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View Full Version : Name the most successful Socialist/Communist Nations...



JUSA
06-21-2006, 07:42 AM
Here is, according to my thread, the qualifiers:

A. This is for any current Socialist or Communist Nation or one that has collapsed or changed (example: Soviet Union). Try to be fair, meaning, the Soveit Union existed for a long, long time - don't take data from just one time period, try and look at the history of the Nation as a whole - although for current countries which exist - it's ok to focus on the current statistics.

B. List socialist and communist seperately.

1. Quality of Life: Including housing, access to medicine, access to food, etc.
2. Happiness: this data is probably not available for most Communist countries (wonder why?) but for those that it is accessable, it is a qualifier. For those that it doesn't exist, you can take a stab at it (meaning: I could take a stab and say than in Communist Soviet Union, the happiness quotient wasn't impressive). It is acceptable to extrapalate and make reasonable hypothesis' here. Example: I could look at a Nation's suicide rate and make a reasonable assumption from that on the overall happiness of the Nation's people.
3. Longevity. Again, only for those where this data is available (although, this ought to be available for most).
4. Freedoms. How free are the people? No Nation has ever had complete freedom (Sorry USA!) but are the people being shot in the street for spitting on the sidewalk or harmlessly gathering for civil protests? Can people freely worship who/what they want? Can they do drugs if they want? Could they own a gun (lol)? .... and so on.

These are the criteria. If you think it should be judged on how equal everyone is or some other ranking, well **** off - make your own stupid thread. This is my stupid thread. My thread, my rules.

I'm curious to hear what people have - especially those outspoken against Socialism and/or Communism (Yea Novax, you may hate them all, but surely you think one sucks less than the others, eh?)

~Serpent~
06-21-2006, 07:43 AM
Does Canada and the US qualify?

JUSA
06-21-2006, 07:47 AM
I'm going to take a stab here and say it's probably somewhere like Canada or the UK - if you can even count either as Socialist. Probably, the further removed from Socialism you get the more successful the place... for a Communist country... ****, that's a toughie, they've all been pretty much wrecks. I have no clue, I just know I'd never, never, never want to like in a Communist country.

JUSA
06-21-2006, 07:48 AM
Does Canada and the US qualify? If you can make a reasonable and intelligent argument why, sure. I think with Canada that might be easier... the US sure as hell is leaning more and more that way (which sucks, IMO) but right now I don't think most would consider it Socialist.

Diesel66
06-21-2006, 08:17 AM
If you can make a reasonable and intelligent argument why, sure. I think with Canada that might be easier... the US sure as hell is leaning more and more that way (which sucks, IMO) but right now I don't think most would consider it Socialist.
Canada's average tax rate being 50% is socialist

1devil
06-21-2006, 08:21 AM
Here is, according to my thread, the qualifiers:

A. This is for any current Socialist or Communist Nation or one that has collapsed or changed (example: Soviet Union). Try to be fair, meaning, the Soveit Union existed for a long, long time - don't take data from just one time period, try and look at the history of the Nation as a whole - although for current countries which exist - it's ok to focus on the current statistics.

B. List socialist and communist seperately.

1. Quality of Life: Including housing, access to medicine, access to food, etc.
2. Happiness: this data is probably not available for most Communist countries (wonder why?) but for those that it is accessable, it is a qualifier. For those that it doesn't exist, you can take a stab at it (meaning: I could take a stab and say than in Communist Soviet Union, the happiness quotient wasn't impressive). It is acceptable to extrapalate and make reasonable hypothesis' here. Example: I could look at a Nation's suicide rate and make a reasonable assumption from that on the overall happiness of the Nation's people.
3. Longevity. Again, only for those where this data is available (although, this ought to be available for most).
4. Freedoms. How free are the people? No Nation has ever had complete freedom (Sorry USA!) but are the people being shot in the street for spitting on the sidewalk or harmlessly gathering for civil protests? Can people freely worship who/what they want? Can they do drugs if they want? Could they own a gun (lol)? .... and so on.

These are the criteria. If you think it should be judged on how equal everyone is or some other ranking, well **** off - make your own stupid thread. This is my stupid thread. My thread, my rules.

I'm curious to hear what people have - especially those outspoken against Socialism and/or Communism (Yea Novax, you may hate them all, but surely you think one sucks less than the others, eh?)
Sweden and Norway have socialist leanings, Both are outstanding places to live.

G T
06-21-2006, 08:29 AM
Pretty much every country is socialist nowdays, except places like Hong Kong or Dubai.

johnnyironboard
06-21-2006, 09:01 AM
None work in the long run. Think about it-
1. 100% tax up front.
2. Artificially low prices which create shortages.
3. Zero motivation to acheive.

So you end up with a bunch of lazy people with nothing and nothing to look forward to. That's why they all collapse (it's also why communes fall apart as well).

johnnyironboard
06-21-2006, 09:03 AM
Pretty much every country is socialist nowdays, except places like Hong Kong or Dubai.

I graduated from College 16 years ago with $12,000 in debt and today am a self-made multi-millionaire. That does not happen in Socialist Countries- but stories like that are common in the USA.

JUSA
06-21-2006, 09:14 AM
Sweden and Norway have socialist leanings, Both are outstanding places to live. How long have you lived in either, out of curiosity? I was in Norway for a little less than a week. It seemed nice, but I wasn't there long enough to make any intelligent idea on how great it would be to live there.

http://www.mcdl.org/Stats/gnpsuicide.htm

Suicide rates for each seem a tad high, nothing too bad though. What's up with Finland, though?

1devil
06-21-2006, 09:20 AM
How long have you lived in either, out of curiosity? I was in Norway for a little less than a week. It seemed nice, but I wasn't there long enough to make any intelligent idea on how great it would be to live there.

http://www.mcdl.org/Stats/gnpsuicide.htm

Suicide rates for each seem a tad high, nothing too bad though. What's up with Finland, though?
Honestly I have not lived in either country. However, they always seemed to be rated high on the list of best places to live. I think the suicide rate is probably a bit high to to the long dark winters. Lots of people probably suffer from seasonal affective disorder. My sister lives in Denamark and loves it. Denmark is probably not all that far removed politically from Sweden or Norway.

A & B
06-21-2006, 09:26 AM
As 1devil said, some of those small European countries like Norway are socialist to an extent, and consistently rank in the top countries in the world to live, well above the US and right now, above Canada too.

JUSA
06-21-2006, 09:32 AM
How are the quality of life, the happiness, the longevity and the freedoms of these places, though? What criteria is being used to judge them in the polls you cited which rate them so high?

1devil
06-21-2006, 09:37 AM
How are the quality of life, the happiness, the longevity and the freedoms of these places, though? What criteria is being used to judge them in the polls you cited which rate them so high?
Obviously any poll of this nature is going to be subjective. Personally the idea of living in a Scandanavian country is not all that appealing. I hate cold weather. That's why I moved from New York to Oregon.

Diesel66
06-21-2006, 09:40 AM
As 1devil said, some of those small European countries like Norway are socialist to an extent, and consistently rank in the top countries in the world to live, well above the US and right now, above Canada too.
Depends on what you are looking at. Every EU nation but Luxenbourg has a lower standard of living then even the poorest states.


http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005242

~Serpent~
06-21-2006, 09:51 AM
I notice the quality of european women in socialist / communist countries to be high. And what about the Russian women. mmm..tres belle

photomasterx
06-21-2006, 10:05 AM
Depends on what you are looking at. Every EU nation but Luxenbourg has a lower standard of living then even the poorest states.


http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005242


Thats possibly the most stupidest and retarded study i have ever seen.

First of all they say Americans have more cars then Europeans what they don't show is the value of the car infact i can guarantee that most people in western Europe drive higher quality cars then most Americans. The amount of BMW's, Porches, Alfa Romeo and Benzs and so on and other cars driven in western Europe is astronomically high compared to America. Although Europeans may have less cars then Americans in there households Europeans generally drive higher quality cars. Per capita europeans from western europe have higher quality vehicles then Americans do.

Second where they state that American houses are bigger this is true because American houses are cheaper then western European property per square meter. If a person in western Europe had $350,000 and an American had the same amount the American would always end up with a bigger house because house prices in America are way lower then western Europe per square meter of land.

And also where it mentions air conditioning have those morons even been to Europe don't they realize how cold it is here. A European having an air conditioning system is like an Arab having a sand making machine.

The Rob
06-21-2006, 10:06 AM
Definately Canada.......

With it's health care system, ridiculous taxes and so on......... Still a nice place to live :D

A & B
06-21-2006, 10:22 AM
Depends on what you are looking at. Every EU nation but Luxenbourg has a lower standard of living then even the poorest states.


http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005242

This article talks about per capita GDP, not the same.

In terms of material goods, yes, the US dominates the rest of the world, nobody can deny that.

But that doesn't equal "standard of living".

For instance, a relatively poor Amerian family might own an airconditioning unit and a car, but that doesn't mean their "standard of living" isn't low.


This is entirely misleading, using the per Capita GDP alone doesn't render many conclusions, as the article itself admits.

A & B
06-21-2006, 10:24 AM
How are the quality of life, the happiness, the longevity and the freedoms of these places, though? What criteria is being used to judge them in the polls you cited which rate them so high?

I had a thread on this a while back, with plenty of information on exactly this... Search it.

But here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index
http://www.economist.com/theworldin/international/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3372495&d=2005

And Diesel, with respect to your article, here's a list of countries ranked according to per capita GDP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita

JUSA
06-21-2006, 10:32 AM
Thats possibly the most stupidest and retarded study i have ever seen. You made some blunders yourself there, though pal. On one hand, you cite that Europeans are driving BMWs and great cars but on the other you disqualify American's having better houses b/c they cheaper here.

What, you think a BMW costs as much in Germany as it does in America?

A & B
06-21-2006, 10:36 AM
Here's a "Quality of life" index... http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/QUALITY_OF_LIFE.pdf

But like I said, I posted all this stuff here before.

IraHays
06-21-2006, 10:44 AM
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_pop-people-population

Not really fare to compare such small countries with huge ones. (Pitcairn Islands, population 46) lol.

Of the big countries, I would say China is successful, at least at stealing intellectual property.

MelGibson
06-21-2006, 02:16 PM
As 1devil said, some of those small European countries like Norway are socialist to an extent, and consistently rank in the top countries in the world to live, well above the US and right now, above Canada too.

Their socialist countries have major problems and are bound to collapse. Socialism can work when you have responsible people but it will still develop major problems and will not be as successful as a capitalist non socialist country.

Debaser
06-21-2006, 02:37 PM
Canada's average tax rate being 50% is socialist

Canada doesn't pay that much more in taxes than we do. Yes, it depends what "tax bracket" you're in, but as far as statistics go they do not.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/tax_tot_tax_wed_sin_wor-total-tax-wedge-single-worker

Debaser
06-21-2006, 02:59 PM
Depends on what you are looking at. Every EU nation but Luxenbourg has a lower standard of living then even the poorest states.


http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005242

This article is interesting, but asinine to equate it to a standard of living. It is simply based on consumption which doesn't equate to anything really. I know of plenty of people who have a tv, a car, etc. but can't pay for medical insurance or medical procedures. At least people who don't have access to fancy cars have access to health care - that's a better measure of quality of life. Not if your stereo system is the most kick-ass on the block or if your nike shoes cost $100.

Also, as someone noted, people have more cars in the US because we have a reliance upon them. Our landscape was molded for the motor vehicle. Cities were built and made for the car. Most of Europe was laid out to have other modes of transportation in mind such as the train. Ever hear of the metro in France?

Same with houses. We have way more open land in the US to build larger homes. Most European countries are not afforded this option, or their topography does not allow for such large homes to build.

It's like trying to build a 5,000 sq. ft. home downtown San Fran (a bit of an exageration but you get the point).

Yes, the US has a high standard of living, but not the highest. If people want to be socialist, all the power to them. If they want to capitalist go ahead. We do what works and they do what works.

Ask anyone if they would want to live in a cool European town or say Mississippi. I'd bet most would say Europe.

Patrok
06-21-2006, 03:04 PM
Quebec/Canada

WheelsofSteel
06-21-2006, 07:39 PM
Canada's average tax rate being 50% is socialist

The U.S. is 60-70% once you add in ALL taxes.

SYRIANKID
06-21-2006, 09:18 PM
I would have to say Cuba

Diesel66
06-22-2006, 07:11 AM
Canada doesn't pay that much more in taxes than we do. Yes, it depends what "tax bracket" you're in, but as far as statistics go they do not.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/tax_tot_tax_wed_sin_wor-total-tax-wedge-single-workerTheir tax freedom day is at the end of June. Ours is in April.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxfreedomday/
http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared/readmore.asp?sNav=nr&id=613




The U.S. is 60-70% once you add in ALL taxes.
Not for the average person. It is around 35%. Remember that 41% of Americans dont pay a dime in income tax and a good portion of those actually get money from the IRS.

Debaser
06-22-2006, 12:24 PM
Their tax freedom day is at the end of June. Ours is in April.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxfreedomday/
http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared/readmore.asp?sNav=nr&id=613


I don't know much about "tax freedom day". Why does the day matter?

And what do the nation master stats say and why does it not mean anything? You said their average tax is 50% of their earnings but nation master says 32%, while the US' is at 30%. Did I read the stats wrong or misinterpret them?

drjjg
06-22-2006, 01:58 PM
LOL, Canada is not socialist. Not by a long shot. The income disparity between the richest and the poorest is pretty close to that of the US.
Additionally, our taxes pay for our healthcare(which takes up a decent amount of government's budgets). It'd be more accurate to include private health care costs(insurance etc) into the figure. I'd add that per capita, Canadians spend nearly half that of Americans on health.

Furthermore, both countries and our provinces/states have significant debt on which there are large interest payments. This is unecessary and artificially raises taxes(much to the delight of big finance)