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TranceNRG
12-16-2002, 07:41 PM
hi guys...
I don't want this thread to turn into a flame war. I just want to know some opinions...

so please, NO FLAMING

1) who would you thank if something really good surprisingly happened to you?

2) who would you ask for help in the worst situations (eg, drowning, etc... a situation where there's nothing you could do about it to save yourself.) ?

that's all.

thank you


edit: question 2 is slightly edited

goblin6
12-16-2002, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
hi guys...
I don't want this thread to turn into a flame war. I just want to know some opinions...

so please, NO FLAMING

1) who would you thank if something really good surprisingly happened to you?

2) who would you ask for help in the worst situations (eg, drowning, etc...)?

that's all.

thank you
1) I really would not thank anyone, I would just be happy that it happened. I ahave already been in a situation like that, if anything I would tack it up to Fate or Karma, or just plain ole luck.

2)Again I would look to myself for help, not call on anyone else(God ) to help me. Been In a situation like that too.

MartialArtist
12-16-2002, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
hi guys...
I don't want this thread to turn into a flame war. I just want to know some opinions...

so please, NO FLAMING

1) who would you thank if something really good surprisingly happened to you?

2) who would you ask for help in the worst situations (eg, drowning, etc... a situation where there's nothing you could do about it to save yourself.) ?

that's all.

thank you


edit: question 2 is slightly edited
I'm not an Atheist, but, most Atheists won't thank a higher being hence the term. They will thank their friends, family, themselves, and everyone who had a part in what happened. In things such as winning the lottery, many would just view it as luck. You can be thankful but it doesn't mean you have to be thankful to an omnipotent being, but rather the event itself. The religous should also thank everyone who made the event happen along with God. That's really the only difference. You can't just thank God and leave out people who had an important part. You can say that God helped the people help you but if you leave out your family, relatives, and such... God doesn't want that.

2. They would try to get out of it. Same with me. Of course, when I'm drowning, I would ask God for help, but that doesn't mean I will just sit there and make Him do everything. That's not the way the world was intended to work. You get into things yourself, and you have to get yourself out. But, the Christian doctrine is that you can ask God to help you as you cannot do it alone. That's the only difference.

2Rude4MyOwnGood
12-16-2002, 08:17 PM
1. probably wouldnt thank anyone, but if i did i would thank the creator

2. i wouldnt ask for help, id rely on myself

Tim
12-16-2002, 08:43 PM
I consider myself agnostic, and not athiest, but anyways.....

1. I wouldn't thank anyone. I would just be glad that I had very good luck for once.

2. I wouldn't turn to anything for help. I'd just hope that everything turns out ok while I panic.

ScottyAx800
12-16-2002, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by Tim
I consider myself agnostic, and not athiest, but anyways.....
I don't think I've ever met an athiest that believed in ANYTHING supernatural. :D

X_DS~Grrrr...
12-16-2002, 09:08 PM
1) i would probably thank whatever person that helped me out, if it wasn't a person i may be grateful of luck, if none of the before applies i doubt i'd thank anything.

2) I doubt i would call for anyones help unless someone nearby would be able to hear but most likely i'd just be trying as hard as i could to save myself.

BPP
12-16-2002, 09:50 PM
whats agonistic mean?

:confused:

WHAT?
12-16-2002, 09:54 PM
1. Not god, jesus, buddah or whoever else
2. See 1

tre14
12-16-2002, 09:56 PM
i find it ironic how a lot of atheists pray to God before they die or when they think they are going to die.

2Rude4MyOwnGood
12-16-2002, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by tre14
i find it ironic how a lot of atheists pray to God before they die or when they think they are going to die.


damn, how many atheist's deaths have you witnessed?

BPP
12-16-2002, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by 2Rude4MyOwnGood
damn, how many atheist's deaths have you witnessed?


lol

c.lefort
12-16-2002, 10:21 PM
A) I would'nt thank anyone unless the event was the work of someone else.
B) I would probably ask whoever is nearby for help, otherwise I guess I'm screwed.

What is the point of these questions? An atheist is someone without belief of a higher power. If an atheist looks for "thanks" or "help" of/from a higher power they can't be an atheist, now can they, genius.

BPP
12-16-2002, 10:28 PM
point is a lot of times people just say they are athiest but when the time comes that something like this happens, miraculously they start praying to all kinds of gods

MetaforeX
12-16-2002, 11:22 PM
Agnostic doesn't believe or disbelieve..they don't have an opinion or feel that the answer is irrelevant to them.

BPP
12-16-2002, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by MetaforeX
Agnostic doesn't believe or disbelieve..they don't have an opinion or feel that the answer is irrelevant to them.

thanks

TranceNRG
12-16-2002, 11:49 PM
examples for the questions...

1) let's say... the closest person has a big tumor in his/her head.
Doctors have already expressed their negative opinion. After one week, when they test the patient, they notice that the tumor is getting smaller, and the closest person to you will be fine within a couple of weeks.


2) You are in the middle of the ocean, boating. suddenly high winds start to happen. Your boat flips. and you're in the water.
Far away from the beach. no one's in sight. and the weather starts to get worse and worse.

Smackdown
12-17-2002, 12:22 AM
Well I do not believe that there is NO God or that there is God, I'm open minded so i wouldnt say there is absolutely no god However there has been no proof so i do not believe in a God. I guess i'd be considered agnostic but anyway:

1) I personally do not believe in Luck either, good things and bad things happen to us and I just believe they are random events at times (events you had nothing to do with) although winning the lottery you did play a hand in that in buying the ticket and you just happened to be on probability's side. Anyway I would just be extremely happy at things going the way I wanted them to and not squander the good situation.

2) This is a very tough one because I'm sure everyone here will say "i wouldnt thank god" but during those moments who really knows? If you are scared enough sure the thought will cross your mind, even if you are the most devout atheist and some would even pray but even in doing so to me would not help at all. It would be futile but people aren't always logical and rational in scary situations like those. Many might pray but it would be futile so it would be better to try and get yourself out of the situation and stay calm which is what I would try my best to do.

Smackdown
12-17-2002, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
examples for the questions...

1) let's say... the closest person has a big tumor in his/her head.
Doctors have already expressed their negative opinion. After one week, when they test the patient, they notice that the tumor is getting smaller, and the closest person to you will be fine within a couple of weeks.


2) You are in the middle of the ocean, boating. suddenly high winds start to happen. Your boat flips. and you're in the water.
Far away from the beach. no one's in sight. and the weather starts to get worse and worse.

For number 2 you could have made it alot worse but i would try my damndest to get to shore or to get on top of the boat (depends on the size of it of course). In that situation sure you'd want good things to happen and I'd hope and wish for them, in that situation being desperate you never know what one would do.

Slim_DaDDy
12-17-2002, 12:44 AM
1) who would you thank if something really good surprisingly happened to you?

2) who would you ask for help in the worst situations (eg, drowning, etc... a situation where there's nothing you could do about it to save yourself.) ?


1)well whowever made it happen. Or myself for making it happen. depends on the situation really.

2)My own willpower and "faith" in my own ability.

Xtreme4Life
12-17-2002, 01:12 AM
1) If the surprisingly good thing wasn't the caused by another person or myself, then I would have nobody to thank. Things happen randomly. Do you think god picks the lotto numbers?

2) If there's nothing I can do about it as you stated, then I obviously wouldn't ask anybody. What kind of question is that? Do those of you that believe in god think that any last minute praying or cry for help to god will save you? Give me a break.

TranceNRG
12-17-2002, 02:39 AM
Xtreme:
just like a religious can't prove that it might help, you can't prove it wouldn't. right?




Also... just make sure you have read the examples too before answering :)

thank you

Xtreme4Life
12-17-2002, 02:54 AM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
Xtreme: just like a religious can't prove that it might help, you can't prove it wouldn't. right?

I could prove that God or a religion wouldn't help me or someone who's drowning, but I wouldn't be able to post afterward as I'd be dead or in jail ;)


Originally posted by TranceNRG
Also... just make sure you have read the examples too before answering :)

Sorry about that. I thought they were only examples, not something you wanted the responses based on :)

1) I work for an online pharmacy and we have a patient who went through just what you described. He swears that it is due to sea air and antioxidant vitamins :D IMO, it's simply something that we don't have the technology to understand yet but will some day.

2) I would accept the fact that I'm an idiot for boating in the ocean during a storm without a plan ;) Actually, I would do everything I could to survive. Anything. I will have no problem accepting death when it comes down to it. I've contemplated and faced death several times in my life already. I do not fear it or what will happen afterward.

MetaforeX
12-17-2002, 04:11 AM
I think the converse question should be asked of those that have religious faith.

If something really bad happens to you, or a loved one, despite following your religious creeds..who is to blame?

Tim
12-17-2002, 06:50 AM
Originally posted by MetaforeX
Agnostic doesn't believe or disbelieve..they don't have an opinion or feel that the answer is irrelevant to them.
Exactly. They don't believe in God since there is no concrete evidence of his existence, but they don't flat out deny his existence because that can't be proven either. I personally feel that I cannot just assume that there is no higher power out there since it has not been proven that there isn't, but I also can't really believe in God because there is not any concrete proof of his existance.

Jud
12-17-2002, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by Tim
Exactly. They don't believe in God since there is no concrete evidence of his existence, but they don't flat out deny his existence because that can't be proven either. I personally feel that I cannot just assume that there is no higher power out there since it has not been proven that there isn't, but I also can't really believe in God because there is not any concrete proof of his existance.


Thats how i feel too,my heart says there's a god but my head says no.

Carnutzzz
12-17-2002, 07:47 AM
Yes- finally MetaforeX said it!

Some would thank God for shrinking a tumor- but who would get blamed for putting it there in the first place!

Humans and their Gods- what silly creatures we are indeed!

BPP
12-17-2002, 08:33 AM
Originally posted by Jud
Thats how i feel too,my heart says there's a god but my head says no.

Im kinda the same way at times...at times it just seems like God is this mythical being put there to give people comfortand some degree of order and civility in life. On the other hand, I'm too afraid that death is the real end-all...if theres no god, then no soul, then its just over..and that would suck..so I believe for the sake of hopeful thinking if nothing else

el cabron.
12-17-2002, 08:35 AM
no one dies an atheist. buhleedat.

el cabron.
12-17-2002, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by MetaforeX
I think the converse question should be asked of those that have religious faith.

If something really bad happens to you, or a loved one, despite following your religious creeds..who is to blame?

why, the devil, of course!!

mntbikedude
12-17-2002, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by MetaforeX
I think the converse question should be asked of those that have religious faith.

If something really bad happens to you, or a loved one, despite following your religious creeds..who is to blame?



First just cause you believe in God does'nt mean that you think everything good or bad that happens is because of him.....alot of the bad things that have happened to me is because I was being a ****head.

But I do believe that he knows us by name......and gives challenges just for us.....that could either destroy us or by turning to him can make those weakness'es our strength.

I really believe it is like Star Wars and you can choose the dark side or the force (light).....the force is real......and like Luke learned it has to be practiced then it can become real.

This life is a test .......there must be evil or there could be no good.....you must know pain to appreciate no pain......the wicked must have the chance to do their wickedness......if God stopped every evil act our growth would be stopped ......its all about eternal progression..........As for me I will choose Light

el cabron.
12-17-2002, 09:40 AM
i am currently suspected by local authorities of being god. i deny these allegations vehemently and will prove my innocence if given a fair trial. right now, i have to go destroy some evidence.

mntbikedude
12-17-2002, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by el cabron.
i am currently suspected by local authorities of being god. i deny these allegations vehematley and will prove my innocence if given a fair trial. right now, i have to go destroy some evidence. Yes we all suspected that .....but you proved you were not perfect when you misspelled (did I spell that right) veham, no lets see its vehim no vehemmmm well you know what I mean.

el cabron.
12-17-2002, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by mntbikedude
Yes we all suspected that .....but you proved you were not perfect when you misspelled (did I spell that right) veham, no lets see its vehim no vehemmmm well you know what I mean.

hehe, yeah, it sucks when there's a word ya really wanna use, but can't spell. someone post the correct spelling, pulease.

rottie
12-17-2002, 10:04 AM
www.dictionary.com :)

raprazant
12-17-2002, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by TranceNRG

1) who would you thank if something really good surprisingly happened to you?

2) who would you ask for help in the worst situations (eg, drowning, etc... a situation where there's nothing you could do about it to save yourself.) ?


1: no one, because nothing surprizingly good happens to me that is either unexplainable or not attributable to myself or some other individual. in the case of the latter, which is very rare, i might thank them.

2: if there was someone standing there i would ask them for help otherwise no one. what would be the point?

btw, i'm agnostic but in this case the two are logically equivalent.

Dorian
12-17-2002, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by TranceNRG [/i]
[B]examples for the questions...

1) let's say... the closest person has a big tumor in his/her head.
Doctors have already expressed their negative opinion. After one week, when they test the patient, they notice that the tumor is getting smaller, and the closest person to you will be fine within a couple of weeks.

* I would say that the treatment is working fine, once you understand exactly how the body works , you would be amazed at the ilnesses that are curable. The body has a defense systm that is even capable of disarming cancer if you give it the right code sequence by what you are eating.***


2) You are in the middle of the ocean, boating. suddenly high winds start to happen. Your boat flips. and you're in the water.
Far away from the beach. no one's in sight. and the weather starts to get worse and worse. =====
* this is usually a time when a person needs to look into them selves and really see who is in there. You need to draw from your inner sense ( not some God), You would be surprised again how the body react to the presence of danger. We are built that way from ages of genetic evolution. so therefore I would look into my own resources that may be available, ( and not call to some God as you may be implying).

Is there a God? Or not? This will never end. Why not just say some say yes, some say no. an discontinue trying to ressurect the so called ( non christian). I have never seen one and you have never either. so no one knows for sure. Heres a simple approach, why not just wait until death occurs then come back to tell us. OK?

mntbikedude
12-17-2002, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by el cabron.
hehe, yeah, it sucks when there's a word ya really wanna use, but can't spell. someone post the correct spelling, pulease. vehemently ......had to use my hotmail spell check

rottie
12-17-2002, 10:42 AM
cause its the song that doesnt end. It just goes on and on my friend. Somebody started singing it not knowing what it was and they'll be singing it forever just because its the song that doesnt end. It just goes on and on my friend. Somebody started singing it not knowing what it was and they'll be singing it forever just because its the song that doesnt end. It just goes on and on my friend. Somebody started singing it not knowing what it was and they'll be singing it forever just because its the song that doesnt end. It just goes on and on my friend. Somebody started singing it not knowing what it was and they'll be singing it forever just because its the song that doesnt end. It just goes on and on my friend. Somebody started singing it not knowing what it was and they'll be singing it forever just because its the song that doesnt end. It just goes on and on my friend. Somebody started singing it not knowing what it was and they'll be singing it forever just because...

Yeah your right Dorian.. it could go on forever. :D

Tim
12-17-2002, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by bigpoppaproppy
Im kinda the same way at times...at times it just seems like God is this mythical being put there to give people comfortand some degree of order and civility in life. On the other hand, I'm too afraid that death is the real end-all...if theres no god, then no soul, then its just over..and that would suck..so I believe for the sake of hopeful thinking if nothing else
I really hate the concept of eternal death too. I cannot stand the notion that we will never exist again in any form after our bodies die. Eternal nothingness after we die is very depressing to think about. I try not to think about it, but I think about it too often anyways.

rottie
12-17-2002, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by Tim
I really hate the concept of eternal death too. I cannot stand the notion that we will never exist again in any form after our bodies die. Eternal nothingness after we die is very depressing to think about. I try not to think about it, but I think about it too often anyways.

But imagine the peace and quiet. :D

mntbikedude
12-17-2002, 11:42 AM
"Could the Lord prevent tragedies? The answer is, Yes. The Lord is omnipotent, with all power to control our lives, save us pain prevent all accidents, drive all planes and cars, feed us, protect us, save us from labor, effort, sickness, even from death, if he will. But he will not.

We should be able to understand this, because we can realize how unwise it would be for us to shield our children from all effort, from disappointments, temptations, sorrows, and suffering.

The basic gospel law is free agency and eternal development. To force us to be careful or righteous would be to nullify that fundamental law and make growth impossible.

If we looked at mortality as the whole of existence, then pain, sorrow, failure, and short life would be calamity. But if we look upon life as an eternal thing stretching far into the premortal past and on into the eternal post-death future, then all happenings may be put in proper perspective.

Is there not wisdom in his giving us trials that we might rise above them, responsibilities that we might achieve, work to harden our muscles, sorrows to try our souls? Are we not exposed to temptations to test our strength, sickness that we might learn patience, death that we might be immortalized and glorified?

If all the sick for whom we pray were healed, if all the righteous were protected and the wicked destroyed, the whole program of the Father would be annulled and the basic principle of the gospel, free agency, would be ended. No man would have to live by faith.

If joy and peace and rewards were instantaneously given the doer of good, there could be no evil-all would do good but not because of the rightness of doing good. There would be no test of strength, no development of character, no growth of powers, no free agency, only satanic controls.

Should all prayers be immediately answered according to our selfish desires and our limited understanding, then there would be little or no suffereing, sorrow, disappointment, or even death, and if these were not, there would also be no joy, success, resurrection, nor eternal life and godhood."

--Spencer W. Kimball, talk on "Tragedy or Destiny?"

Dorian
12-17-2002, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by mntbikedude
"Could the Lord prevent tragedies? The answer is, Yes. The Lord is omnipotent, with all power to control our lives, save us pain prevent all accidents, drive all planes and cars, feed us, protect us, save us from labor, effort, sickness, even from death, if he will. But he will not.

We should be able to understand this, because we can realize how unwise it would be for us to shield our children from all effort, from disappointments, temptations, sorrows, and suffering.

The basic gospel law is free agency and eternal development. To force us to be careful or righteous would be to nullify that fundamental law and make growth impossible.

If we looked at mortality as the whole of existence, then pain, sorrow, failure, and short life would be calamity. But if we look upon life as an eternal thing stretching far into the premortal past and on into the eternal post-death future, then all happenings may be put in proper perspective.

Is there not wisdom in his giving us trials that we might rise above them, responsibilities that we might achieve, work to harden our muscles, sorrows to try our souls? Are we not exposed to temptations to test our strength, sickness that we might learn patience, death that we might be immortalized and glorified?

If all the sick for whom we pray were healed, if all the righteous were protected and the wicked destroyed, the whole program of the Father would be annulled and the basic principle of the gospel, free agency, would be ended. No man would have to live by faith.

If joy and peace and rewards were instantaneously given the doer of good, there could be no evil-all would do good but not because of the rightness of doing good. There would be no test of strength, no development of character, no growth of powers, no free agency, only satanic controls.

Should all prayers be immediately answered according to our selfish desires and our limited understanding, then there would be little or no suffereing, sorrow, disappointment, or even death, and if these were not, there would also be no joy, success, resurrection, nor eternal life and godhood."

--Spencer W. Kimball, talk on "Tragedy or Destiny?"




Always a reason and a Rhyme. Abook (a story book) tells us something and we use it to lead our petty lives through this world.
I do find it interesting that if we ask the question why Mommy did God let daddy die, the christian answer is .....God decided it was his time to go home.
Now if I tell my kid that she would hate your God for being so cruel. For taking her daddy or mommy away from her.
Lets quit with the bull **** and show me hard evidence of all you guys try to convert us to. You can't because it does not exist (except inside your mind).

raprazant
12-17-2002, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by mntbikedude
If we looked at mortality as the whole of existence, then pain, sorrow, failure, and short life would be calamity. But if we look upon life as an eternal thing stretching far into the premortal past and on into the eternal post-death future, then all happenings may be put in proper perspective.

i'm perfectly fine with the former but if the latter is what gets you through the night, by all means knock yourself out.

mntbikedude
12-17-2002, 01:18 PM
Sorry Dorian.....sometime read that post when you can really think about what it says, that was so much deeper than you gave it credit for......religion will never nor should it ever be able to be proven in that way......the only thing that those that believe in God should do is simply state their beliefs.....its up to you to find out if they are true.......


But as much as some of you , vehemently deny a belief or a need for God .....still you take the time to tell us that.

Some would say it is just to straighten us all out, or that it just makes him mad. ( The way some of these God posts start would make me mad to.)

But I contend that it is because deep down .......I'm talkin way down inside you, you know.......you know that there must me a purpose. You have kinda anesthetized your longing by trying to convince yourself that there is nothing. That is what makes some so mad.

Getting mad, swearing ,coming up with all kinds of proof .....the feeling, the longing is still there, it will always be there. Sometimes you'll have yourself convinced...... but dude there will be other times that you just know , you just know......

Dorian
12-17-2002, 01:39 PM
I read it.... Rhyme and reason is what I find. another attempt to explain why and why not.
I could have told you certain things happen and certain things don't, but you put them off as God.
Well momma wasn't healed because she needed to become a martyr.I understand fully what you are attempting to portray with this peice.
I spent 10 years preaching to a congregation through music. I have heard it all.

The bottom line is this, Man invented God so he wouldn't be so alone in this universe. And so when death beats down on our doors we won't be so afraid it will be easier to say" I am going to be with God now"," see you there".
As for proof deep down inside , there is man always has been man and always will be. There is no Great all powerful inside of you who is omnipotent. I really hate the old saying God loves you. How the hell does someone really know that?
hehehhe a child's song Jesus loves me for th bible tells me so.
Ok enough rambling but I don't buy into the **** here. we are human ,we are an organism that is part of this earth. we are made from the same organism that rocks are made from just a bit different. So you keep your beleifs and then maybe you won't be so afraid when you find out we may be alone in the universe......

mntbikedude
12-17-2002, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Dorian
I I have heard it all.



I understand that but when you were religious .......did you know the purpose of life......I mean most ministers I ask that to come up with this lame answer .......like we are here to praise God .......

But I am saying that there is a real purpose, a plan and though praiseing God is good it is not the purpose........Any religion that I could believe in must answer these questions.

Where did I come from?

Why am I here?

Where am I going?

And whether or not anyone wants to admit it those questions remain...........

c.lefort
12-17-2002, 01:55 PM
Its sad to see so many people believe in an "omnipotent" being. The reason the idea still exists is because so many people are insecure. They use the idea of "God" as the universal answer to all life's questions and problems. To make matters worse, they (believers) go around trying to convince others of their sh**ty ideas. Thanks, but no thanks.

Smackdown
12-17-2002, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by mntbikedude

You have kinda anesthetized your longing by trying to convince yourself that there is nothing. That is what makes some so mad.



You've got all the burden of proof bass ackwards, Us trying to convince ourselves there is nothing. For us to be doing that there would have to be something or evidence to show that there is something. There is no evidence, so YOU are the one who is trying to convince yourself there is SOMETHING. Not the other way around!

Smackdown
12-17-2002, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by mntbikedude
I understand that but when you were religious .......did you know the purpose of life......I mean most ministers I ask that to come up with this lame answer .......like we are here to praise God .......

But I am saying that there is a real purpose, a plan and though praiseing God is good it is not the purpose........Any religion that I could believe in must answer these questions.

Where did I come from?

Why am I here?

Where am I going?

And whether or not anyone wants to admit it those questions remain...........

Of course those questions remain! It does NOT necessarily mean the answer is GOD!!!
This is a Post Hoc fallacy.

As for the burden of proof...

"The burden of proof is always on the person asserting something. Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of Argumentum ad Ignorantiam, is the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or questions the assertion. The source of the fallacy is the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise."

mntbikedude
12-17-2002, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by Smackdown
Of course those questions remain! It does NOT necessarily mean the answer is GOD!!!
This is a Post Hoc fallacy.

As for the burden of proof...

"The burden of proof is always on the person asserting something. Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of Argumentum ad Ignorantiam, is the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or questions the assertion. The source of the fallacy is the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise."

Anyone who believes that they can prove, or convince someone of Gods existence is kidding themselves.......

You can definately know for yourself whether He exists......but it is up to you to find out. I was a missionary for two years and I never convinced a single person of Gods existence......however I did teach many how they could know for themselves......

My responsibility is not to proof but simply to declare.........my post from Spencer W Kimbal .....was awesome .......it most diffinitely was not he same ole same ole .......yet you missed it .......you don't want to know if God lives so go forth.........and try to fill the emptieness elsewhere......maybe if you reach your goals in bb will fill it , or the right car....or enough

raprazant
12-17-2002, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by Smackdown
You've got all the burden of proof bass ackwards, Us trying to convince ourselves there is nothing. For us to be doing that there would have to be something or evidence to show that there is something. There is no evidence, so YOU are the one who is trying to convince yourself there is SOMETHING. Not the other way around!

it's the unmitigated arrogance of the bible-thumper smack. i've run into this crap many times. even though their beliefs are faith-based in nature they somehow believe that this is sufficient enough to place the burden of proof on the skeptic. it's akin to brainwashing, there can be no doubting of their own faith or else they have instantly transgressed in the most severe way. i've always found that these individuals, given enough time, will diminish their own credibility to the point of absurdity by exposing their zealotry. i'm just waiting for the crushing blow ala: near-death experience, "god spoke to me" or the all-time favorite: "it was god's intervention". excuse me while i go puke on myself.

mntbikedude
12-17-2002, 03:03 PM
I guess the real proof for me happened when I was driving, it was late at night ....roads slick and suddenly I heard the voice of God say don't go over the .......I'm Kiddddddingggggg

TranceNRG
12-17-2002, 05:10 PM
To Dorian and people who always ask for evidence:


I will show you evidence of God's existence, when:


you show me and prove to me the pain, when someone slaps you in the face.

get it?
if no, ask for further detail

Dorian
12-17-2002, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
To Dorian and people who always ask for evidence:


I will show you evidence of God's existence, when:


you show me and prove to me the pain, when someone slaps you in the face.

get it?
if no, ask for further detail

Thats actually quite simple in two ways... I could slap you in the face and you would feel it your self. or with electronic stimulation the feling can be duplicated. but that has nothing to do with a God.
That is only a feeling unless ou are attempting to prove Gods existence with a felling.
Then you are just like the self help gurus as Tony Robbins. He teaches you how to convince your self of things.
Have you ever heard of NLP?
If not let me explain something to you. I have studied it, it is a form of mentl conditioning for those who having difficulties with their thoughts and decisions., It is quite interesting to know that I can change you into beleiving anything within say 5 minutes.
Hence the God issue. Our job was to keep the people convinced of Gods existence through teaching and all. We had stories from people who were worse off and over came difficulties ( though they were not from God). We kept them in tears by telling them how God loved them and we as sinners but him behind us and do wrong to him. Not one dry eye in the house. Tactics! I know how to use them. I don't want to hear I had a revelation one night, because I did too. That was the night I found out I was alone in this world and decided to accept it. once I did that my life became less difficult and much more incredible. and enjoyable.
Where did I come from? simple it is proven that we existed through the earth as minerals and such came together to form a reaction. Did you know we are similar to nuclear reactors? we have a nucleus and protons with nuetrons or cells? same as everything in this world .
why am I here? Hmmm tht one will take some thought, but my guess so far is to carry on life through my children.
where am I going? actually once I am done here it really doesn't make much difference either way. so I don't concern myself anymore over such trivial affairs such as these.

Babs
12-17-2002, 05:45 PM
for the record I am an athiest
well i do not thank God, or believing in thanking a God for anything good that might happen to me when I know that there are millions of persons in poor countries around the world suffering horribly and never get the chance to be thankful for the things I get since I am in a wealthy country.

as to the second question if i was dying i think that i would just try to bear out that best i could, i am not going to betray my whole lifelong disbelief and way of life that came forth from it so that I can be comforted in that last moment. For me it is a matter of personal integrity and dignity(no that is not the same as pride). Even if God actually came to me and proved that he existed to me I would not ask for his help. I'd rather go to hell then to in that one fleeting moment contradict my whole life. I would choose integrity over bliss. considering that i respect your beliefs and the way you believers live, i hope you have enough decency to acknowledge the merits of my perspective. Peace to all believers or not.

TranceNRG
12-17-2002, 05:46 PM
Dorian...
Just to make it clear... I don't want you to think I'm pushing you to believe in something or I'm trying to change your mind.
now that that's done...

OK let's look at this way.
you have already made up your mind. Is there absolutely anything that could happen or should happen to make you believe in a higher power? Or do you consider everything as random events in the universe.
In another way, is there anything that could happen, that would make you think twice, or you have already made up your mind 'til the day you die?

now let's go to the slap.
I used that example, but in my opinion the existance of God (or a higher power) is something that you can't prove scientifically. If anyone slaps you, they won't feel your pain. They'll see you get red. They'll see you react to it. but they won't SEE the pain.
no matter how many electrochemical you attach to yourselve you can't display pain. You can explain what happens when there's pain but you can't who the feeling that you have inside of you to anyone else. right?
you know what I mean?

But hey... I respect you more than the people who blindly follow what they are born into. In my opinion, it's good to follow whatever you want to follow as long as you know why.

Babs
12-17-2002, 05:46 PM
i meant peace to all believers and non-believers

Babs
12-17-2002, 05:49 PM
trance that is a sophisticated philosophical idea that i have heard of before, but I have also heard of it being used by athiests. personally i do not feel like arguing now, but Dorian he did make a good point there and it is worthy of discussion. Peace out

xx0725
12-17-2002, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG


1) who would you thank if something really good surprisingly happened to you?

2) who would you ask for help in the worst situations (eg, drowning, etc... a situation where there's nothing you could do about it to save yourself.) ?

1. The invisible, all-powerful sky-god who secretly controls my fate.

2. See above.

mntbikedude
12-17-2002, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by Babs
i meant peace to all believers and non-believers

Bump on that ...... my respect for someone is not based on whether they believe in God or not.... it is based on how they live their life.........

BPP
12-17-2002, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG

now let's go to the slap.
I used that example, but in my opinion the existance of God (or a higher power) is something that you can't prove scientifically. If anyone slaps you, they won't feel your pain. They'll see you get red. They'll see you react to it. but they won't SEE the pain.
no matter how many electrochemical you attach to yourselve you can't display pain. You can explain what happens when there's pain but you can't who the feeling that you have inside of you to anyone else. right?
you know what I mean?

But hey... I respect you more than the people who blindly follow what they are born into. In my opinion, it's good to follow whatever you want to follow as long as you know why.



whoa, good example bro!!! never thought of that

aledef
12-17-2002, 06:26 PM
They said Jesus is returning....
Im waiting, seated in my couch, drinking my weight gainner...

MartialArtist
12-17-2002, 08:48 PM
Respect everyone, regardless of their faith.

But, one thing that pisses me off the most is when people say, "Religion is for the weak minded"

If it were true, then people wouldn't have died for their faith, like people did in the past and present. They weren't willing to renounce their beliefs, I don't think that's weak-minded at all. Or, you can reverse the argument and say that the non-religious are weak-minded because they can't accept a higher power. Yeah, it's not a good argument either, but it's basically the same thing some people are trying to do.


Religion is not just for those who are afraid of Hell, but for those who have already been through hell.

My point is that you can't judge a person's state of mind on religion, but by their actions.

mntbikedude
12-17-2002, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by MartialArtist
Respect everyone, regardless of their faith.

But, one thing that pisses me off the most is when people say, "Religion is for the weak minded"

If it were true, then people wouldn't have died for their faith, like people did in the past and present. They weren't willing to renounce their beliefs, I don't think that's weak-minded at all. Or, you can reverse the argument and say that the non-religious are weak-minded because they can't accept a higher power. Yeah, it's not a good argument either, but it's basically the same thing some people are trying to do.



My point is that you can't judge a person's state of mind on religion, but by their actions.

You really know how to exspress thoughts well......always right on.

Dorian
12-18-2002, 06:52 AM
Ahhhh Religion........ Religion say's when you go past a church to make the sign of the cross. religion say's that you say hail mary's. religion says that you have icons around you house so Mary cn protect you now and at the time of your death.
Are you getting this?????
Religion is nonsense! I would some one use th term what is your faith. Which would deem out to ask, what is your beleif.
Instead we ask what is your religion.

On to the rest. what would make me beleive again? I gues If Go talked to me or something. See I get sick of people telling me that God spoke to them and said...... Or they saw a vision..... Too many people make things up to attempt to prove God's existence. Is there a God? I don't know... But I aint going to worry about it. Am I happy , when is one really happy? when he gets what he wants? when he sees what he wants to see?
I guess a man is about as happy as he has made up his mind to be.
I get tired of people telling me reach out for Gods touch, or feel his love. I once asked a well known minister about this, his reply.... you have to just kinda make beleive........ Not for me, I don't want to make beleive anything.
Now I have nothing against someones beleif system, but there beleif does not always them the correct one. There always two sides of the coin. Just as there are two sides to christianity. I say if believing in a higher power is what makes you feel you can handle life and mak it through then that fine. Others have different ways. see I was on both sides of the coin, the dark side(so to speak) and the christian side. I found neither fullfilling. I found both to be a waste of time and effort. I need to live my life for me and not some one else as I did for many years.

Xtreme4Life
12-18-2002, 08:08 AM
It's very helpful to read the posts of someone who has view similar to yours, especially somebody like you who has already "been there, done that".

TranceNRG
12-18-2002, 04:36 PM
ok cool.
I just wanted to see your opinions on those.
I can't really argue, because I've never been in those two extreme situations.
So I can't say anything about how you or should feel about your religion or faith.

However, I already that I do respect your opinion because YOU made it and you didn't follow anyone.

take care for now :)

Dorian
12-18-2002, 04:57 PM
Not a problem i just kinda enjoy debating on these issues because I have been there:D

Road_kill
12-18-2002, 05:49 PM
I love debating too
but most of the time I should stop because people might think I'm trying to push my ideas on them, even when I'm just expressing what i think

MartialArtist
12-18-2002, 08:54 PM
A lot of the religious people have been on both sides also.

Remember, there is a quote in AA (Alcoholics Anonymous)

Spirituality is not just for those who are scared of hell, but those who have been through hell and don't want to go back.

rleeson
12-18-2002, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by el cabron.
why, the devil, of course!!

Where did the devil come from???

BPP
12-19-2002, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by rleeson
Where did the devil come from???

hell! duh!
;)

Dorian
12-19-2002, 06:17 AM
Originally posted by rleeson
Where did the devil come from???

Thats a good leading question.... The devil ( if you go with contemporary christiam veiws) came from heaven. He was supposed to be Gods angel. He was the best looking of them all and in charge of them. But he wanted to be more like God and have his stature. God, Upon seeing this sent him to the bowels of hell because he didn't want someone trying to take over.He saw the sin Lucifer was creating by lust and temptation and greed. All of which supposedly did not exist until the making of man and the garden of evil.

Here the stickler, In reads that the angels are not given a choice of free will. This is a contradiction........
If God created him perfect then he would be free of sin of any kind. The devil would be clean and not wanting control. This again is another contradiction from the bible.
There are so many contradictions I have found in the bible it isn't funny.

rottie
12-19-2002, 06:27 AM
Originally posted by Dorian
Thats a good leading question.... The devil ( if you go with contemporary christiam veiws) came from heaven. He was supposed to be Gods angel. He was the best looking of them all and in charge of them. But he wanted to be more like God and have his stature. God, Upon seeing this sent him to the bowels of hell because he didn't want someone trying to take over.He saw the sin Lucifer was creating by lust and temptation and greed. All of which supposedly did not exist until the making of man and the garden of evil.

Here the stickler, In reads that the angels are not given a choice of free will. This is a contradiction........
If God created him perfect then he would be free of sin of any kind. The devil would be clean and not wanting control. This again is another contradiction from the bible.
There are so many contradictions I have found in the bible it isn't funny.

It says in the Bible that God created Angels perfect? where? I am not saying your wrong, I just want a few passages so I can see for myself. I have never read that.
And yeah you are right Dorian, there are a few contradictions in the bible.

Dorian
12-19-2002, 06:33 AM
I don't have the pasage , but it does state that angels were created to serve God, they were created a little less perfect than he. It states they do not have a free will. It states that they must obey God because they have no other choice. I would say A litte less perfect than God would mean they are basicly perfect.
If I get time to find it ( since I don't read it anymore) I will post it.

Iron_Ike
12-19-2002, 06:38 AM
There are so many religions in the world how in hell is anyone supposed to know which is the "right one?" What your religion is, is usually dependent on your parents; basically your upbringing. The parents hammer in all of their beliefs into the child's mind, that it becomes the "truth" for them. Most religions also throw in the "If you don't follow these ways, you're going to Hell" type lines. So, like I said, with all the different religions there are in the world, it's more like a flip of the coin; there's no way to be sure that you've chosen the right one. To rival this belief, religions say something like, "Your heart will guide you." My heart will guide me? What if my heart guides me to Hinduism? According to Christians this sends me to hell. And if your "heart guides you" to a religion, the other religions say something along the lines of, "You were decieved by Satan to pick the wrong religion." So now, what your heart has chosen is attributed to Satan if it's not "their" religion. Don't you think if there was a God he would understand all these complications and let us all into heaven?

rottie
12-19-2002, 06:45 AM
Originally posted by Dorian
I don't have the pasage , but it does state that angels were created to serve God, they were created a little less perfect than he. It states they do not have a free will. It states that they must obey God because they have no other choice. I would say A litte less perfect than God would mean they are basicly perfect.
If I get time to find it ( since I don't read it anymore) I will post it.

ahh. I have read that they are less perfect than God, but never saw where God had made them perfect. Most of the angels have vices of some sort. It says in Ezekiel 28:15 that Lucifer was perfect in his ways until iniquity found him.

That says he was perfect in his ways which means he did no wrong, not that he was perfect.

BTW I am not going to weigh in on this arguement on either side, I have read the bible, and find it interesting is all :D

Dorian
12-19-2002, 06:46 AM
hahaha God question.... this is exactly what I try to get across to people. Who is right and who is wrong? to many claims. I would rather stay nuetral at this point.

rottie
12-19-2002, 06:48 AM
Originally posted by rottie
ahh. I have read that they are less perfect than God, but never saw where God had made them perfect. Most of the angels have vices of some sort. It says in Ezekiel 28:15 that Lucifer was perfect in his ways until iniquity found him.

That says he was perfect in his ways which means he did no wrong, not that he was perfect.

BTW I am not going to weigh in on this arguement on either side, I have read the bible, and find it interesting is all :D

Oh and the reason he wasn't perfect is because he was given freedom of choice. .. well according to the bible anyways. He was perfect in every other way.

Dorian
12-19-2002, 06:49 AM
Originally posted by rottie
ahh. I have read that they are less perfect than God, but never saw where God had made them perfect. Most of the angels have vices of some sort. It says in Ezekiel 28:15 that Lucifer was perfect in his ways until iniquity found him.

That says he was perfect in his ways which means he did no wrong, not that he was perfect.

BTW I am not going to weigh in on this arguement on either side, I have read the bible, and find it interesting is all :D


Doing no worng would imply the same as perfect. If someone did no wrong , we would consider them perfect in all ways. Only the imperfect would do wrong because they would want to, it would be an inbred natural thing. But since he had not had it inbred he therefore was perfect.

rottie
12-19-2002, 06:55 AM
Originally posted by Dorian
Doing no worng would imply the same as perfect. If someone did no wrong , we would consider them perfect in all ways. Only the imperfect would do wrong because they would want to, it would be an inbred natural thing. But since he had not had it inbred he therefore was perfect.

Well I see what you are saying, but as I stated, he was perfect in every way except he had freedom of choice. He chose to let vanity consume him, thus leading to he and 1/3 of heavens angels trying to take the throne of God.

Dorian
12-19-2002, 06:55 AM
Oh and if you look through the bible you will find this contradicting itself in a few places.
Aliens we were made by aliens... What do you think angels are? why do you think it talks of angels appearing in a fiery furnace to protect the three men? vision of flaoting objects. aliens I tell you .. we are of an alien culture, but no one wants to realize this..... why does it state in the beginning.... let US make man in OUR image? This would imply more than one. Some would say the father son and holy spirit, but I would say some species other than what we are used to.

rottie
12-19-2002, 07:02 AM
Originally posted by Dorian
Oh and if you look through the bible you will find this contradicting itself in a few places.
Aliens we were made by aliens... What do you think angels are? why do you think it talks of angels appearing in a fiery furnace to protect the three men? vision of flaoting objects. aliens I tell you .. we are of an alien culture, but no one wants to realize this..... why does it state in the beginning.... let US make man in OUR image? This would imply more than one. Some would say the father son and holy spirit, but I would say some species other than what we are used to.


Well life had to come from somewhere. Whether it was from another planet, or evolving from primordial ooze is a matter of speculation.

But heres a little passage to make you go hmmm
Speaking of the fiery red Dragon (Lucifer)
Rev. 12:4 "His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth."

Angels being referred to as stars... interesting isn't it?

Dorian
12-19-2002, 07:20 AM
What you got a bible there in front of you? I packed all my ****, because I moving a month. I can't access anything until I unpack. But the revelation is interesting. I have read it a few times. It does have some wild claims that can be mis construed as something else. Such as ships and beings from space.

rottie
12-19-2002, 07:26 AM
Originally posted by Dorian
What you got a bible there in front of you? I packed all my ****, because I moving a month. I can't access anything until I unpack. But the revelation is interesting. I have read it a few times. It does have some wild claims that can be mis construed as something else. Such as ships and beings from space.

yeah there is alot of stuff in there that could be interpreted that way. The bible is really a fascinating book, whether or not you believe.

Babs
12-19-2002, 07:56 AM
There is one problem with the satan story, since he does not have free will he could only have been doing God's will. Therefore he rebelled against God's will because it was God's will. In that case he was technically doing God's will or hew was just a machine whose actions just happened in which case they have no moral significance. It is ridiculous too say that he rebelled by following God's will which means you have to say that it is God's will that he obeyed in which case God musty have willed that he obey so that evil could come into existence, why else would he will that Satan be evil by rebelling Him.

Babs
12-19-2002, 07:59 AM
i meant that if he is not doing God's will in his rebellion then since he has no free will he is just acting like a causually determined animal in which case his actions are of no moral significance and it makes no sense to punish actions that have no moral value.

mntbikedude
12-19-2002, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by rottie
yeah there is alot of stuff in there that could be interpreted that way. The bible is really a fascinating book, whether or not you believe.

Rottie ......I am totaly impressed. I would never imagined that you knew your scriptures that well. My religion believes that we were all there and that there was a great war in heaven.

Jesus presented a plan that we would come to earth and have the freedom to choose.....he knew it would be hard, that there would be wars and bloodshed, but that it would be the only way we could grow. And he would give all the glory to the Father. You see it is the overcoming evil part where we grow.

Satans plan was that we would come to earth and he promised that we would all return, we would have no free agency only satanic control.....and he wanted the glory.

There was a great war in heaven we were all there.....1/3 followed satan and where bannished from the Fathers presence they are allowed here on earth but without a body.

We believe that the fact you are here, means that you supported Christs plan.

rottie
12-19-2002, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by Babs
i meant that if he is not doing God's will in his rebellion then since he has no free will he is just acting like a causually determined animal in which case his actions are of no moral significance and it makes no sense to punish actions that have no moral value.

Lucifer and all the angels had freedom of choice. Lucifer chose to let vanity among other sins take him over. It wasn't Gods will.

rottie
12-19-2002, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by mntbikedude
Rottie ......I am totaly impressed. I would never imagined that you knew your scriptures that well. My religion believes that we were all there and that there was a great war in heaven.

Jesus presented a plan that we would come to earth and have the freedom to choose.....he knew it would be hard, that there woudl be wars and bloodshed, but that it would be the only way we could grow. And he would give all the glory to the Father. You see it is the overcoming evil part where we grow.

Satans plan was that we would come to earth and he promised that we would all return, we would have no free agency only satanic control.....and he wanted the glory.

There was a great war in heaven we were all there.....1/3 followed satan and where bannished from the Fathers presence they are allowed here on earth but without a body.

We believe that the fact you are here, means that you supported Christs plan.


Well thats a different way of looking at it. What is your religion?

mntbikedude
12-19-2002, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by rottie
Well thats a different way of looking at it. What is your religion?


Mormon....... Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

rottie
12-19-2002, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by mntbikedude
Mormon....... Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

ahh. Never knew that was thier belief. It is an interesting way of looking at it. So along the lines of those belief systems, there must be a limited number of souls then right?

mntbikedude
12-19-2002, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by rottie
ahh. Never knew that was thier belief. It is an interesting way of looking at it. So along the lines of those belief systems, there must be a limited number of souls then right? What do you mean........

mntbikedude
12-19-2002, 08:37 AM
We believe that before this life that God created us spirtualy first .....as his spirit children we could do many things.....but we need a physical body to continue to progress......the end result would be to become like him.

We believe that the process is eternal with worlds without end....

I know it kinda sounds strange ......but at least we have a real purpose......I mean ask most ministers why we are here?

I don't do a very good job of exsplaining it .....the church web site at lds.org has a section titled the purpose of life that does it better.

rottie
12-19-2002, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by mntbikedude
What do you mean........

well ok what you said was, we were all there in the beginning, and that a third of us went with Lucifer, and the rest stayed and followed God. The ones that followed God were given bodies, and allowed to live on the earth. Us. You and me right?

mntbikedude
12-19-2002, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by rottie
well ok what you said was, we were all there in the beginning, and that a third of us went with Lucifer, and the rest stayed and followed God. The ones that followed God were given bodies, and allowed to live on the earth. Us. You and me right?

Yes you me everyone that is on the earth

rottie
12-19-2002, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by mntbikedude
We believe that before this life that God created us spirtualy first .....as his spirit children we could do many things.....but we need a physical body to continue to progress......the end result would be to become like him.

We believe that the process is eternal with worlds without end....

I know it kinda sound strange ......but at least we have a real purpose......I mean ask most ministers why we are here?

I don't do a very good job of exsplaining it .....the church web site at lds.org has a section titled the purpose of life that does it better.


No you explained it well, and I am not judging it whether it is right or wrong, just asking questions. :) .

rottie
12-19-2002, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by mntbikedude
Yes you me eveyone that is on the earth

right so that means all the souls had to be divided 1/3 and 2/3 at the beginning, after the great war.

mntbikedude
12-19-2002, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by rottie
right so that means all the souls had to be divided 1/3 and 2/3 at the beginning, after the great war.

Yes 1/3 of Gods children followed satan.....and were banished form Gods presence......and are allowed here on earth for a season..

rottie
12-19-2002, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by mntbikedude
Yes 1/3 of Gods children followed satan.....and were banished form Gods presence......and are allowed here on earth for a season..

right. Now if he continues to make souls, how does he judge which ones go to which side? it would have to be determined before hand to keep the balances right am i correct? 1/3 and 2/3 .

rottie
12-19-2002, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by rottie
right. Now if he continues to make souls, how does he judge which ones go to which side? it would have to be determined before hand to keep the balances right am i correct? 1/3 and 2/3 .


Or does Satan still just have his 1/3 of the original souls, and all the new ones God is making are on God's side?

Then you would have to account for people like Hitler, and Bin Laden, and Attila the Hun, and Ghangis Khan walking around with bodies when they are clearly on the side os Lucifer himself.

So having a limited number of souls makes the most sense in that belief wouldnt it?

rottie
12-19-2002, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by rottie
Or does Satan still just have his 1/3 of the original souls, and all the new ones God is making are on God's side?

Then you would have to account for people like Hitler, and Bin Laden, and Attila the Hun, and Ghangis Khan walking around with bodies when they are clearly on the side os Lucifer himself.

So having a limited number of souls makes the most sense in that belief wouldnt it?


Btw there are religions out there that do believe in a limited number of souls, so dont think I am saying anything is wrong with that belief, iam just curious.

mntbikedude
12-19-2002, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by rottie
Or does Satan still just have his 1/3 of the original souls, and all the new ones God is making are on God's side?

Then you would have to account for people like Hitler, and Bin Laden, and Attila the Hun, and Ghangis Khan walking around with bodies when they are clearly on the side os Lucifer himself.

So having a limited number of souls makes the most sense in that belief wouldnt it?

That is an interesting question.....is God creating more spirit children? I don't know the answer.....but all the people ever born on the earth or ever will be born on THIS earth were there in the great war......satan still has his third and someday they will not be allowed on the earth.

And yes all of those men have followed satan, (turned to the dark side if you will) I believe its is very much like Star Wars.....but originaly they chose to follow Christs plan.......everyone here regardless of how wicked they now are chose to follow Christs plan......the fact they have a body proves that.

rleeson
12-19-2002, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by rottie
well ok what you said was, we were all there in the beginning, and that a third of us went with Lucifer, and the rest stayed and followed God. The ones that followed God were given bodies, and allowed to live on the earth. Us. You and me right?

That's not any where I've been in the bible I've seen they start with the "creation of the world" that angels exist is based on visitation to Noah, Lott, etc I don't recall that the origin of angels is ever explained. The creation of man has no connection with the creation of the angels... I think you have rolled some occult views of creation in there somewhere. A lot of the things people think are in the bible aren't.

mntbikedude
12-19-2002, 09:15 AM
Well gotta get to work but before I go I will answer a couple of questions that may come up..

Why cant we remember our pre-earth life.....part of the test is to live by faith....read my first long post in this thread....by Spencer Kimbal. but sometimes we get a glimpse I think ...like when you meet someone that you swear you knew before.

Ok so what happens to all those people that are of other faiths....or savages that never even knew about Jesus Christ.

They will be judged according to the truths that they had while in mortality.....but all will be taught the Gospel in its pure form and will be given the chance to accept it or reject it.....and eventually the knowlege of our pre-earth life will be restored .....hey at least we got that part covered.......

Regardless of peoples training the Light of Christ is given to all mankind.....it is known as a concience to the man on the street.....if we follow that light than we are given more Light ....if we don't we can eventually become insensitive to it ......and be past feeling.....that is what scares me at time with some on this board they appear at times to have lost the ability to feel.....

rottie
12-19-2002, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by rleeson
That's not any where I've been in the bible I've seen they start with the "creation of the world" that angels exist is based on visitation to Noah, Lott, etc I don't recall that the origin of angels is ever explained. The creation of man has no connection with the creation of the angels... I think you have rolled some occult views of creation in there somewhere. A lot of things people think is in the bible isn't.

What he is saying is that we, all of us are angels. And the bible talks about angels before the creation of earth.


"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundations?" God asked of Job, "Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone -- while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy." Job 38:4-7

The angels shouted for joy. proof that they were around when the earth was created. And Lucifer makes an appearance well before Noah and Lott. Garden of Eden ring a bell?

I am not saying whther or not they are correct in their beliefs, but to say Angels were created when the earth was, and we only know about them becasue of visits to Noah and Lott, is wrong.

mntbikedude
12-19-2002, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by rottie
What he is saying is that we, all of us are angels. And the bible talks about angels before the creation of earth.


"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundations?" God asked of Job, "Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone -- while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy." Job 38:4-7

The angels shouted for joy. proof that they were around when the earth was created. And Lucifer makes an appearance well before Noah and Lott. Garden of Eden ring a bell?

I am not saying whther or not they are correct in their beliefs, but to say Angels were created when the earth was, and we only know about them becasue of visits to Noah and Lott, is wrong.
Oh man I gotta get to work......but I wanted to clarify that I don't believe we were angels......but spirit children of our Heavenly Father.....as spirits we could move about , talk...we looked like a person......but not angels

rottie
12-19-2002, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by mntbikedude
Oh man I gotta get to work......but I wanted to clarify that I don't believe we were angels......but spirit children of our Heavenly Father.....as spirts we could move about , talk...we looked like a person......but not angels


ahh. so the 1/3 and 2/3 of heaven wasnt all angels. but spirits, close to what we are now.

mntbikedude
12-19-2002, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by rottie
ahh. so the 1/3 and 2/3 of heaven wasnt all angels. but spirits, close to what we are now. It was us without a physical body......just that simple us - a body = our soul

rottie
12-19-2002, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by mntbikedude
It was us without a physical body......just that simple us - a body = our soul

aight. gotcha. thats pretty damn simple.. And I suppose it doesnt say in the bible "angels" it says heavenly hosts or some such thing. So yeah they wouldnt HAVE to be angels.

rottie
12-19-2002, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by mntbikedude
The Bible does refer to them as angels in Rev 12: 7 The picture that people think of as angels with wings is not what I am referring to.. As you may or may not know the LDS church believes in modern prophets and continueing revelation...and also we believe the Bible to be the work of God as far as it is translated correctly....we also believe in other books of scripture....

I can already hear you in my mind going ummm how convenient.....but I am sorry I could never believe in a religion that did not believe that God can continue to clarify and lead his children thru prophets.....

And I know that while I am gone you all can say we are occult or what ever......but just remember the job we did on the winter olympic.....everyone was amazed the critics feared we would turn it into the mormon games .......everyone was pleased and left Utah with a whole different perspective on what Mormons are like.........and again I referr you to the churches web site lds.org.

I am tried on the forum to keep my religious thougts to more general......but you asked and I told you.

Now why would you go and say that I would say all those things about you and your religion? I have already stated that I wasn't attacking you or your church, and I thought we were having a civil conversation here, but if you think I'm going to bash you once you leave, i will say good day to you sir, and continue this conversation no further.

mntbikedude
12-19-2002, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by rottie
Now why would you go and say that I would say all those things about you and your religion? I have already stated that I wasn't attacking you or your church, and I thought we were having a civil conversation here, but if you think I'm going to bash you once you leave, i will say good day to you sir, and continue this conversation no further.

Rottie I am sorry you are totally right .....and I am sorry that I got on the defensive without you giving any provocation........I truly am sorry....

Please don't judge the church by me , I am just a guy who likes to lift weights and am just trying to make sense of it all just like you.

rleeson
12-19-2002, 10:12 AM
Unless you are going it invoke a time warp there's a problem here...

The creation of the man and his soul were the same event no where is there anything about angels being "downgraded" to men... Angels must have been created and some fallen prior to that for Lucifer to be present, as the deciever, at the fall of man from grace. The first occurance of Angels other then the "deceiver" to run Adam and Eve out of eden and to bar the way back... I the split between God an Lucifer is the result of the position in which God held man how can Lucifer be the deciever if the split came after the fall of man lets get a time line that make some kind of sense here...

How can you claim this is more rational than evolution??? What are you smoking guys???

rottie
12-19-2002, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by rleeson
Unless you are going it invoke a time warp there's a problem here...

The creation of the man and his soul were the same event no where is there anything about angels being "downgraded" to men... Angels must have been created and some fallen prior to that for Lucifer to be present, as the deciever, at the fall of man from grace. The first occurance of Angels other then the "deceiver" to run Adam and Eve out of eden and to bar the way back... I the split between God an Lucifer is the result of the position in which God held man how can Lucifer be the deciever if the split came after the fall of man lets get a time line that make some kind of sense here...

How can you claim this is more rational than evolution??? What are you smoking guys???

Alrighty *******. Firstly, I don't remember anyone denouncing evolution. So calm the f*ck down. Secondly, no I don't smoke anything, and if your going to break this conversation down into name calling, I will bring your flaming to the attention of the ops.

Now Sparky, the deciever is and was Lucifer. Lucifer was the fallen angel. The divide between Lucifer and God didn't happen because of mankind, it happened because Lucifer thought he could run the entire show better than God.


So what is so damn difficult about the timeline for you to understand? quote some damn verses to back up your claims.

mntbikedude
12-19-2002, 10:29 AM
Well Rev 12:7 talks about the war in Heaven and Jeremiah talks about pre-existence.

Jeremiah 1 :5

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

It goes to show that if he knew him and ordain him before he was formed in the bellie that he must have existed before..

Dorian
12-19-2002, 10:33 AM
I said it once before... everyone has their own veiws of creation or evolution. There are many beleifs out there. I was talking to a guy about the koran once. he was telling me how the koran states that if a woman is forced to have sex and gets pregnant she will be allowed to live until the child is weaned and then she is stoned to death. This sort of an example of the different beleifs. Some beleive that christianity is the works of the devil. Some say mormons are working of the devil and have blinded them all same with Jehovah witnesses. Thinking only 144,ooo are going to be allowed into heaven and most of them are the ones who work for the watchtower society. Thats why they try so hard going door to door to get as many Points as possible to even have a chance.
Religion is hoopla. I beleive in me and what I can and cannot do. I am the one who controls what happens to me. ie; if I eat ****ty then I probably end up sick. If I sit on my ass all day I will end up fat and a slob.
My life, no one elses. My control, no one elses.

Dorian
12-19-2002, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by mntbikedude
Well Rev 12:7 talks about the war in Heaven and Jeremiah talks about pre-existence.

Jeremiah 1 :5

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

It goes to show that if he knew him and ordain him before he was formed in the bellie that he must have existed before..

As God states I knew thee before I formed thee. It is because christianity beleives that God has a master plan for all mankind. He is at the beggining of time and the end of time. He steps in and out of it as he likes. Now to know someone before they were born is to be able to be at the beggining or end of time. hence I am the alpha and omega. the beginning and the end.
It does not prove anything about pre existenc of a spirit.

mntbikedude
12-19-2002, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by Dorian
As God states I knew thee before I formed thee. It is because christianity beleives that God has a master plan for all mankind. He is at the beggining of time and the end of time. He steps in and out of it as he likes. Now to know someone before they were born is to be able to be at the beggining or end of time. hence I am the alpha and omega. the beginning and the end.
It does not prove anything about pre existenc of a spirit.

Yea I know ......my purpose isnt to prove that or say that is what you should believe.....I am just stating what I believe.

rottie
12-19-2002, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by Dorian
I said it once before... everyone has their own veiws of creation or evolution. There are many beleifs out there. I was talking to a guy about the koran once. he was telling me how the koran states that if a woman is forced to have sex and gets pregnant she will be allowed to live until the child is weaned and then she is stoned to death. This sort of an example of the different beleifs. Some beleive that christianity is the works of the devil. Some say mormons are working of the devil and have blinded them all same with Jehovah witnesses. Thinking only 144,ooo are going to be allowed into heaven and most of them are the ones who work for the watchtower society. Thats why they try so hard going door to door to get as many Points as possible to even have a chance.
Religion is hoopla. I beleive in me and what I can and cannot do. I am the one who controls what happens to me. ie; if I eat ****ty then I probably end up sick. If I sit on my ass all day I will end up fat and a slob.
My life, no one elses. My control, no one elses.

I look at the bible as a book. Just the same as Huckleberry Finn, except I think there is alot of historical significance to it. I am a history buff, so the bible intrigues me. It bothers the hell out of me when people try to shove one view or opinion down my throat, like this ******* Leeson was trying by stating evolution is the answer.

mntbikedude
12-19-2002, 10:47 AM
Hey Dorian can we at least agree that even if it is a fairy tale .....that the concept of a pre-existence is intriguing.....

http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,1144-1,00.html

eternal progression.....some heavy thoughts.....I mean there has gotta be a reason.....

Dorian
12-19-2002, 10:48 AM
It is an interesting book, but what is history and what is not. What is bull and what is not? Remember the book was translated so many times the original context could be lost. Aramayan has no words for some of the stuff in the bible. man had to guess it was proper cause it fit.
It may be a history book but I would like to read the orinal uncut un-edited untouched version. every beleif writes the book to suit their needs and purpose.
If I rea the orinal I might have a better chance at explaining things to people that I am still asked about.

mntbikedude
12-19-2002, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by Dorian
It is an interesting book, but what is history and what is not. What is bull and what is not? Remember the book was translated so many times the original context could be lost. Aramayan has no words for some of the stuff in the bible. man had to guess it was proper cause it fit.
It may be a history book but I would like to read the orinal uncut un-edited untouched version. every beleif writes the book to suit their needs and purpose.
If I rea the orinal I might have a better chance at explaining things to people that I am still asked about.

That is exactly why we believe in a need for modern prophets and apostles.....I mean the Bible is just a history book written by prophets, it is the word of God as far as it is translated correctly ....but it isnt God. It is a book

rottie
12-19-2002, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by Dorian
It is an interesting book, but what is history and what is not. What is bull and what is not? Remember the book was translated so many times the original context could be lost. Aramayan has no words for some of the stuff in the bible. man had to guess it was proper cause it fit.
It may be a history book but I would like to read the orinal uncut un-edited untouched version. every beleif writes the book to suit their needs and purpose.
If I rea the orinal I might have a better chance at explaining things to people that I am still asked about.

Hell yes, id like to read the original as well. AS far as whats history and what isnt, well how do you tell what is history in other history books? I think its a history book with some soap opera thrown in, and an all around excellent read. If you see it as deepeer thats fine, if not thats fine too, but NEVER tell me how to see it. See what I mean?

Dorian
12-19-2002, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by mntbikedude
Hey Dorian can we at least agree that even if it is a fairy tale .....that the concept of a pre-existence is intriguing.....(damn I wish I could spell) And before we were spirts we were intelligences......

And how bout this thought.......again just a what if

As Man is God once was
And as God is man may become

eternal progression.....some heavy thoughts.....I mean there has gotta be a reason.....

At least give me that this is not the stuff you learned in Sunday school.

Yeah there is some possibility of anything being true. Spirit beings from mars...... Some race from a galaxy far far away... left us here as an experiment that went wrong. Anything is possible.
I remember a story My granpa told me. I will make it quick..
There was young iroquois boy who had a fascination with eagles. He thought he could see through their eyes. No one in the clan beleived him. One day he was playing with feathers to look like an eagle on the top of a huge cliff. Some kids decided to put him down and tie the feathers on him so tightly that it cut into the sking and made him bleew. He now had wings some one said. Fly eagle boy, fly away if you can... The boy was afraid but he saw an eagle appera over the mountain side and call to him. the boy , to the surprise of the others, Jumped and started to fly. at once he was transformed into an eagle. and flew away with his spirit guide. His name was red eagle.
The leson here was to take a leap of faith and listen to your guide because he knows the way.
Does this sound far fetched to you? I beleived it when I was a child. as did I beleive in Santa.

mntbikedude
12-19-2002, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by Dorian
Yeah there is some possibility of anything being true. Spirit beings from mars...... Some race from a galaxy far far away... left us here as an experiment that went wrong. Anything is possible.
I remember a story My granpa told me. I will make it quick..
There was young iroquois boy who had a fascination with eagles. He thought he could see through their eyes. No one in the clan beleived him. One day he was playing with feathers to look like an eagle on the top of a huge cliff. Some kids decided to put him down and tie the feathers on him so tightly that it cut into the sking and made him bleew. He now had wings some one said. Fly eagle boy, fly away if you can... The boy was afraid but he saw an eagle appera over the mountain side and call to him. the boy , to the surprise of the others, Jumped and started to fly. at once he was transformed into an eagle. and flew away with his spirit guide. His name was red eagle.
The leson here was to take a leap of faith and listen to your guide because he knows the way.
Does this sound far fetched to you? I beleived it when I was a child. as did I beleive in Santa.

I hear ya loud and clear LOL:D

Dorian
12-19-2002, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by rottie
Hell yes, id like to read the original as well. AS far as whats history and what isnt, well how do you tell what is history in other history books? I think its a history book with some soap opera thrown in, and an all around excellent read. If you see it as deepeer thats fine, if not thats fine too, but NEVER tell me how to see it. See what I mean?


You don't you just have to kinda look beyond the Bull and hope it is as accurate as it can be at the time. I have a book on the civil war dated back to the early 1900's or so. I forget I put it away so it would stay nice. But even that may be incorrect. Go talk to some old timer and ask him about something. He will say... well I recollect ...... his memroy is what he saw and wanted to remember but not neccesarily what was right.
I won't ever tell anyone what to beleive , so that is not even an issue here.

rottie
12-19-2002, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by Dorian
You don't you just have to kinda look beyond the Bull and hope it is as accurate as it can be at the time. I have a book on the civil war dated back to the early 1900's or so. I forget I put it away so it would stay nice. But even that may be incorrect. Go talk to some old timer and ask him about something. He will say... well I recollect ...... his memroy is what he saw and wanted to remember but not neccesarily what was right.
I won't ever tell anyone what to beleive , so that is not even an issue here.

I agree. the bible is someone relating their experiences, i think thats part of the appeal to me.

BPP
12-19-2002, 11:54 AM
:D just wanted to throw inthat this has been a very well thought out, entertaining discussion

mntbike->thats the first ideas or thoughts from your religion I have heard..very interesting!
Rottie->didnt know ya knew the Bible so well..very cool

-Bagel Muffin-
12-19-2002, 12:39 PM
Hey MntBike...have you been through the MTC? You're doing a great job:)

mntbikedude
12-19-2002, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by -Bagel Muffin-
Hey MntBike...have you been through the MTC? You're doing a great job:)

LOL No the MTC was before my time ......Served a two year mission to New Zealand from 1978 to 1980 ......happiest two years of my life.

And BTW thats Brother Mntbikedude to you :D

TranceNRG
12-19-2002, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by Dorian
Oh and if you look through the bible you will find this contradicting itself in a few places.
Aliens we were made by aliens... What do you think angels are? why do you think it talks of angels appearing in a fiery furnace to protect the three men? vision of flaoting objects. aliens I tell you .. we are of an alien culture, but no one wants to realize this..... why does it state in the beginning.... let US make man in OUR image? This would imply more than one. Some would say the father son and holy spirit, but I would say some species other than what we are used to.


hey man
I always have that idea in the back of my head.
Cool idea
Let's see, Moses went up the mountain and light appeared to him and some magical "fire" wrote on the stone.
Jesus's mother Maryam saw three glowing angels when Jesus was being born.
Mohammed went to a mountain until he was revealed with the light of knowledge.


I always used to think that way :)
but for now... I kep that in mind when I'm studying other stuff and researching more about faith and religion.

TranceNRG
12-19-2002, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Babs
There is one problem with the satan story, since he does not have free will he could only have been doing God's will. Therefore he rebelled against God's will because it was God's will. In that case he was technically doing God's will or hew was just a machine whose actions just happened in which case they have no moral significance. It is ridiculous too say that he rebelled by following God's will which means you have to say that it is God's will that he obeyed in which case God musty have willed that he obey so that evil could come into existence, why else would he will that Satan be evil by rebelling Him.

agreed.
Satan was never an angel. Just like Babs said, Angels do not haved their own free will. That is another reason why humans are greater than angels. So how did satan "decided" to not bow down to humans if he didn't have his own will.

Well... based on my research in Islam, I figured out that in Quran God never mentioned Satan to be an angle. In Quran it mentioned how there are Angels, Humans and Jinns.
Jinnes are another intelligant form who have their own will. I'm not sure how to explain a Jinn. Because I've never seen one. But Jinns look like the devil. Half Horse Half Human.

In Jinn you can find good and evil
There are good Jinns and Bad jinns.

so ya... I just wanted to say based on my research so far what I've found.
:)

thank you

TranceNRG
12-19-2002, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by rottie
Lucifer and all the angels had freedom of choice. Lucifer chose to let vanity among other sins take him over. It wasn't Gods will.

Rottie I'm pretty sure in the Bible it expresses how Angels do not have freedom of Choice.

TranceNRG
12-19-2002, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by Dorian
I said it once before... everyone has their own veiws of creation or evolution. There are many beleifs out there. I was talking to a guy about the koran once. he was telling me how the koran states that if a woman is forced to have sex and gets pregnant she will be allowed to live until the child is weaned and then she is stoned to death. This sort of an example of the different beleifs. Some beleive that christianity is the works of the devil. Some say mormons are working of the devil and have blinded them all same with Jehovah witnesses. Thinking only 144,ooo are going to be allowed into heaven and most of them are the ones who work for the watchtower society. Thats why they try so hard going door to door to get as many Points as possible to even have a chance.
Religion is hoopla. I beleive in me and what I can and cannot do. I am the one who controls what happens to me. ie; if I eat ****ty then I probably end up sick. If I sit on my ass all day I will end up fat and a slob.
My life, no one elses. My control, no one elses.


Dorian... where exactly did you hear that about Women in Quran.
I highly doubt it is true.
I'm reading the Quran and still haven't encountered it.

I don't believe any muslim would agree with what you just said.
Unless you asked someone who has the same mentality of taliban. Someone who degrades women, which is totally unaccepted in Islam.

so ya... I was shocked when i read that :)

TranceNRG
12-19-2002, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by mntbikedude
That is exactly why we believe in a need for modern prophets and apostles.....I mean the Bible is just a history book written by prophets, it is the word of God as far as it is translated correctly ....but it isnt God. It is a book

here's my opinion as a muslim.
I believe Torah, Bible and Quran are all holy books with a divine source.

However, through time Torah and Bible have been changed. However, muslims believe that God kept Quran the same way it was relieved to Prophet Muhammed.
Now, Obviously, all other non-muslims would disagree. I'm not saying that hey it's truth. I'm saying that you cannot disprove it.
So it could be true.
In my opinion the only way to find is by reading the Quran.
If someone has read the Bible, then he/she decided to read th Quran, they'll noticed how similar they are, and how the difference is as thin as a line.

but again, it is hard for someone to accept that his holy book has been changed and it's not the original.

so, I'd understand why alota people would disagree with this.

rleeson
12-19-2002, 04:44 PM
I know that it is Islamic traidition (?or law) the Quran is not translated to other languages. But over the last roughly 1500 years it may have undergone repeated transcription errors that leave it as open to the question of "is it really the word of God?" as is the Torah and Bible. It also has been expended by commentarys that have been edit through the centuries... as with the Bible some views drift in and out of favor. Who is to say what the true word of God is... none of us was there... It's all a matter of faith... no one knows.

Dorian
12-19-2002, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
Dorian... where exactly did you hear that about Women in Quran.
I highly doubt it is true.
I'm reading the Quran and still haven't encountered it.

I don't believe any muslim would agree with what you just said.
Unless you asked someone who has the same mentality of taliban. Someone who degrades women, which is totally unaccepted in Islam.

so ya... I was shocked when i read that :)

Whether or not you beleive it was told to me by a follower of that book. There is a lot more laws they have that even go deeper. I am only stating what I was told. I have never read the book. Though I am probably going to., to at least have a basis on research.
but I gotta say it does sound real to me, I mean who else treats their women that way. Cover your face and walk behind me. Etc....

rottie
12-19-2002, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
agreed.
Satan was never an angel. Just like Babs said, Angels do not haved their own free will. That is another reason why humans are greater than angels. So how did satan "decided" to not bow down to humans if he didn't have his own will.

Well... based on my research in Islam, I figured out that in Quran God never mentioned Satan to be an angle. In Quran it mentioned how there are Angels, Humans and Jinns.
Jinnes are another intelligant form who have their own will. I'm not sure how to explain a Jinn. Because I've never seen one. But Jinns look like the devil. Half Horse Half Human.

In Jinn you can find good and evil
There are good Jinns and Bad jinns.

so ya... I just wanted to say based on my research so far what I've found.
:)

thank you


Well according to the bible, Satan WAS an angel.

This is God speaking of Lucifer before sin was found in him from Ezek. 28:12-15

"You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in the Garden of Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created. You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones."

That tells you right there. I have no idea what the Quran says on the subject, having never read it, but the bible states that Lucifer was an angel. And that Lucifer was cast down upon the earth to await final judgement.

And this from Isa. 14:12-14

"How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart: I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest side of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High."

Pretty crystal to me that he was making a decision there. I will exalt my throne above the stars of God. That is a choice to become greater than God. That is crystal clear as far as I am concerned. And thats only one passage.


So yes, lucifer Was an angel, and yes Lucifer did have freedom of choice. I have proven both.

MartialArtist
12-19-2002, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by rottie
I look at the bible as a book. Just the same as Huckleberry Finn, except I think there is alot of historical significance to it. I am a history buff, so the bible intrigues me. It bothers the hell out of me when people try to shove one view or opinion down my throat, like this ******* Leeson was trying by stating evolution is the answer.
Many people forget that the OT is the history of the Jews. You don't have to believe in a lot of stuff as people like you could view it as symbolism, but it gives a LOT more historical information that is very accurate than say, the Illiad.

The Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Assyrians, the Persians. Emperors are mentioned, kings are mentioned. Even in the NT, they name everything down (especially Luke who was a doctor/historian who was not a Jew).

And the Bible affected Western literature so much. Songs, books, stories, and TV stories even TODAY are allusions to the Bible.

The Bible cannot be eliminated from a historical point of view. Same with the Qauran. With the Quaran, we get an idea of the culture around the time. A lot of the rules aren't religious rules, but cultural rules.

Religion should never be about shoving it down other people's throats but SHARING ideas. If the person doesn't want to talk about it, you can be persistent but you have to respect the person's wishes.

A lot of the questions here, many like the ones from Dorian are common questions made by everyone, including the religious themselves. Most were answered, but I will answer the ones that I can remember.

Dorian, you do have control of your life. God does not control you, or anyone. Hence, free-will. You do your own stuff. That is, unless you ask for help, then He will help you as he sees fit.

MartialArtist
12-19-2002, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by rleeson
I know that it is Islamic traidition (?or law) the Quran is not translated to other languages. But over the last roughly 1500 years it may have undergone repeated transcription errors that leave it as open to the question of "is it really the word of God?" as is the Torah and Bible. It also has been expended by commentarys that have been edit through the centuries... as with the Bible some views drift in and out of favor. Who is to say what the true word of God is... none of us was there... It's all a matter of faith... no one knows.
Actually, the Bible for that matter, is pretty accurate.

There are thousands of extants that are pretty much identical to later translations during the Middle Ages (after the Middle Ages, there really was no need as there was the printing press and Korea's movable type traveled West and blah blah).

There are Latin versions, the Greek versions, and Aramaic and they all correspond. Hewbrew is a language that is not so easy to translate (English to Spanish but more like English to Mandarin but harder). However, they still verify with the other versions. Even writings 5000 miles away are identical.

The error rate of the Bible is over 99.99%. Most errors are grammatical and the biggest error dealt with double meanings with "Day" such as day as in morning, and day as in a 24 hour period.

However, it is nothing that can change the basic tenets of anything, not even the smallest of rules or regulations. Nothing to change the theology.

Hell, it sounds pretty good in English too. Psalms, Proverbs, and all the other Poetry books are still in a very powerful format and uses a good choice of words.

Everyone that copied went through rigid processes to minimize mistakes, such as a number system for every character and every detail and if there was ONE mistake, they would have to rewrite it. It's interesting, although I won't go into more detail.

Dorian
12-19-2002, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by MartialArtist

.

Dorian, you do have control of your life. God does not control you, or anyone. Hence, free-will. You do your own stuff. That is, unless you ask for help, then He will help you as he sees fit.

I have spoke to the congregation about free will all the time. After ten years I defenitely understand these veiws.
As for Gods help well lets just say thats your beleif........ I beleive man is a being who helps himself. he has the power to heal himself and do anything he so desires to do. I have always beleived that if you wanted to do somethign bad enough that you would find a way. God does not show me the way. He may show you the way , and there is a logical explanation for that. But I will save it for later. I just want to see your response so far.

Awais
12-19-2002, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by Dorian
I said it once before... everyone has their own veiws of creation or evolution. There are many beleifs out there. I was talking to a guy about the koran once. he was telling me how the koran states that if a woman is forced to have sex and gets pregnant she will be allowed to live until the child is weaned and then she is stoned to death. This sort of an example of the different beleifs. Some beleive that christianity is the works of the devil. Some say mormons are working of the devil and have blinded them all same with Jehovah witnesses. Thinking only 144,ooo are going to be allowed into heaven and most of them are the ones who work for the watchtower society. Thats why they try so hard going door to door to get as many Points as possible to even have a chance.
Religion is hoopla. I beleive in me and what I can and cannot do. I am the one who controls what happens to me. ie; if I eat ****ty then I probably end up sick. If I sit on my ass all day I will end up fat and a slob.
My life, no one elses. My control, no one elses.

ummmm bro whoever told u is bull****tting you about the woman thing. Dont believe that moron.

MartialArtist
12-19-2002, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by Dorian
I have spoke to the congregation about free will all the time. After ten years I defenitely understand these veiws.
As for Gods help well lets just say thats your beleif........ I beleive man is a being who helps himself. he has the power to heal himself and do anything he so desires to do. I have always beleived that if you wanted to do somethign bad enough that you would find a way. God does not show me the way. He may show you the way , and there is a logical explanation for that. But I will save it for later. I just want to see your response so far.
God only shows you the way if you go that way. Simple as that.

If you want to do something really bad, then chances are, you could do that. How is it against faith though?

TranceNRG
12-20-2002, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by Dorian
Whether or not you beleive it was told to me by a follower of that book. There is a lot more laws they have that even go deeper. I am only stating what I was told. I have never read the book. Though I am probably going to., to at least have a basis on research.
but I gotta say it does sound real to me, I mean who else treats their women that way. Cover your face and walk behind me. Etc....


you see my friend...
this post shows how you think of this religion just like any other person in the west.
I'm muslim and my whole family is muslim. But my mom doesn't even put on a scarf. she prays and all the other stuff. I think she actually has the last say in anything. Even more than my dad.
So once again you stereotyped. No matter how many people you see like you can't judge the religion.

"never judge a religion by it's people judge it by its scripture"

but again, it's up to you to make your decision. If you think whoever told you that knew what he was talking about, then accept it.

I follow what he follows too and I've never even heard of such a thing.

so ya.
If all you know about women in islam and their rights, is covering up and walking behind their husbands then I don't really know what to say.

TranceNRG
12-20-2002, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by rottie
Well according to the bible, Satan WAS an angel.

This is God speaking of Lucifer before sin was found in him from Ezek. 28:12-15

"You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in the Garden of Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created. You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones."

That tells you right there. I have no idea what the Quran says on the subject, having never read it, but the bible states that Lucifer was an angel. And that Lucifer was cast down upon the earth to await final judgement.

And this from Isa. 14:12-14

"How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart: I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest side of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High."

Pretty crystal to me that he was making a decision there. I will exalt my throne above the stars of God. That is a choice to become greater than God. That is crystal clear as far as I am concerned. And thats only one passage.


So yes, lucifer Was an angel, and yes Lucifer did have freedom of choice. I have proven both.


so Rottie, you believe that the angels have the freedom of choice?

TranceNRG
12-20-2002, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by Awais
ummmm bro whoever told u is bull****tting you about the woman thing. Dont believe that moron.


exactly...
I really don't know where some people get their info about a religion and then they end up judging the religion based on what they hear.

rottie
12-20-2002, 04:14 AM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
so Rottie, you believe that the angels have the freedom of choice?

Well the Bible says that they do. Read the last part of my post. its clear as day that Lucifer was making a choice. Whether to stay at the throne of God, or become something greater. He chose to become something greater, and now roams the earth waiting for his final judgement. Thats crystal in my mind. What does the Quran say on ths subject?

Dorian
12-20-2002, 07:05 AM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
exactly...
I really don't know where some people get their info about a religion and then they end up judging the religion based on what they hear.


I am not judging anyones faith. I am only stating what I hear.
If it's not true then so be it. I have no reasoning to judge your beleif system, it is yours, and I have my own. But it is good to question it.

Dorian
12-20-2002, 07:08 AM
As for freedom of choice. it simply states ( I forget where) that man was made a little lower than the angels . But we where given something they have not, which is a freedom to chooose. Many areas in the bible explains how the angels are not given a free will. Lucifer had one , because he was Gods favorite angel and the head of of them all. But no other angel once th fall of lucifer has had free will since. So in a sense you could say at one time they may have had it. But it was revoked.

Red Oktober
12-20-2002, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by tre14
i find it ironic how a lot of atheists pray to God before they die or when they think they are going to die.

LMFAO! It is called CYA (Covering Your Ass)

MartialArtist
12-20-2002, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by Dorian
As for freedom of choice. it simply states ( I forget where) that man was made a little lower than the angels . But we where given something they have not, which is a freedom to chooose. Many areas in the bible explains how the angels are not given a free will. Lucifer had one , because he was Gods favorite angel and the head of of them all. But no other angel once th fall of lucifer has had free will since. So in a sense you could say at one time they may have had it. But it was revoked.
?

We are more important than angels and we are placed higher up.

God views humans as his sons, while angels are servants. We may be servants of God, but we are also looked as his pride and joy.

Dorian
12-20-2002, 05:49 PM
I guess it's time to dig out the bible to prove my words.....

MartialArtist
12-20-2002, 05:56 PM
http://web.1earth.net/~youth/more-angels.html

Angels are never above humans. They are higher than us in terms of that they can interact with God in not such a roundabout way, but in God's eyes, humans are superior.

ZachG_85
12-20-2002, 06:05 PM
Dammit not another one of these.

I'm not even going to enter the debate because it's pointless. Why not have some more abortion, gun law, execution, and homosexuality threads?

Man, people, just stop replying to this and let it die, no atheists are going to have their views changed, nor are any theists.

ZachG_85
12-20-2002, 06:24 PM
And fine, I'll answer the question.

When good things happen, I say, "Rockin, something good happened."

When I'm dying, and have no one to turn to for help, I will realize that unless I do something to deliver myself, or someone else finds me, I am going to die, and will hence have no one to try and plead for help with. Simple as that.

Ugh.

mntbikedude
12-20-2002, 07:34 PM
Hey am I the only one that thinks that someday were going to be watchin TV and its gonna be about this bodybuilder turned preacher .......and wadda ya know its Zach_G ......just remember when it happens you heard it from me first...:D

ZachG_85
12-20-2002, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by mntbikedude
Hey am I the only one that thinks that someday were going to be watchin TV and its gonna be about this bodybuilder turned preacher .......and wadda ya know its Zach_G ......just remember when it happens you heard it from me first...:D

I could easily be the first Atheist Christian preacher. I'd be tempted to do it now.

All the holy books (bible, koran, etc) are filled with great words of wisdom, teachings, and whatnot. Doesn't mean you have to believe in their assertions of deities.

mntbikedude
12-20-2002, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by ZachG_85
I could easily be the first Atheist Christian preacher. I'd be tempted to do it now.

All the holy books (bible, koran, etc) are filled with great words of wisdom, teachings, and whatnot. Doesn't mean you have to believe in their assertions of deities.


Hey I did'nt say what kind of preacher :D

BPP
12-21-2002, 01:18 AM
Originally posted by ZachG_85
I could easily be the first Atheist Christian preacher. I'd be tempted to do it now.

All the holy books (bible, koran, etc) are filled with great words of wisdom, teachings, and whatnot. Doesn't mean you have to believe in their assertions of deities.


bump
I believe in God
but take the bible more as a guide to moral living
i dont practice at any church
i have my beliefs, and am content with that right now in my life

Smackdown
12-21-2002, 02:30 AM
Originally posted by Red Oktober
LMFAO! It is called CYA (Covering Your Ass)

Sure it is oKtober... :rolleyes:

Trevor makes comments often like that without having seen anything to back up his statements. He hasn't seen one atheist on his deathbed yet he believes that many pray to god before they die...

Generalized statements with little or no sample to back them up. Hasty generalization on his part.

Dorian
12-21-2002, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by ZachG_85
Dammit not another one of these.

I'm not even going to enter the debate because it's pointless. Why not have some more abortion, gun law, execution, and homosexuality threads?

Man, people, just stop replying to this and let it die, no atheists are going to have their views changed, nor are any theists.


Chill out man... People like to debate or argue alot and I guess i am one of those people.

MartialArtist
12-21-2002, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by Smackdown
Sure it is oKtober... :rolleyes:

Trevor makes comments often like that without having seen anything to back up his statements. He hasn't seen one atheist on his deathbed yet he believes that many pray to god before they die...

Generalized statements with little or no sample to back them up. Hasty generalization on his part.
I've seen people like that, many actually. But that doesn't make that a majority.

sledgehammer956
12-21-2002, 05:03 PM
I love how atheiests always seem to take advantage of christian holidays. They have no problem taking Christmas and Good Friday off, bunch of hippocrites.

Smackdown
12-21-2002, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by MartialArtist
I've seen people like that, many actually. But that doesn't make that a majority.

Exactly, It couldn't possibly be a majority with atheist/agnostic/nonreligion/secular numbering 850 million people.

How many have you seen MA?

ZachG_85
12-21-2002, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by sledgehammer956
I love how atheiests always seem to take advantage of christian holidays. They have no problem taking Christmas and Good Friday off, bunch of hippocrites.

What do you expect us to do? Show up at school/work when the building is shut?

Ever noticed that Xtian holidays are days when the building is closed?

Or if you work at a convenience store, guess who gets asked to work Xmas day or over Easter? That's right, the non-Xtians.

Pay attention to the world around you sometime and don't go saying such ignorant things.

Smackdown
12-21-2002, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by sledgehammer956
I love how atheiests always seem to take advantage of christian holidays. They have no problem taking Christmas and Good Friday off, bunch of hippocrites.

It isn't the atheists fault that the calander is Christianized. If i had my way it would be changed tomorrow to something more accurate.

Even with a non Christian Calender there would still be time off for people and I'm sure Christians wouldn't have any problems taking time off work either.

I wouldn't accuse you of being hypocrites because I know the calender would not be of your making, I'd know the days off would be result of whoever created the calender.

Smackdown
12-21-2002, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by ZachG_85
What do you expect us to do? Show up at school/work when the building is shut?

Ever noticed that Xtian holidays are days when the building is closed?

Or if you work at a convenience store, guess who gets asked to work Xmas day or over Easter? That's right, the non-Xtians.

Pay attention to the world around you sometime and don't go saying such ignorant things.

I was going to make that the second part of my post smart guy :D

Exactly, how the hell would we get into buildings when they were closed?

ZachG_85
12-21-2002, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Smackdown
I was going to make that the second part of my post smart guy :D

Exactly, how the hell would we get into buildings when they were closed?

I love how atheist-haters never have a damn clue as to what they're talking about :D

mntbikedude
12-21-2002, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by ZachG_85
I love how atheist-haters never have a damn clue as to what they're talking about :D

I know that you did'nt mean to label everyone that believes in God an atheist-hater ..........because that is certainly not me.....

As you know I love to talk about God, but I have nothing against anyone because of their beliefs in God, or lack of belief.

Fact is I think that most of the guys that post on the God threads are a pretty decent bunch, and I have respect for all your views....

Don't forget we are all just a bunch of guys who love to lift weights and are all just trying to make sense out of it all.

You know if we could just keep these discussions to learning what each of us believes instead of everyone feeling like they have to prove their point or disprove the other.......we can all learn alot from each other.......believer or nonbeliever.........Christian, Jew or Muslim .......all have something to give....

ZachG_85
12-21-2002, 08:40 PM
I did not label theists as atheist-haters, atheist-haters are anyone who views atheists in a negative light, period. If you believe in God, but have no problem with those that don't, then I have no problem with you.

But it's the people who say stupid things like "Why do all atheists pray to God on their deathbed" who make baby Jesus cry.

mntbikedude
12-21-2002, 08:43 PM
And while I am on my soap box Zach .......you have a very unique way of looking at things...........everyone could benefit from hearing how you feel .........I mean I for one would like to hear how you got to the point you are now of having all the moral values and yet have lost your belief in God.......I know that what you were taught just did'nt ring true.

It just seems like there must be more to the story.......and if you feel like telling us try telling us without the anger....

mntbikedude
12-21-2002, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by ZachG_85
I did not label theists as atheist-haters, atheist-haters are anyone who views atheists in a negative light, period. If you believe in God, but have no problem with those that don't, then I have no problem with you.

But it's the people who say stupid things like "Why do all atheists pray to God on their deathbed" who make baby Jesus cry.

Yes I am equally annoyed by stuff like that ......or the poll that said .......I believe in God and so should you? Or any one that post something that is trite and judgemental......

ZachG_85
12-21-2002, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by mntbikedude
And while I am on my soap box Zach .......you have a very unique way of looking at things...........everyone could benefit from hearing how you feel .........I mean I for one would like to hear how you got to the point you are now of having all the moral values and yet have lost your belief in God.......I know that what you were taught just did'nt ring true.

It just seems like there must be more to the story.......and if you feel like telling us try telling us without the anger....

Honestly there's no anger involved. Nothing happened horrible in my life that made me say "Man, there can't be a God for life to suck like this."

It was more like I would read books by Stephen Hawking, and I'd say "Wait, the Bible says THIS though..." After a while I realized that the scientific world explained SO much that could be proven, while the Bible could explain nothing.

As for my morals, it's a simple matter of superimposing my own feelings onto those of others. Take something that someone else enjoys but you think would be horrible. Isn't it hard to do that to them? It's because you think it's wrong because you know you don't like it.

mntbikedude
12-21-2002, 08:54 PM
well that kinda clears up the something horrible ......you have mentioned in some posts that you have had some hard times.....
But I believe you in what you have said.......

And actually I have read some of the stuff that bothered you about religion .......and well those things did'nt ring true to me either.......stuff like say this little prayer accepting Jesus and then suddenly your saved just did'nt work for me. And you could live a good life and all but not say the little prayer and its off to hell with ya.....

Btw your quotes are excellant and your Galileo quote should go for both believers and non

TranceNRG
12-21-2002, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by Dorian
Chill out man... People like to debate or argue alot and I guess i am one of those people.


Me too
I love debating as long as it's clean and doesn't end up in flaming by some flamer, who usually don't have enough knowledge about the topic.

mntbikedude
12-21-2002, 09:10 PM
One last thought Zach .......you know I believe the Bible is the word of God and all .......but it is'nt God .....and it does'nt answer all the questions that we have about such things as specifics regarding the creation ect.......but I will tell you what I have told my own 17 year old .

I have told my son to not be afraid to study all there is to know about Science and if there are things that seem to be a conflict ....well study it out ....both the religious side and scientific side and if they don't seem to add up......well its ok to put it on the shelf, without throwing away all your religious or scientific beliefs......

I feel sure that when we know all there is to know about religion and we know all there is to know about science than the two will fit together in perfect harmony.......God uses natural laws....not magic......

Its kinda line upon line........just try and keep and open mind Zach and keep studing ..........someday it will all come together and it will ring true ...........

ZachG_85
12-21-2002, 09:13 PM
See there's the rub. I didn't have a hard time battling the Bible against science. Science won, in my eyes. Science could be proven, science could be proven, while the bible required faith.

I am not a person of faith. I require proof.

The bible is the word of man, smart men.

mntbikedude
12-21-2002, 09:28 PM
Fair enough Zach

ZachG_85
12-21-2002, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by mntbikedude
Fair enough Zach

Everyone has their viewpoints, everyone has their reasons. I do not begrudge ANYONE for their beliefs, only when they try to press them onto me.

rleeson
12-21-2002, 10:11 PM
Honesty, morality and ethics are not unique to "Christians" or relegious people, although that is frequently forgotten. There are many that claim to be "Christian" to whom honesty ethics and morals are as alien as the 7th moon of Jupiter. If you were God who would be more worthy... a unbeliever that deals with the world with honesty and morality because it's the right/ethical thing to do... or a self professed Christian that lies, cheats and steals but goes to church on Sunday (there are quite and few and some are preaches)...

A persons deeds are a better indicator of his worth than his words, IMHO at least.

Just something to think about before you burn an athiest at a stake for not believing what you do...

Smackdown
12-21-2002, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by rleeson
Honesty, morality and ethics are not unique to "Christians" or relegious people, although that is frequently forgotten. There are many that claim to be "Christian" to whom honesty ethics and morals are as alien as the 7th moon of Jupiter. If you were God who would be more worthy... a unbeliever that deals with the world with honesty and morality because it's the right/ethical thing to do... or a self professed Christian that lies, cheats and steals but goes to church on Sunday (there are quite and few and some are preaches)...

A persons deeds are a better indicator of his worth than his words, IMHO at least.

Just something to think about before you burn an athiest at a stake for not believing what you do...

Good post rleeson. You and I still gotta chat about the universe, chaos theory, etc. I'll pm you.

Peace.

BPP
12-21-2002, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
Me too
I love debating as long as it's clean and doesn't end up in flaming by some flamer, who usually don't have enough knowledge about the topic.

bump

good post by leeson too :)

sledgehammer956
12-21-2002, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by ZachG_85
What do you expect us to do? Show up at school/work when the building is shut?

Ever noticed that Xtian holidays are days when the building is closed?

Or if you work at a convenience store, guess who gets asked to work Xmas day or over Easter? That's right, the non-Xtians.

Pay attention to the world around you sometime and don't go saying such ignorant things. LOL, and I guess you were broughtup that the meaning of Christmas was Santa Claus jumping down your chimney. I'll bet you never ask for anything for Christmas do you? It's people like you who have to say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" for fear of offending some atheist who has no problem of taking advantage of Christian holidays.

sledgehammer956
12-21-2002, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by ZachG_85
What do you expect us to do? Show up at school/work when the building is shut?

Ever noticed that Xtian holidays are days when the building is closed?

Or if you work at a convenience store, guess who gets asked to work Xmas day or over Easter? That's right, the non-Xtians.

Pay attention to the world around you sometime and don't go saying such ignorant things. Yeah, I'll bet you cry yourself to sleep knowing that you can't go to work or school on Christmas day. If you work in a convenience store than you should have no problem working since you don't believe in the birth of Christ.

BPP
12-21-2002, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by sledgehammer956
Yeah, I'll bet you cry yourself to sleep knowing that you can't go to work or school on Christmas day. If you work in a convenience store than you should have no problem working since you don't believe in the birth of Christ.

I'm sure if the shoe was on the other foot, and there was non-christian holidays on the calender for other religions, you'd throw a FIT about getting those days off, wouldn't you?
:rolleyes:

sledgehammer956
12-21-2002, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by bigpoppaproppy
I'm sure if the shoe was on the other foot, and there was non-christian holidays on the calender for other religions, you'd throw a FIT about getting those days off, wouldn't you?
:rolleyes: Nope, not at all.

Smackdown
12-21-2002, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by sledgehammer956
Yeah, I'll bet you cry yourself to sleep knowing that you can't go to work or school on Christmas day. If you work in a convenience store than you should have no problem working since you don't believe in the birth of Christ.

Actually if you knew anything about Christ and history you'd know that he was actually born closer to April. The calender has been altered and changed many times since his death. At times there were as many as thirteen months and as little as ten.

You may not know this but time was not kept very well in ancient times. They didn't understand the rotations of the earth around the sun among many other things. Just so you know smart guy.

BPP
12-21-2002, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by sledgehammer956
Nope, not at all.

ok
then whats the big deal with athiests liking having xmas off? or celebrating it?
in alot of America, xmas is used more as aholiday to cherish family and give presents rather than a religious holiday
same with easter etc

it doesnt have to be about religion...people who dont believe or just dont celebrate it that way use it with family and friends

not a big deal

sledgehammer956
12-21-2002, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by Smackdown
Actually if you knew anything about Christ and history you'd know that he was actually born closer to April. The calender has been altered and changed many times since his death. At times there were as many as thirteen months and as little as ten.

You may not know this but time was not kept very well in ancient times. They didn't understand the rotations of the earth around the sun among many other things. Just so you know smart guy. Well, you celebrate Christmas in April and I'll celebrate it on December 25th smart guy.

Smackdown
12-21-2002, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by sledgehammer956
Well, you celebrate Christmas in April and I'll celebrate it on December 25th smart guy.

I won't celebrate any of them, Christ was a good man from what I have learned. He was a martyr but I do not believe in all the myth that surrounds him.

But if i did celebrate his birth I would do so in April and you'd do so in December and guess what? I'd be closer to his actual birth than you.

It's okay though, Jesus still loves you sledgehammer.

Insane Clown
12-22-2002, 12:55 AM
LOL, and I guess you were broughtup that the meaning of Christmas was Santa Claus jumping down your chimney. I'll bet you never ask for anything for Christmas do you? A holiday during which time people exchange gifts in the winter was founded before Christianity. Christianity later adopted the celebration and applied the birth of Jesus to it (despite, as already mentioned, that Jesus was most likely NOT born during this time) and during the reformation, mainline Christianity actually thought of Christmas as a non-religious Holiday and attempted to replace Saint Nicholas with non-Christian figures.

So, really, Christmas isn't about the birth of Christ (which didn't happen in December). It's about presents.

Bizarre
12-22-2002, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
you see my friend...
this post shows how you think of this religion just like any other person in the west.
I'm muslim and my whole family is muslim. But my mom doesn't even put on a scarf. she prays and all the other stuff. I think she actually has the last say in anything. Even more than my dad.
So once again you stereotyped. No matter how many people you see like you can't judge the religion.

"never judge a religion by it's people judge it by its scripture"

but again, it's up to you to make your decision. If you think whoever told you that knew what he was talking about, then accept it.

I follow what he follows too and I've never even heard of such a thing.

so ya.
If all you know about women in islam and their rights, is covering up and walking behind their husbands then I don't really know what to say.

Trance, i hate to be a party-pooper as usual, but these are some 'women rights' in islam as it is in the quran and sharia:

1-a female have half the male's partition in legacy. (in chapter 4-verse 11)

2- 2 females' testimony = 1 male's testimony (!!) (in chapter 2- verse 282)

3-the infamous viel and clothing restrictions (in chapter 24- verse 31)

4- the right given to males to marry 4 women + slaves (in chapter 4 - verse3)

5- Devorce is in the man's hand only and can be done by just saying a word .

6- Its ok for a man to beat his wife (chapter 4- verse 34)

7- men are a higher grade than women (chapter 4- verse 34)

8- Women must stay in thier homes and not go out unless for a serious need.." stay in your homes and do not adorn yourselves the pre-islamic adornship.." (chapter 33 verse 33)

9-


wow man look at the above list all from your quran i didnt creat anything by myself..and you have the nerve to talk about women rights in islam ???

expected answer from trance :

"but my family do not live like that and my mother doesnt even wear a scarf etc etc..."

dude, dude...

i dont care about what you and your family live like, mine is like that too and alot of muslims in those "secular-islamic" countrries (like mine) are like that, BUT this is not the point, mym point is, do you admit the above orders of allah or not??

please answer these questions in order with yes or no trance:


1-Do you (you and your family) deny the above orders of allah in quran? (yes/no)

2-are you ASHAMED of the existence of the above orders that goes against the simplist human rights? (yes/no)

3-if yes, do you still consider yourself a muslim while rejecting some of allah's orders? (yes/no)

4-if yes, could you do this if you and your family were still in your homeland iran (as you mentioned before), one of the countries that apply allah's orders and punish those who dare to cross his red lines ? (yes/no)

5-if yes, have fun getting slashed.


dont get me wrong trance buddy, i'd love to see all muslims alter islam alittle and make it more suitable for a human the way you and your family and some muslims in secular, and secular-islamic countries do, wow..the world would have been a much better place...but sadly, most muslims think that allah's orders goes on all times and shall not be altered.

I was like you, with that secular-islamic mind you have before i converted out of islam an official infidel, after i realized that you can not take from your allah what suits your mood and reject what does not and still consider yourself a muuslim while rejecting allah's orders..you either take it all, or leave it all...deal with it, you cant alter your allah's orders or you'll be a disobyant...like it or not this is it, and dont tell me crap like " you are close minded you cant tell me you cant be a muslim if you do that and dont do that" because ITS NOT ME WHO FUKKING SUGGEST THIS buddy, its quran, and your islamic religion heads, not me,

and let me quote what you said:

"dont judge a religion by its people, but by its scripture"

you asked for it, here i did give you some examples of the "scripture"...and yet..i dont know... you deny them and still consider yoursef a "full" muslim, and actually you'r not if you reject your allah's orders, you'r disobyant ..and again its not me who suggest this but its islam itself.

by the way! as we'r talking about the subject of disobyance, do you know what the word "islam" means in arabic? its surrender...you surrender yourself to your allah and obey his orders.

no worries though buddy! as long as you'r not an official evil kafir like me, im sure you can still make it to allah's paradise and fukk around with those virgins ;)... yummy!! you lucky devil you!


peace.


-Bizarre "the critic you love to hate" .

TranceNRG
12-22-2002, 02:12 AM
Hey Bizzare...
It's 1:06 am, so I'm not gonna reply now...
but it seems that you won't leave me alone :D

anywayz, listen man... I never said anything bad about you and what you believe in. If you truly believe in what you do believe, you'd be calm and happy about it, instead of making a huge fuss about it. If you believe about what you believe in, you'd stick with in without thinking how anyone thinks or acts towards what you think.

To be honest, i didn't even bother finish reading your posts. Your posts are just full of blind hatred and I need my sleep.
I will answer later if anyone else is interested. I don't know what to tell you because me and you already had a talk but nothing seems to be changed.

But hey... if you happy with who are, then I'm happy for you.
It's funny none of my topics have ever been towards you or what you believe in. but it seems as soon as you post something it some hateful comments towards what I believe in. and NO I don't believe in what you listed.

You can go on and think however you want, I couldn't really careless what some other person thinks of my faith.

But anywayz, I really hope you are a happy man inside and happy with the decisions you make in your life.

whenever I get time I'll read your posts fully.

thank you and take care

TranceNRG
12-22-2002, 02:24 AM
hey man...
I know I should go to sleep, but since I like you so much ;)

read these

http://www.irf.net/womens_right_in_islam_I.zip

http://www.irf.net/womens_right_in_islam_II.zip


I hope this helps a bit
:)

take care man

Bizarre
12-22-2002, 02:27 AM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
Hey Bizzare...
It's 1:06 am, so I'm not gonna reply now...
but it seems that you won't leave me alone :D

anywayz, listen man... I never said anything bad about you and what you believe in. If you truly believe in what you do believe, you'd be calm and happy about it, instead of making a huge fuss about it. If you believe about what you believe in, you'd stick with in without thinking how anyone thinks or acts towards what you think.

To be honest, i didn't even bother finish reading your posts. Your posts are just full of blind hatred and I need my sleep.
I will answer later if anyone else is interested. I don't know what to tell you because me and you already had a talk but nothing seems to be changed.

But hey... if you happy with who are, then I'm happy for you.
It's funny none of my topics have ever been towards you or what you believe in. but it seems as soon as you post something it some hateful comments towards what I believe in. and NO I don't believe in what you listed.

You can go on and think however you want, I couldn't really careless what some other person thinks of my faith.

But anywayz, I really hope you are a happy man inside and happy with the decisions you make in your life.

whenever I get time I'll read your posts fully.

thank you and take care

well no offence to you my friend, but isnt what you said is an escape from the evidences i wrote from Quran itself? you avoid the debate on my subjects and i understand from this that you cant deny a word from what i said ...fine.

you said: " To be honest, i didn't even bother finish reading your posts. Your posts are just full of blind hatred and I need my sleep.

my hatred to your faith and my ex faith is something that you shouldnt care about as long as my posts like the above does NOT go out of well-based and evidence-supported debates...thats why i listed evidences from your book to avoid beeing accused of just blind hatred .

you said:
But hey... if you happy with who are, then I'm happy for you.
It's funny none of my topics have ever been towards you or what you believe in. but it seems as soon as you post something it some hateful comments towards what I believe in.

i didnt offend you, expect if you find commenting on your quran offending.


you said:
and NO I don't believe in what you listed.

so, um..you dont believe in verses from quran i mentioned?



you said:
You can go on and think however you want, I couldn't really careless what some other person thinks of my faith.

thats your right, but I also have the right to critique your faith as long as i keep it clean and evidence-based, and i guess i didnt go out of this and never went around just spewing disses on your religion...am i wrong?



peace.

Bizarre
12-22-2002, 02:40 AM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
hey man...
I know I should go to sleep, but since I like you so much ;)

read these

http://www.irf.net/womens_right_in_islam_I.zip

http://www.irf.net/womens_right_in_islam_II.zip


I hope this helps a bit
:)

take care man


I listed verses from the Quran that speak for themselves about allah's orders about women in islam..not an article that says usless stuff... a quick look into the "real world" and the "facts" in islamic countries speak for themselves about women situation in islam...



again trrance:



your articles didnt tell me and explain why:

1-a female have half the male's partition in legacy. (in chapter 4-verse 11)

2- 2 females' testimony = 1 male's testimony (!!) (in chapter 2- verse 282)

3-the infamous viel and clothing restrictions (in chapter 24- verse 31)

4- the right given to males to marry 4 women + slaves (in chapter 4 - verse3)

5- Devorce is in the man's hand only and can be done by just saying a word .

6- Its ok for a man to beat his wife (chapter 4- verse 34)

7- men are a higher grade than women (chapter 4- verse 34)

8- Women must stay in thier homes and not go out unless for a serious need.." stay in your homes and do not adorn yourselves the pre-islamic adornship.." (chapter 33 verse 33)



thanks.

btw trance..how old are you? just curious.

ZachG_85
12-22-2002, 07:41 AM
Originally posted by sledgehammer956
Yeah, I'll bet you cry yourself to sleep knowing that you can't go to work or school on Christmas day. If you work in a convenience store than you should have no problem working since you don't believe in the birth of Christ.

You hypocrite ass. I guaran-damn-tee that if your workplace was closed over all 8 days of Chanukah you wouldn't object at all.

As for me, I don't say happy Holidays. I say happy/merry whatever-holiday-is-near to people. Be it Xmas, Easter, Chanukah, Yom Kippur, Ramadan, whatever. I have no problems with others and their holidays.

As for my own celebrations, I'm in a Xtian family. I kept telling everyone I really didn't want anything, but no one will listen. My mother told me if she didn't give me one last normal Xmas, she wouldn't know what to do with herself.

I, unlike others, care about others and don't try and get them to conform to my beliefs.

And of course free stuff is cool. Sort of like the Jewish AND Xtian kid. He gets presents and days off constantly. Which does he REALLY believe? Does it matter? Would you try and stop your family from having you celebrate both?

Smackdown
12-22-2002, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by Insane Clown
A holiday during which time people exchange gifts in the winter was founded before Christianity. Christianity later adopted the celebration and applied the birth of Jesus to it (despite, as already mentioned, that Jesus was most likely NOT born during this time) and during the reformation, mainline Christianity actually thought of Christmas as a non-religious Holiday and attempted to replace Saint Nicholas with non-Christian figures.

So, really, Christmas isn't about the birth of Christ (which didn't happen in December). It's about presents.

You're right Insane Clown, Christianity was a very ecclectic religion. It would adopt practices of pagans in order to ease the pagan populations into conversion. There are countless instances of this. i believe the traditional Christmas celebrations (tree, holly, etc)come from northern European countries, correct me if i am wrong.

mntbikedude
12-22-2002, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by ZachG_85
You hypocrite ass. I guaran-damn-tee that if your workplace was closed over all 8 days of Chanukah you wouldn't object at all.

As for me, I don't say happy Holidays. I say happy/merry whatever-holiday-is-near to people. Be it Xmas, Easter, Chanukah, Yom Kippur, Ramadan, whatever. I have no problems with others and their holidays.

As for my own celebrations, I'm in a Xtian family. I kept telling everyone I really didn't want anything, but no one will listen. My mother told me if she didn't give me one last normal Xmas, she wouldn't know what to do with herself.

I, unlike others, care about others and don't try and get them to conform to my beliefs.

And of course free stuff is cool. Sort of like the Jewish AND Xtian kid. He gets presents and days off constantly. Which does he REALLY believe? Does it matter? Would you try and stop your family from having you celebrate both?

Rock on

MartialArtist
12-22-2002, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Smackdown
Actually if you knew anything about Christ and history you'd know that he was actually born closer to April. The calender has been altered and changed many times since his death. At times there were as many as thirteen months and as little as ten.

You may not know this but time was not kept very well in ancient times. They didn't understand the rotations of the earth around the sun among many other things. Just so you know smart guy.
The reason it was changed to December is to get more people to convert. The holiday on December was a Pagan holiday. That's where the tree and the presents come from. But if Christmas moved to December, they would still get to keep some of their December traditions alive, making the switch easier.

MartialArtist
12-22-2002, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Insane Clown
A holiday during which time people exchange gifts in the winter was founded before Christianity. Christianity later adopted the celebration and applied the birth of Jesus to it (despite, as already mentioned, that Jesus was most likely NOT born during this time) and during the reformation, mainline Christianity actually thought of Christmas as a non-religious Holiday and attempted to replace Saint Nicholas with non-Christian figures.

So, really, Christmas isn't about the birth of Christ (which didn't happen in December). It's about presents.
I disagree. Christmas, is not about presents, commercialism, or materialism although many people look at it that way.

ZachG_85
12-22-2002, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by MartialArtist
The reason it was changed to December is to get more people to convert. The holiday on December was a Pagan holiday. That's where the tree and the presents come from. But if Christmas moved to December, they would still get to keep some of their December traditions alive, making the switch easier.

Yet more proof that the entire Xtian religion is mostly a mishmosh of other religions.

Take the teachings and lessons as you will, but leave the rest.

Insane Clown
12-22-2002, 01:30 PM
I disagree. Christmas, is not about presents, commercialism, or materialism although many people look at it that way. The holiday was started as one in which to exchange presents before Christianity even existed. The 'birth of Christ' stuff was all added after the holiday was already made. Even if it was done to convert people (the Pagans who were celebrating, and enjoying themselves, before Christians got involved) than it would be about presents and conversion. It still isn't really about Christ's birthday, or else why would mainline Christianity try and remove the holiday from their religion during the Reformation? They didn't try to end the holiday itself, just end the relationship to Christianity that it had. (Obviously, that failed.)

I never said it was about commercialism or even materialism (it all depends on what you think a present is), but it was started as a time to exchange presents, that was the whole point of the original holiday. All the other stuff has been added by Christians who were jealous of all the fun Pagans were having and PR people at Coca-Cola...

ugotme
12-22-2002, 02:54 PM
You can base your arguments for or against Christianity on two different planes. You can address human institutional responses to the miracles of Christ (the date of his birth, the date of Christmas, etc) or you can address the core message of Christ and Christianity. So far all I've heard are people discounting Christ's teachings because Christmas isn't the true birthday of Christ or some other imperfection in the institutionalized faith.

You cannot expect perfection from humans, and to discount the core message of Christ and Christianity because of human shortcomings makes no sense. Every rational/religious faith will have imperfections... Atheists, Christians, Muslims, etc. These are all human institutions. While human civilization is great it is not free of shortcoming. Why do you think many people yearn for a higher power that personifies the perfection that we do not possess.

Sitting on the sidelines and arguing spitup points is easy to do. It's a lot harder to approach a subject with a true yearning to find truth. But until you can do that your arguments hold no weight.

ZachG_85
12-22-2002, 03:00 PM
I don't argue his teachings.

Whether or not he was the son of God has no impact on the fact that he said some damn good stuff. But you in no way HAVE to believe in God to have morals.

ugotme
12-22-2002, 03:28 PM
Agreed.

RedheadHardBody
12-22-2002, 03:50 PM
Do they celebrate Christmas? If they don't believe in God and or Jesus. Then how could they celebrate Christmas since we celebrate the birth of Jesus.

sledgehammer956
12-22-2002, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by ZachG_85
You hypocrite ass. I guaran-damn-tee that if your workplace was closed over all 8 days of Chanukah you wouldn't object at all.

As for me, I don't say happy Holidays. I say happy/merry whatever-holiday-is-near to people. Be it Xmas, Easter, Chanukah, Yom Kippur, Ramadan, whatever. I have no problems with others and their holidays.

As for my own celebrations, I'm in a Xtian family. I kept telling everyone I really didn't want anything, but no one will listen. My mother told me if she didn't give me one last normal Xmas, she wouldn't know what to do with herself.

I, unlike others, care about others and don't try and get them to conform to my beliefs.

And of course free stuff is cool. Sort of like the Jewish AND Xtian kid. He gets presents and days off constantly. Which does he REALLY believe? Does it matter? Would you try and stop your family from having you celebrate both? I'm not Jewish but it sure is funny how Jewish run department stores, Kohl's for one, cash in on the Christmas holiday. You tell me ONE Jewish run business that closes for 8 days to celebrate Chanukah.

mntbikedude
12-22-2002, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by ZachG_85
I don't argue his teachings.

Whether or not he was the son of God has no impact on the fact that he said some damn good stuff. But you in no way HAVE to believe in God to have morals.

I understand how you are able to just be kind to others, without believing in God........but a while back you were really disgusted about an obcene picture.......and I just wondered what guildes you in stuff like that ........this is a sincere question and not a confrontation.

What I am saying is what guildes you in moral situations......you seem to have high standards.......

rleeson
12-22-2002, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by RedheadHardBody
Do they celebrate Christmas? If they don't believe in God and or Jesus. Then how could they celebrate Christmas since we celebrate the birth of Jesus.

It happens that Christmas comes within a few days of the winter solstice that's not an accident... It may once have been on the same day but calendar drift and reformation of the calendar seperated the two over time.

What's celebrated is the "returning of the sun."
After the solstice (the short day of the year) the days start to get longer... As good a reason as any for a folk festaval...

mntbikedude
12-22-2002, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by RedheadHardBody
Do they celebrate Christmas? If they don't believe in God and or Jesus. Then how could they celebrate Christmas since we celebrate the birth of Jesus.

I think that would be easy since some of us that do believe in Jesus Christ , seem to forget that ourselves.......

ZachG_85
12-22-2002, 05:10 PM
Xmas was initially a pagan celebration and a time to exchange gifts.

As an atheist I feel free to celebrate it as such.

BTW, did anyone catch Conan last Tuesday? He was showing Xmas card to him and showed one from the Atheists: blank white, and on the inside it said "Happy Wednesday" :D

TranceNRG
12-22-2002, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by Bizarre
I listed verses from the Quran that speak for themselves about allah's orders about women in islam..not an article that says usless stuff... a quick look into the "real world" and the "facts" in islamic countries speak for themselves about women situation in islam...



again trrance:



your articles didnt tell me and explain why:

1-a female have half the male's partition in legacy. (in chapter 4-verse 11)

2- 2 females' testimony = 1 male's testimony (!!) (in chapter 2- verse 282)

3-the infamous viel and clothing restrictions (in chapter 24- verse 31)

4- the right given to males to marry 4 women + slaves (in chapter 4 - verse3)

5- Devorce is in the man's hand only and can be done by just saying a word .

6- Its ok for a man to beat his wife (chapter 4- verse 34)

7- men are a higher grade than women (chapter 4- verse 34)

8- Women must stay in thier homes and not go out unless for a serious need.." stay in your homes and do not adorn yourselves the pre-islamic adornship.." (chapter 33 verse 33)



thanks.

btw trance..how old are you? just curious.


Hey Bizzare...
what's up man
ok... I'll read those verses and I'll do a search (research) about them.
This could take a while, but I'll tell you what I find when I find it.

It's good that there are people like you around, they make me go learn more and become stronger in what I believe.

thank dude.
I'll get back to you soon

MartialArtist
12-22-2002, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by ZachG_85
Yet more proof that the entire Xtian religion is mostly a mishmosh of other religions.

Take the teachings and lessons as you will, but leave the rest.
Or how about you take the traditions that were mentioned in the Bible? Evangelicism perhaps :rolleyes:

ZachG_85
12-22-2002, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by MartialArtist
Or how about you take the traditions that were mentioned in the Bible? Evangelicism perhaps :rolleyes:

Jesus Christ is Aramaic and some other language for "Anointed Savior." Period.

Smackdown
12-22-2002, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by mntbikedude
I understand how you are able to just be kind to others, without believing in God........but a while back you were really disgusted about an obcene picture.......and I just wondered what guildes you in stuff like that ........this is a sincere question and not a confrontation.

What I am saying is what guildes you in moral situations......you seem to have high standards.......

I do not know about Zach but I personally am guided because i have an understanding of universal ethical principles and I work all the time to practice what I know about them. Always questioning myself as to what Justice is, understanding the value of human life, always trying to be a Just and Honest person, etc. Understanding what Good is, trying to be the best person I can be in life even though there is no reward. I expect no reward in the end but I will still do the best that I can in life. It is almost intrinsic in me. I do not really believe in innate ideas so I believe it is learned behaviour combined with genetic predisposition. I think however that is Nature and Nurture at work as I believe these two account for everything in the human universe, genetics and surroundings.

I wouldn't call myself a great person but I am not a bad person either, I have never commited a crime, I help people whenever they are in need. I am for responsibility and fair play at all times, I abide by just laws and of course will dispute unjust laws.

How about you Zach? What guides your decisions?

ZachG_85
12-22-2002, 07:21 PM
As I've frequently said, superimposing my own feelings onto others.

I can pretty easily guage what is wrong by whether or not I'd like to have it done to myself.

Smackdown
12-22-2002, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by ZachG_85
Jesus Christ is Aramaic and some other language for "Anointed Savior." Period.

Christos comes from Greek I believe. "the Annointed one" is what Christ means. Christ comes from Christos. I'm getting this from a humanities textbook.

Smackdown
12-22-2002, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by ZachG_85
As I've frequently said, superimposing my own feelings onto others.

I can pretty easily guage what is wrong by whether or not I'd like to have it done to myself.

ahh there is that too, in face I use that quite often. I put myself in others' shoes and think about what it would be like to have something done to me. If I do not like the feeling then I will not do the behaviour to another person.

BPP
12-22-2002, 07:28 PM
smackdown-
I must say I like your ideas. Seem well thought-out, and to be very good ideas.

ZachG_85
12-22-2002, 07:32 PM
Additionally there is a serious innate knowledge of what is right and wrong. Period. Everyone has it from birth, and it will remain unless beaten out of you.

Smackdown
12-22-2002, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by bigpoppaproppy
smackdown-
I must say I like your ideas. Seem well thought-out, and to be very good ideas.

Thank you, I'm 21 though and have had time to think this all out :D Zach on the other hand is 17 I believe so I'm very impressed.

I don't even want to think about what I was like at 17 ;)
nah I was still pretty good but it took events to change me of course.

Smackdown
12-22-2002, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by ZachG_85
Additionally there is a serious innate knowledge of what is right and wrong. Period. Everyone has it from birth, and it will remain unless beaten out of you.

Innate knowledge of right and wrong is a debated topic. Many believe that there are innate ideas that come from a superior being, etc. Inborn ideas without divine intervention would perplex me, how could one have ideas from birth without experience, without a god inplanting them, and with only genes to account for? But many believe that understanding right and wrong comes from genetic predispositions acted upon of course by the surrounding environment. Certain environmental cues while young trigger things in the brain and set neural pathways for life.

Highly debated topic, a very interesting one at that.

ZachG_85
12-22-2002, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by Smackdown
Innate knowledge of right and wrong is a debated topic. Many believe that there are innate ideas that come from a superior being, etc. But many believe that understanding right and wrong comes from genetic predispositions acted upon of course by the surrounding environment. Certain environmental cues while young trigger things in the brain and set neural pathways for life.

Highly debated topic, a very interesting one at that.

If it were truly from a higher being, then why do all religions have the same core beliefs about behaviour? Even the atheistic ones?

Smackdown
12-22-2002, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by ZachG_85
If it were truly from a higher being, then why do all religions have the same core beliefs about behaviour? Even the atheistic ones?

That is the million dollar question Zach :D Who knows why we understand what Good is, Plato tried to explain it and so have many others ever since. What makes a good day Good? I believe it is because we have Bad days to compare them too.

We know Justice because we also know Injustice. We know Good because we know Bad.

ZachG_85
12-22-2002, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by Smackdown
That is the million dollar question Zach :D Who knows why we understand what Good is, Plato tried to explain it and so have many others ever since. What makes a good day Good? I believe it is because we have Bad days to compare them too.

We know Justice because we also know Injustice. We know Good because we know Bad.

Exactly. But I don't want to debate it much.

"Religion stops a thinking mind"

Smackdown
12-22-2002, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by ZachG_85
Exactly. But I don't want to debate it much.

"Religion stops a thinking mind"

Oh I'm not debating, I'm wondering myself. I believe we know good because we know bad but what if there was a realm of Ideas like Plato proposed?

At least you are thinking and so are many others.

Thinking is a Good thing ;)

mntbikedude
12-22-2002, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by Smackdown
That is the million dollar question Zach :D Who knows why we understand what Good is, Plato tried to explain it and so have many others ever since. What makes a good day Good? I believe it is because we have Bad days to compare them too.

We know Justice because we also know Injustice. We know Good because we know Bad.

Yes Exactly

ZachG_85
12-22-2002, 07:46 PM
Good is a purely subjective thing, I'll admit, but it's innate all the same.

I'm way too drained and in a ridiculously bad mood to get into it deeply though, some other time :D

Smackdown
12-22-2002, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by ZachG_85
Good is a purely subjective thing, I'll admit, but it's innate all the same.

I'm way too drained and in a ridiculously bad mood to get into it deeply though, some other time :D

If you consider Innate as genetic then yes I would see it as innate but many see innate as implanted by something other than human. A god is where many believe these Innate ideas come from.

Like i said I think all religions have the same ideas of Good and Bad because these religions all stem from people who have experienced both good and bad things. They know injustice, pain, etc Because they know the exact opposite conditions ie. justice, pleasure, etc.

Smackdown
12-22-2002, 10:14 PM
Hey Zach here are the definitions of Innate I believe both you and I are talking about. I think you are speaking about definition number 1

1. present from birth: relating to qualities that a person or animal is born with

Whereas I am referring to the philosophical definition that I have recently learned in Philosophy classes:

2. philosophy coming from the mind: coming directly from the mind rather than being acquired by experience or from external sources an innate sense of justice


You see, these are both quite different. I agree with you then if you are speaking of innate as in the first definition, I agree that much (but not all) of our understanding of Good comes from the genes we were born with.

In philosophical terms though I would not agree, Innate in definition number two really has to do with and is often an argument for a deity. A deity, or a realm of ideals would be responsible for these innate ideas of Good which I do not really believe to be the Case.
If you are arguing innate definition 2 then I do not agree with you, but if you are arguing definition 1 then I partially agree with you Because I do not believe knowing the Good comes exclusively from genetics but from environment as well.

Peace.

Bizarre
12-23-2002, 01:39 AM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
Hey Bizzare...
what's up man


It's good that there are people like you around, they make me go learn more and become stronger in what I believe.

thank dude.


lol..is the more i critique quran i make you stronger in your believe? if this is the case i can give you a garantee-ticket to paradise if you want :D


anyways...i wanted to know something buddy...can you read/speak alittle arabic? because i want to give you some great reading material but i really cant be bothered to translate it to english...

see you..

TranceNRG
12-23-2002, 01:49 AM
Originally posted by Bizarre
lol..is the more i critique quran i make you stronger in your believe? if this is the case i can give you a garantee-ticket to paradise if you want :D


anyways...i wanted to know something buddy...can you read/speak alittle arabic? because i want to give you some great reading material but i really cant be bothered to translate it to english...

see you..

that's true...
the more you do critique the more I get to read and research and the more I get stronger. you see... people think differently, that's why you are you and I am me. :)

so ya, please find out more problems, I'd love to find out, but it could take a while considering school and all.


By the way, I'm not an Arab. I'm persian, so I can read but I can't understand Arabic. Words have different meanings.
sorry man.


but if you have interesting stuff please post them up.

Thanks
take care for now

mntbikedude
12-23-2002, 06:55 AM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
that's true...
the more you do critique the more I get to read and research and the more I get stronger. you see... people think differently, that's why you are you and I am me. :)

so ya, please find out more problems, I'd love to find out, but it could take a while considering school and all.


By the way, I'm not an Arab. I'm persian, so I can read but I can't understand Arabic. Words have different meanings.
sorry man.


but if you have interesting stuff please post them up.

Thanks
take care for now

Exactly .....with any religion there are things that taken alone
can be desturbing. There are all kinds of stories in the old testament , that are that way.. I also understand that because as a Mormon I am constantly having stuff shoved in my face, with the attitude of..... see this proves your church is'nt true.

In fact there are a lot of organizations whose only purpose is to destroy my faith. Last christmas by brother who had lost the faith sent me this anti-mormon pamplet. No letter or xmas card just this. It said read it if you dare.....ooooooh ....well I not only read it I let my children read it . We all had a good laugh.

Fact is as a father I want my children to have their faith tested......fact is only if you are unafraid of truth can you find it.

What I am saying Trance is these are good questions and you should study it out. But look at the whole picture, take things in context with the times they were written in and don't throw away all the strength and peace your religion has brought you because of some things you can't exsplain.

There is no religion that has all the answers and some questions we are just going to have to wait an ask God in person.

But in the mean time we don't throw it all out over a few questions without answers.......line upon line ....precept on precept , this is how He teaches

ZachG_85
12-23-2002, 08:37 AM
And yes, Smackdown, I did mean the genetic definition.

Every creature has some sense of right and wrong. Otherwise why would animals protect their young over themselves? I doubt the more simple animals understand the concept of "If I don't protect my cubs, they will not be able to carry on my legacy in future generations."

BPP
12-23-2002, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by ZachG_85
And yes, Smackdown, I did mean the genetic definition.

Every creature has some sense of right and wrong. Otherwise why would animals protect their young over themselves? I doubt the more simple animals understand the concept of "If I don't protect my cubs, they will not be able to carry on my legacy in future generations."


good point bro

you know, I find deeper conversations on here than I did all semester in that damn required Theology course. I wish THAT was free...

ZachG_85
12-23-2002, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by bigpoppaproppy
good point bro

you know, I find deeper conversations on here than I did all semester in that damn required Theology course. I wish THAT was free...

Hehe. Well there's a few of us out here that are quite deep.

And hey, I've never taken any philosophy or theology courses either.

BPP
12-23-2002, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by ZachG_85
Hehe. Well there's a few of us out here that are quite deep.

And hey, I've never taken any philosophy or theology courses either.

true

i had to, damn gen ed requirements :(
thats another reason why I can't wait to go to purdue next year, no more required theology and such

TranceNRG
12-23-2002, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by mntbikedude
Exactly .....with any religion there are things that taken alone
can be desturbing. There are all kinds of stories in the old testament , that are that way.. I also understand that because as a Mormon I am constantly having stuff shoved in my face, with the attitude of..... see this proves your church is'nt true.

In fact there are a lot of organizations whose only purpose is to destroy my faith. Last christmas by brother who had lost the faith sent me this anti-mormon pamplet. No letter or xmas card just this. It said read it if you dare.....ooooooh ....well I not only read it I let my children read it . We all had a good laugh.

Fact is as a father I want my children to have their faith tested......fact is only if you are unafraid of truth can you find it.

What I am saying Trance is these are good questions and you should study it out. But look at the whole picture, take things in context with the times they were written in and don't throw away all the strength and peace your religion has brought you because of some things you can't exsplain.

There is no religion that has all the answers and some questions we are just going to have to wait an ask God in person.

But in the mean time we don't throw it all out over a few questions without answers.......line upon line ....precept on precept , this is how He teaches


thanks man...
I know...
I don't let little stuff like that bug me at all. I just read them, research about them and I do find the answer. Of course, the answers might not satisfy someone else. But that's always the case. People have different views. If subjective issues had right or wrong then everyone had to think the exact same way.

I don't really understand why Bizarre is trying so hard. But that's ok. as i said I like it and it's better for me. Maybe he will be "my ticket to paradise"
lol

anywayz, thanks alot for your support.
take care for now

mntbikedude
12-23-2002, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by TranceNRG
thanks man...
I know...
I don't let little stuff like that bug me at all. I just read them, research about them and I do find the answer. Of course, the answers might not satisfy someone else. But that's always the case. People have different views. If subjective issues had right or wrong then everyone had to think the exact same way.

I don't really understand why Bizarre is trying so hard. But that's ok. as i said I like it and it's better for me. Maybe he will be "my ticket to paradise"
lol

anywayz, thanks alot for your support.
take care for now

Trance its interesting but it seems that people that have lost their faith are the most zealous in trying to get others to lose theres, I think it kind of validates their own decision....... those that attack my church are usually ex members........

They always say its because they are so caring , but it is always with a mean spirit and it always includes a heavy use of sarcasm about things that you may hold sacred.........

What I can't understand is if they don't believe anymore why can't they get just leave it alone and get on with life without dragging others down with them......They never seem happy and get angry realy easily. I am surprized that someone has'nt started doing the same to me. But if they do I am not even going to waste my time answering .......because I've heard it all before........bottom line we are all sons of God, we may view him in different ways. The world could be so awesome if we were all just helping each other out and encourageing each other to do our best in whatever we believe..........instead of trying so very hard to destroy the very things that could heal our world.......

ZachG_85
12-23-2002, 07:11 PM
Usually those that leave the church did so because something terrible happened to them.

They lost faith but didn't stop believing, holding an animosity for God and whatnot, and are trying to rally others against him as well. Sort of like those that said "If 9-11 could happen, how can God exist?" They let emotions tear them away from God, which is irresponsible, annoying, and gives -real- atheists a bad name :D

BPP
12-23-2002, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by ZachG_85
Usually those that leave the church did so because something terrible happened to them.

They let emotions tear them away from God, which is irresponsible, annoying, and gives -real- atheists a bad name :D


LOL
damn those athiest wannabe's
;)

ZachG_85
12-23-2002, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by bigpoppaproppy
LOL
damn those athiest wannabe's
;)

They piss me off, cause they make me look bad.

"Oh you're an atheist? What happened that was so terrible?"

"..."

mntbikedude
12-23-2002, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by ZachG_85
Usually those that leave the church did so because something terrible happened to them.

They lost faith but didn't stop believing, holding an animosity for God and whatnot, and are trying to rally others against him as well. Sort of like those that said "If 9-11 could happen, how can God exist?" They let emotions tear them away from God, which is irresponsible, annoying, and gives -real- atheists a bad name :D

I don't know why that made me laugh but it did....:D

mntbikedude
12-23-2002, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by ZachG_85
They piss me off, cause they make me look bad.

"Oh you're an atheist? What happened that was so terrible?"

"..."

Excuuseeee Meeeeee.......but Zach I have read on more than one occasion...... where you were in a major fight and you said something like, "dude you have no idea the hell I've been thru." wish I coulda found a post to give as an example ....but is it true that you had some rough times ......and I understand that might not have had anything to do with your religious beliefs.....but am I wrong that you gave the impression that you had some rough times? ( I might add that it never sounded whiny, )

Dont quote me on this I want to delete it, if I am totally up in the night ......on this one........

ZachG_85
12-23-2002, 08:08 PM
Oh I'll admit I've been to hell and back in my short time, but at no point did God ever come into my mind during it.

My decisions to go with atheism were not out of spite by any means. I sincerely wish I believed in God, it seems like such a cool thing to believe in.

mntbikedude
12-23-2002, 08:11 PM
Ok I see that , and come to think about it , it seems that you never really attack the idea of a belief in God .......just people that make judgements about you because of your beliefs.....did I get that right?

Dorian
12-23-2002, 08:14 PM
I think most who has left the church like myself has done so due to a revelation.
I saw things that just wasn't right, I felt inside the truth was not in a bible or a preachers stand or a song. I felt the truth was in me.
I realized all my life has been spent either teaching , singing and playing or working for God. I have realized that it all was for nothing. I am not trying to convince anyone if there isn't or is a God. In my case I could care less. I have realized life is exactly what you put into it. If you go through life thinking n miracles then maybe one will happen, if you go through life beleiving in success it will happen. God didn't do it, I did.
I have programmed my mind to accept all that will take me to where i want to be. It is now set up to attract all those succesful things.
Same with christians they are set so their minds beleive that miracles will happen and someday God will take them home. They are set to beleive that Jesus Died for their sins.
These are all th way our mind is programmed. We enter with no programming except the basic esentials, we go to school for more input. We hand the keyboard to our ministers and teachers and freinds and they all key in the input we now have. This is why we beleive what we do. Some of us may have been caught in a time were we needed something to happen or we lost someone and it just so happeneed someone was preaching to us. This is a time when we are vulnerable and weak.
This is why in church for an altar call they play certain music and get you feeling bad and sad, so you will come forward for it. it's all called playing on emotions. so there are many reasons why people have these different beleifs and it is mostly due to these factors.

ZachG_85
12-23-2002, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by mntbikedude
Ok I see that , and come to think about it , it seems that you never really attack the idea of a belief in God .......just people that make judgements about you because of your beliefs.....did I get that right?

Sounds aboot right.

If you're cool with me, I'm cool with you. That's my motto in every aspect of life.