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DRACOMACHINE
12-29-2002, 06:34 AM
You younger guys, need to calm down with the pro-hormone questions.

Try and hit the gym with consistency for a few years straight with no breaks. Many of the guys on this board did not start using Prohormones until they hit 30 yrs of age. Why wait so long? Because their natural tests levels did not drop until their late twenties.

I went from weighing 190 to 275 in 5 years, benching 455, inclining 405, and military pressing 365, and squating my bench max for reps like it was a broom stick. My main supplement was protein. I did not use pro-hormones because there weren't any, no creatine because I had never heard of it. This was the early 90's before much of the supps reached the general population.

I am in my 30's now still strong and still not using pro-hormones. I have benched over 400lbs every year since I was 17. When I cut down for a show I can't retain that strength but onece I am in my off-season boom there it is.

I am not a freak of nature, My lifts are no where near record breakers. I am a guy who lifts consistently year after year. No pro-hormones, no steroids just food, protein, and weights. Try working out on a consistent basis no weeks off ever! That dedication will work better than blowing thousands of dollars over the next few years trying to buy that supplement that will get you looking like Ronnie Coleman. There isn't one!

BicepsKiddV
12-29-2002, 06:36 AM
That is the best post i have EVER seen on this board! GREAT JOB!

Must be it will be erased since you are not promoting all of this crap these companies are pushing.

97LT1
12-29-2002, 06:40 AM
Excellent post Drac. :cool:

DRACOMACHINE
12-30-2002, 08:08 AM
I was not trying to slam any of the Pro-hormones, I just wanted the younger guys to realize that you could gain so much just by being consistent. Every day there is a thread that pops up with some Newbie looking to get huge quick and ripped at the same time. I have been working out in the gyms since 1983, yes I was too young when I started but I made up for it with consistency.
Good old fashioned hard work and dedication, that is the secret to muscle growth.

pet2379
12-30-2002, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by DRACOMACHINE

Good old fashioned hard work and dedication, that is the secret to muscle growth.

Pro hormones won't work unless you have this in order in the first place. good post

Person
12-30-2002, 10:21 AM
190 to 275 in 5 years? Sorry man I kinda doubt you weight 275, that would put you as one of the best naturals around. That is also a pretty big jump from 190-275 in only 5 years. Most people are lucky to get 10lbs a year after their first or second year. Good post though, I guess.

Judo
12-30-2002, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by Person
190 to 275 in 5 years? Sorry man I kinda doubt you weight 275, that would put you as one of the best naturals around. That is also a pretty big jump from 190-275 in only 5 years. Most people are lucky to get 10lbs a year after their first or second year. Good post though, I guess.

Nowhere in the post does he say he gained 85lbs of LBM.

Tantalus
12-30-2002, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by Person
190 to 275 in 5 years? Sorry man I kinda doubt you weight 275, that would put you as one of the best naturals around. That is also a pretty big jump from 190-275 in only 5 years. Most people are lucky to get 10lbs a year after their first or second year. Good post though, I guess.

I'm sure the 275 isn't cut... unless he's really tall.

And 190 to 275 in 5 years isn't at all hard to believe. I went from 155 to 205 in about 16 months completely natural.

Person
12-30-2002, 10:33 AM
That's certainly what he implied. I mean is he going to cut 40-50lbs? That certainly looks like a good diet when you need to do that :rolleyes:

Person
12-30-2002, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by Tantalus
I'm sure the 275 isn't cut... unless he's really tall.

And 190 to 275 in 5 years isn't at all hard to believe. I went from 155 to 205 in about 16 months completely natural.

When you hit 200 and above it is very hard to gain muscle which is why most IBFF bodybuilders take steroids/gh/etc. Most naturals who are even 220 or 230 cut are often in their late 20's at the very earliest.

RippedUp
12-30-2002, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by Person
why most IBFF bodybuilders take

IFBB bodybuilders.

Biggin
12-30-2002, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by Person
190 to 275 in 5 years? Sorry man I kinda doubt you weight 275, that would put you as one of the best naturals around. That is also a pretty big jump from 190-275 in only 5 years. Most people are lucky to get 10lbs a year after their first or second year. Good post though, I guess.

190-275 in 5yrs is completely, 100% attainable, with no supps excluding protein by the ton, and eating like a bitch. 10lbs a year after the first-second year is also off regarding (at least) my personal experience. People shouldn't be so quick to doubt is my point, because these kinds of gains are completely reasonable for someone who is consistent, and is nutritionally sound of mind.

stri8ted
12-30-2002, 11:34 AM
I cannot agree more, everytime I see a PH post I look at the profile...9 times out of 10 it is someone in the 16-25 range or they do not put their B-day (ie. under 20). I truely believe these are best left alone until at least age 25, and I wish it was stressed more on this board.

Further I can't believe how these guys buy this stuff, begin taking it, and then start asking questions. They have no idea what consequences could be rendered by these PH's if not used intelligently.

I do think these products can be great for some bodybuilders, but only those smart enough to do proper research, and those experienced and old enough to see positive results without ill effect.
am also a big believer that the government should not mandate laws against the use of naturally occuring substances and I feel that people should be able to do with their body whatever they want; however, it sickens when people charge into something with reckless abandonment before having a plan or doing research. I liken it to NASA launching people to the moon without figuring out how much fuel is needed or what risks are involved. Bodybuilding is a sport based on planning, reasonable goal setting, and knowlege.

I am glad these boards are here, I just get sick sometimes when I see what some kids are about to do and sometimes (mostly not) the advice given to them. I just wish more people would utilize the expirtise within this board PRIOR to moving forward in a disasterous manner. This is not just about PH's but ANYTHING, bodybuilding related or not. Research and evaluate BEFORE you make desisions.

Sorry, this post was an opportunity to get this off my chest.

-Stri8ted

John Benz
12-30-2002, 12:37 PM
Great post, Draco!

Patrick Arnold
12-30-2002, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by DRACOMACHINE
You younger guys, need to calm down with the pro-hormone questions.

Try and hit the gym with consistency for a few years straight with no breaks. Many of the guys on this board did not start using Prohormones until they hit 30 yrs of age. Why wait so long? Because their natural tests levels did not drop until their late twenties.



Statistical studies have shown that testosterone levels increase markedly at onset of puberty (duh), continue to increase during puberty, and then reach a maximum in the early twenties. They pretty much stay at that level until mid thirties or so and then decline about 1-2% on average every year after that.

Mind you, these are AVERAGES, and any one individual can vary markedly from these averages. For instance, men sometimes have a drastic decline in testosterone levels at some point in later life due to disease, stressful events etc. You know the guy that seems to age 20 years overnight? That dude probably needs some test replacement badly

Patrick Arnold
12-30-2002, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by DRACOMACHINE
I was not trying to slam any of the Pro-hormones, I just wanted the younger guys to realize that you could gain so much just by being consistent. Every day there is a thread that pops up with some Newbie looking to get huge quick and ripped at the same time. I have been working out in the gyms since 1983, yes I was too young when I started but I made up for it with consistency.
Good old fashioned hard work and dedication, that is the secret to muscle growth.


I think your post has more to do with the time one has been in the iron game as opposed to ones chronological age.

For example, a 23year old guy that has been lifting hard and consistently since 16yrs old and has plateaued, despite trying everything else, is probably a good candidate for prohormone assistance.

OTOH, a 38 year old guy that has been lifting for 2 years and has not yet plateaued, or figured out how to eat and train optimally, is probably a bad candidate for prohormones.

Patrick Arnold
12-30-2002, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by DRACOMACHINE
I was not trying to slam any of the Pro-hormones, I just wanted the younger guys to realize that you could gain so much just by being consistent.


I know many older guys that don't know this too.

Patrick Arnold
12-30-2002, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by stri8ted
I cannot agree more, everytime I see a PH post I look at the profile...9 times out of 10 it is someone in the 16-25 range or they do not put their B-day (ie. under 20). I truely believe these are best left alone until at least age 25, and I wish it was stressed more on this board.

-Stri8ted


Unfortunately, if someone is in their early twenties and is a competitive bodybuilder or weightlifter, or strongman or whatever he is not gonna wait around till 25 to start assisting his training with hormonal supplements while he gets his ass handed to him in meets and whatnot. What happens if he tears his shoulder on his 25th birthday and his career is shot?

Seriously, I understand your good intentions. I just think you have to try to see the real world for what it is, and not be so idealistic. You cannot just say to someone under 25 that they should not take this stuff, end of story. You have to analyze the pros and cons for that particular person. In many situations you may be right, it may be the prudent thing to wait until at least 25 years of age. In other cases it may not be

Lots of people hate me here cuz i don't see things in black and white. I raise points that they find offensive. These guys remind me of Doctor Zayuss from Planet of the Apes who covers his ears and screams when Cornelius tries to show him evidence of prior human civilization

ElvenMassacre
12-30-2002, 03:14 PM
heh, nobody can argue with Pat Arnold....

roobear
12-30-2002, 03:20 PM
Patrick Arnold for President! The man managed to work Planet of the Apes into a debate over performance enhancing drugs effectively and efficiently...amazing!

stri8ted
12-30-2002, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Patrick Arnold
Unfortunately, if someone is in their early twenties and is a competitive bodybuilder or weightlifter, or strongman or whatever he is not gonna wait around till 25 to start assisting his training with hormonal supplements while he gets his ass handed to him in meets and whatnot. What happens if he tears his shoulder on his 25th birthday and his career is shot?

Seriously, I understand your good intentions. I just think you have to try to see the real world for what it is, and not be so idealistic. You cannot just say to someone under 25 that they should not take this stuff, end of story. You have to analyze the pros and cons for that particular person. In many situations you may be right, it may be the prudent thing to wait until at least 25 years of age. In other cases it may not be

Lots of people hate me here cuz i don't see things in black and white. I raise points that they find offensive. These guys remind me of Doctor Zayuss from Planet of the Apes who covers his ears and screams when Cornelius tries to show him evidence of prior human civilization

Of course, there is always exceptions to the rule, much like everything in life. There are pros and cons always, one must judge for themselves the risk/reward relationship and derive their own conclusions, and again that is why I reiterate that the government has no right to regulate these substances. My point was not that people under 25 should not use PH's, but that these substances are not toys and proper respect and research should be applied prior to their use. The very reason that we may not have the legal right to use PH's (much like GHB) is because unenlightend people are improperly using PH's with unintended reprocussions. I am just concerned about the guys who come in and say they just started their 1-ad cycle and subsequently ask how long they should do it for and what does cycling mean. But, by all means those who have researched, are of legal age and know what they are getting into, your body and your perogative.

-Stri8ted

Patrick Arnold
12-30-2002, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by stri8ted
Of course, there is always exceptions to the rule, much like everything in life. There are pros and cons always, one must judge for themselves the risk/reward relationship and derive their own conclusions, and again that is why I reiterate that the government has no right to regulate these substances. My point was not that people under 25 should not use PH's, but that these substances are not toys and proper respect and research should be applied prior to their use. The very reason that we may not have the legal right to use PH's (much like GHB) is because unenlightend people are improperly using PH's with unintended reprocussions. I am just concerned about the guys who come in and say they just started their 1-ad cycle and subsequently ask how long they should do it for and what does cycling mean. But, by all means those who have researched, are of legal age and know what they are getting into, your body and your perogative.

-Stri8ted


WEll, OK, then....good!!!

DRACOMACHINE
12-30-2002, 06:11 PM
Well as far as the unattainable remark, no way in hell am I competing at 275. I said I went from 190 to 275 in the early 90's when I was playing football in college. After college I turned to natural bodybuilding. I cut down low to 183 the first time out doing everything wrong. Now I am 235 and solid, I will compete in the lower 200-210 area, I am 6' 2''.

That aside to Pat: now I was directing this thread not to an experienced lifter or supp user but to the newbies who are craving the magical pill for massive weight gain and fat loss. I wasn't knocking your products or anything. I would think that these same people who you mentioned would probably be okay on Pro-hormones. Yet then they should do well on steroids then wouldn't they? However I do not believe most of these guys are ready to do steroids yet, do you? But if not then maybe Pro-steroids are out of the question also.

You and bill are pretty good at what you do, shoot you have many people reaching their goals using 1AD and bills ethergels. You guys have taken over the supp industry.

It is the ones who are just beginning, have not hit their potential yet, not ready for the steroids pro steroids arena that I was directing the thread to.

Steroids have their place, without them we would have no Arnold, Lee's, lou's, Ronnie, etc. I know us non steroid bodybuilders tend to get in the way of things trying to promote non steroid ways of bodybuilding. I surely did not attack the pro-steroid/ pro-hormone supps. there is a place for them also. everyone trains for different reasons. Maybe there is a place for us all. Just do not take advantage of the newbies in the Iron game they are going to be the rulers of the gym someday, lets not have them telling our grand kids that the only way a man could bench 300 lbs is by taking steroids. Shoot I never took them and I benched over 300 lbs when I was 15, over 400 when I was 17 without Pro-anything.

DRACOMACHINE
12-30-2002, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by Person
When you hit 200 and above it is very hard to gain muscle which is why most IBFF bodybuilders take steroids/gh/etc. Most naturals who are even 220 or 230 cut are often in their late 20's at the very earliest.

I hope you do not really believe this. No as I stated before I am currently not 275, If you check my posts at all in the last 3 years you would know I was a football player and needed to keep my weight at a higher level. But I was not a fat football player. Sure I had size 36 inch waist but It wasn't what you would consider fat. Anyone who thinks once you get to 200 lbs you need to take steroids to get any bigger scares the *uck out of me. Maybe bigger at 3% bodyfat but there are plent of non steroid users out there above 230 and at 10% bodyfat. I am 235 at 10 % right now. Please do not spread that myth that no one can gain muscle past 200 lbs without the use of steroids. thats like saying the Holocaust never happened!

Patrick Arnold
12-30-2002, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by DRACOMACHINE
. Just do not take advantage of the newbies in the Iron game they are going to be the rulers of the gym someday, lets not have them telling our grand kids that the only way a man could bench 300 lbs is by taking steroids. Shoot I never took them and I benched over 300 lbs when I was 15, over 400 when I was 17 without Pro-anything.


I totally believe that you have to lift seriously for at least a couple of years, probably more, before you should consider steroids or precursors. That is what the market for this stuff is supposed to be - experienced guys who have hit plateaus and are serious about their training and physique goals

DRACOMACHINE
12-30-2002, 06:43 PM
I agree with you, Hell I know there is a market for Po-hormones just looking on this board I believe 80 % of them are using it. I respect you and bill and the guy from syntrax you guys seem to be on the front as far as the battle for supplements goes. Good luck to you guys with this banning thing.

guitarlifter
12-30-2002, 09:16 PM
Dracomachine, it sounds like you had/have something better than steriods-your genetics. I'm sorry, but if you weighed 190 when you started lifting and benched 300 at 15, then you truely are among the genetic elite, and don't try and argue otherwise. For people who aren't so gifted, it comes alot slower.

DRACOMACHINE
01-01-2003, 07:08 AM
I had been in the gym since I was 10. Lifting seriously when I was in middle school. I was younger than most kids in my class. I was 15 years old my junior year in highschool, 17 my first year in college. What difference does that make? alot, most 15 year olds are just starting out I had been training for football by weightlifting 7th 8th 9th 10th 11th grade. not genetics, an early start thats all. Did weights stunt my growth? possibly. I only got up to 6'2'' inches and did not get any taller since 8th grade, so that was probably the only draw back.I did not weigh 190 until I was 15. Genetics is an excuse for people to stay where they are at, hell even Jared the subway guy threw the genetics excuse out the window, how about you!

Patrick Arnold
01-01-2003, 11:42 AM
What a nice mature and pleasant thread this is............

..............just screaming for some jackass to come in and ruin it.

guitarlifter
01-01-2003, 09:52 PM
You know, you're right. I've been stuck at 5'9.5'' since 8th grade, but now that I've thrown the "genetics excuse" out the window, I just know I can reach 6' by mid march. Hell, while I'm at it I might even add a couple inches to my penis, now that my genetics won't get in the way anymore.

Stez
01-02-2003, 02:54 AM
draco I don't use the genetics excuse, but it sounds like u do **** a lot easier than most people. That's what makes some people the football stars in highschool, and others the soccer/tennis/acedemics.

When i say 'easier' i mean in a shorter period of time - not any less dedication/intensity etc.

Young people don't like waiting for things, which is why they go for PH's. I haven't taken PH's yet - I'm 20. I think that the attitude of people my age is that 3-5 years in the gym is too long to see some great changes.

I've been training for 2 years but seriously and educatedly only for about 6months. I've been debating with myself for months on whether I should use 1-t or not, and after I make a decision, a month later I'll swing the other way.

I guess I don't have any real point to this post, was just giving the point of view of a young BB'er on the point of PH's. I have done quite a lot of research (although a lot I have forgotten already) on PH's and if I were to use them I would just be using 1-t with nothing else.

I've posted a ph horror stories thread topic so hopefully we'll get some info to kick some sense into us kids :)

I'm a patient person and don't mind puting the long hours/months/years in at the gym, but even so, every now and then I feel the "**** this. I need an edge, an express lane" and consider PH's. Just the nature of the human psyche I guess - if the option was never there then it wouldn't even come into effect , but once the option is within arms reach then the thought is quite hard to shake, even for the most patient.

MrTrap
01-02-2003, 09:41 AM
Draco isn't saying everybody will reach the same size and strength. He's just saying everybody can make a lot of progress from whatever their starting point. Ya know what the young guys have to do? Squat. Deadlift. How many young guys have we seen post they want to use PHs but they don't even mention doing these lifts? Even those that take, when they list progress it is just for bench or maybe a few upper body lifts. Guys, if you want to gain weight you gotta work the big muscles. Your legs and back are so much bigger than your chest and arms. Wanna gain weight? Do full squats and work the poundage up, do some heavy ass deadlifts, eat everything your mom or cafeteria puts down in front of you and go back for more. If you aren't already doing this, then you won't be able to get the most out of PHs so why take any risks?

This has been going on since long before PHs. Hell when I started, we would do presses, curls, bench, and maybe some rows. We all did that for years and gained diddly. When some of us got talked into trying powerlifting, our weight shot up. Why? Squats and deadlifts. We had to do them, and we gained fast.

DRACOMACHINE
01-02-2003, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by guitarlifter
You know, you're right. I've been stuck at 5'9.5'' since 8th grade, but now that I've thrown the "genetics excuse" out the window, I just know I can reach 6' by mid march. Hell, while I'm at it I might even add a couple inches to my penis, now that my genetics won't get in the way anymore.

Being short and having no penis has nothing to do with weights. It is too simple to say "Well you can't gain large amounts of muscle without genetics or drugs"! I wasn't benching 300 when I was ten years old. I remember at 10 I was happy to put the quarters on the bar and lift it. 185 lb bench when I was twelve. With your whole theory of genetics I might of well just quit lifting because I was so freaking weak! But no I kept at it and gained every year, Who knows if My shoulders would hold up maybe I can crack the 500 mark but for now I am up and down in the 400 area! But I wont blame genetics for my injuries, I blame my injuries from football and not wanting shoulder surgery. Why did you get upset in the first place? Enlightening you by telling you you can gain strength and size if you work hard enough? If you have been at a platue for a while switch things up, don't throw in the towel and blame your parents for poor genetics.

DRACOMACHINE
01-02-2003, 12:55 PM
This has been going on since long before PHs. Hell when I started, we would do presses, curls, bench, and maybe some rows. We all did that for years and gained diddly. When some of us got talked into trying powerlifting, our weight shot up. Why? Squats and deadlifts. We had to do them, and we gained fast.

I agree here, I remember when Haney was on the cover of Muscle and Fitness after his third Olympia. Me and my friends were inspired to try and do whatever it took to gain. Weider was pushing the basic Powerlifting moves, also incorporated some isolation exersizes. But Squats and Bench have always been the two main exersizes I ever did. In fact I can not remember when the last leg workout was I did not do squats in.

But as STEZ posted above, I know! I am not that OLD, I remember what it was like as a Teenager. I was strong but not naturaly big like my other linemen. I was 190 by my junior/senior year. Everyone else was in the 200+zone. I wanted to gain weight fast but it still took a while. Graduated in 1990 at 190, 1991 got up to 220, 1992 up to 230, 1993 up t0 245, 1994 up to 255, 1995 up to 275. Gaining weight after 250 wasn't hard my metabolism was so slow it was cake. Metabolism is key, it is like a heavy round bolder hard to move but onece it does it keeps going until you stop it. Be it fast or slow. Gain or lose!

1fast400
01-02-2003, 01:02 PM
One of the worst things about the internet is that idiots have the ability to get information out very fast. My point being that a "newbie" can go post on 15 boards within 20 minutes. Spread his ignorant post everywhere. On a large scale, meaning all users of PH, I seriously doubt most will fall into the totally stupid group (although there will be a good amount in just the "plain stupid" department). I think it is easy for the %'s to get thrown off. Looking at the numbers, I'd say the group that uses PH in a somewhat smart fashion outnumbers the total idiots, the total idiots just post more often. :)


If you don't believe this, look at the titles on 5 message boards. Rarely will you see a topic that goes into anything real ground breaking. It is mostly..."what does creatine do".

DRACOMACHINE
01-02-2003, 01:19 PM
There are some pro-hormone wiz's on this board. Smart enough to come up with their home made transdermals for pro-hormones and Fina. These guys are doing what they do and I have no problem with that.

As I said earlier this thread was not to those individuals with the knowledge and experience. It was to the, Newbie, Just started lifting 3 months ago, need to look like Mr. Olympia by springbreak, Everything I have tried, isnt working.

As Patrick arnold pointed out it is not so much a matter of age but a matter of experience. I agreed with him. Then someone got mad and blamed genetics for his penis and things went crazy from there.

I know there are sticky's for nebies to read yet they still bypass them. I was hoping to catch a few and put them on another path until they are ready for the decision to use or not use.

1fast400
01-02-2003, 01:47 PM
Didn't you know that creatine is steroids?

Person
01-03-2003, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by DRACOMACHINE
I hope you do not really believe this. No as I stated before I am currently not 275, If you check my posts at all in the last 3 years you would know I was a football player and needed to keep my weight at a higher level. But I was not a fat football player. Sure I had size 36 inch waist but It wasn't what you would consider fat. Anyone who thinks once you get to 200 lbs you need to take steroids to get any bigger scares the *uck out of me. Maybe bigger at 3% bodyfat but there are plent of non steroid users out there above 230 and at 10% bodyfat. I am 235 at 10 % right now. Please do not spread that myth that no one can gain muscle past 200 lbs without the use of steroids. thats like saying the Holocaust never happened!

Where did I say anywhere you needed steroids to gain muscle after 200lbs? No seriously where? I said it is much harder and if you'd like to debate that point I'd be happy to. One of the reason ppl take PHs is because it is hard, but not impossible, to gain a tons of mass.

Also, you say you cut to 183 from 275 (your weight for football). If you cut this much weight in let's say a year (you didn't say how long but I presume a year at the most, I may be wrong), there would more than likely be excess skin isn't that right? I mean maybe you were pretty big and cut a decent amount of weight, but 275-183? That sounds like somebody who went on Jenny Craig or some crap.

And yes 185 bench at 12 is pretty damn good. You had damn good genetics if this is true- to argue otherwise would be ludicrous. If you look at the BFS Standards, not that they are the all-knowing or the exact stadards, you would easily be an All-State lifter at 12 with your claims. Stop being rediculously humble and/or lying- whichever you happen to be doing.

seanconnery
01-04-2003, 02:33 AM
If you're saying that PH supplementation in adolescence won't help, I would have to disagree. There's no way in hell one could have the same amount of free test running in the body at ANY age as compared to someone in the middle of a 1-test/4-ad cycle. So what if your test levels don't drop till you're in your late twenties? The supplementation will, comparatively, make less difference, yes, but that is not saying that the PH or juice won't do anything for you. Don't get me wrong; your post was great, but the argument about test levels just isn't contextually valid. IMHO, if you've got a solid 4 - 5 years behind you in lifting (like Railz) but are still in your teens, but have researched well the topic, evaluated the risk and stay away from aromatizing compounds (just my opinion - don't wanna risk fusing those growth plates now, do we?), there's nothing wrong with PH/juicing. Just don't do anything stupid like OD or run a 2-year cycle, or let the media catch wind of it.

DRACOMACHINE
01-04-2003, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by Person
Where did I say anywhere you needed steroids to gain muscle after 200lbs? No seriously where? I said it is much harder and if you'd like to debate that point I'd be happy to. One of the reason ppl take PHs is because it is hard, but not impossible, to gain a tons of mass.

Also, you say you cut to 183 from 275 (your weight for football). If you cut this much weight in let's say a year (you didn't say how long but I presume a year at the most, I may be wrong), there would more than likely be excess skin isn't that right? I mean maybe you were pretty big and cut a decent amount of weight, but 275-183? That sounds like somebody who went on Jenny Craig or some crap.

And yes 185 bench at 12 is pretty damn good. You had damn good genetics if this is true- to argue otherwise would be ludicrous. If you look at the BFS Standards, not that they are the all-knowing or the exact stadards, you would easily be an All-State lifter at 12 with your claims. Stop being rediculously humble and/or lying- whichever you happen to be doing.

When you hit 200 and above it is very hard to gain muscle which is why most IBFF bodybuilders take steroids/gh/etc. Most naturals who are even 220 or 230 cut are often in their late 20's at the very earliest.

This was your quote! As far as loose skin it was not that bad, my skin eventualy tightend up since I wasn't to old when I did it.

However Do not doubt me I have no reason to lie. I am (Rocco) Jeff Paffumi, I went to Apache Junction High School in Arizona, Played football At Mesa Community College in Arizona, Transferd to Western New Mexico University. I led every Bench test on every team I played for. Since we are all only seperated by say six degrees You can varify what I say. I am still on the internet in some older stories it depends on what search engine you look under. Also I live in St. Augustine Florida Right now. I am fine backing up anything I put on this board. Yet you are right life below 200 is not good for me that is why I will no longer compete at that weight. Now I am 235 at 10% and feeling fine. Any other info you need! It will not take long before I am 240 At 10%. Is this easy? It depends, How much are you willing to put fourth to make your gains. I never claimed I was superman, Because honestly What I did was not unreal or even unheard of. Don't call me a liar!

DRACOMACHINE
01-04-2003, 07:12 AM
Originally posted by seanconnery
If you're saying that PH supplementation in adolescence won't help, I would have to disagree. There's no way in hell one could have the same amount of free test running in the body at ANY age as compared to someone in the middle of a 1-test/4-ad cycle. So what if your test levels don't drop till you're in your late twenties? The supplementation will, comparatively, make less difference, yes, but that is not saying that the PH or juice won't do anything for you. Don't get me wrong; your post was great, but the argument about test levels just isn't contextually valid. IMHO, if you've got a solid 4 - 5 years behind you in lifting (like Railz) but are still in your teens, but have researched well the topic, evaluated the risk and stay away from aromatizing compounds (just my opinion - don't wanna risk fusing those growth plates now, do we?), there's nothing wrong with PH/juicing. Just don't do anything stupid like OD or run a 2-year cycle, or let the media catch wind of it.

As I said before I was never directing this thread to any experienced lifters or supplement users, It was always aimed at the unexperienced ones who sought an overnight miracle. I never said Pro-hormones did not work, Or made any remark bashing them. It was simply work out reach your potential before using anything. Then when you get to a proper level, decide where you want to go from there.

seanconnery
01-04-2003, 07:19 AM
Well, we have some differences in philosophy there, but okay. :D
Peace

Person
01-05-2003, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by DRACOMACHINE
When you hit 200 and above it is very hard to gain muscle which is why most IBFF bodybuilders take steroids/gh/etc. Most naturals who are even 220 or 230 cut are often in their late 20's at the very earliest.

This was your quote! As far as loose skin it was not that bad, my skin eventualy tightend up since I wasn't to old when I did it.

However Do not doubt me I have no reason to lie. I am (Rocco) Jeff Paffumi, I went to Apache Junction High School in Arizona, Played football At Mesa Community College in Arizona, Transferd to Western New Mexico University. I led every Bench test on every team I played for. Since we are all only seperated by say six degrees You can varify what I say. I am still on the internet in some older stories it depends on what search engine you look under. Also I live in St. Augustine Florida Right now. I am fine backing up anything I put on this board. Yet you are right life below 200 is not good for me that is why I will no longer compete at that weight. Now I am 235 at 10% and feeling fine. Any other info you need! It will not take long before I am 240 At 10%. Is this easy? It depends, How much are you willing to put fourth to make your gains. I never claimed I was superman, Because honestly What I did was not unreal or even unheard of. Don't call me a liar!


Yeah I said harder, not impossible. Are you illiterate or just a dumbass?

Debaser
01-05-2003, 12:58 PM
Your're telling me you're not a genetic freak when you could bench press 400 pounds by the age of 17?

DRACOMACHINE
01-05-2003, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by Person
Yeah I said harder, not impossible. Are you illiterate or just a dumbass?

What is with the insults. I did not bash anyone. You seem to be worked up about something. You did say it was not impossible, yet you implied I was a liar. There is no need for this to become a personal attack on me. If you just need help getting somewhere we both are on the east coast, If you want I can train you. You would be amazed how much the Human body can achieve with proper training.

DRACOMACHINE
01-05-2003, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by Debaser
Your're telling me you're not a genetic freak when you could bench press 400 pounds by the age of 17?

A Gentetic freak wouldn't have to have busted his butt in the gym for six years before benching 400lbs. I have not taken even a week off since I was 10 years old. Now if I was just some 17 year old kid who walks into the gym for the first time and puts up a 400lb bench yes I would beleive him to be a genetic freak. Yes genes do play are part but not the whole part. I followed the path myself and had to work through the platues. When going from a 95lb bench at 10 yrs old to 0ver 300 at 15 yrs old my junior year in Highschool, I was one of 6 guys on my team benching over 300. When I was a freshman in college I finally benched 400. There were other freshman in college benching 400 lbs. I was 17 the first half of my freshman year in college, then turned 18 in december. WHen you are surrounded by guys pushing up weights similar to you, you do not think genes you think I am going to outlift that bast*rd. It is a competition. My junior college years I was no where near the top bencher in the nation. Hell a nose guard from Phoenix College was benching in the 500lb+zone. It is those guys out there that keep me from feeling blessed with what I had to work for. Yet here I am 20 years of straight training, Never reached 500 lbs on the bench. Yet considering myself a genetic freak for benching in the 400 area, no I do not.

DRACOMACHINE
01-05-2003, 02:59 PM
Dan Faquir = Dan Faquir, Dan Factor, Danny Divine, Danimal
Some of you fans of wrestling might remember Dan Faquir. We went to the same highschool. He was two grades behind me. My senior year testing for football I benched 345lbs. I left highschool benching 365. Yet Dan Faquir benched 415 by the time he graduated. What does this have to do with anything. Well I am showing that the people around me in Arizona were benching the same as me. That year Dan Benched 415 was his junior year. He is two months younger than me. He held himself back in 8th grade so he would be better at wrestling when He got in highschool. He was a 3 time state champ. And as good as he was, he still wasn't the best from our school at wrestling. We had two 4 time state champs. Maybe it was something in the Arizona water?

DRACOMACHINE
01-05-2003, 03:14 PM
"Rat" Gilbert Jenkins 445 lb bench WNMU
Jim Trischan 450 lb bench MCC, Villanova, WNMU
(G-Ball) Gerald Ball 435 bench, WNMU
Lon Racamara 425lb Bench E.A.C.C., WNMU
Bruce Barro 445lb Bench M.C.C, Western Illinois
James Macall 440lb bench Mesa State Col., WNMU
Jason Dagel 445lb Bench Glendale C.C., WNMU
"Monie" Filimone Angelou 435 lb Bench, Valdosta st., WNMU
Brett Mcleod 415 lb bench, WNMU
David Griffin 415lb bench (only weighed 188lbs), WNMU
Jason Calhoun 435lb bench,M.C.C., WNMU
Others over 400 I was surrounded by.
Xavier Zuniga,WNMU
Mike Delatorre, WNMU
Ramone Diaz, WNMU
Rusty James, M.C.C.,UofArizona
Aaron Earnsberger, M.C.C., S.Utah, NMSU.
Rusty Hendrix, E.A.C.C, WNMU
Jason Ney, M.C.C., Portland, WNMU
Chuck Griffin, M.C.C.
Roy Lopez, A.J.H.S., M.C.C., UNLV, NMHU.

These are just off the top of my head. When you are surrounder by so many people lifting similar heavy weights you tend not to feel genetically gifted.

Biggin
01-05-2003, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by DRACOMACHINE
Why did you get upset in the first place? Enlightening you by telling you you can gain strength and size if you work hard enough? If you have been at a platue for a while switch things up, don't throw in the towel and blame your parents for poor genetics.

Tired of seeing this genetics **** everywhere. Good posts Draco, good thread. Even if you believe you have "poor genetics", so ****ing what? Bodybuilding is about the progression, and if you ever stop trying to attain goals and think you're "done", you were never a bodybuilder to begin with and you have no concept of work and struggle. If anything, the higher difficulty one faces with poor genetics will make the journey that much more satisfying bc you are aware of the even higher level of effort you must put forth. It's just a matter of time, we can all be muscled and healthy people. I wouldn't want this **** to come easy because I would lose interest, nor would I ever want to be totally satisfied in reaching long term goals for the same reason. People also need to realize they cannot and should not compare themselves with anyone, as people are obviously much too different. There's always someone bigger/stronger, just as there is always someone smaller/weaker.

MrTrap
04-06-2003, 02:14 PM
btt

IronMike
04-06-2003, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by DRACOMACHINE
Try working out on a consistent basis no weeks off ever!

Good post I agree with everything you said, except this.

LakeMountD
04-06-2003, 06:13 PM
oh damn i didnt even see this thread! i just posted one exactly like this not too long ago ;).. but i agree with you all the way.. its ridculous..

Flawless
04-06-2003, 06:55 PM
Great post!!! But i have to say if teens are stupied enough to try it let them. Its there bodies that they are fu**ing up. They should have did some homework before. Thats my 2 cents

bduser2348
04-06-2003, 07:06 PM
great thread draco. as a teen in the weight game its sometimes hard for me seeing newbies jump on the supplement bandwagon before there first workout. congrats on your successes.

DRACOMACHINE
04-09-2003, 07:23 AM
Wow, never thought I'd see this thread pop up again. Pat Arnold enlightened many by his statements about Teens and Pro-hormones. He basically said that yes, beggining teens who are new to the weight game should hold off and reach their potential before deciding to take pro-hormones. Yet those teens who have been lifting for years would be fine taking them. I myself think that it would be a good idea for most younger guys to wait, but if Pat says they are safe as long as they are experienced, well he's the expert. That is a sincere comment, because this Pro-hormone movement has been started by Pat, and there is probably no one else with the amount of information about pro-hormone science than Pat. Just remember kids two months of lifting is not enough time to reach your potential.

MrTrap
08-08-2003, 12:25 PM
btt for TheBear.

muscularinferno
05-18-2010, 09:42 PM
agreed drac, to many kids are using these days

rushki
05-18-2010, 09:50 PM
Good post man, I tell the same to all of the people i meet, just give it time. Wish i could say i bench 400+, but i have time :].

EDIT: HOLY SWEET BUMPAGE JESUS :O

smt1
05-18-2010, 11:54 PM
Strong bump bro.

kobekobe
05-19-2010, 12:55 AM
........

9889
03-01-2011, 07:38 AM
Unfortunately, if someone is in their early twenties and is a competitive bodybuilder or weightlifter, or strongman or whatever he is not gonna wait around till 25 to start assisting his training with hormonal supplements while he gets his ass handed to him in meets and whatnot. What happens if he tears his shoulder on his 25th birthday and his career is shot?

Seriously, I understand your good intentions. I just think you have to try to see the real world for what it is, and not be so idealistic. You cannot just say to someone under 25 that they should not take this stuff, end of story. You have to analyze the pros and cons for that particular person. In many situations you may be right, it may be the prudent thing to wait until at least 25 years of age. In other cases it may not be

Lots of people hate me here cuz i don't see things in black and white. I raise points that they find offensive. These guys remind me of Doctor Zayuss from Planet of the Apes who covers his ears and screams when Cornelius tries to show him evidence of prior human civilization


i have never used a Ph but have been thinking about it.. you are completly right if we are competitive bodybuilders and everyone is using somthing to get them to the next level it leavs us pretty much with no choice competition is not very clean and cant wait around to be 25

cobfab12
03-01-2011, 07:50 AM
another strong bump

EqualDispersion
03-01-2011, 07:58 AM
Strong bump. But I'm actually glad I caught this. It was a solid debate.

CajunPballer
03-01-2011, 08:42 AM
agreed drac, to many kids are using these days

Ohh the irony.

$

DRACOMACHINE
03-01-2011, 09:06 AM
All I can say is you need to know what your hormone levels are.

Get blood work done, and check them at least once a year.

Pro-hormones have pretty much fallen by the way side. There are things out there still, but not as plentiful as back when this thread was started.

Be careful bumping really old threads, mods get upset with that.