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View Full Version : The 3 good groups do not add up for me!



X-Manifest
06-21-2006, 08:59 AM
hi there,

Im really confuzzed here....

First of all, where could i find my maintenance calory intake amount, did a calc online but i dont trust it as the exercise selection was 'none,moderate and hard execise'...i mean really, how accurate can that be. Does your maint cal amount usually include or exclude the exercise you do??

Can anyone work mine out for me? : i weight 154lb, 5.8ft, 17% bf, 25 yrs old

OK heres my prob...lets say my maint amount is 2062 calories.
I would like to bulk up a bit and gain some muscle but stay relatively ripped at the same time. i see to put on muscle one should use the preportion 40/40/20 (protein,carbs,fat), and then when cutting 50/30/20 (drop carbs). This look right?

Now according to the above i need to take in:
prot: 824 cal (40%)
carb: 824 cal (40%)
fat: 412 cal (20%)

...now thats just to maintain my weight. I know i need a calorie EXCESS to gain size.

Heres where i go moggy....
I have read that one should have 0.9g of protein per lean pound of body mass...which means mine would be 128lb x 0.9 = 115g of protein i need per day. Each gram of protein is 4 calories, so that daily amount would be 115g x 4 = 460 calories......BUT as you can see above i am 'meant' to have 824 calories just to MAINTAIN my weight....where are the rest of the calories meant to come from if im only meant to have 460 cals of protein according to my body weight and the 0.9g per pound rule?

Please help here....lost i am!

arose70
06-21-2006, 09:03 AM
Naw, you can do 1-2 g protein per lb of BODY WEIGHT (not lean mass).

Start with 2200 cals and see how you are progressing, if you are gaining too much, cut back, if you are not gaining as much as you'd like, increase. You are right, the online calcs are very general and you will only know what to do when you start experimenting with different intake amounts. Good luck :)

X-Manifest
06-21-2006, 09:13 AM
ok cool.

that sounds a little better. i weight 154lb, so that means i could take anything from 154 - 308 grams?? wow ok. according to my maint amount...i need about 850 cal of protein which is 212g protein. that means 220g of carbs to if im using the 40/40/20.

Is that preortion correct? is it ok for me? and then 50/30/20 when cutting. (the order im using is protein,carb,fat).

Oh and did you base that 2200 cals on my body weight...hope it wasnt a guess! :)

Thanks for the help!

Miranda
06-21-2006, 09:30 AM
Naw, you can do 1-2 g protein per lb of BODY WEIGHT (not lean mass).

nope . . .lean mass.
fat mass isn't active mass (it has something of a metabolism but not much) and doesn't need to be fed.

i don't know where you got the .9 grams from. it's the minimum for maintenance but we're bulking here.
let's see . . . 128 x 1.5 = 192 grams = 768 cals. you could go up to 2 grams but that would be a bit much.
fill in the rest with carbs.

that is
192 grams protein
45 grams fat
223 grams carbs

approx 2060 cals.
this is your starting point only. increase the cals with 5-10% each week (form carbs) and see where it gets you.

terracotta
06-21-2006, 10:23 AM
Actually Miranda, the number was something like 1.2 grams per LBM, but seeing how almost no one has a good estimate of their LBM, it was simplified to 1 gram per total body mass.

X-Manifest
06-22-2006, 02:19 AM
thanks! Great help.

So which one should i use...
Miranda - 128 x 1.5 = 192 grams?
or
terracotta - 128 x 1.2 = 153 grams ?

Using Miranda's my diet would be..
192 grams protein = 768 cals = 37.1%
45 grams fat = 405 cals = 19.6%
223 grams carbs = 892 calc 43.1%
...preportions seem ok?

Now, to get all that protein in it seems that i might have to be taking a protein shake with each meal of the day! ie. 6. Is this too much? container says 3 sevings a day. each scoop/shake has 28 grams protein. (MP Max whey).

This is my proposed diet....help me tweak it and tell me what you would change....just worried about taking too many shakes....but at the end of the its the only way I see myself getting all that protein.

8am - 2 eggs (12g) on 1 slice toast, 1 protein shake (28g) = 40g
11 am- 2 apples snack at 11am, 1/2 protein shake (14g) = 14g
1pm - 2 chicken drumsticks (skin eaten) (30g),portion of veg,protein shake (28g) = 58g
4pm - 2 peaches,small tuna sandwich (10g), 1/2 protein shake = 24g
6:15pm - banana, 1/2 protein shake = 14g
6:30pm - work out for 1 hour.
7.30pm - (immed after work out) - banana
8.00pm - piece of chicken/fish (15g),portion of veg,protein shake(28g) = 43g


..the above amount to 193g protein. Does this look ok? is 4 and a half shakes a day fine or is it too much? Also. would I consume 2065 cals on an OFF day? My schedule is mon wo,tue wo, wed break,thur wo,fri wo, sat break,sun BREAK. That seem ok? Really want to get going with my routine so any help and tips would be much appreciated.
Thanks

Miranda
06-22-2006, 03:15 AM
Now, to get all that protein in it seems that i might have to be taking a protein shake with each meal of the day! ie. 6. Is this too much? container says 3 sevings a day. each scoop/shake has 28 grams protein. (MP Max whey).

This is my proposed diet....help me tweak it and tell me what you would change....just worried about taking too many shakes....but at the end of the its the only way I see myself getting all that protein.

Just eat more eggs, fish, chicken, you know the deal. There’s no need to drink that much protein shakes. They can come in handy when you really start stuffing yourself :p

There’s no dairy in there; are you lactose intolerant?
And you haven’t mentioned any fats? Add nuts, olive oil, avocados and fatty fish.


8am - 2 eggs (12g) on 1 slice toast, 1 protein shake (28g) = 40g

don’t you like oatmeal? :) it is high in fiber and helps keep you full. Add some fruit here and some fats. Take the apple out of the 11 am meal and put it here.


11 am- 2 apples snack at 11am, 1/2 protein shake (14g) = 14g

in itself quite ok, but you’d be better of with a real meal: tuna/chicken, carbs, veggies, fats etc.


1pm - 2 chicken drumsticks (skin eaten) (30g),portion of veg,protein shake (28g) = 58g

58 grams? try to even out the protein intake throughout the day. some complex carbs wouldn’t hurt either – and some fat (not the saturated kind though)


4pm - 2 peaches,small tuna sandwich (10g), 1/2 protein shake = 24g

pretty much ok imo. Try eating more tuna and add some veggies (and fats)


6:15pm - banana, 1/2 protein shake = 14g

oatmeal needed!!!! Fantastic for sustained energy!


7.30pm - (immed after work out) – banana

add skim milk, whey and dextrose to your PWO shake. The ratio carbs/protein in that meal should be 2:1. the aim is to help kickstart the recovery process with high GI carbs and a fast-acting protein (whey).


8.00pm - piece of chicken/fish (15g),portion of veg,protein shake(28g) = 43g

. . . add some comlex carbs here too + fats.


would I consume 2065 cals on an OFF day?

for the first week, yes. you need to go above your maintenance.

Mon (wo) 2250
tue (wo)2200
wed (rest) 2100
thur (wo) 2300
fri (wo) 2250
sat (rest) 2000
sun (rest) 1900

average ca. 2150. something like that. Start slowly and add up 5-10% weekly.

X-Manifest
06-22-2006, 03:34 AM
Really appreciate your help Mairanda!

Ye the diet I showed was mainly to illustrate protein, still need to work out my fats and carbs. i will take your advice and eat oatmeal in the morning, but through out the day?
I was thinking, often as a meal i enjoy chicken,portion of vegies and SMASH, you ever heard of smash? its dried potato powder, mix with water and you get 'mashed potato'. Ive been in love with it now for years. Think this would be good for carbs? What other carbs could i mix into my meals through out the day? Yes i do eat ALOT of bread and CHEESE :) would wholewheat bread ham and cheese sandwiches be good? What is mainly found in cheese? i know the bread would be good for carbs?

Thanks for the help!

X-Manifest
06-22-2006, 03:41 AM
one more thing....im worried that my maint cal amount might be incorrect. Do you think 1950 is about my maint amount taking into account i weigh 154lb, 5.8ft and 17% bf?

Should this maint amount be taken incl your work out....or excl work out...i assume INCLUDING your work out as you need to still have an excess after that to gain size.

Miranda
06-22-2006, 03:45 AM
oatmeal in the morning, but through out the day?

why not, if you like it . . .? it's really good before a workout.


its dried potato powder, mix with water and you get 'mashed potato'. Ive been in love with it now for years. Think this would be good for carbs?

unless you start picking holes about added preservatives and stuff :p . . .yes. imo the less processed, the better = boiled potatoes.


What other carbs could i mix into my meals through out the day?

beans, rice, potatoes, veggies, oat bran, fruit . . .


would wholewheat bread ham and cheese sandwiches be good? What is mainly found in cheese? i know the bread would be good for carbs?

bread is another hot topic. personally, i tend to overeat it. but non-processed whole-grain breads aren't going to kill anyone.

cheese is, depending on the type, 30-40% protein and 50-60% saturated fat. i know there are low-fat (4-5%) versions out there but not in this country. damn!

X-Manifest
06-22-2006, 03:48 AM
Cool, and fats?? a good source i hear is from fish, and sesimee seeds?

X-Manifest
06-22-2006, 03:53 AM
oh ya, and does it matter what TYPE of fats? i know saturated is bad for cholestrol...would eating fish be enough to get fats? Canned tuna in oil?
What about a table spoon of olive oil to fry my eggs in the morning??

Miranda
06-22-2006, 04:21 AM
oh ya, and does it matter what TYPE of fats? i know saturated is bad for cholestrol...would eating fish be enough to get fats? Canned tuna in oil?
What about a table spoon of olive oil to fry my eggs in the morning??

this is from Emma :)

Omega-6 : Omega-3 is the important ratio for health in the body (that is, the polyunsaturated fat ratio). This should be as close to 1 : 1 as possible. For most people this is near on impossible, and so anything under 3:1 or 4:1 is great.

Omega-9 (oleic acid) is a mono-unsaturated fat. The exact ratio of this fat in relation to omega-3 and 6 fats is not hugely significant... But your mono-unsaturated fats are very important in your diet and the majority of your dietary fats should actually come from these sources... Thus, as oleic acid one of the main mono-unsaturated fats, you should be getting lots of things like olive oil and avocado.

Generally, speaking, if you aim for something like:
~ 50% mono-unsaturated fats
~ 30-35% poly-unsaturated fats (with a ratio of 6:3 of less than 4:1)
~ 15- 20% saturated fats (no more than this)

X-Manifest
06-22-2006, 04:49 AM
thanks Emma. good info there.

Im a bit confused about my maint calorie amount and scared to start anything until i know it as everything is based on it!

When i cal my rate on one of those onilne cals it is 1719, then i cal it with no or little exercise and it is 1719 x 1.2 = 2062 which is what arose70 and Miranda said i should start on. But now...it would be 2062 with little or no execise...but im going to be diong execise for an hour or so 4 times a week. Does this not mean that my maint amount should higher?? I mean if its 2062 WITHOUT execise,crykey is must be a few hundred over with execise? meaning if i start eating at 2200 i will be at a calorie deficit. ? Please help here.

Miranda
06-22-2006, 05:05 AM
how did you calculate it?

here's a site i found.
dunno if there's a calculator there but the info seems pretty good.

http://www.tim-richardson.net/BodyForLife/analysis.html

X-Manifest
06-22-2006, 05:10 AM
i calculated it here..... http://www.bmi-calculator.net/bmr-calculator/

height 5.8ft
weight 154lb
age 25, male

..and got 1719.

...then here..
http://www.bmi-calculator.net/bmr-calculator/harris-benedict-equation/
.... to cater for current exercise...mine would be AT LEAST 'Moderate', which means multiplying it by 1.55, that gives me the figure of about 2600 cals!!

Its basically saying im burning 880 odd cals every day?
2600 seems high!
??

Miranda
06-22-2006, 05:37 AM
it seems accurate to me.
it gives me a maintenance of 2250 - you're 10 lbs heavier than me (and an inch shorter) plus you're a bloke . . .

X-Manifest
06-22-2006, 05:46 AM
How exactly did you get your maintenance? did you take exercise into account? please explain exactly what maint is here....im going to be execising so i assume we need to take it into account.

Are you saying my maint is really 2664 if im doing moderate exercise? ie. 1719 x 1.55

...did you look at this link.... http://www.bmi-calculator.net/bmr-ca...dict-equation/

its where i got the facor of 1.55.

terracotta
06-22-2006, 10:06 AM
That doesn't seem too high at all. Of course there is variability from person to person, and these are just estimates!

Miranda
06-22-2006, 12:03 PM
That doesn't seem too high at all. Of course there is variability from person to person, and these are just estimates!

bump. i just started bulking. i'll be in the upper 2600s in a few weeks and i'm yet to gain weight.

Megin
06-22-2006, 01:36 PM
bump. i just started bulking. i'll be in the upper 2600s in a few weeks and i'm yet to gain weight.


Yey Miranda!


:D

imperfectly_lou
06-22-2006, 02:18 PM
You can try every calculator in the world but at the end of the day, you are going to have to learn what works for your body via trial and error. Don't get so caught up in the numbers. Choose an appropriate baseline and make modifications every 2-3 weeks as needed.

robdutoit
06-23-2006, 04:29 PM
Hi all

I have been reading and chatting to a friend of mine DalePurdon alot lately on the topic being spoken about above. I have a few questions to ask which are purely to challenge what has been said here because I am continually hearing different stories from everyone I speak to.

1. It makes sense about if you want to loose fat, eat at a calaric defecit & opposite to gain lean mass. Now today was my frist day eating according to my 50/30/20 split and I feels like WAY too much food and protein. Too much protein I am told can cause Osteoporosis.

2. I am not a body builder but have other hobbies such as wrestling and boxing. Now bearing this in mind, should I still be eating at such a high maint level of 2890 (I am 83kg, 5ft 8'' and 24 yrs old with a fairly active day when I am in training. Last few months I have not due to work hence putting on 6/7 kg)

3. Last year when I was at 76kg and probably in my best shape I was eating according to Dr Patrick Holfords Diet (http://www.patrickholford.com/content.asp?id_Content=1) which is basically about balancing the blood sugar levels. Roughly on a plate of food, it would consist of 1/2 veg, 1/4 protein & 1/4 carb's. Now if I compare what I am meant to eat now it seems like to much food and I do not see how it is going to make me loose fat?

I am not saying most of your approaches are wrong as I am sure it has worked for many of you but purely would like to have a understanding as to exactly what I am doing to my body.

Advice appreciated.

Regards

Robby

terracotta
06-23-2006, 04:53 PM
thanks! Great help.

So which one should i use...
Miranda - 128 x 1.5 = 192 grams?
or
terracotta - 128 x 1.2 = 153 grams ?

Using Miranda's my diet would be..
192 grams protein = 768 cals = 37.1%
45 grams fat = 405 cals = 19.6%
223 grams carbs = 892 calc 43.1%
...preportions seem ok?


It doesn't matter either way :)

50 c/30 p/20 f and 40 c /40 p /20 f are both good ratios

X-Manifest
06-24-2006, 11:13 AM
and 50p,30c,20f is better for cutting right?

sokwatson
06-24-2006, 01:18 PM
Wow, I only THOUGHT that I was an over-thinker!
When you start getting "too deep" it becomes too confusing and (atleast for me) takes all the fun out of everything... because you're constantly adding up everything all day long. Don't over analyze, just experiment.

X-Manifest
06-26-2006, 02:38 AM
I agree sokwatson. but the more I know before i start, the better. Sure one can experiment and make rough estimates....but i want to get to know as many base concepts as possible. And yes youre right I probably do get too into it.....i cant help it though...its my inquisitive nature... Will try and be a liiiitle more light hearted from now on :)