg per cap 4x daily) and an AI (Aromatrix: 400mg (A proprietary blend of the following: white button mushroom extract, flax seed oil powder, and 6-bromotase (6-bromo-3, 17-dioxoetioallocholane)).

Just would be interested if you think this stack is good since it is purported to increase total test, free test, and lower estrogen.

CHUCK DIESEL
07-22-2006, 05:15 PM
The NHA stack is Activate + Rebound Reloaded. I'd also be interested to hear what you think about the stack because it has a test booster (divanil @ 400 mg per cap 4x daily) and an AI (Aromatrix: 400mg (A proprietary blend of the following: white button mushroom extract, flax seed oil powder, and 6-bromotase (6-bromo-3, 17-dioxoetioallocholane)).

Just would be interested if you think this stack is good since it is purported to increase total test, free test, and lower estrogen.

well i pretty sure I saw test results on here that says it raises free test (by way of the nettle ingredient divanil) and decreases total estrogen because of the ATD so I guess I can say it works to do just that.

It still amazes me how no reps specifically from Designer and controlled labs havenít posted anything on here but they are quick to post when someone ask "what blabla should I use."