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J.Bo
06-29-2006, 08:54 AM
Hi everyone. I'm trying to figure out the easiest way to explain where I'm coming from. Ok. I'm 33 and I'm NOT new to all this diet and exercise stuff. Though I am NEW to alot of this ratio stuff. I've been "bodybuilding" for about 6 years consistently. And I've always tried to diet in one form or another . Though this has been a major learning process thru the years. I always eat evry 2-3 hrs. I bought the BFFM say 5 mo or so ago. This is when I learned that my ratios were way off. I always kept my protein high (1-1.5/BW) but carbs too low and fat too low except for times I'd over do it on the nuts (it's hard to stop lol ). Anyways I weigh 126.8 right now at 19.65% BF. I'd like to be more like 17% which would bring me down to 122 (did the math) then go from there. I just feel like it's not coming off the way it used to. I'm shooting for about 1800 cal as my maintenance is around 2200. Though some days I'm ending up at only 1600. I just started using the fitday which has helped a great deal. I'm not sure I guess, exactly what my ratio should be to cut the excess BF down or what's missing. Maybe 45p/30c/25f ??? I just feel like I'm not losing. The scale won't budge and I'm not someone who is really going to gain much more muscle at this point. I don't want to drag this out too long but it's hard to get all the info you may need. Please help me I want to hit my best this year before the summers gone... Thanx

emunah
06-29-2006, 12:49 PM
Ratios don't mean anything...you want to pay attention to the GRAMS of waht you're eating. How many grams of protein, fat, carbs, etc? WHat food are you eating and what is your training?

WillDeadliftForFood
06-29-2006, 02:24 PM
^^^^^^

Example of daily diet? What's your routine look like? How often do you change your routine?

sherdi
06-29-2006, 07:49 PM
Hello! :)

Like Emunah says, ratios are highly inaccurate because they are dependent on your calorie range. You are much better off going for something that takes into consideration of your body weight. Something like this would be good:

1-1.5 grams of protein per body weight = 127grams - 190grams
0.3 - 0.4 grams of protein per body weight = 40-50grams
The rest of your calories are made up with carbs (this could workout to be about 1.5grams per body weight depending on what calorie range you are hoping for).

Try to eat as many fibrous veggies as you can. Don't forget fruit too! Good luck! :)

J.Bo
06-29-2006, 09:13 PM
Ok well this is what I did for today according to fitday. Pro- 44% carb 35% fat21% which equaled out to Pro- 185 gr carb 174 gr and fat 40 gr. Though I think they count veggies as carbs which I don't and I think they also count the protein in breads and grains etc. which I don't either so the carb and protein are probably a tad lower in that case. My calories total was 1778. I workout on a 2 day on 1 day off routine straight thru the week. Shoulder & tris , back & calves, off, chest & bis, quads and hams, off, start over again.. I usually do 3-4 exercises on the lrg. muscle w/ 3-4 sets of 8- 12 and about 3 exercises on sml. muscle same sets. w/ 30 - 45 min cardio after. I'm working on getting more cardio in and doing it on off days w/ abs. I am pretty muscular just so you know.
This is how my diet usually goes.
Meal 1: whey shake w/ glutamine & water and a whole grain eng. muffin w/ cal. free butter spray.approx 2.5 hr- 3 Meal 2: 3 egg whites 1 whole and 1/2 cup oats w/ 2 tbsp. coffeemate 1 Splenda . Go to the Gym. Lift 45 min-1 hr cardio 30- 45 min drink Whey isolate w/ glutamine ,water & 1.5 - 2 tbsp. sugar. 1 hr to 90 min later eat Meal 3: Turkey burger w/ 1 slice fat free cheese or 3-4 oz. broil or grill chix breast w/ fresh steamed green beans and 1/2 cup brown Basmati or sweet potato, MEAL 4: Sometimes I eat a bar under 200 cals. or a few hard boiled egg whites maybe 2 stalks celery. Meal 5: (dinner) Usually same idea as meal 3 but w/o the carb although if I decide to do a high day I will. Then before bed (meal 6) I have a 1/2 cup lowfat CC and tbsp Nat. p-butter plain or on 2 celery stalks. Hope this info will help you help me Thanx again

emunah
06-30-2006, 07:00 AM
Well, you should count those protein/carbs...your body can't tell the difference.

Your diet is a bit hard to read the way you've written it....

Your training is not ideal. You're doing a muscle group split, which isn't the best way to train. How long have you been doing that? What exercises and sets/reps are you doing?

barnetjs
06-30-2006, 09:34 AM
like emunah just said - you should count it all- if you are counting.
Although veggies are comprised of mostly water and like 4 cups of spin are 25 calories - they are still 25 calories - all of these add up. I think I said this in another post and it is a good way to think of it.
You are packing your suitcase for a trip - you keep throwing this bathing suit (that weighs nothing) and these socks then more underware etc - all of these things by themselves weigh NOTHING - put them together and you can't even pick up your suitcase!

J.Bo
06-30-2006, 02:16 PM
Well, you should count those protein/carbs...your body can't tell the difference.

Your diet is a bit hard to read the way you've written it....

Your training is not ideal. You're doing a muscle group split, which isn't the best way to train. How long have you been doing that? What exercises and sets/reps are you doing?

Why is my training not ideal??? I don't get that at all. I have built quite a body doing this there is a husband and wife that compete at my gym and he is a writer for a few muscle mags they pretty much do the same split plus many people on this site do the same time of split also. I already wrote my set and rep ranges the last time if you read it. I usually do 3-4 sets 0f 8-12 reps. I do anything from incline DB for chest to cable crossovers or pec flye to dips, For shoulders it's usually Db or military presses to lat raises, reverse pec flye, front raises, bentover DB or cable flye. I could go on all day w/ the different exercises I do because I always change it up. And I don't do all these is one workout though this is an idea of some of the types of exercises I do. I'm really no beginner at this.
Now about the diet the reason I don't count the protein in breads is because it is not a complete protein though I still count the total calories that they add up to. The same with the veggies I don't count them as a carb because I basically just count the starches and sugars for those have the greatest effect on blood sugar though the calories are always included.

emunah
06-30-2006, 03:41 PM
You're doing a typical bb split. It is outdated. You're only working each muscle once a week. Its been shown that if you keep volume and intensity the same, by increasing the frequency you get better results. Full body or upper/lower splits are idea.

Also, the way you have it set up you are overtraining your arms and shoulders, since they are worked when you work back and chest. You can't isolate a muscle the way you are trying to. Its impossible. Basically you're working your shoulders and arms three times a week, your chest, back, and legs only once a week. Its imbalanced.

You shouldn't be changing your exercises so often. Muscles grow via progressive overload: if you're always changing you don't give them a chance to adapt and grow within that parameter. Pick a routine and do it for 4-6 weeks. THEN switch.

Your problem is your routine.

As for incomplete vs complete proteins, once your body breaks it down it doesn't matter. An amino acid is an amino acid. Your body takes a long time to metabolize foods...what you're eating in meal 1 is still being metabolized by the time you get to meal 2-3... so incomplete vs complete doesn't matter.

I don't see any EFAs in your diet. I would suggest taking some fish oil.

J.Bo
06-30-2006, 04:43 PM
You're doing a typical bb split. It is outdated. You're only working each muscle once a week. Its been shown that if you keep volume and intensity the same, by increasing the frequency you get better results. Full body or upper/lower splits are idea.

Also, the way you have it set up you are overtraining your arms and shoulders, since they are worked when you work back and chest. You can't isolate a muscle the way you are trying to. Its impossible. Basically you're working your shoulders and arms three times a week, your chest, back, and legs only once a week. Its imbalanced.

You shouldn't be changing your exercises so often. Muscles grow via progressive overload: if you're always changing you don't give them a chance to adapt and grow within that parameter. Pick a routine and do it for 4-6 weeks. THEN switch.

Your problem is your routine.

As for incomplete vs complete proteins, once your body breaks it down it doesn't matter. An amino acid is an amino acid. Your body takes a long time to metabolize foods...what you're eating in meal 1 is still being metabolized by the time you get to meal 2-3... so incomplete vs complete doesn't matter.

I don't see any EFAs in your diet. I would suggest taking some fish oil.
I have to some what disagree. There is no perfect split in the BB world. I don't know how you can say what I'm doing is wrong. There is NO ONE WAY to train. I put on over 5 lbs muscle this past year so if I was over training that would not happen. I never work a sore muscle. You are always hitting other muscle indirectly when you train any one muscle. I don't see how the upper body lower body would be better or any different really.Plus many people are training each body part twice a week for growth these days hence DC training . Maybe I don't know exactly how that upper/lower split works but if I am doing upper than lower more than once a week than how exactly is that better. I do take fish oil 3 X's a day plus like I wrote I also do a tbsp of nat p-butter or nuts I alsotake high potency multi,Vita C,glucosamine &calcium. And you are not going to build muscle off the proteins in bread and beans.Why do you think there are no vegan bodybulders???
Maybe instead of pointing out how I'm doing everything wrong you could be more specific about what you think would work better. You haven't given me one concrete example of anything just vague inspecific advice. Or better yet maybe you could post a pic for me just so I can see an example of the results of this kind of training you claim is "better"

Fit_Darling
06-30-2006, 07:26 PM
As with J.Bo, I have not been counting the protein in sources such as bread and other incomplete protein sources, unless I'm combining two incomplete proteins together at one time. Calorie counting with veggies have also been something I neglect to do, because I believe you can never really have too much greeen, and that too much broc**** isnt really the cause of excess fat.

But...even though all what is mentioned above seems trivial, I realize that it can possibly be one of the reasons why the BF% is at 19, not 17. Can anyone share their own personal experiences/successes that relate to J.Bo's situation? Im very curious to know!

emunah
06-30-2006, 07:26 PM
There are vegan bodybuilders.

You asked for advice, and I'm offering it. If you want to read about how bb splits (which I call any split that works a muscle only once a week as a dominant group), you have to go to the basic research. Read the big wigs: Mel Sif, Lyle Mcdonald, Brian Haycock, etc. Read about periodization, over-reaching, the physiological basics of muscle building, and even the history of bodybuilding and how those types of splits were originally developed and why.

If you want a specific recommendation, what i would recommend is either an upper/lower split or a full body routine. Something like:
upper
lower
off
upper
lower
off
off

Or, full body three times a week. Muscles grow via frequency, intensity, and volume. If you keep the intensity and volume the same, but increase the frequency, you will achieve more gains. Given progressive overload. The difference between THIS method and yours is that this way makes each muscle group dominant twice a week, not as accessory. Benching twice a week, for example.

You want to balance your push/pull and horizontal/vertical movements in your upper body or you risk being unbalanced. Again, another reason to have a set routine. If you are constantly changing, you can end up with strength imbalances and injury. Likewise, constant changing doesn't allow for periodization, which is arguably one of THE most important mechanisms for muscle growth.

5 lbs a year is good achievement. I never said what you're doing DOESN'T work, just that it isn't the best choice.

Just trying to help.

As for diet, again, your meals take hours to metabolize. An amino acid is an amino acid, and once it hits the GI it doesn't matter...it will combine with meals you ate hours earlier.

I did miss the fish oil, if you mentioned it. That's excellent.

J.Bo
07-01-2006, 06:59 AM
Thanx Fit darling I appreciate the support. I agree about the veggies Tom Venuto says you can never really over do it on them.The reason my BF is at 19% is due to a few things but mainly I allowed myself to many "cheats" since the holidays I think my body was just exhausted from all my dieting thru the year and I just needed a break to let myself go a bit. Plus I just went to Fla. 6/2 and went a little crazy.I've been dieting since I got back except for one cheat on Father's day . I guess I just get impatient w/ the way my weight comes off sometimes. Like at 1st it will drop right away but then it will level off a bit and slow. And it seemed like I was stuck at the same weight for a week at this point. BY the WAY my weight did drop finally. I was 124.7 lbs this morn.

Anyways Emunah it's not that I don't want the help you are giving me but I just wasn't sure that was what I was looking for. I have made some great gains over the years as I've been bodybuilding for about a solid 6 or 7 years. And have been trying to educate myself thru out that time via reading and talking to people. Anyways I wasn't trying to be defensive I guess my issue was that I am not looking to really make anymore gains at this point.(I'm pretty muscular already) I'm looking to cut. If I was planning on trying to gain I would need to be in a calorie surplus to do so. But I'm trying to cut so I'm working on a calorie deficit. Plus I know that when you are cutting you are going to inevitably lose some muscle in the process. I'm going to try to keep this to a bare minimum w/ my diet as much I possibly can.I just thought maybe my diet needed a little critiquing not so much my routine. Though if you had suggested something more like upping sets or reps while lowering weight or shortening rest between sets or shortening the entire workout in general even doing more HIIT. That I could understand but you were suggesting to change my whole routine, to drop body fat??? That to me is more of a diet issue not a routine issue. I could see if I was a beginner that would be different. So I am totally open minded to the idea of trying something new. In fact a friend at my gym just told me how he was going to try the upper/ lower split to change things up. I feel I have a fairly good wealth of knowledge when it comes to exercise. Though I am always willing to learn. I don't believe my training split is "outdated" though since many people are still working on it. Plus this is also the same training split Tom Venuto(nat pro BBer) outlined for advanced bodybuilders in his book BFFM. So I am still going to research the upper/ lower split still. And I might give it a whirl in the future and see what happens. Thanx

emunah
07-01-2006, 08:31 PM
No problem. :) I use the word 'outdated' because research has since shown the limitations of that type of routine. It just hasn't caught up in the gym as much because people do what 'everyone' does, and what 'everyone' does isn't usually based on research but on what they see others do.

I agree that losing bodyfat is a function of diet rather than training. Although I would stress that it is important to keep the intensity of your routine or you end up losing more muscle than you would want.

best of luck.

J.Bo
07-02-2006, 10:53 AM
No problem. :) I use the word 'outdated' because research has since shown the limitations of that type of routine. It just hasn't caught up in the gym as much because people do what 'everyone' does, and what 'everyone' does isn't usually based on research but on what they see others do.

I agree that losing bodyfat is a function of diet rather than training. Although I would stress that it is important to keep the intensity of your routine or you end up losing more muscle than you would want.

best of luck.
Ok just for the record I DO NOT "do what every one else does" In fact I have been thru quite a few different routines over the years and have done my own research. For starters I used to hit 3 muscles a day 2 X's a week(4 day WO) then I did 2 muscles a day 2 x's a week(6 day WO) Then I did research things and found that it would be more benificial to me to hit them each once a week. As soon as I switch to doing that my body changed and grew substantially. So I don't know how you can make a generalized conclusion that "what everyones does" is not based on research. How do you know what other people do. Just because they don't do it your way??? And if you have done your research like you claim you'll see there is MUCH research backing many different styles of training. Basically it comes down to what you prefer and what works for you. It almost sounds like maybe you haven't tried much else so you can't speak from enough experience of having tried other training styles? In that case it would be hard for you to make a statement as you have. Have you ever tried a split like mine? As for me I have had much experience w/ other routines. Of course not all of them though that would be somewhat impossible anyhow. Just the simple fact that you sound as if there is only ONE WAY to do this is pretty narrow minded and ignorant in my opinion. And more importantly RESULTS speak for themself. Don't mean to sound so harsh or argumentative but you start out by saying No Problem but then just jump to drawing conclusions again on what "everyones else does". Not everybody who seeks advice on this board knows Nothing.

girlinseattle
07-02-2006, 03:54 PM
Hi everyone. I'm trying to figure out the easiest way to explain where I'm coming from. Ok. I'm 33 and I'm NOT new to all this diet and exercise stuff. Though I am NEW to alot of this ratio stuff. I've been "bodybuilding" for about 6 years consistently. And I've always tried to diet in one form or another . Though this has been a major learning process thru the years. I always eat evry 2-3 hrs. I bought the BFFM say 5 mo or so ago. This is when I learned that my ratios were way off. I always kept my protein high (1-1.5/BW) but carbs too low and fat too low except for times I'd over do it on the nuts (it's hard to stop lol ). Anyways I weigh 126.8 right now at 19.65% BF. I'd like to be more like 17% which would bring me down to 122 (did the math) then go from there. I just feel like it's not coming off the way it used to. I'm shooting for about 1800 cal as my maintenance is around 2200. Though some days I'm ending up at only 1600. I just started using the fitday which has helped a great deal. I'm not sure I guess, exactly what my ratio should be to cut the excess BF down or what's missing. Maybe 45p/30c/25f ??? I just feel like I'm not losing. The scale won't budge and I'm not someone who is really going to gain much more muscle at this point. I don't want to drag this out too long but it's hard to get all the info you may need. Please help me I want to hit my best this year before the summers gone... Thanx


I don't think you're doing anything wrong... and you're training the best to your body's ability, and you know your body best. I think you're already at perfection... and maybe have to just accept it?

J.Bo
07-02-2006, 05:30 PM
I don't think you're doing anything wrong... and you're training the best to your body's ability, and you know your body best. I think you're already at perfection... and maybe have to just accept it?

Thanx Girlinseattle... Sometimes I think I just get impatient when I start dieting strict again. I want to lose it fast even though I know it's not that good to lose fast. But usually just when I think I'm not losing within the next day or so I end up dropping. I was 126.8 lbs at 19.65 % BF when I started this thread and now I'm 124.7 I'll have my hubby check my BF tomorrow morning to see what I'm losing exactly. That is hopefully making sure most of it is coming from fat and not muscle. Once I know that I can either continue on w/ my diet or fine tune it a bit like cutting out a few things , ya know. As for being at perfection??? NO WAY... Far from it. I definitely need to lean down some more and if I'm losing the fat as I plan then I at 122 lbs I'll be
17 % and decide where to go from there. That is if I'm happy or want to continue losing. Though it does get hard to stay low like that. Considering I'm 33. My body starts to crave everything in site. I think in a desperate plea to put on fat. I appreciate the response though...

LuckyDog
07-02-2006, 05:36 PM
J. Bo -


Going back to original post -

My initial thought is your carbs are too low to support your split - I do you split so I don't in anyway have an issue with a body part split - but I do believe you have to eat to support it (or do steriods).

My guess is you are training with a high level of volumn you body is bummed due to lack of resources to recover and you progress is stalling and your holding more fat then you would like.

You may have mentioned it earlier what does your week look like split wise and cardio wise - I am going to go back and look @ your diet


Edit:

You have alot of volumn and alot of cardio (nothing wrong with that)

If the goal is to strip away fat and hold the muscle

I would increase carbs to 45% and decrease the protein to 35% ( I don't count carb protein or veggies either) and at your body weight I would probably go with 1600 - 1800 (depending on where you have been - which looks like about 1600 based on what you posted)

I would lose the post lifting cardio and add some morning cardio - HR sprints probably fasted

J.Bo
07-03-2006, 07:54 AM
J. Bo -


Going back to original post -

My initial thought is your carbs are too low to support your split - I do you split so I don't in anyway have an issue with a body part split - but I do believe you have to eat to support it (or do steriods).

My guess is you are training with a high level of volumn you body is bummed due to lack of resources to recover and you progress is stalling and your holding more fat then you would like.

You may have mentioned it earlier what does your week look like split wise and cardio wise - I am going to go back and look @ your diet


Edit:

You have alot of volumn and alot of cardio (nothing wrong with that)

If the goal is to strip away fat and hold the muscle

I would increase carbs to 45% and decrease the protein to 35% ( I don't count carb protein or veggies either) and at your body weight I would probably go with 1600 - 1800 (depending on where you have been - which looks like about 1600 based on what you posted)

I would lose the post lifting cardio and add some morning cardio - HR sprints probably fasted

Ok... Now this is more what I was looking for someone who could give me some help. Thanks alot Luckydog. You are totally right about my progress stalling and holding more fat than I'd like. Do you really think increasing my carbs is going to help me strip away that excess fat I feel like I'm holding? I always thought when people are dieting down for shows or things like that (obviously I'm not looking to get that lean) I thought that they start by cutting their carbs down and raising the fat & protein? My carbs are probably way too low though but I guess I always have that fear in me w/ raising carbs too much ya know? You could totally be right though, I don't doubt that for one second. What about maybe cycling them? Like doing 3 days low (approx. 100 -135 gr carb) to 1 day high (200- 220 gr) and raising my cals. on the high day too. I am only getting in about 1600 cals a day like you said but sometimes it just seems so hard to eat enough. Like I think I eat alot already and at the end of the day I find I'm just below 1600 so I try to plan my before bed meal accordingly to at least level off my ratios and bring up my cals a bit. Usually 1/2 c CC and 1-2 tbsp. nat p-butter.So sometimes I think I'm not taking in enough to begin w/. My stomach growls even after I eat sometimes???
One more thing why do you think I should lose the post WO cardio? I always thought that this was one of those prime times to do cardio since I burnt off my glycogen stores lifting I'm more likely to burn fat at this point doing cardio? Is that not right? I am totally willing to do fasted cardio in the morn but why not both? Oh and do you think if I were to start doing the fasted cardio that I should at least either take maybe a sm. protein shake before w/ glutamine or maybe just glutamine? To help support the muscle while doing it so that my body is less likely to burn it. I've heard conflicting things about this in the past just wanted to see what you thought...

LuckyDog
07-03-2006, 08:15 AM
J. Bo - I think I love you :-)

I will start with the cardio - fasted am or post work best two times IMO - for the reasons you stated. When I do fasted am cardio (sprints to the top of my HR range) I chug some BCAAs first (do the BCAAs instead of the Glutamine) the protein would sort of undo the fasted part.

Alot of show prep does cut carbs way out. My coach doesn't - he also thinks cycling carbs is a big waste of time and doesn't make sense with a high volumn split. Carbs are as close to a steriod as natural atheletes get - so if you run them low you are taking away one of the more effective tools you body has. Personally I will have 45% carbs right up till I walk on stage - he wont even pull my carbs to deplete me during prep week.

When I started working with this coach I was carb cycling and I had lost some pounds - but I wasn't preserving the muscle as well and on the low days I was a horrible bitch. Now I just keep getting leaner and my hormones stay really even keel and I have energy to train hard even when my calories are pretty low precontest.

Some of the women he is currently working with are up around 3000 total calories and are adding muscle and tightening up (obviously pretty far out from shows still)

Carbs are amazing stuff if you use them right and EAT THE RIGHT ONES!!

Oatmeal
Sweet potatoe
Brown Rice
Beans
Barley
No Bread
No Pasta

terracotta
07-03-2006, 08:47 AM
Hello! :)

Like Emunah says, ratios are highly inaccurate because they are dependent on your calorie range. You are much better off going for something that takes into consideration of your body weight. Something like this would be good:

1-1.5 grams of protein per body weight = 127grams - 190grams
0.3 - 0.4 grams of protein per body weight = 40-50grams
The rest of your calories are made up with carbs (this could workout to be about 1.5grams per body weight depending on what calorie range you are hoping for).

Try to eat as many fibrous veggies as you can. Don't forget fruit too! Good luck! :)

just thought I would point out the typo..
should be .3 to .4 grams of fat per lb of bodyweight

J.Bo
07-03-2006, 09:12 AM
I think I love you too Luckydog (-; Yes Yes Yes finally someone is making some sense around here..lol Ok their are definitely some mistakes I'm making. I'm going to cut the whole grain english muffin out and I'm going to stop the protein bars. I just have to start planning a little better. I mainly eat these out of convienance and lack of imagination w/ diet. I cut dairy and fruit out all together already. Do you eat a startch carb right before bed or just maybe a protein and a EFA??? Also Do you have a suggestion on a type of branch chain aminos that would be good. Never really got into taking them. Maybe that's another mistake I made? I guess I thought that was one of those guy things??? My husband has some they are in pill form supposed to be time released? Here's what they are : Dymatize BCAA complex 2200 serve size 4 caps to be taken 2 pre PW & 2 Post WO. Ingredients for 4 caps is... Vit C 10 mg , Riboflavin 1.7mg ,Vit B6 1.5mg , and the aminos are : L-Leucine 1100 mg , L-Isoleucine 550mg , L-Valine 550mg. Would these be alright to take? Maybe I don't need the 2 maybe just 1 and a big glass of water 15 min before I start cardio. Then I'll just eat when I'm done. Like a whey shake and a carb? Then I'll eat my eggs and oats before I WO... How does that sound? Could you tell me what your stats are just so I can see our differences.I know we are close in age so that's good. What is your cal range when your cutting? Approx. carb intake in a day? You're the best....

Andrew.Cook
07-03-2006, 09:17 AM
Ok just for the record I DO NOT "do what every one else does" In fact I have been thru quite a few different routines over the years and have done my own research. For starters I used to hit 3 muscles a day 2 X's a week(4 day WO) then I did 2 muscles a day 2 x's a week(6 day WO) Then I did research things and found that it would be more benificial to me to hit them each once a week. As soon as I switch to doing that my body changed and grew substantially. So I don't know how you can make a generalized conclusion that "what everyones does" is not based on research. How do you know what other people do. Just because they don't do it your way??? And if you have done your research like you claim you'll see there is MUCH research backing many different styles of training. Basically it comes down to what you prefer and what works for you. It almost sounds like maybe you haven't tried much else so you can't speak from enough experience of having tried other training styles? In that case it would be hard for you to make a statement as you have. Have you ever tried a split like mine? As for me I have had much experience w/ other routines. Of course not all of them though that would be somewhat impossible anyhow. Just the simple fact that you sound as if there is only ONE WAY to do this is pretty narrow minded and ignorant in my opinion. And more importantly RESULTS speak for themself. Don't mean to sound so harsh or argumentative but you start out by saying No Problem but then just jump to drawing conclusions again on what "everyones else does". Not everybody who seeks advice on this board knows Nothing.

Ok, and I hate to even jump in here... no, no I don't. Look, Emunah was just trying to help you out. What I have seen by reading through this thread is that you want people to JUSTIFY your way of doing things, not offer you advice. That's fine. Look at you, making great gains and so full of knowledge and research! If you don't like advice, ignore it. Ignore me for all I care. Just think that someone needs to point out that Emunah is not the bad guy... er, bad girl... bad, person.

J.Bo
07-03-2006, 09:25 AM
Ok, and I hate to even jump in here... no, no I don't. Look, Emunah was just trying to help you out. What I have seen by reading through this thread is that you want people to JUSTIFY your way of doing things, not offer you advice. That's fine. Look at you, making great gains and so full of knowledge and research! If you don't like advice, ignore it. Ignore me for all I care. Just think that someone needs to point out that Emunah is not the bad guy... er, bad girl... bad, person.

Well I guess you did jump in though didn't you? How do you know what my intentions are? NO i do not want someone to justify my way of doing things at all... If you noticed Emunah was telling me to change my entire routine as advice for me to CUT? Plenty of people cut on a 4 day split. Yet when Luckydog gave me advice I took it all in even though I didn't think raising my carbs was issue I knew it might have been where I went wrong. Though she talked from experience... I asked for help because I didn't know? I was looking for help not a lecture...

Andrew.Cook
07-03-2006, 09:40 AM
Well I guess you did jump in though didn't you? How do you know what my intentions are? NO i do not want someone to justify my way of doing things at all... If you noticed Emunah was telling me to change my entire routine as advice for me to CUT? Now when Luckydog gave me advice I took it all in even though I didn't think raising my carbs was issue... So that's why I asked for help because I didn't know? I was looking for help not a lecture...

Of course I jumped in. I don't care what you intentions are. Find it amusing that when people tell you something you WANT to hear you are their "bestest ever friend" and when Emunah suggests elsewise, suddenly he/she is the enemy. LuckyDog agrees with you, and now you two are thick as thieves. GirlinSeattle thinks everything is hunky dory, and you say "thanks." Emunah thinks you should change to something more useful, and you get all bent out of shape. Not all change is bad. I didn't see that Emunah was lecturing you... like I feel I am now. Anyway, best of luck to you. I'm sure that you will be fine.

LuckyDog
07-03-2006, 11:09 AM
J. Bo - The BCAAs sound fine - I would take 2 pre & 2 post

I am 5'6" & right now 4 weeks out 130 - I am pretty lean right now - cuts in my legs veins all the way up my abs

This cut my calories have run from 2300 to 1400 (where I am right now) - who knows what will happen in the next 4 weeks

like previously mentioned I do not count protein in carbs and I don't count veggies. So my full chain protein is 45% of what every my calorie consumption is.




A. C. - I appreciate your sentiment - there are numerous ways to accomplish the same goal all work to some extent. Some are far more effective for one goal then the other. I find it very frustrating that there are so many people who believe that there is one RIGHT solution (diet/training). I perceived J. Bos frustration as being a product of having people try to convince her that one way (not even close to hers) was the only acceptable way. Emunah is a fabulous contributer to this board and many others and I agree she was just trying to be helpful. But please don't take J. Bo's appreciation of help that is more in line with her current split and diet and my appreciation of the fact that she is a thinker and worrying about alot of the right things as a direct knock on Sarah (Hi honey I miss ya by the way!) - perhaps the delivery could be smoother - but I understand the frustration with the one way or the highway attitude.

J.Bo
07-03-2006, 06:44 PM
Of course I jumped in. I don't care what you intentions are. Find it amusing that when people tell you something you WANT to hear you are their "bestest ever friend" and when Emunah suggests elsewise, suddenly he/she is the enemy. LuckyDog agrees with you, and now you two are thick as thieves. GirlinSeattle thinks everything is hunky dory, and you say "thanks." Emunah thinks you should change to something more useful, and you get all bent out of shape. Not all change is bad. I didn't see that Emunah was lecturing you... like I feel I am now. Anyway, best of luck to you. I'm sure that you will be fine.

Are you just looking for a fight or what? If Emunah has a problem w/ me let her take it up w/ me. Why do you feel the need to go on about something that has absolutely nothing to do w/ YOU. Or are you just going to keep coming back at me trying to make me look bad to everyone else because of the assumptions you're making because that's all they are. Their is no fact in what you say about me you're just guessing. And Luckydog did not agree w/ me she told me my carbs were too low, Hello... But I believe she is the only one that took the time to really read my post and understand what kind of help I needed. As for Girlinseattle I told her thanks just because she was being nice yet told her I was far from perfection. So how am I just taking in what I want to hear??? Kind of sounds like you are only reading and seeing what you want to from this whole thing. Almost sounds hypocritical.

sherdi
07-03-2006, 07:06 PM
just thought I would point out the typo..
should be .3 to .4 grams of fat per lb of bodyweight

Thanks Terra! :)

I agree with Lucky Dog, good quality carbs are what is needed! They are truly amazing and will help with energy and fatloss! Good luck! :)

ratmonkey
07-04-2006, 02:45 PM
i have to jump in too...and completely disagree with emuna's recommendation of a full body or upper/lower split routine. there are too many factors governing everyone's recovery speed to be able to recommend one "perfect" routine for all.

i don't believe full body or upper/lower splits work all that well for most all advanced bodybuilders(yes i chose my wording carefully to make a point) just as i don't believe in mike mentzer's later version of HIT.

full body or upper/lower splits do, however work great for athletes such as football or baseball players. and periodization and light/heavy/speed days work well for strength athletes. if you don't fall into those categories the traditional bbing splits will give you the best chance to work towards a better appearance.

LuckyDog
07-04-2006, 04:06 PM
i have to jump in too...and completely disagree with emuna's recommendation of a full body or upper/lower split routine. there are too many factors governing everyone's recovery speed to be able to recommend one "perfect" routine for all.

i don't believe full body or upper/lower splits work all that well for most all advanced bodybuilders(yes i chose my wording carefully to make a point) just as i don't believe in mike mentzer's later version of HIT.

full body or upper/lower splits do, however work great for athletes such as football or baseball players. and periodization and light/heavy/speed days work well for strength athletes. if you don't fall into those categories the traditional bbing splits will give you the best chance to work towards a better appearance.


Elequently put!!!

J.Bo
07-04-2006, 06:39 PM
[QUOTE=ratmonkey]i have to jump in too...and completely disagree with emuna's recommendation of a full body or upper/lower split routine. there are too many factors governing everyone's recovery speed to be able to recommend one "perfect" routine for all.

i don't believe full body or upper/lower splits work all that well for most all advanced bodybuilders(yes i chose my wording carefully to make a point) just as i don't believe in mike mentzer's later version of HIT.

full body or upper/lower splits do, however work great for athletes such as football or baseball players. and periodization and light/heavy/speed days work well for strength athletes. if you don't fall into those categories the traditional bbing splits will give you the best chance to work towards a better appearance.[/QUOTE

Great post Ratmonkey. I appreciate just how you put it.... Thanks

Andrew.Cook
07-05-2006, 09:43 AM
i have to jump in too...and completely disagree with emuna's recommendation of a full body or upper/lower split routine. there are too many factors governing everyone's recovery speed to be able to recommend one "perfect" routine for all.
I don't think that Emunah claimed for it to be the "golden routine." I'll go back and review. I don't think that recovery in an upper/lower split is an issue. C'mon now, Rat. You know that you can manipulate total volume in these programs to account for recovery time. Volume per day decreases, while frequency increases. I think the suggestion was made to simply point out that maybe a more radical change is needed. I would have even gone so far as to say that a full body workout is best. Gonna argue recovery time with that too?



i don't believe full body or upper/lower splits work all that well for most all advanced bodybuilders(yes i chose my wording carefully to make a point) just as i don't believe in mike mentzer's later version of HIT.
6 years of lifting is not advanced. Intermediate, I would say. Regardless, I would say that upper/lower or push/pull splits work just fine for advanced trainees. I have been seeing great gains on a full body program. Once again, I think you have to manipulate your volume to match your frequency. But that knowledge would come with being an advanced trainer. I'm not saying 3 day bodypart splits are evil (nor is HIT in it's early incarnations), but to say that they wouldn't work feels a little... short sighted.



full body or upper/lower splits do, however work great for athletes such as football or baseball players. and periodization and light/heavy/speed days work well for strength athletes. if you don't fall into those categories the traditional bbing splits will give you the best chance to work towards a better appearance.

Sport specific work aside (as baseball players should not be worried about gaining mass, nor should most football players), I would say that bodybuilders should be strength athletes. To pretend that you should not be concerned with strength is to completely misunderstand muscle building. Not sure I want to hijack this thread to begin yet another powerlifting/bodybuilding discussion, but surely you are aware of the arguments involved. Let's not be so quick to discount strength specific training as a very viable means by which to gain muscle.