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Anssi Manninen
04-27-2006, 03:25 AM
BioQuest’s forthcoming Myozene is scientifically designed to take the guesswork out of optimal post-exercise nutrition. In fact, I feel that Myozene is the most advanced product of its kind ever formulated. This is a very important development because proper post-exercise nutrition is absolutely critical for rapid recovery and maximal muscular gains. For a detailed review, see the August issue of Muscular Development.

Joel
04-27-2006, 03:49 AM
Give us more info, dont make us buy a magazine...

Stonecoldtruth
04-27-2006, 04:01 AM
Give us more info, dont make us buy a magazine...

I'm more worried about the fact that he said August's issue of the magazine. I know issues are actually dated a month in advance, but AUGUST? I'm hoping you mean 05.. heh.

Time to bust out some google skills.

RobW
04-27-2006, 04:13 AM
I'm more worried about the fact that he said August's issue of the magazine. I know issues are actually dated a month in advance, but AUGUST? I'm hoping you mean 05.. heh.

Time to bust out some google skills.

MD is more like 3 months ahead, so it should be on news stand in May...

Stonecoldtruth
04-27-2006, 04:16 AM
MD is more like 3 months ahead, so it should be on news stand in May...

Oh ok, I shall have to pick it up then. I am not a big purchaser of magazines myself, too many ads in most of them. However, having a MD guy on the boards is kinda cool :)

RobW
04-27-2006, 04:19 AM
Oh ok, I shall have to pick it up then. I am not a big purchaser of magazines myself, too many ads in most of them. However, having a MD guy on the boards is kinda cool :)

Anssi is a cool guy....and lives in great part of the World :D

Stonecoldtruth
04-27-2006, 04:21 AM
Dextrose + maltodextrine is probably ideal for post-exercise recovery drink. Of course, ideal post-exercise reco drink should also contain other ingrediets such as whey hydrolysate with high degree of hydrolysis, leucine, etc.






Btw, BioQuest´s new recovery product MyoZene contains both leucine and KIC. In fact, it contains about 10 grams of added leucine (+ 5 grams of peptide-bonded leucine from high DH whey hydrolysate). This is a very impressive formula; I just reviewed it for MD mag. However, it is not commercially available yet.





I no longer feel pheylalanine is critical in post-exercise recovery formulations. Whey hydrolysate, leucine, high GI carbs, etc. will almost certainly maximise post-exercise insulin response. Other usefull ingredients include glutamine peptides, creatine monohydrate (not a "recovery supplement" per se, but it is good idea to ingest creatine with insuline-boosting reco drink) and perhaps KIC (as well as certain antioxidants).

A major whey protein manufacturer recently launched a reasonably neutral tasting whey protein hydrolysate.




This product maximises muscle protein anabolism, glycogen re-synthesis and creatine phosphate stores, while minimising biochemical and structural stress responses and immunosuppression. I will provide you with all the details as soon as their are available.


Good info so far, I'm sure he can't release more as of yet though :(

Cheers,
SCT

Anssi Manninen
04-27-2006, 04:22 AM
Give us more info, dont make us buy a magazine...

I will ask BioQuest if I can release product details (this products is not commercially available yet).

Anssi Manninen
04-27-2006, 04:32 AM
Anssi is a cool guy....and lives in great part of the World :D

When you are going to buy me another hamburger..? :D

solarize
04-27-2006, 05:13 AM
Offering any for testers?
What supps are you touting this against (BCAA+carbs comes to mind etc).

Anssi Manninen
04-27-2006, 05:14 AM
Offering any for testers?
What supps are you touting this against (BCAA+carbs comes to mind etc).

I will ask BQ...

Stonecoldtruth
04-27-2006, 05:15 AM
Offering any for testers?
What supps are you touting this against (BCAA+carbs comes to mind etc).

Seems like it would be more of a protein+BCAA+carbs+glutamine+antioxidants

Anssi Manninen
04-27-2006, 05:39 AM
Regarding the content of MyoZene, I will keep you posted...

Lonny
04-28-2006, 07:27 AM
Is there anything novel about it, or the typical pre/post workout mix we've been seeing for years?

Now that you aren't sold on Phenylalanine anymore, do you take back some praise for that muscletech product a few months ago? :)

Vinnie Bobarino
04-28-2006, 07:45 AM
BioQuest’s forthcoming Myozene is scientifically designed to take the guesswork out of optimal post-exercise nutrition. In fact, I feel that Myozene is the most advanced product of its kind ever formulated. This is a very important development because proper post-exercise nutrition is absolutely critical for rapid recovery and maximal muscular gains. For a detailed review, see the August issue of Muscular Development.

When are you ever going to post anything of meaning? Do you have any financial ties to this company?

Posting a picture of a product and a product write up is not helping anyone out. For a supposed authority, I have found all of your posts to be, well, absolutely useless!

nni
04-28-2006, 07:58 AM
im sure it'll taste like crap.

rule of thumb, most things with a good formula taste terrible.

i also hope there are fruit flavors, last thing i want post workout is chocolate or vanilla.

warriors
04-28-2006, 09:54 AM
I'm not worried about the taste. What about the price?

factotum
04-28-2006, 10:14 AM
From the name of the product I thought it might initially be another myostatin type supplement. Thankfully, it's not though. Looks like it may be a decent post workout supp.

nni
04-28-2006, 10:30 AM
I'm not worried about the taste. What about the price?

all i care about is taste, especially post workout.

warriors
04-28-2006, 10:39 AM
all i care about is taste, especially post workout.


pffttt...sissy :D

Mr. Aries
04-28-2006, 10:44 AM
all i care about is taste, especially post workout.


omg you pansy!!! :D

matpal
04-28-2006, 10:45 AM
Is BioQuest owned by Cytodyne and Pro S_ource?

nni
04-28-2006, 11:04 AM
damn right!!!?!?!?!?

there are very few things im willing to take that taste terrible. if i am paying for something, i better enjoy the experience!

Twin Peak
04-28-2006, 12:01 PM
damn right!!!?!?!?!?

there are very few things im willing to take that taste terrible. if i am paying for something, i better enjoy the experience!

Then wait for Replenish. ;) (think XCEED, but slightly better tasting)

nni
04-28-2006, 01:22 PM
Then wait for Replenish. ;) (think XCEED, but slightly better tasting)

im still waiting for the damn black cherry!!!

Anssi Manninen
04-28-2006, 01:48 PM
When are you ever going to post anything of meaning?

I´m will post a comprehesive review of MZ formula very soon... best,
AM

Anssi Manninen
04-28-2006, 01:51 PM
Is there anything novel about it, or the typical pre/post workout mix we've been seeing for years?

Now that you aren't sold on Phenylalanine anymore, do you take back some praise for that muscletech product a few months ago? :)

Phenyalanine is not a bad ingredient at all. However, if a formula contains high-degree whey hydro, a large dose of added leucine, KIC. etc it will maximise insulin secretion anyway.. I guess.

Anssi Manninen
04-28-2006, 01:57 PM
Is there anything novel about it.. ?

Yes.

Anssi Manninen
04-29-2006, 07:41 AM
Finally some info on MyoZene.. Sorry for delay. A product review and some extra notes follows...


BioQuest MyoZene - The Ultimate Muscle Protein Synthesizer

By Anssi Manninen, M.H.S.


BioQuest Pharmaceuticals first entered the field of sports nutrition after recognizing a serious need still existed for a truly effective, natural diet supplement. With a focus on innovation and relentless commitment to science-based technologies, their flagship product, Tetrazene ES-50, has ushered in a new era in the category, while quickly becoming the fastest growing diet product in America today. It is no wonder though, because the researchers at BioQuest are the same ones that developed Xenadrine-RFA-1, which is undoubatedly one of the industry´s most effective and successful fat loss supplements of all time.

Although BioQuest has demostrated a keen knack for developing highly effective diet products, their other real specialty is hard-core sports nutrition. And their newest innovation is a premier example. BioQuest’s MyoZene is scientifically designed to fuel rapid muscle growth by a powerfull matrix of anabolic nutrients proven to stimulate muscle protein synthesis following resistance exercise. In fact, I feel that MyoZene is the most advanced product of its kind ever formulated. This is a very important development because proper post-exercise nutrition is absolutely critical for rapid recovery and maximal muscular gains. What makes MyoZene so effective? Well, let’s examine some science behind its most important ingredients.

Fast-Acting Di- and Tri-peptides from Whey Protein Hydrolysate

MyoZene contains only the highest quality hydrolyzed (pre-digested) whey protein. The hydrolysis process mimics our own digestive actions, thus making it an ideal way to process dietary protein. Myozene´s whey protein has been treated with proprietary enzymes to cut the protein into di- and tripeptides, while the superior amino acid profile of whey is left intact. The di- and tripeptides from MyoZene are rapidly and effectively taken up by the gut and released into the blood without digestion. Also, the MyoZene´s whey protein hydrolysate increases insulin secretion, and insulin increases transport of amino acids into muscle cells. Obviously, these are desirable traits for serious athletes who wish to maximize amino acid delivery to the muscle (e.,g., immediately after exercise). [MyoZene´s sole source of protein is a Euro-made whey protein hydrolysate with a very high degree of hydrolysis. Thus, it has a very low average molecular weight. In other words, it is very high in fast-acting small peptides (eg di- and tripeptides). By the way, the view that high-degree hydrolysates cannot be used in large doses because of extremely bitter taste is no longer valid; see, for example, FitzGerald RJ, O'Cuinn G. Enzymatic debittering of food protein hydrolysates.
Biotechnol Adv. 2006 Mar-Apr;24(2):234-7.]

To highlight this point, a recent study at the Copenhagen Muscle Research Center was implemented to determine the effects different protein-containing solutions have on insulin response and amino acid availability in healthy humans.1 Four different solutions of 600 milliliter were used in this study. The glucose solution (control) contained only glucose, and the three additional solutions contained the same quantity of glucose and protein but proteins were derived from different sources. This study indicated that:

1. Ingestion of glucose and protein hydrolysate results in a synergistic and fast increases in blood insulin. In fact, protein hydrolysates stimulated an increase in blood insulin that was two and four times greater than that produced by the intact (non-hydrolyzed) milk protein solution and glucose solution, respectively.
2. Protein hydrolysates are absorbed at a faster rate from the small intestine than are intact milk proteins, as reflected by the rapid increase in the blood concentration of branched-chain amino acids (BCAA) in peripheral blood.
3. Whey protein hydrolysate elicited the greatest availability of amino acids during the three-hour postprandial (occurring after a meal) period. This difference was attributed to the rapid increase in blood amino acids evoked during the first 40 minutes of the digestive period, during which the increase was about 37% greater after the ingestion of whey protein hydrolysate solution than that after ingestion of the intack milk protein solution.

The authors suggested that the association of high levels of blood amino acids and insulin might explain a superiority of protein hydrolysates over intact proteins in promoting better nitrogen utilization (i.e., greater anabolism), especially when administered in combination with high-glycemic carbohydrates.

Dr. Boza and co-workers compared the effects of whey protein hydrolysate to the free amino acid mixture in starved rats.25 The experiment was designed to provide the same energy intake in both groups. The parameters studied included body weight gain, nitrogen retention, blood amino acid concentrations, and muscle glutamine concentrations. The results revealed that the weight gain was higher in the whey hydrolysate group than in the free amino acid group, and this difference was associated with a higher nitrogen retention. In addition, researchers observed that the blood and muscle glutamine concentrations were higher in rats fed the whey hydrolysate than those in rats fed the free amino acid mixture, even though the glutamine intake was higher in the latter group. The authors conclude that whey protein hydrolysate was more effective than a mixture of free amino acids in the nutritional recovery of the starved rat.

MyoZene provides the right ratio of whey protein hydrolysate and high-glycemic carbohydrates for maximal post-exercise muscle anabolism and rapid glycogen re-synthesis.


A Large Dose of Extra Leucine to Boost Muscle Anabolism

In addition to the high-grade hydrolysates and carbs, MyoZene is also fortified with a large dose of the key branched-chain amino acid leucine, which acts as a nutrient signal to stimulate muscle protein anabolism. After exercise, recovery of muscle protein synthesis requires dietary protein or branched-chain amino acids to increase tissue levels of leucine.2 A well-controlled study by Dr. Koopman and colleagues examined post-exercise muscle protein synthesis and whole body protein balance following the combined ingestion of high-glycemic carbohydrate with or without whey protein hydrolysate and/or leucine.3 The results revealed that the co-ingestion of leucine even further increases the net protein balance, compared with carbohydrate and whey protein hydrolysate ingestion (Figure 1). The authors concluded that, ”the additional ingestion of free leucine in combination with protein and carbohydrate likely represents an effective strategy to increase muscle anabolism following resistance exercise.”

More recently, Dr. Crowe and co-workers investigated the effects of leucine supplementation on the exercise performance of well-trained athletes.4 The subjects underwent testing before and after six weeks of supplementation with either leucine or placebo. The results revealed that leucine supplementation significantly improved endurance performance and upper body power. Researchers suggested that the performance-enhancing effects of leucine were likely related to a reduction in skeletal muscle damage with training and/or an increase in skeletal muscle protein anabolism.

The story continues...

Anssi Manninen
04-29-2006, 07:42 AM
Glutamine Peptides to Prevent Immunosuppression and Anaerobic Stress

MyoZene is enriched with glutamine peptides, which are absorbed more readily than free form glutamine. Glutamine is an important fuel for some cells of the immune system and may have specific immunostimulatory effects. The body’s blood glutamine concentration is lower after rigorous exercise, and this may contribute to impairment of the immune system. A 1997 study by Drs. Castell and Newsholme showed that glutamine supplementation after exercise had a beneficial effect on the level of subsequent infections.7 In addition, there is some evidence that glutamine peptides protect cells from anaerobic stress in a dose dependent fashion. However, free form glutamine does not show this positive effect. Finally, glutamine peptides enhance glycogen-resynthesis.12


KIC to Decrease Muscle Protein Degradation

MyoZene also contains pharmaceutical grade alpha-ketoisocaproic acid (KIC), which is a keto acid of leucine. Branched-chain keto acids (BCKAs) are very similar to branched-chain amino acids (BCAAs). In fact, the only difference is the presence of a keto group instead of an amino group. Thus, BCKAs can be viewed as ammonia-free sources of BCAAs. KIC is clearly the most important BCKA and some feel there’s every reason to believe that KIC will prove to be of value to serious athletes, including bodybuilders. Although leucine can be converted to KIC (transamination) and both tend to increase parallel in the blood when leucine is used, there’s evidence that it has anti-catabolic (protein sparing) properties separate from leucine. A 1984 study, published in Biochemical Journal, reported that leucine stimulated protein synthesis, but didn’t reduce protein degradation when leucine transamination was inhibited.11 Thus, the anti-catabolic effects of leucine, in contrast to its anabolic effects, required its transamination. In addition, KIC stimulates insulin secretion, increasing transport of amino
acids into the muscle cells.


Taurine to Increase Cell Hydration and to Decrease Oxidative Stress

MyoZene is also fortified with taurine, the second most abundant free amino acid in muscle after glutamine. Published research indicates that it has a role in cell hydration,24 which refers to the volume of fluid within the cell. Increasing fluid in the cell (i.e., cell volumization) has been shown to decrease protein breakdown while stimulating protein anabolism. On the other hand, a reduction in cell volume (i.e., cell dehydration) promotes protein breakdown and inhibits anabolism.

Taurine supplementation has other benefits too. A study by Dr. Zhang and colleagues evaluated the protective effects of taurine supplementation on exercise-induced oxidative stress and exercise performance.22 Simply put, seven-day taurine supplementation resulted in a significantly reduced DNA migration after exercise and also significantly increased VO2 max exercise time to exhaustion and maximal workload. The investigators concluded that "taurine may attenuate exercise-induced DNA damage and enhance the capacity of exercise due to its cellular protective properties."

Finally, there is recent evidence suggesting that taurine supplementation may prevent obesity by increasing resting energy expenditure.23


LCTL to Attenuate the Biochemical and Structural Stress and to Increase Fat Utilization

The MyoZene formula is further enhanced with pharmaceutical grade L-carnitine L-tartrate (LCLT). Scientific studies indicate that LCLT attenuates the biochemical and structural stress responses to high-intensity exercise. For example, a recent study by Dr. Volek and colleagues provided compelling evidence of a favorable effect of LCLT supplementation on blood flow regulation during and after moderate-intensity squat exercise, as evidenced by significantly less accumulation of markers of purine degradation, free radical formation, tissue damage, and muscle soreness.5 The authors concluded that “LCLT supplementation is effective in assisting recovery from high-repetition squat exercise.”

Similarly, Dr. Kraemer and co-workers reported that LCLT supplementation reduced the amount of exercise-induced muscle tissue damage, which was assessed via magnetic resonance imaging scans of the thigh. According to the authors, “These data support the use of LCLT as a recovery supplement for hypoxic exercise.”6 Finally, Dr. Giamberardino and colleagues reported that L-carnitine supplementation has a protective effect against pain and damage from strenuous exercise.14 According to the authors of this study, this effect is mainly attributed to the vasodilatation property of the carnitine (i.e., blood vessels become wider), which both improves energetic metabolism of the damaged muscle and enhances wash-out of algogenic (pain-producing) metabolites.

In addition, LCLT may enhance fat utilization. Carnitine supplementation increases fatty acid oxidation (burning) in skeletal muscle by a mechanism that includes increasing total carnitine content in muscle mitochondria (powerhouses of the cell) and the total content of acetyl L-carnitine. 13


German Creatine to Boost Athletic Performance

No post-workout formula would be complete without a high quality creatine. MyoZene provides 100% pure, pharmaceutical grade German creatine monohydrate. Scientific studies have demonstrated that creatine monohydrate supplementation improves maximal power/strength (5-15%), work performed during sets of maximal effort muscle contractions (5-15%), single-effort sprint performance (1-5%), and work performed during repetitive sprint performance (5-15%).8 Also, there is rock-hard evidence showing that creatine monohydrate enhances muscle size responses to resistance training. For example, a recent scientific paper concluded that, “creatine supplementation [creatine monohydrate] in combination with strength training amplifies the training-induced increase in satellite cell number and myonuclei concentration in human skeletal muscle fibres, thereby allowing an enhanced muscle fibre growth in response to strength training.”9 Ingestion of MyoZene results in a fast increase in blood insulin, which maximizes creatine transport into the skeletal muscle.10

Considering the huge numbers of athletes using creatine monohydrate over the past 10 years and the absence of reported problems, it’s very likely that any purported long-term adverse effects are false, exaggerated, or completely unrelated. The aim of the recent study by Dr. H Schoder and colleagues was to investigate the long-term effects of creatine monohydrate supplementation on clinical parameters related to health.19 Eighteen professional basketball players of the first Spanish Basketball League participated in this longitudinal study. The subjects ingested five grams of creatine daily during three competition seasons. Blood samples were collected five times during each of the three official competition seasons of the first National Basketball League. The authors concluded, “Supplementation with creatine did not alter clinical indices related to hepatic [liver] or renal [kidney] pathology or muscle injury.” In fact, the recent study by Dr. R. Santos and co-workers demonstrated that creatine supplementation reduced cell damage and inflammation after exhaustive intense exercise.20 Finally, Dr. Greenwood and colleagues reported that the incidence of cramping or injury was significantly lower or proportional for creatine users compared with nonusers.21 Collectively, these studies indicate that creatine is safe at normal usage levels (i.e., 5 grams four times daily for 5-7 days, followed by up to 5 grams daily indefinitely).

Note: Some sadly misinformed individuals have claimed that about 90 percent of ingested creatine monohydrate will be hydrolyzed to creatinine by stomach acids. True, the rate of formation of creatinine is increased in the presence of acid and therefore accelerated degradation is possible in the lower pH of the stomach. However, creatine degradation to creatinine occurs at its maximal rate at pH 3-4.10 The degradation half-lives for the conversion of creatine to creatinine at pH values 1.4, 3.7 and 6.8 are 55, 7.5 and 40.5 days, respectively.10 At these rates, less than 0.1 gram of a five-gram dose would be lost in one hour. Thus, conversion to creatinine in the gastrointestinal tract is minimal.


A High-Potency Multivitamin/Mineral/Antioxidant Complex

Finally, MyoZene contains a high-potency multivitamin/mineral/antioxidant complex, including high doses of vitamin C and alpha-tocopherol. A recent study demonstrated that supplementation with vitamin C and alpha-tocopherol ameliorates muscle functional decrements subsequent to strenuous exercise.16 Also, vitamin C can reduce muscle soreness and improve recovery from muscle damage.18 Furthermore, there is compelling evidence that vitamin C can prevent the common cold in physically active individuals; five trials found a statistically significant 45 to 91% reduction in common cold incidence in the vitamin C group.15 MyoZene is enriched with sodium and potassium to facilitate effective rehydration (restoration of fluid balance) following exercise.17 Cellular hydration promotes protein anabolism and glycogen synthesis.

Bottom Line

BioQuest´s MyoZene is formulated from the latest, cutting-edge research, the highest-grade ingredients available, rigorous testing protocols, and produced in state-of-the-art manufacturing facilities. For these, and all the reasons and studies cited throughout this article, I highly recommend that every serious bodybuilder should make MyoZene post-workout recovery drink an immediate staple to your supplementation regimen.

For more information on MyoZene, visit www.myozene.com

Anssi Manninen
04-29-2006, 07:43 AM
References (you can check them at www.pubmed.com)

1. Calbet JA, MacLean DA. Plasma glucagon and insulin responses depend on the rate of appearance of amino acids after ingestion of different protein solutions in humans. J Nutr. 2002 Aug;132(8):2174-82.
2. Norton LE, Layman DK. Leucine regulates translation initiation of protein synthesis in skeletal muscle after exercise. J Nutr. 2006 Feb;136(2):533S-537S.
3. Koopman R et al. Combined ingestion of protein and free leucine with carbohydrate increases postexercise muscle protein synthesis in vivo in male subjects. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Apr;288(4):E645-53.
4. Crowe MJ et al. Effects of dietary leucine supplementation on exercise performance. Eur J Appl Physiol. 2005 Oct 29;:1-9.
5. Volek JS et al. L-carnitine L-tartrate supplementation favorably affects markers of recovery from exercise stress. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2002 Feb;282(2):E474-82.
6. Kraemer WJ et al. The effects of L-carnitine L-tartrate supplementation on hormonal responses to resistance exercise and recovery. J Strength Cond Res. 2003 Aug;17(3):455-62.
7. Castell LM, Newsholme EA. The effects of oral glutamine supplementation on athletes after prolonged, exhaustive exercise. Nutrition. 1997 Jul-Aug;13(7-8):738-42.
8. Kreider RB. Effects of creatine supplementation on performance and training adaptations. Mol Cell Biochem. 2003 Feb;244(1-2):89-94.
9. Aagaard P. Creatine supplementation augments the increase in satellite cell and myonuclei number in human skeletal muscle induced by strenght training. J Physiol. 2006 Mar 31; [Epub ahead of print].
10. Persky AM et al. Pharmacokinetics of the dietary supplement creatine. Clin Pharmacokinet. 2003;42(6):557-74.
11. Mitch WE, Clark AS. Specificity of the effects of leucine and its metabolites on protein degradation in skeletal muscle. Biochem J. 1984 Sep 15;222(3):579-86.
12. van Hall G et al. The effect of free glutamine and peptide ingestion on the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis in man. Int J Sports Med. 2000 Jan;21(1):25-30.
13. Bacurau RF et al. Does exercise training interfere with the effects of L-carnitine supplementation? Nutrition. 2003 Apr;19(4):337-41.
14. Giamberardino MA et al. Effects of prolonged L-carnitine administration on delayed muscle pain and CK release after eccentric effort. Int J Sports Med. 1996 Jul;17(5):320-4.
15. Hemila H. Vitamin C supplementation and respiratory infections: a systematic review. Mil Med. 2004 Nov;169(11):920-5.
16. Shafat A et al. Effects of dietary supplementation with vitamins C and E on muscle function during and after eccentric contractions in humans. Eur J Appl Physiol. 2004 Oct;93(1-2):196-202.
17. Maughan RJ, Shirrefs SM. Recovery from prolonged exercise: restoration of water and electrolyte balance. J Sports Sci. 1997 Jun;15(3):297-303.
18. Kaminksi M, Boal R. An effect of ascorbic acid on delayed-onset muscle soreness. Pain. 1992 Sep;50(3):317-21.
19. Schroder H et al. Risk assessment of the potential side effects of long-term creatine supplementation in team sport athletes.Eur J Nutr. 2005 Jun;44(4):255-61.
20. Santos RV et al. The effect of creatine supplementation upon inflammatory and muscle soreness markers after a 30km race. Life Sci. 2004 Sep 3;75(16):1917-24.
21. Greenwood M et al. Cramping and injury incidence in collegiate football players are reduced by creatine supplementation. J Athl Train. 2003 Sep;38(3):216-219.
22. Zhang M et al. Role of taurine supplementation to prevent exercise-induced oxidative stress in healthy young men. Amino Acids. 2004 Mar;26(2):203-7.
23. Tsuboyama-Kasaoka N et al. Taurine deficiency creates a vicious circle promoting obesity. Endocrinology. 2006 Apr 20; [Epub ahead of print].
24. Lourenco R, Camilo ME. Taurine: a conditionally essential amino acid in humans? An overview in health and disease. Nutr Hosp. 2002 Nov-Dec;17(6):262-70.
25. Boza JJ et al. Protein hydrolysate vs free amino acid-based diets on the nutritional recovery of the starved rat. Eur J Nutr. 2000 Dec;39(6):237-43.

Dr.Dave1
04-29-2006, 08:51 AM
That sound like an interesting product . . . I will be interested to here feedback.
I have a few questions for you, which I had brought up in another thread on KIC http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=742820, if the benefit of KIC that they are looking for is the anticatabolic effect why not use HMB? Is there evidence to say that the anti-catabolic effects of KIC are or are not related to KIC conversion to HMB? (metabolic pathway: Lecine-> KIC-> HMB) Or is this just another company jumping on the KIC bandwagon? I would not think bulk KIC is cheaper than HMB (at least not from what I have found in my searches) and HMB has proven anti-catabolic effects (even though it seems to have fallen out of popularity as of late).

Thoughts?

Anssi Manninen
04-29-2006, 08:59 AM
That sound like an interesting product . . . I will be interested to here feedback.
I have a few questions for you, which I had brought up in another thread on KIC http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=742820, if the benefit of KIC that they are looking for is the anticatabolic effect why not use HMB? Is there evidence to say that the anti-catabolic effects of KIC are or are not related to KIC conversion to HMB? (metabolic pathway: Lecine-> KIC-> HMB) Or is this just another company jumping on the KIC bandwagon? I would not think bulk KIC is cheaper than HMB (at least not from what I have found in my searches) and HMB has proven anti-catabolic effects (even though it seems to have fallen out of popularity as of late).

Thoughts?

It seems to me that HMB wasnt as effective as claimed by Nissen et al. After all, Nissen owns the HMB patent.. Nissen even claims that the anabolic/anticatabolic effects of leucine are mediated via HMB. This is an incorrect statement. I would ingest leucine (and perhaps KIC) after exercise rather than HMB; both leucine and KIC stimulate insulin secretion.

Anssi Manninen
04-29-2006, 09:13 AM
By the way, fast-acting protein-amino-carb mixtures like MyoZene can be also used during exercise. It should noted, however, that the subjects of this study fasted 4 h..


Liquid carbohydrate/essential amino acid ingestion during a short-term bout of resistance exercise suppresses myofibrillar protein degradation.

Bird SP, Tarpenning KM, Marino FE.

School of Human Movement Studies, Charles Sturt University, Bathurst, NSW 2795, Australia.

A number of physiological events including the level of contractile activity, nutrient status, and hormonal action influence the magnitude of exercise-induced skeletal muscle growth. However, it is not the independent action of a single mechanism, but the complex interaction between events that enhance the long-term adaptations to resistance training. The purpose of the present investigation was to examine the influence of liquid carbohydrate (CHO) and essential amino acid (EAA) ingestion during resistance exercise and modification of the immediate hormonal response on myofibrillar protein degradation as assessed by 3-methylhistidine (3-MH) excretion. After a 4-hour fast, 32 untrained young men (18-29 years) performed a single bout of resistance exercise (complete body; 3 sets x 10 repetitions at 75% of 1-repetition maximum; 1-minute rest between sets), during which they consumed a 6% CHO (n = 8) solution, a 6-g EAA (n = 8) mixture, a combined CHO + EAA (n = 8) supplement, or placebo (PLA; n = 8) beverage. Resistance exercise performed in conjunction with CHO and CHO + EAA ingestion resulted in significantly elevated (P < .001) glucose and insulin concentrations above baseline, whereas EAA ingestion only increased the postexercise insulin response (P < .05). Time matched at 60 minutes, the PLA group exhibited a peak cortisol increase of 105% (P < .001) with no significant change in glucose or insulin concentrations. Conversely, the CHO and CHO + EAA groups displayed a decrease in cortisol levels of 11% and 7%, respectively. Coinciding with these hormonal response patterns were significant differences in myofibrillar protein degradation. Ingestion of the EAA and CHO treatments attenuated 3-MH excretion 48 hours after the exercise bout. Moreover, this response was synergistically potentiated when the 2 treatments were combined, with CHO + EAA ingestion resulting in a 27% reduction (P < .01) in 3-MH excretion. In contrast, the PLA group displayed a 56% increase (P < .01) in 3-MH excretion. These data demonstrate that not only does CHO and EAA ingestion during the exercise bout suppress exercise-induced cortisol release; the stimulatory effect of resistance exercise on myofibrillar protein degradation can be attenuated, most dramatically when the treatments are combined (CHO + EAA). Through an "anticatabolic effect," this altered balance may better favor the conservation of myofibrillar protein.

Dr.Dave1
04-29-2006, 09:13 AM
It seems to me that HMB wasnt as effective as claimed by Nissen et al. After all, Nissen owns the HMB patent.. Nissen even claims that the anabolic/anticatabolic effects of leucine are mediated via HMB. This is an incorrect statement. I would ingest leucine (and perhaps KIC) after exercise rather than HMB; both leucine and KIC stimulate insulin secretion.

Why not just take Leucine and HMB? Leucine will be converted to KIC and you end up with hi levels of Leucine, KIC and HMB. I admit I am not familiar with the conversion rate of Leucine to KIC but I asked Layne . . .

I really don't think it's a big deal either way. I mean the leucine to KIC conversion is pretty much at equilibrium so, if you add in more leucine, you get more KIC... so even though KIC may play a role in stimulation of synthesis/inhibition of degredation, simply supplementing with straight leucine will ensure you get enough of both.

-Layne
. . . So, it sounds like adding the KIC does not give much of an increased benefit over Leucine alone (although as I said I am not sure) . . .

Anssi Manninen
04-29-2006, 09:16 AM
Why not just take Leucine and HMB? Leucine will be converted to KIC and you end up with hi levels of Leucine, KIC and HMB. I admit I am not familiar with the conversion rate of Leucine to KIC but I asked Layne . . .

. . . So, it sounds like adding the KIC does not give much of an increased benefit over Leucine alone (although as I said I am not sure) . . .

I tend to agree with Layne. Leucine is THE key to post-exercise muscle protein anabolism. However, soem extra KIC may offer some benefits..

Anssi Manninen
04-29-2006, 09:22 AM
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/95/5/2180

Dr.Dave1
04-29-2006, 09:24 AM
I tend to agree with Layne. Leucine is THE key to post-exercise muscle protein anabolism. However, soem extra KIC may offer some benefits..
Cool, Thanks for your thoughts.
It looks like I am the only one supporting HMB. I'll just have to prove you all wrong someday . . . or maybe I'll just confirm your thoughts . . . eh, either way ;)

Jsorb8997
04-29-2006, 09:28 AM
Anssi, sorry to hijack, but do you have any thoughts about Kre-Alkalyn? Millennium Sport Tech (username Millennium1) seems very convinced about Creatine's conversion to Creatinine in water (100% in under one minute or something). He also has a study funded by his company which shows the same thing...

Care to comment?

Thanks.

Anssi Manninen
04-29-2006, 09:29 AM
Cool, Thanks for your thoughts.
It looks like I am the only one supporting HMB. I'll just have to prove you all wrong someday . . . or maybe I'll just confirm your thoughts . . . eh, either way ;)

Give me 2 h to double-check my articles (a truckload :) )... I may find something interesting on KIC/HMB...

Anssi Manninen
04-29-2006, 09:31 AM
Anssi, sorry to hijack, but do you have any thoughts about Kre-Alkalyn? Millennium Sport Tech (username Millennium1) seems very convinced about Creatine's conversion to Creatinine in water (100% in under one minute or something). He also has a study funded by his company which shows the same thing...

Care to comment?

Thanks.

Well, creatine monohydrate is still the ONLY proven form of creatine (there is also evidence that creatine phopshate works but it is expensive and does not offer any advantages over creatine mono).

However, this does not mean that other forms of creatine are worthless (actually creatine serum is useless.) There is simply no PUBLISHED evidence supporting their use..

Anssi Manninen
04-29-2006, 09:35 AM
...seems very convinced about Creatine's conversion to Creatinine in water (100% in under one minute or something). He also has a study funded by his company which shows the same thing...

Care to comment?

Thanks.

Conversion of creatine monohydate to creatinine is minimal. I would like to see that in-house study you mentioned..

Dr.Dave1
04-29-2006, 09:38 AM
Give me 2 h to double-check my articles (a truckload :) )... I may find something interesting on KIC/HMB...
That would be great, I would definitely be interested in your thoughts on KIC/HMB :)

Jsorb8997
04-29-2006, 03:35 PM
"Lab tests have shown that creatine monohydrate (and other forms as well)mixed into an acidic formulation (sugar, juice, ala, etc.) converts to creatinine by 100% in 43 seconds when mixed into liquid. The conversion time is dependant on pH of mixing solution and what else is in the creatine product. As you can see by the chart plain monohydtrate in water (pH of 7..neutral) converts by 100% in 8.4 minutes, which is still unacceptable."


http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/ms/krea.html

Anssi Manninen
04-30-2006, 03:54 AM
"Lab tests have shown that creatine monohydrate (and other forms as well)mixed into an acidic formulation (sugar, juice, ala, etc.) converts to creatinine by 100% in 43 seconds when mixed into liquid. The conversion time is dependant on pH of mixing solution and what else is in the creatine product. As you can see by the chart plain monohydtrate in water (pH of 7..neutral) converts by 100% in 8.4 minutes, which is still unacceptable."


http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/ms/krea.html

I dont believe this statement. Creatine monohydrate supplementation certainly increases muscle creatine phosphate levels...

Phosphate bond
04-30-2006, 04:03 AM
Amazing a supplement with Creapure German creatine and not the other trendy stuff. I like it! Actually I wish more products had Creapure in it.

I do like that magnesium creatine chelate though.

Anssi Manninen
04-30-2006, 04:27 AM
Yes, MyoZene contains Creapure creatine monohydrate. Lab tests have consistently showed that Creapure is the purest creatine monohydrate powder one this planet.

deserusan
04-30-2006, 04:41 AM
Nice article Annsi. Looks to be a good product and grounded in some solid science.

Anssi Manninen
04-30-2006, 04:51 AM
Thanks, dese.

It seems to me you are getting good results from MT´s post-exercise supp, so you may want to give MyoZene a try once it is commercially available.

I like the fact that MyoZene utilizes only high-degree whey hydro, contains large dose of extra leucine, etc. While whey hydrolysates are nothing new, I think people never gave them a fair try. You see, whey hydros used to taste like donkey ball extract (and most still do), so supplement companies utilized hydros in MINIMAL amounts. Or, they utilized hydrolysates with low degree of hydrolysis, providing mainly slow-acting large peptides.

However, I feel it is waste of money to use hydros in MRPs (high-quality whey hydro cost about 3x more than whey protein concentrate).

Anssi Manninen
04-30-2006, 05:13 AM
That would be great, I would definitely be interested in your thoughts on KIC/HMB :)

I was not able to find rock-hard evidence supporting KIC supplementation. However, there is certainly evidence that it has anti-catabolic properties as well as stimulates insulin secretion.

Stonecoldtruth
04-30-2006, 05:37 AM
Thanks, dese.

It seems to me you are getting good results from MT´s post-exercise supp, so you may want to give MyoZene a try once it is commercially available.

I like the fact that MyoZene utilizes only high-degree whey hydro, contains large dose of extra leucine, etc. While whey hydrolysates are nothing new, I think people never gave them a fair try. You see, whey hydros used to taste like donkey ball extract (and most still do), so supplement companies utilized hydros in MINIMAL amounts. Or, they utilized hydrolysates with low degree of hydrolysis, providing mainly slow-acting large peptides.

However, I feel it is waste of money to use hydros in MRPs (high-quality whey hydro cost about 3x more than whey protein concentrate).

Looking at the product specifications, do you think it would be more cost efficient to go with like a t-r-u-e-p-r-o-t-e-i-n customized Hydrolyzed blend and then just add your own German Creapure?

Obviously you lose the extra leucine that way though..

But TP has the BSL flavoring *rubs tummy*

Your thoughts?

Cheers,
SCT

Anssi Manninen
04-30-2006, 05:38 AM
Just FYI: The free full text paper of the Koopman study examining effects of whey hydro + large dose leucine + high-GI carbs on post-exercise muscle anabolism is now available:

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/288/4/E645

Anssi Manninen
04-30-2006, 05:45 AM
Looking at the product specifications, do you think it would be more cost efficient to go with like a t-r-u-e-p-r-o-t-e-i-n customized Hydrolyzed blend and then just add your own German Creapure?

Obviously you lose the extra leucine that way though..

But TP has the BSL flavoring *rubs tummy*

Your thoughts?

Cheers,
SCT

Please provide more info on *********** stuff... btw, it should be noted that the cheapest protein hydrolysates are ACID hydrolysed. You want to use ENZYMATICALLY hydrolysed protein only.

Stonecoldtruth
04-30-2006, 05:52 AM
Please provide more info on *********** stuff..




Hydrolyzed Whey Protein High Grade

True Protein’s Hydrolyzed Whey Protein High Grade is
derived from sweet dairy whey. Hydrolyzed Whey is
enzymatically partially digested protein. This hydrolyzing
process splits proteins in to smaller chain peptides and amino
acids, di and tri peptides. This in turn makes the end product
more biologically accessible to the user. Hydrolyzed whey is
the most digestible source of whey protein. This process of
hydrolysis allows the protein to be absorbed quickly through
the small intestine. More than half (up to 80%) of the protein
ingested bypasses the stomach and is absorbed into the
small intestine, allowing the greatest potential for lean muscle
tissue. Studies have also shown that hydrolyzed proteins with
short chain amino acids (di and tri peptides) can increase IGF-1.

True Protein offers two types of hydrolyzed whey protein, or
Concentrate and our High Grade. Both are great products and
provide the user with fast absorption and the benefits of a
hydrolyzed whey. Our Hydrolyzed Whey Protein Concentrate
level of hydrolysis is lower or less then our High Grade, as it
is, our Hydrolyzed Concentrate is not as readily or rapidly
absorbed in the small intestine as our High Grade. Basically,
more protein is absorbed through the small intestine with our
High Grade, than our Concentrate.

With that being said, both of our Hydrolyzed Whey Proteins
possess a bitter taste basically the more the protein is digested
or hydrolyzed the more bitter it becomes. We at True Protein
recommend not going over 60% Hydrolyzed Whey Protein
Concentrate and 25% Hydrolyzed Whey Protein High Grade in
your custom mixes.

Warning with our High Grade, this protein possesses a very bitter
taste, that is definitely not for the faint at heart. You may want to
order this separately to gauge how much you are effected by the
taste. But remember, the benefits far out way the 2 minutes of the
bad taste in your mouth.


That is the information about their Hydrolyzed High Grade, obviously you'd have to mix something else in with it to avoid all hell breaking loose on your taste buds. Since it is a Post Workout drink I'd go with WPC or WPI.

However, for arguement's sake here are all of the options:



Whey Protein Concentrate $ 4.19/lb.
Whey Protein Isolate Ion-exchange $ 8.88/lb.
Whey Protein Isolate microfiltration $ 7.99/lb.
Whey Protein Isolate Cold-Filtration $ 6.89/lb.
Hydrolyzed Whey Protein Concentrate $ 8.95/lb.
Hydrolyzed Whey Protein High Grade $ 9.95/lb.
Hydrolyzed Casein $ 14.95/lb.
Calcium Caseinate $ 6.79/lb.
Micellar Casein $ 10.50/lb.
Milk Protein Isolate $ 6.79/lb.
Egg White Protein $ 7.49/lb.
Whole Egg Protein $ 9.50/lb.
Soy Protein Isolate $ 4.49/lb.


Other things you can add in:



Maltodextrin $ 2.25/lb.
Dextrose $ 2.25/lb.
Fructose $ 2.25/lb.
Flax Powder $ 17.95/lb.
MCT Powder $ 16.95/lb.
Creatine Monohydrate $ 9.00/lb.
L-Glutamine $ 16.55/lb.
Glutamine Peptides $ 19.55/lb.
Branch Chain Amino Acids $ 19.99/lb.
Taurine Powder $ 7.35/lb.


So, for example. I'd probably go with the 50% Hydrolzed Whey and 50% WPC with some tasty BSL Chocolate flavoring, costing me around 6.57 a pound (before seperate purchase of the Creapure)


SCT

Dr.Dave1
04-30-2006, 05:58 AM
I was not able to find rock-hard evidence supporting KIC supplementation. However, there is certainly evidence that it has anti-catabolic properties as well as stimulates insulin secretion.
Thanks for looking into it, I appreciate it. I think I may have to try my own hybrid (w/ HMB instead of KIC) of their product down the road since I have most of the ingredients in bulk already . . . just to see for myself ;)

Anssi Manninen
04-30-2006, 05:58 AM
*********** stuff appears to be extremely bitter tasting "old-school" whey hydrolysate. If you can tolerate the taste you may want to give it a try.

Stonecoldtruth
04-30-2006, 06:00 AM
*********** stuff appears to be extremely bitter tasting "old-school" whey hydrolysate. If you can tolerate the taste you may want to give it a try.

I'm going to buy a pound of it and try it out, and I'm sure I'll try MyoZene too, if the cost benefit does not outweigh the taste benefit.. heh.

Thanks for chiming in, it means a lot to have you on the boards here.

Anssi Manninen
04-30-2006, 06:08 AM
Although I dont have a clue about MyoZene pricing, I´m pretty sure it will be relatively expensive. MZ´s Euro-made whey hydro alone is pretty expensive; however, it has very high degree of (gentle) hydrolysis AND reasonably neutral taste. To my knowledge, BioQuest is the only US sports supplement using this stuff. Doctors give this stuff to infants, expecially premature babies.

Stonecoldtruth
04-30-2006, 06:11 AM
Although I dont have a clue about MyoZene pricing, I´m pretty sure it will be relatively expensive. MZ´s Euro-made whey hydro alone is pretty expensive; however, it has very high degree of (gentle) hydrolysis AND reasonably neutral taste. To my knowledge, BioQuest is the only US sports supplement using this stuff. Doctors give this stuff to infants, expecially premature babies.

Wouldn't predigested protein leave babies hungry relatively soon after the feeding? Or is it more for the speed of nutrient delivery?

Anssi Manninen
04-30-2006, 06:15 AM
Wouldn't predigested protein leave babies hungry relatively soon after the feeding? Or is it more for the speed of nutrient delivery?

Well, if one is a premature baby, there is certainly nothing wrong in being hungry.. :)

Anssi Manninen
04-30-2006, 06:23 AM
****c is the another reason why whey hydro is used in infant formulations. Whey hydro is less allergenic than intact milk proteins; this might reduce symptoms of ****c and possibly decrease the risk that the infant will later develop allergies.

Outside backer
04-30-2006, 11:32 AM
damn how about just possible a ball park pricing figure

and to the person mention TP custom mixing

please let us know how it goes

Anssi Manninen
04-30-2006, 11:37 AM
damn how about just possible a ball park pricing figure


I dont have a clue. Contact BioQuest:

Mailing Address
BioQuest Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
P.O. Box 1257
Wall, NJ 07719-1257

Phone Numbers
Call Toll-Free 7 Days a Week: 1-866-377-8378
Outside the U.S.: (732)292-4600
Fax #: (732) 292-3095

productquestions@nutraquest.net

dwm230000
04-30-2006, 12:23 PM
Is BioQuest owned by Cytodyne and Pro S_ource?

???????

Jsorb8997
04-30-2006, 04:29 PM
I HATE *********.

Anssi Manninen
05-01-2006, 04:24 AM
Btw, please do NOT send me email or private messages asking MYoZene price etc. Rather, contact BioQuest. Here is their contact info:

Mailing Address
BioQuest Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
P.O. Box 1257
Wall, NJ 07719-1257

Phone Numbers
Call Toll-Free 7 Days a Week: 1-866-377-8378
Outside the U.S.: (732)292-4600
Fax #: (732) 292-3095

Email:
productquestions@nutraquest.net

Best,
AM :)

Slated
05-01-2006, 05:44 AM
Cytodyne + Pro_Source = Cry

The put out over priced, under dosed supps and took thousands from me before I got the internet and could learn for myself. If this is an affiliated product, I will be pissed.

Does ********* have investments in MD?

Anssi Manninen
05-01-2006, 05:54 AM
Cytodyne + Pro_Source = Cry

The put out over priced, under dosed supps and took thousands from me before I got the internet and could learn for myself. If this is an affiliated product, I will be pissed.

Does ********* have investments in MD?

Well, MyoZene is certainly not a under dosed supplement. For example, it contains about 10 grams of ADDED leucine + about 5 grams of peptide-bonded leucine.

Also, ProSouce have no investments in MD.

Slated
05-01-2006, 05:57 AM
Is ********* or cytodyne affiliated in any way with Myozene?

Anssi Manninen
05-01-2006, 05:59 AM
As far as I know, NutraQuest was formerly called Cytodyne Tech, and NutraQuest owns Bioquest Pharma or something.. But I´m not sure so you have to ask BioQuest people.

Joel
05-01-2006, 06:12 AM
As far as I know, NutraQuest was formerly called Cytodyne Tech, and NutraQuest owns Bioquest Pharma or something.. But I´m not sure so you have to ask BioQuest people.


Send me this product and I will review it !

pogue
05-01-2006, 06:13 AM
I have used a similar formula in the past by Xtreme Formulations called Relentless. It is expensive, but it works very well. But, with all the new supplements that come out every month it seems to have been forgotten. It's based on Zeppelin's writeup on M&M.

Pre/During/Post Workout Nutrtion (http://www.mindandmuscle.net/mindandmuscle/magpage.php?issueID=5&artID=99966) (You have to agree to a disclaimer and then go back and click the link to the article again)

Xtreme Formulations Relentless (http://tinyurl.com/h8awt)


What's In It?
Supplement Facts:

Serving Size: 2 Scoops
Servings Per Container: 12

Amount Per Serving:

Calories 290
Calories from Fat 5
Total Fat .5g 1%
Saturated Fat .5g 1%
Cholesterol 30mg 10%
Total Carbohydrate 41g 14%
Dietary Fiber 0g 0%
Sugars 27g 0%
Protein 21g
Calcium 71mg
Sodium 80mg

Proprietary Amino Acid Blend Consisting of L-Glutamine, L-Leucine, L-Isoleucine, L-Valine, L-Phenylalanine, L-Proline, & L-Histidine: 9 grams

Ingredients:
Hydrolyzed Whey Protein, Dextrose, Maltodextrin, fructose, BCAA, Glutamine, Phenylalaine, N&A Flavors, Acetyl-L-Carnintine, Phosphatidyl-serine, & Sucralose

Directions:
For a great tasting post-workout shake mix the appropriate number of servings in cold water with a shaker bottle and enjoy. Note: A serving of relentless constitutes 2 rounded scoops.

Under 200lbs / 1 serving / 8-12 oz of water
200-220lbs / 1.5 serving / 12-16 oz of water
over 220lbs / 2 servings / 16-20 oz of water

I've designed my own PWO shake that I'm hoping to pitch to a supplement company soon that I think will be very successful as well.

Anssi Manninen
05-01-2006, 06:15 AM
Pogue, thanks for the article link! :)

Joel
05-01-2006, 06:16 AM
I have used a similar formula in the past by Xtreme Formulations called Relentless. It is expensive, but it works very well. But, with all the new supplements that come out every month it seems to have been forgotten. It's based on Zeppelin's writeup on M&M.

Pre/During/Post Workout Nutrtion (http://www.mindandmuscle.net/mindandmuscle/magpage.php?issueID=5&artID=99966) (You have to agree to a disclaimer and then go back and click the link to the article again)

Xtreme Formulations Relentless (http://tinyurl.com/h8awt)



I've designed my own PWO shake that I'm hoping to pitch to a supplement company soon that I think will be very successful as well.

lol @ boycott MI 3

I agree ,lets all go see XMen 3 instead

Anssi Manninen
05-01-2006, 06:16 AM
Send me this product and I will review it !

How many times I have to say.. :) Contact BQ!

AM

Slated
05-01-2006, 06:18 AM
I have used a similar formula in the past by Xtreme Formulations called Relentless. It is expensive, but it works very well. But, with all the new supplements that come out every month it seems to have been forgotten. It's based on Zeppelin's writeup on M&M.

Pre/During/Post Workout Nutrtion (http://www.mindandmuscle.net/mindandmuscle/magpage.php?issueID=5&artID=99966) (You have to agree to a disclaimer and then go back and click the link to the article again)

Xtreme Formulations Relentless (http://tinyurl.com/h8awt)



I've designed my own PWO shake that I'm hoping to pitch to a supplement company soon that I think will be very successful as well.
Pogue,

Check out www.nutralogixlabs.com and email Troy your pitch. I'm certain he'd like to talk to you!

Joel
05-01-2006, 06:19 AM
How many times I have to say.. :) Contact BQ!

AM

Anssi cmon use your connections and hook us up !

You are the man !

Anssi Manninen
05-01-2006, 06:26 AM
Ok.. I will email them and ask if they can send a free MyoZene bottle to some bb.com testers.. I will keep you posted.

Slated
05-01-2006, 06:31 AM
Ok.. I will email them and ask if they can send a free MyoZene bottle to some bb.com testers.. I will keep you posted.
There's a good bro ;)

They need to pick testers as samples are only good for taste impressions in my opinion.

I'm going to have to call one of my bros about this who used to be a VP for cyto....

Anssi Manninen
05-01-2006, 06:35 AM
They need to pick testers as samples are only good for taste impressions in my opinion.

I agree. One serving samples cannot tell anything about the effectiveness of such a product.

Slated
05-01-2006, 06:36 AM
I agree. One serving samples cannot tell anything about the effectiveness of such a product.
Too few people understand or care about this. That's why for other than taste, I disregard all sample product reviews (unless it's a stim)

Anssi Manninen
05-01-2006, 06:45 AM
Whats the time in NJ.? Are they still in bed...?

Slated
05-01-2006, 06:46 AM
8:46

Anssi Manninen
05-01-2006, 06:54 AM
So they should be up pretty soon.. I would nice to learn something about the pricing too..

Slated
05-01-2006, 06:58 AM
Well, since Cytodyne is owned by *********, I don't know if the mods would allow a rep to be here from them... So any info you can get would be good, otherwise I'm going to call one of their former VPs tonight after work.

Anssi Manninen
05-01-2006, 07:01 AM
Well, since Cytodyne is owned by *********,

I think its other way around. Whatever, I will ask them to send that info directly to me. Also, I think BB.com store will also sell MyoZene, so can I assume that it is OK to talk about this product..? At leats the moderators havent deleted this thread yet... :)

Slated
05-01-2006, 07:04 AM
true

Anssi Manninen
05-01-2006, 08:40 AM
Speaking of post-exercise supplementation, what the heck is chicken essence..?

Chin J Physiol. 2005 Dec 31;48(4):187-92. Related Articles, Links


Effects of postexercise supplementation of chicken essence on the elimination of exercise-induced plasma lactate and ammonia.

Lo HI, Tsi D, Tan AC, Wang SW, Hsu MC.

Graduate Institute of Physical Education, National College of Physical Education and Sports, Taoyuan, Taiwan, ROC.

We investigated the effects of chicken essence (CE) supplementation on exercise-induced changes of lactate and ammonia during recovery. In this randomized, double blind, crossover study, twelve healthy subjects performed a single bout of exercise to exhaustion, and then consumed either a placebo or CE within 5-min of the exercise cessation. Blood samples were collected before exercise, at exhaustion (0 minute), and 20, 40, 60, and 120 minutes, respectively during the recovery period. There were no differences in plasma glucose, creatine kinase, or heart rate responses between treatments. The exercise exhaustion significantly increased the levels of lactate and ammonia, and both measured values gradually declined during the recovery period. Ammonia levels at 40, 60, and 120 min. of the recovery period were observed lower significantly in the CE group, as compared to those in the placebo group. Additionally, lactate concentrations at 60 and 120 min were lower in the CE group, as compared to those in the placebo group. In conclusion, the main finding of this study was that CE supplementation after exercise reduces plasma lactate and ammonia levels. The results indicated that CE supplementation after an exhaustive exercise could enhance physiological recovery in humans.

Publication Types:
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 16548420 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

rcramden
05-01-2006, 08:01 PM
Annsi
i've been using their thermogenic tetrazene and am impressed with it. although it doesnt look like theres antything special on the label, i defintely get better energy from it than other products with similar ingr and have leaned out alot since using it.now i'm curious to try more products from them but was wondering if it has aspartame because i'm allergic to it.

Anssi Manninen
05-02-2006, 02:51 AM
I have to double-check is the sweetener sucralose or aspartame. I will keep you posted, dude. BioQuest people are now fixing the flavor. They want that MZ is not only very effective but also great tasting. The mass production should start in the near days.

bpi
05-02-2006, 03:50 AM
I hope this is not a proprietary blend. Otherwise, it looks like a decent PWO supplement.

Anssi Manninen
05-02-2006, 04:04 AM
A proprietary blend meaning..?

Joel
05-02-2006, 04:11 AM
A proprietary blend meaning..?


meaning the amounts of the individual ingredients are not revealed

wtf@ you not knowing this : )

Anssi Manninen
05-02-2006, 04:15 AM
I assume that BQ will not reveal exact amouns of ingredients. But I do know they use them in proven doses. For example, MyoZene contains about 10 grams of added leucine + about 5 grams of peptide-bonded leucine per serving.

Dr.Dave1
05-02-2006, 06:58 AM
Speaking of post-exercise supplementation, what the heck is chicken essence..?

. . . .The results indicated that CE supplementation after an exhaustive exercise could enhance physiological recovery in humans.




For amusement I did a search on Ovid and found a few articles that talked about chicken essence. Here is some info

Title Effects of chicken essence tablets on resting metabolic rate.
Source Bioscience, Biotechnology & Biochemistry. 65(9):2083-6, 2001 Sep.
Authors Ikeda T. Nishijima Y. Kiso Y. Shibata H. Ono H. Moritani T.
Abstract Resting energy expenditure (REE) values after consuming chicken essence tablets were significantly higher than those observed after consuming skim milk protein tablets (control trial). The increased thermogenic effects continued at least for a period of one hour and gradually decreased towards the baseline. The REE values during control treatment did not show such an augmented response.




It is traditionally made by extracting water soluble substances by gently cooking chicken for several hours in a double boiler so that it is not heated above the boiling point of water. . . has thermogenic effects

chicken essence tablet (used in this study) is 0.77g: 0.66 being from protein, 0.01 carnosine, 0.10 from anserine.

So . . . basically it's kinda like condensed chicken broth or chicken bouillion

I guess ya better start adding some bouillon to your preworkout shake to increase fat burining and to your post workout shake to aid the recovery effort. You better tell those guys from BQ they should include some chicken essence to MyoZene ;)

Slated
05-02-2006, 07:01 AM
Another proprietary blend :eek:
:eek:
:eek:
:eek:
:eek:
:cry:
:(

Anssi Manninen
05-02-2006, 07:16 AM
Dr. Dave,

I also just read that energy expenditure study. Pretty interesting.

However, I dont think this stuff is very usefull in post-exercise supps. The study examining post-exercise recovery was related to rather meaningless markers such as lactate.

Dr.Dave1
05-02-2006, 07:42 AM
Dr. Dave,

I also just read that energy expenditure study. Pretty interesting.

However, I dont think this stuff is very usefull in post-exercise supps. The study examining post-exercise recovery was related to rather meaningless markers such as lactate.
Ha ha yeah I was just kidding about that (and the preworkout too) I don't think we will be seeing chicken essence in many supps.
Darn . . . I was really looking forward to the refreshing taste of chicken flavored postworkout shakes. :eek:

Anssi Manninen
05-02-2006, 08:14 AM
Darn . . . I was really looking forward to the refreshing taste of chicken flavored postworkout shakes. :eek:

Hah.. Ayone have tasted protein soups..?
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/cj/soup.html

Dr.Dave1
05-02-2006, 08:49 AM
Hah.. Ayone have tasted protein soups..?
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/cj/soup.html
I can't say that I have but I like the idea of a self-heating can . . . I would be tempted to try one just to see how/if the can works. However I don't think I will buy 12 cans for $60 just to see if the can heats itself ;)



OnTech (can manufacturer) has combined centuries-old knowledge with state-of-the-art packaging to create a revolutionary container that heats itself. Pressing the bottom of the container breaks a foil seal and allows water to drain into the heating chamber, which contains quicklime. This combination creates heat. The beverage is heated without ever touching the mixture. Quicklime is created by cooking limestone rocks. Limestone and quicklime are nontoxic and nonhazardous.

rcramden
05-02-2006, 08:51 AM
any idea how much and when can i order some?

Anssi Manninen
05-02-2006, 08:55 AM
any idea how much and when can i order some?

I have no idea. Contact BioQuest.

Anssi Manninen
05-02-2006, 08:57 AM
Some have asked if they can use cheaper whey protein concentrate instead of whey hydro. Well, I dont think they will get same results from non-hydrolyzed WPC.

As summarized by Dr. Mauro Di Pasquale, "The botton line is that hydrolysates cotaining a mixture of small peptides and free amino acids are absorbed faster and produce a more pharmacological effects (increasing GH and insulin response) than mixtures of free amino acids, and much faster than whole food proteins [i.e., intack proteins]... Many [commerical] preparations state that they have small peptides when in fact the amount of these peptides is very low, with most of the preparation being in the form of large oligopeptides."

Anssi Manninen
05-02-2006, 03:14 PM
Speaking of protein hydrolysates and recovery, they are one of the main topics at the ISSN Annual Conference 2006:
http://www.sportsnutritionsociety.org/site/conferences_details.php?id=24

Anssi Manninen
05-02-2006, 05:47 PM
The Ideal Form of Protein

By Luke R. Bucci, Ph.D., CCN C (ASCP) CNS.

It has been said that during the last decade science has revealed more sports nutrition breakthroughs than in the previous 100 years. For athletes in the know, this is their secret weapon, the place where brains and brawn come together to go beyond genetic potential. This article will focus on the state of the art for protein, the most revered macronutrient for athletic recovery and growth. What Forms of Protein Intake are Available? Today, we have four ways to get protein or amino acids into the bloodstream. Let’s review the list before we go on.

Whole Food Proteins: The oldest method for getting your daily dose of protein comes from Mother Nature. The protein sources in this group are supplied from intact or whole foods such as meat, fish, poultry, dairy products or vegetables. Not so long ago this was the only way to get protein into our diets until the advent of protein supplements, which are now readily available.

Protein Supplements: These supplements contain purified forms of native proteins such as Whey, Egg or Soy, with the degree of purification being quite different from product to product. The varying degrees of purification go from protein concentrates (lower grade) to isolates, which are much higher in quality. In any case most protein supplements are usually low in fat and add only moderate amounts of carbohydrate, a welcome feature for athletes who want to stay lean.

Free Form Amino Acids: Due to their unique properties, the use of pharmaceutical grade (pure and sterile) free form amino acids to support muscle repair and growth would work best by being injected into the bloodstream. Feeding people this way is called parental feeding, or total parental nutrition (TPN). TPN was a great medical advances because it feeds people whom otherwise could not eat. Most of the scientific research done on free amino acids has revealed that they work best taken on an empty stomach. When free amino acids are taken without interference from other proteins they can be utilized to elicit specific responses.

Protein Hydrolysates: Protein can be hydrolyzed (broken into smaller pieces) by enzymes, producing small chains of amino acids called peptides. This process mimics our own digestive actions thus making it an ideal way to process protein. Keep in mind that protein quality must always be considered regardless of which form is ingested. Also, one can mix all of the forms together in unlimited ways. Table One gives some pros and cons for each form of getting amino acids into the bloodstream.


Step One: How is Protein Absorbed, Really?

Scientists and doctors realized in the late 60s and early 70s that protein is not completely broken down to single (free) amino acids inside the small intestine (gut), and then the single amino acids absorbed by the gut and simply transferred to the bloodstream. Rather, proteins are chopped into small pieces in the stomach and gut by acid and enzymes. When the pieces get between four and six amino acids long (small Oligopeptides), enzymes on the surface of gut cells quickly chop them up into even smaller peptides (either two or three amino acids long) and single amino acids. These little pieces (one, two or three amino acids long) are taken inside gut cells. Anything larger simply does not get into gut cells in significant amounts. The pieces that are two amino acids long (dipeptides) and three amino acids long (tripeptides) are then chopped into single amino acids inside the gut cells by hordes of enzymes. Chopping di- and tripeptides into single amino acids is practically instantaneous after being taken up into gut cells. The single amino acids are then rapidly dumped into the bloodstream.


The Magic of Small Peptides

Is there any evidence that hydrolysates (peptides) are better than food proteins or intact proteins for getting amino acids into the bloodstream? Yes, so much so that it is now considered dogma. Hospitals routinely use hydrolysate products from pharmaceutical companies as the primary amino acid source for feeding patients in hospitals. A large and consistent body of literature has shown that at higher levels of total amino acid intake (obviously bodybuilders are at the high end) hydrolysates are absorbed faster than either intact proteins or free form amino acids. Usually hydrolysates get into the bloodstream about twice as fast as intact proteins or free form amino acid mixtures in normal humans. This coincides perfectly with the subway turnstile analogy.

Let's skip the animal and hospitalized human studies, and look at research that more closely applies to bodybuilders. Ten years ago, Grimble and coworkers from the Department of Gastroenterology and nutrition in Central Middlesex Hospital in London, United Kingdom, looked at absorption of amino acids from intact egg protein and different degrees of hydrolysis in 12 normal humans. Best uptake came from the hydrolysates richest in di-and tripeptides. These results clearly show that a small peptide hydrolysate is preferred to a partial hydrolysate or intact protein for getting amino acids into the bloodstream faster in humans.A recent study by Collin-Vidal from the Human Nutrition Laboratory of the University of Clermont at Auvergne in France fed 12 normal volunteers either carbohydrates / lipids alone or with whole casein or casein peptides continuously by a nasogastric tube. Leucine metabolism was measured as a marker of protein metabolism by a leucine tracer. Similar to bodybuilders, these subjects were in positive leucine balance and were already eating a high intake of leucine. Subjects showed higher leucine levels in the bloodstream; more protein synthesis and more leucine oxidation with the hydrolysate, indicating more leucine got into muscles and other tissues. Since the subjects were not exercising, extra leucine was broken down (oxidized for energy) instead of being used to build muscle. The moral of the story is that if these subjects were exercising, then more of the leucine would have been targeted to building muscle and not broken down. The net result is that more leucine got to tissues (including muscles) with the hydrolysate.An overwhelming amount of literature has reported the superiority of hydrolysates over equivalent compositions of free form amino acids for getting amino acids into the bloodstream faster. As an example, a report by Silk from Middlesex Hospital in London using normal humans will be examined. First, absorption of amino acids was greater from hydrolysates of casein or lactalbumin (whey) than from equivalent free form amino acid mixtures. In fact 11 out of 16 amino acids measured where absorbed significantly better, including leucine, valine and glutamine. In fact, glutamine absorption was doubled by hydrolysates.Also of importance is the quantitative or total amount of amino acids getting into the bloodstream. Figure 2 shows how a fish protein hydrolysate got more amino acids into the bloodstream faster than an equivalent free form amino acid mixture again, the importance of this fact will be seen later in this article.Another important point is that hydrolysates can get more amino acids into the bloodstream faster into normal, healthy volunteers than an equivalent free form amino acid mixture when intakes are high. What does this mean in real life? According to a study by Hegarty from St. Bartholomew’s hospital in London, England, whey protein hydrolysate (lactalbumin) and an identical composition of free form amino acids were equivalent in uptake until 12 grams of total amino acids were given. Over 12 grams of intake, uptake of every amino acid from the hydrolysate was equal to or superior to the free form amino acid mixture. Again, a doubling of glutamine uptake was found. This is very important for bodybuilders, because 12 grams is a measly amount of amino acids compared to typical intakes of 50 grams of amino acids per meal. Thus, at high intakes of protein, hydrolysates get absorbed better than intact proteins or free form amino acid mixtures.It is easy to relate these results to real life. Free form amino acid receptors on gut cells can keep up with peptide receptors until a certain level of total amino acids are reached (about 12 grams per feeding), then the subway turnstile effect comes into play for hydrolysates, showing their superiority for amino acid absorption at real-life levels of supplementation.

Anssi Manninen
05-02-2006, 05:49 PM
The Story Continues...


Why is Faster Amino Acid Absorption Better for Bodybuilders?

Why all the fuss about getting more amino acids into the bloodstream faster? The answer is simple - more amino acids in the bloodstream (especially with insulin) means more amino acids in muscle means more muscle protein synthesis means more growth/recovery/repair. We already know that protein needs of weightlifters are double those of other athletes and sedentary people. We also know that after lifting weights, amino acid transports protein synthesis and protein breakdowns (catabolism) are all increased in muscles.

We also know that amino acids, not carbohydrates, fat or insulin, are responsible for increased anabolism (more protein synthesis and less protein breakdown) in humans after eating. In other words, muscles are hungry for amino acids, which they can only get from the bloodstream, right after a workout (within 30 minutes). This happens to be the window where hydrolysates are superior to proteins or free form amino acid mixtures.Before we get too focused on protein, keep in mind that right after a weight-training workout; a combination of protein and carbohydrate outperformed both protein alone and carbohydrate alone for increasing insulin and growth hormone levels. Thus, even an ideal hydrolysate would have better effects when consumed with simple carbohydrates since carbohydrates are absorbed by different receptors on gut cells, there is little or no competition with amino acids and peptides for absorption.

Why Rapid Glutamine Uptake by Hydrolysates is so Important?

Muscle cell content of glutamine is now thought to be the major influence on muscle protein synthesis. In other words, more muscle glutamine, more muscle protein synthesis, more muscle. Research clearly shows that feeding small peptide hydrolysates compared to amino acid mixtures and intact proteins dramatically raises glutamine levels in the bloodstream. Supplying glutamine may indirectly prevent the immune system, gut and brain (other major users of glutamine) from signaling muscles to break down protein to feed them. Net result is more glutamine for muscles.

Fortunately, a glutamine peptide has been developed commercially that is 30% glutamine in the form of small peptides, which we now know are better absorbed than an equal amount of free glutamine. Derived from wheat gluten, glutamine peptide is hydrolyzed sufficiently to virtually remove any possible antigenicity, a typical advantage of hydrolysates over intact proteins. Thus, getting glutamine to muscles has never been easier.


What an Ideal protein (amino acid) Supplement should look like?

Why not cut to the chase and sell a mixture of 20% free form amino acids, 80 % di- and tripeptides, just like our gut absorbs? This type of hydrolysate is recently available in commercial amounts, and is being used in medical situations, mostly via nasogastric tube feedings. Wouldn’t this be an ideal supplement? No, for several real-life reasons. One is cost. A serving (25 grams of amino acids) would have a raw material cost (before packaging, shipping and profit) of $3-5. Second, it would taste really terrible [This view is no longer valid], a fact which is no problem if you have a nasogastric tube, but a big, real-life problem if you have to eat the stuff every day. Flavoring is essential for compliance. Third, you actually want some carbohydrate, as discussed earlier (this also helps the taste). Fourth, small peptides (up to six amino acids long) are just are effective as di- and tripeptides because of gut cell membrane (brush border) oligopeptidases. Fifth, intact proteins help flavor stability and mixability (when instantized or agglomerated), and still have potent anabolic effects on protein synthesis.

A product profile of an ideal source of amino acids for feeding muscles after workouts should look like this:

Over 50% of total amino acids from small peptides (hydrolysates)

Rich-quality protein and hydrolysate sources (whey, casein, egg, soy all qualify)

glutamine rich (preferably from glutamine peptide)

Some high glycemic carbohydrate (maltodextrin, glucose)

Creatine and other single amino acids are optional

Good dispersability with a spoon or shaking for easy mixing and portability

Low viscosity and good flavoring for long-term use and compliance

Advantages of such a product are more than supplying the most important amino acids most efficiently to hungry muscles.

Hidden advantages include being able to ingest the supplement immediately after a grueling workout without getting bloated, and not suppressing appetite so you can eat a full meal sooner after ingesting the ideal protein supplement.There is no question that protein (amino acids) is the single most important nutrient for muscular hypertrophy it is clear that efficient delivery of amino acids to muscles as soon as possible after workouts improves the anabolic hormonal milieu, muscle protein synthesis, and reduces muscle catabolism. All these effects are part of the normal response to resistance training.In the quest for the ultimate protein, consumers have been bombarded with choices, hype and hearsay. Why not give the body what it has already told us it needs, as verified by scientific studies in normal humans and weightlifters? This means a supplement rich in small peptides (over 50%) from high-quality protein sources, with emphasis on glutamine peptides, combined with some carbohydrate and made practical by easy mixability and good flavor.

PS. Luke is a former Director of Research/Weider Nutrition International.

rcramden
05-02-2006, 06:04 PM
i contacted bioquest and they said that the estimated release date is beginning of July but they said the price is to b determined. i'm really anxious to maximize my gains so i can be in better shape for the summer and was wondering if you know of any other comparable products out there i could use in the meantime?

ps; i tried anater and it seemed decent but i just can't afford it.

Anssi Manninen
05-02-2006, 06:28 PM
...they said that the estimated release date is beginning of July

What the heck takes so long..? Those lazy bastard.. :D

Anssi Manninen
05-02-2006, 06:40 PM
was wondering if you know of any other comparable products out there i could use in the meantime?

There are no comparable products, but there are some decent post-exercise reco boosters.. I will post some kind of list later..

Joel
05-02-2006, 06:54 PM
I can't say that I have but I like the idea of a self-heating can . . . I would be tempted to try one just to see how/if the can works. However I don't think I will buy 12 cans for $60 just to see if the can heats itself ;)


Someone reviewed one of those they got from the Arnold ...cant remember who it was but they said it was junk , the can left a burn stain on their table

They posted pics too

warriors
05-02-2006, 07:02 PM
Someone reviewed one of those they got from the Arnold ...cant remember who it was but they said it was junk , the can left a burn stain on their table

They posted pics too


It was bigpoppaproppy that left that review. It didnt look too good that's for sure judging by the pics he posted.

Anssi Manninen
05-02-2006, 07:04 PM
the can left a burn stain on their table

hah hah :D

Joel
05-02-2006, 07:25 PM
It was bigpoppaproppy that left that review. It didnt look too good that's for sure judging by the pics he posted.


yeah, thanks and I agree

he definitely did not recommend it

Anssi Manninen
05-02-2006, 07:34 PM
PS. Luke is a former Director of Research/Weider Nutrition International.

Do guys remember that Weider´s Metaform brand? They sold a product containing high-degree whey hydro + some glutamine peptides + creatine + carbs but they discontinued it pretty soon... It was simply too expensive. Obviously, a mass market consumers cannot see the difference.

Anssi Manninen
05-02-2006, 07:40 PM
I think it was this product:
http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/DOCKETS/97s0162/let3480.pdf

JayLS1-327
05-03-2006, 08:20 AM
There are no comparable products, but there are some decent post-exercise reco boosters.. I will post some kind of list later..

Great, I'm looking forward to the list.

Anssi Manninen
05-03-2006, 11:11 AM
I will post it tommorow.. too busy...I have to finish two articles...

Anssi Manninen
05-03-2006, 03:01 PM
any idea how much and when can i order some?

BioQuest told me today that MYoZene will be available June.

Anssi Manninen
05-03-2006, 03:03 PM
Someone asked about aspartame. BioQuest: "It will be sucralose. We don't use any aspartame in our products."

Anssi Manninen
05-03-2006, 06:51 PM
Well, I just got the initial estimation of MyoZene retail price. It is pretty expensive stuff; roughly 48 bucks for ~12 servings.

Jsorb8997
05-03-2006, 06:53 PM
Well, I just got he initial estimation of MyoZene retail price. It is pretty expensive stuff; roughly 48 bucks for ~12 servings.

No thanks!

rcramden
05-03-2006, 08:31 PM
that is a bargain next to anator!(plus i'm sure bb.com will have it for alot less than $48) and this sounds like it might be a better product for less money so i'll definitely try it when it comes out. They did tell me July 4th is the official release date but they told you june? WTF! they not want my order!

Anssi Manninen
05-04-2006, 03:32 AM
How much Anator cost..? Btw, MyoZene is superior to Anator; a more comprehensive formula and superior source of protein.

deserusan
05-04-2006, 03:34 AM
How much Anator cost..? Btw, MyoZene is superior to Anator; a more comprehensive formula and superior source of protein.

Anator is about $60 for 16 servings.

Anssi Manninen
05-04-2006, 03:35 AM
Anator is about $60 for 16 servings.

Pretty damn expensive :O Is the container made from silver..? :)

UberBerzerker
05-04-2006, 05:58 AM
Pretty damn expensive :O Is the container made from silver..? :)

Maybe it is, but that would make your container made out of.....platinum?

You're saying that your product @ $48 for 12 servings isn't expensive, but $60 for 16 servings is?

you know that subject called math?

here goes:
48/12 = 4 per
60/16 = 3.75


uh oh! MT Wins out per serving. :eek:

:D

Slated
05-04-2006, 06:01 AM
But can the two be stacked ?!?!?!

:eek:

Anssi Manninen
05-04-2006, 06:04 AM
Maybe it is, but that would make your container made out of.....platinum?

You're saying that your product @ $48 for 12 servings isn't expensive, but $60 for 16 servings is?

you know that subject called math?

here goes:
48/12 = 4 per
60/16 = 3.75


uh oh! MT Wins out per serving. :eek:

:D

Its BQ´s product.

Also, Anator´s price was not suggested retail price (according to the bb.com store its about 90 bucks).

Anssi Manninen
05-04-2006, 06:06 AM
You're saying that your product @ $48 for 12 servings isn't expensive

So, you cant read, huh? I just said "It [MyoZene] is pretty expensive stuff".

Also, you cannot directly compare 1 serving of MZ to 1 serving of Ana, because MZ contains glutamine peptides, KIC, taurine, micronutrients, etc.

Slated
05-04-2006, 06:06 AM
In all reality, if 48 is the suggested retail. It's likely we'll see it at around 35ish

RobW
05-04-2006, 06:07 AM
Maybe it is, but that would make your container made out of.....platinum?

You're saying that your product @ $48 for 12 servings isn't expensive, but $60 for 16 servings is?

you know that subject called math?

here goes:
48/12 = 4 per
60/16 = 3.75


uh oh! MT Wins out per serving. :eek:

:D

Anssi does not work for the company making MyoZeen (BTW, lame name, to name ANY protein Myo....way lame, why not just call it MyoPlux), he works for MD...

Plus the $60 for Anator is the discounted price the full retail is $89.99...

Anssi Manninen
05-04-2006, 07:18 AM
In all reality, if 48 is the suggested retail. It's likely we'll see it at around 35ish

Yeah..something like that..

UberBerzerker
05-04-2006, 07:23 AM
So, you cant read, huh? I just said "It [MyoZene] is pretty expensive stuff".

Also, you cannot directly compare 1 serving of MZ to 1 serving of Ana, because MZ contains glutamine peptides, KIC, taurine, micronutrients, etc.

funny part is, I actually don't really give a ****...



Anssi does not work for the company making MyoZeen (BTW, lame name, to name ANY protein Myo....way lame, why not just call it MyoPlux), he works for MD...

Plus the $60 for Anator is the discounted price the full retail is $89.99...

he's obviously a pimp for them...;)

Anssi Manninen
05-04-2006, 07:31 AM
funny part is, I actually don't really give a ****..

Well.. then.. how about if you simply shut the f@@k up? :)

rcramden
05-05-2006, 06:46 AM
this looks like a really interesting product...especially if i can get it for under 40bucks. any idea how it tastes?

UberBerzerker
05-05-2006, 07:04 AM
Well.. then.. how about if you simply shut the f@@k up? :)

doubtful

Anssi Manninen
05-05-2006, 07:17 AM
doubtful

:)

Anssi Manninen
05-05-2006, 07:19 AM
this looks like a really interesting product...especially if i can get it for under 40bucks. any idea how it tastes?

BioQuest Labs is working with outside flavor experts right now... so, I´m pretty sure it will taste pretty damn good.. :)

rcramden
05-07-2006, 05:33 PM
BioQuest Labs is working with outside flavor experts right now... so, I´m pretty sure it will taste pretty damn good.. :)

isn't it true that the higher quality hydrolised whey proteins taste nasty? someone told me thats how you can tell if its a good product or not. if it tastes good then it is probably just regular whey.

Anssi Manninen
05-08-2006, 11:56 AM
isn't it true that the higher quality hydrolised whey proteins taste nasty? someone told me thats how you can tell if its a good product or not. if it tastes good then it is probably just regular whey.

MyoZene utilizes new debitterized whey protein hydro with a very high degree of hydrolysis.

Slated
05-08-2006, 12:06 PM
I couldn't help but notice you have your own personal forum on the ********* site (competitor of bb.com)

********* owns Bioquest

This put up a red flag for me

nothing personal bro, but is this going to be carried by BB.com, cause if not, this isn't cool

UberBerzerker
05-08-2006, 12:10 PM
I couldn't help but notice you have your own personal forum on the ********* site (competitor of bb.com)

********* owns Bioquest

This put up a red flag for me







he's obviously a pimp for them...;)


;):D

tee hee

Anssi Manninen
05-08-2006, 12:20 PM
I couldn't help but notice you have your own personal forum on the ********* site (competitor of bb.com)

So?

Anssi Manninen
05-08-2006, 12:25 PM
but is this going to be carried by BB.com, cause if not, this isn't cool

BB.com sells other BioQuest product so I dont see any reason why they dont want to carry MyoZene..

Anssi Manninen
05-08-2006, 12:26 PM
********* owns Bioquest

I think it is other way around.

rcramden
05-08-2006, 07:41 PM
Anssi,
i just finally got my bodyfat down to sub15 (actually thanks in part to tetrazeene) and am concerned about putting on fat. how much carbs does this myozene product have? and should i be concerned about gaining fat from those?

Ps: thanks alot for all the good info on this and other supplements you've provided...your column in MD rules!

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 01:37 AM
MZ contains about 60 grams. There´s nothing wrong with some high-glycemic carbs before, durind and/or after _rigorous_ exercise. However, you certainly do NOT need high-glycemic carbs after light cardio. Also, such products should not be used as "weight gainers". Old-school weight gainers loaded with maltodextrine/dextrose/fructose are absolutely useless. They are nothing but fat gainers.

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 03:11 AM
thanks alot for all the good info on this and other supplements you've provided..

Actually I havent provided any supplements...

Slated
05-09-2006, 06:38 AM
I couldn't help but notice you have your own personal forum on the ********* site (competitor of bb.com)

********* owns Bioquest

This put up a red flag for me

BB.com sells other BioQuest product so I dont see any reason why they dont want to carry MyoZene..
This isn't the only thread you're making these big myozene threads on, and you're continuously bumping them.

I realize that ********* now 'allows' other retailers to sell its products, but it still appears that you are pushing it a bit much for someone who originally stated they don't have any info on the product, and am not affiliated.

Does PS pay you or compensate you in ANY way for having that forum on their site?

jdiritto
05-09-2006, 06:45 AM
IMO 50+ $ for 15 servings or so is a rip off on almost anything..

there are certain narcotics I would gladly pay 50$ for 15 servings of...and that is going with the 'black market tax' on things as well!!!

course, im in college and rather frugal with $

Slated
05-09-2006, 06:54 AM
rcramden,

A search of every single one of your posts shows:

approx 65% of your posts are having to do with

-Pros being at PS retail events

-Your Bioquest Log

-You commenting on other Bioquest/PSproducts

-Posts on the PS web forum

-PS knocking certain products

-PS's 'highly biased' supplement guide

Are the rest of the posts just to make us believe you aren't affiliated as well?

Slated
05-09-2006, 07:03 AM
This isn't the only thread you're making these big myozene threads on, and you're continuously bumping them.

I realize that ********* now 'allows' other retailers to sell its products, but it still appears that you are pushing it a bit much for someone who originally stated they don't have any info on the product, and am not affiliated.

Does PS pay you or compensate you in ANY way for having that forum on their site?
bringing to the next page for comment

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 07:34 AM
Does PS pay you or compensate you in ANY way for having that forum on their site?[/b]

No. In fact, I asked them to remove "my forum". Happy now..? :)

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 07:36 AM
It is rather weird that you are attacking me.. given the fact that you are a official ErgoPharm Pimp, a company who sells a non-approved drug as a dietary supplements.

PS. Simply ask bb.com to remove this thread if you have so hard time swallowing it..

Slated
05-09-2006, 07:36 AM
I've been a member here since 2001 in one way or another, and I guess you could say I'm very protective of my 'family'.

Simple as that

I was asked to be an Ergo rep

I will always be a BB.com member first

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 07:42 AM
Slated,

I will now start to evaluate every single statement you have made regarding ErgoPham products so we will see how "objective" you really are...

Slated
05-09-2006, 07:43 AM
fair is fair

:)

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 07:44 AM
I will always be a BB.com member first

If so, then tell people that they should not use AMP whatsoever, and it is illegal to sell such a product.

UberBerzerker
05-09-2006, 07:47 AM
Slated,

I will now start to evaluate every single statement you have made regarding ErgoPham products so we will see how "objective" you really are...

you won't have to do that. He admits, and openly acknowledges, that he is an official ergopharm 'pimp' rather than trying to pretend he's hardly affiliated with the company that makes the products he is talking up ;)

Slated
05-09-2006, 07:49 AM
If so, then tell people that they should not use AMP whatsoever, and it is illegal to sell such a product.
Why would I? I love AMP.

Anything I like, I promote, like Xtend...

nni
05-09-2006, 07:51 AM
If so, then tell people that they should not use AMP whatsoever, and it is illegal to sell such a product.

and why is that? because you didn't write a review of it? or because some irresponsible journalist wrote an article for her own gain?

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 07:52 AM
Why would I? I love AMP.

Anything I like, I promote, like Xtend...

Of course, pseudoscience quacks like you dont have a clue why people should not use such a "dietary supplement".

I´m pretty sure you love crack too..

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 07:53 AM
and why is that? because you didn't write a review of it? or because some irresponsible journalist wrote an article for her own gain?

Because it is NOT a dietary supplement, nor it is safe.

nni
05-09-2006, 07:55 AM
Because it is NOT a dietary supplement, nor it is safe.

the article claims it is found in nature, and claims that it is on par with ephedra. the ephedra comparison is how shipley tried to damn the product itself. is it through her reporting that you are basing your opinion?

Slated
05-09-2006, 07:56 AM
I´m pretty sure you love crack too..
mmmmmmm crack :)

you're becoming laughable with arguements/statements like that

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 07:57 AM
the article claims it is found in nature, and claims that it is on par with ephedra. the ephedra comparison is how shipley tried to damn the product itself. is it through her reporting that you are basing your opinion?

I didnt even bother to read the full article.

UberBerzerker
05-09-2006, 07:58 AM
Because it is NOT a dietary supplement, nor it is safe.

why not? what can it do to me, what can it cause?

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 08:00 AM
mmmmmmm crack :)

you're becoming laughable with arguements/statements like that

I didnt remember to include smiley. Whatever the case, I´m not sure if you are qualified to give any kind of medical advise (when and where you received some kind of medical training?). Nevertheless, you are pushing a ILLEGAL drug sold as a dietary supplement yet you attacking me for pushing MZ, huh? :)

nni
05-09-2006, 08:01 AM
I didnt even bother to read the full article.

then where did your statement come from. im sorry if i seem to be attacking you (really bad mood) but for someone of your position to claim something is dangerous, which no information other than a partially read article is very irresponsible. whether you want to or not, you represent your magazine and your articles. if someone were to attack myozene with no information, you would be quick to set them straight, and you are doing this to ergopharm right now.

TE
05-09-2006, 08:02 AM
I didnt even bother to read the full article.
and yet you to liken it to crack?

nni
05-09-2006, 08:04 AM
Nevertheless, you are pushing a ILLEGAL drug sold as a dietary supplement yet you attacking me for pushing MZ, huh? :)

again where are you getting this from? read the whole article and get through amy's bias and read the real information. it is a substance found in oils which documentation was provided to the post, it is also compared to ephedra which amy points out falsley that it is banned, which we know it is not, at least not in a blanket sense in which she implicates.

i suggest you read before you throw around accusations like that.

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 08:04 AM
then where did your statement come from.

Never heard about scientific literature???

Also, if someone wants to attack MyoZene, go for it. It is NOT my job to defend it.

nni
05-09-2006, 08:06 AM
Never heard about scientific literature???

Also, if someone wants to attack MyoZene, go for it. It is NOT my job to defend it.

then please show me this literature. that is a very volitile statement which i hope you can back up.

i understand it isnt your job, but you did a fine job of letting this board know about it, and you did defend anator after you wrote an article, so don't stand down now.

Twin Peak
05-09-2006, 08:07 AM
Someone pass the popcorn.

UberBerzerker
05-09-2006, 08:08 AM
then please show me this literature. that is a very volitile statement which i hope you can back up.

i understand it isnt your job, but you did a fine job of letting this board know about it, and you did defend anator after you wrote an article, so don't stand down now.

it's amazing how quickly some peoples defensive mechanism turns into surrender....

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 08:09 AM
then please show me this literature. that is a very volitile statement which i hope you can back up.

I can back up all my statements. However, I´m not your free consultant, so I dont need to send you copies of related articles.

nni
05-09-2006, 08:09 AM
Someone pass the popcorn.

yesterday i found a site that sells high protein popcorn, perfect for these events.

nni
05-09-2006, 08:12 AM
I can back up all my statements. However, I´m not your free consultant, so I dont need to send you copies of related articles.

can your dad also beat up my dad?

that sounds like zero evidence to me, otherwise you would post some. or you would have made this public well before someone associated with them questioned your motives.

bottom line, if a person makes a statement, they need to back it up, especially when they accuse a company of violating the law.

you did not, or will not back it up, which over the internet usually equates to no evidence.

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 08:12 AM
i understand it isnt your job, but you did a fine job of letting this board know about it, and you did defend anator after you wrote an article, so don't stand down now.

I defended my article, rather than Anator per se. In other words, I just wanted to stand behind my article. You see, someone here claimed that I have some kind of financial relationship with MuscleTech. That was pure BS. The reality is that I have not received a single dollar from MT. The next MD issue will feature NxCare Methyl Ripped, so I will tell you right now that I havent received a single dollar from them either. It seems to me that the companies who dont get their product featured in MD are the ones who dont like it..

TE
05-09-2006, 08:19 AM
I defended my article, rather than Anator per se. In other words, I just wanted to stand behind my article.
Then how about standing behind your internet post & give us some evidence?

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 08:22 AM
Then how about standing behind your internet post & give us some evidence?

Evidence on what? Regarding AMP..?

TE
05-09-2006, 08:23 AM
Evidence on what? Regarding AMP..?
Yes.

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 08:24 AM
Well, how about if you simply contact the FDA. They will tell you the facts.

nni
05-09-2006, 08:24 AM
I defended my article, rather than Anator per se. In other words, I just wanted to stand behind my article. You see, someone here claimed that I have some kind of financial relationship with MuscleTech. That was pure BS. The reality is that I have not received a single dollar from MT. The next MD issue will feature NxCare Methyl Ripped, so I will tell you right now that I havent received a single dollar from them either. It seems to me that the companies who dont get their product featured in MD are the ones who dont like it..

im just a consumer who wants to know how and why amp is dangerous. which you seem to hold the answers. you could elaborate. but you havent.


Well, how about if you simply contact the FDA. They will tell you the facts.

the fda didnt just make the claim you did. you wouldnt write an article without citing references, yet you made a claim here that would no doubt be to inlfammatory for print, and yet offer no evidence.

think of the lives you could be saving.

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 08:28 AM
the fda didnt just make the claim you did. you wouldnt write an article without citing references, yet you made a claim here that would no doubt be to inlfammatory for print, and yet offer no evidence.

think of the lives you could be saving.

How do you know? Did you already contacted them? Well, its my job to investigate that kind of stuff..

nni
05-09-2006, 08:32 AM
How do you know? Did you already contacted them? Well, its my job to investigate that kind of stuff..

last i saw the fda didnt post in this thread.

your good at dancing though, as you have offered nothing but evasive posts.

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 08:36 AM
last i saw the fda didnt post in this thread.

your good at dancing though, as you have offered nothing but evasive posts.

Why you dont send an email to the FDA? Do you have some kind of financial relatioship with AMP makers..?

nni
05-09-2006, 08:39 AM
Why you dont send an email to the FDA? Do you have some kind of financial relatioship with AMP makers..?

no, do you fear posting information to back up your statements?

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 08:42 AM
no, do you fear posting information to back up your statements?

No. But I dont distribute any emails unless I have asked permission to do so. Contact the FDA.

nni
05-09-2006, 08:46 AM
No. But I dont distribute any emails unless I have asked permission to do so. Contact the FDA.

no, i will not contact the fda, you made the statement and should back it up with the information you have (being as amp's true ingredient is more or less secret, i wonder how much information you truly have). i will however know that you will not backup statements that you make, so i will know what to take from the information that you provide from here on out.

bottom line, when someone questions your motives, you attack them, question their motives (financial) right back and provide nothing to back your statements other than the juvenille "contact the fda".

but thanks for making my morning entertaining.

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 08:49 AM
no, i will not contact the fda, you made the statement and should back it up with the information you have (being as amp's true ingredient is more or less secret, i wonder how much information you truly have). i will however know that you will not backup statements that you make, so i will know what to take from the information that you provide from here on out.

bottom line, when someone questions your motives, you attack them, question their motives (financial) right back and provide nothing to back your statements other than the juvenille "contact the fda".

but thanks for making my morning entertaining.

I stand behind my statements. And if ErgoPharm guys disagree, I´m pretty sure their lawyer will contact me very soon (but I doubt it).

nni
05-09-2006, 08:51 AM
I stand behind my statements. And if ErgoPharm guys disagree, I´m pretty sure their lawyer will contact me very soon (but I doubt it).

sure.

i know muscular development is in violation of child labor laws. i have paperwork, but instead of providing it, you should contact the department of labor.

i stand behind my statement!





sounds silly doesnt it.

TE
05-09-2006, 08:52 AM
I stand behind my statements.
Happy to hear it, but without evidence, your product claims mean nothing to me.

Slated
05-09-2006, 08:54 AM
I stand behind my statements. And if ErgoPharm guys disagree, I´m pretty sure their lawyer will contact me very soon (but I doubt it).
I don't know why you are dragging in ergopharm.

This has nothing to do with them, as you are just using them as a diversionary tactic.

I am not an employee of Ergopharm. I merely am a questions answerer of their product. At this time however, there are questions I must disregard.

You have done a great job of changing the subject from my original statement.

I was not trying to attack you, but I felt there needed to be some clarification on motives, as well as that other guys post history.

TE
05-09-2006, 08:54 AM
sure.

i know muscular development is in violation of child labor laws. i have paperwork, but instead of providing it, you should contact the department of labor.

i stand behind my statement!





sounds silly doesnt it.
Precisely, why should we jump through hoops to disprove, or verify, an un-backed accusation that you've made?

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 08:58 AM
Precisely, why should we jump through hoops to disprove, or verify, an un-backed accusation that you've made?

A very good Q. Well, you dont need verify or disprove any of my statements.

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 09:00 AM
I don't know why you are dragging in ergopharm.

This has nothing to do with them, as you are just using them as a diversionary tactic. .

If you attack me (without valid reason) as an ErgoPharm rep, it has everything to do with ErgoPharm.

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 09:02 AM
Diversionary tactic..? Huh, I have answered all your Qs.. :) I have nothing to hide.

nni
05-09-2006, 09:07 AM
Diversionary tactic..? Huh, I have answered all your Qs.. :) I have nothing to hide.

i asked you to provide me with your proof. you danced.

let it drop, you did not come out good in this argument.

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 09:09 AM
You apparently work for ErgoPharm, since you defend the product so rigorously (not only in this thread..).

I´m not your FREE consultant. But I should make copies of my articles and send them to you. WTF?!

UberBerzerker
05-09-2006, 09:12 AM
You apparently work for ErgoPharm, since you defend the product so rigorously (not only in this thread..).

I´m not your FREE consultant. So, I should make copies of my articles and send them to you. WTF?!

ah yeah, rule number 3 of e-arguing. If you can't back up your statements, or prove your theory, make wild accusations of the other pary involved in an attempt to discredit them ;)


lol

Slated
05-09-2006, 09:13 AM
As I already stated. I am not an employee of Ergopharm, I am just a questions answerer. Also, as I already stated, there are questions, at this time, I am unable to answer. My posts this morning were only made because of my love for bb.com, and unrelated to Ergo in every way, shape, and form.

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 09:13 AM
ah yeah, rule number 3 of e-arguing. If you can't back up your statements, or prove your theory, make wild accusations of the other pary involved in an attempt to discredit them ;)


lol

CONTACT THE FDA

nni
05-09-2006, 09:14 AM
You apparently work for ErgoPharm, since you defend the product so rigorously (not only in this thread..).

I´m not your FREE consultant. But I should make copies of my articles and send them to you. WTF?!

i do not work for, i am not sponsored by, i am not associated with ANY supplement or sports company. i work in the private sector completely unrelated to fitness.

i simply do not appreciate it when people who should know better make inflammatory statements and then not back them up.

seems all you do is accuse.

is that how muscular development runs their magazine? i mean other than viloating child labor laws of which i have prove but will not provide.

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 09:18 AM
iseems all you do is accuse. .

Well well, I think it was that ErgoPharm guy who started accusing.. :)

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 09:20 AM
As I already stated. I am not an employee of Ergopharm, I am just a questions answerer. Also, as I already stated, there are questions, at this time, I am unable to answer. My posts this morning were only made because of my love for bb.com, and unrelated to Ergo in every way, shape, and form.

How many of your accusations againts me went unanswered? I think zero. So, can I assume that the case in closed?

nni
05-09-2006, 09:22 AM
Well well, I think it was that ErgoPharm guy who started accusing.. :)

so that makes it ok to say that ergopharm is breaking the law, and then accuse me of a hidden agenda?

anssi, we used to be so close. i remember the picnic by the lake, can't we go back to that?

UberBerzerker
05-09-2006, 09:23 AM
CONTACT THE FDA

to ask them about nni working for ergopharm? how would they know this? ;)

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 09:24 AM
Hah.. :D

warriors
05-09-2006, 09:35 AM
How many of your accusations againts me went unanswered? I think zero. So, can I assume that the case in closed?


You still havent provided anything showing where Amp is so dangerous and why its not a legal dietary supplement and dont give me that "im not your consultant" bull**** either. If you had the evidence and really wanted to prove one of us wrong then you would post it up.

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 09:37 AM
You still havent provided anything showing where Amp is so dangerous and why its not a legal dietary supplement and dont give me that "im not your consultant" bull**** either. If you had the evidence and really wanted to prove one of us wrong then you would post it up.

I dont give a crap about AMP. So, I´m certainly not going to waste my time sending some documents.. Rather, tell me that I have faked some literature references for MD supp reviews and I will certainly send you the original articles.

TE
05-09-2006, 09:40 AM
I dont give a crap about AMP. So, I´m certainly not going to waste my time sending some documents..
So, I´m certainly not going to waste my time sending some fictitious documents...

nni
05-09-2006, 09:41 AM
So, I´m certainly not going to waste my time sending some fictitious documents...

he sent them to me....

<img src="http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/440000/images/_444519_secret150.jpg">

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 09:42 AM
Let me know your fax number.

carcinogen
05-09-2006, 10:36 AM
I can back up all my statements. However, I´m not your free consultant, so I dont need to send you copies of related articles.
no, you cant

nni
05-09-2006, 10:46 AM
no, you cant

rough couple days for you guys and this product.

give him your fax number, maybe he has something. (doubt it)

UberBerzerker
05-09-2006, 10:47 AM
I dont give a crap about AMP.


Well.. then.. how about if you simply shut the f@@k up? :)


muahahahahahaha!! :D



;)


you said it, not me!!:)

Anssi Manninen
05-09-2006, 06:37 PM
Does PS pay you or compensate you in ANY way for having that forum on their site?[/b]

My ********* forum was just removed. Hope you are happy now.. :)

PS. I NEVER got a single dollar (or products) for having that forum on the ********* site

Anssi Manninen
05-10-2006, 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by Lonny
"Now that you aren't sold on Phenylalanine anymore, do you take back some praise for that muscletech product a few months ago?"

My earlier response "Phenyalanine is not a bad ingredient at all. However, if a formula contains high-degree whey hydro, a large dose of added leucine, KIC. etc it will maximise insulin secretion anyway.. I guess."

Well well.. it now appears that Manninen dude was right :) Check that HUGE insulin response after co-ingestion of an insulinotropic protein hydro with added leucine + high-GI carbs compared to the high GI carbs only in healthy controls. 221 %?!

© 2006 American Society for Nutrition J. Nutr. 136:1294-1299, May 2006

Co-Ingestion of a Protein Hydrolysate with or without Additional Leucine Effectively Reduces Postprandial Blood Glucose Excursions in Type 2 Diabetic Men1
Ralph J. Manders*,2, René Koopman*, Wendy E. Sluijsmans*, Robin van den Berg**, Kees Verbeek**, Wim H. Saris*, Anton J. Wagenmakers and Luc J. van Loon*,

* Department of Human Biology and Department of Movement Sciences, Nutrition and Toxicology Research Institute Maastricht (NUTRIM), Maastricht University, 6200 MD Maastricht, the Netherlands; ** TNO Nutrition and Food Research, Department Analytical Sciences, 3704 HE Zeist, the Netherlands; and School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Birmingham, B15 2TT, UK

2 To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail: R.Manders@HB.unimaas.nl.

This study examined postprandial plasma insulin and glucose responses after co-ingestion of an insulinotropic protein (Pro) hydrolysate with and without additional free leucine with a single bolus of carbohydrate (Cho). Male patients with long-standing Type 2 diabetes (n = 10) and healthy controls (n = 10) participated in 3 trials in which plasma glucose, insulin, and amino acid responses were determined after the ingestion of beverages of different composition (Cho: 0.7 g/kg carbohydrate, Cho+Pro: 0.7 g/kg carbohydrate with 0.3 g/kg protein hydrolysate, or Cho+Pro+Leu: 0.7 g/kg carbohydrate, 0.3 g/kg protein hydrolysate and 0.1 g/kg free leucine). Plasma insulin responses [expressed as area under the curve (AUC)] were 141 and 204% greater in patients with Type 2 diabetes and 66 and 221% greater in the controls in the Cho+Pro and Cho+Pro+Leu trials, respectively, compared with those in the Cho trial (P < 0.05). The concomitant plasma glucose responses were 15 and 12% lower in the patients with Type 2 diabetes and 92 and 97% lower in the control group in the Cho+Pro and Cho+Pro+Leu trials, respectively, compared with those in the Cho trial (P < 0.05). Plasma leucine concentrations correlated with the insulin response in all subjects (r = 0.43, P < 0.001). We conclude that co-ingestion of a protein hydrolysate with or without additional free leucine strongly augments the insulin response after ingestion of a single bolus of carbohydrate, thereby significantly reducing postprandial blood glucose excursions in patients with long-standing Type 2 diabetes.

TE
05-10-2006, 03:09 PM
Impressive, now where's the proof to back up your AMP statement?

Not trying to hate, just looking for some solid evidence. I don't even take AMP, but I'd like to know whether or not I should consider it in the future.

Anssi Manninen
05-11-2006, 10:30 AM
You havent send me your fax number.

whitedevil74
05-11-2006, 11:13 AM
Simple question, is AMP dangerous or not. I don't exactly trust the FDA in what they regard as dangerous, i.e. ephedra ban. Based upon what you have seen is AMP safe for dietary purposes. By just giving an opinion you should also be protected legally, just don't state it as fact.

Anssi Manninen
05-11-2006, 11:24 AM
Lets put that AMP discussion to rest.

This thread is all about post-exercise (and pre-exercise) nutrition/supplementation.

whitedevil74
05-11-2006, 11:32 AM
Can I use AMP as part of my post/excercise nutrition regime? (Insert Smily face here)

Anssi Manninen
05-11-2006, 12:08 PM
AMP is hardly a useful post-exercise supplement.. :)

warriors
05-11-2006, 12:11 PM
So back on topic...Anssi do you know when the MyoZene product is going to be released?

Anssi Manninen
05-11-2006, 12:21 PM
Sorry.. I dont know.. Contact Bioquest:

Mailing Address
BioQuest Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
P.O. Box 1257
Wall, NJ 07719-1257

Phone Numbers
Call Toll-Free 7 Days a Week: 1-866-377-8378
Outside the U.S.: (732)292-4600
Fax #: (732) 292-3095

productquestions@nutraquest.net

UberBerzerker
05-11-2006, 12:25 PM
Lets put that AMP discussion to rest.

it would be put to rest if you backed up your statements, instead of coming out swinging with wild accusations about a product, and then hoisting the whtie flag when confronted about it. Just post the info you have and we'll leave it alone. I have a vested interest in this product as I have taken it and so has my wife. If it's done damage to my/her health in any way, I want to know about it. If you have evidence to this, I would appreciate if you would share it.

Lonny
05-11-2006, 12:25 PM
Sorry.. I dont know.. Contact Bioquest.


How much of an impact do you feel something like this or anator would have over a period of say 6 months, compared to something like a homeade concoction of Whey Concentrate, Dextrose/Malto, Creatine, Taurine, and BCAAs?

Anssi Manninen
05-11-2006, 12:53 PM
It is hard to estimate. However, there is a handful of guys using that **** tasting MyoZene prototype and they are reportedly getting very good results from it.

Anssi Manninen
05-11-2006, 06:44 PM
Originally Posted by Lonny
"Now that you aren't sold on Phenylalanine anymore, do you take back some praise for that muscletech product a few months ago?"

My earlier response "Phenyalanine is not a bad ingredient at all. However, if a formula contains high-degree whey hydro, a large dose of added leucine, KIC. etc it will maximise insulin secretion anyway.. I guess."

Well well.. it now appears that Manninen dude was right :) Check that HUGE insulin response after co-ingestion of an insulinotropic protein hydro with added leucine + high-GI carbs compared to the high GI carbs only in healthy controls. 221 %?!

© 2006 American Society for Nutrition J. Nutr. 136:1294-1299, May 2006

Co-Ingestion of a Protein Hydrolysate with or without Additional Leucine Effectively Reduces Postprandial Blood Glucose Excursions in Type 2 Diabetic Men1
Ralph J. Manders*,2, René Koopman*, Wendy E. Sluijsmans*, Robin van den Berg**, Kees Verbeek**, Wim H. Saris*, Anton J. Wagenmakers and Luc J. van Loon*,

* Department of Human Biology and Department of Movement Sciences, Nutrition and Toxicology Research Institute Maastricht (NUTRIM), Maastricht University, 6200 MD Maastricht, the Netherlands; ** TNO Nutrition and Food Research, Department Analytical Sciences, 3704 HE Zeist, the Netherlands; and School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Birmingham, B15 2TT, UK

2 To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail: R.Manders@HB.unimaas.nl.

This study examined postprandial plasma insulin and glucose responses after co-ingestion of an insulinotropic protein (Pro) hydrolysate with and without additional free leucine with a single bolus of carbohydrate (Cho). Male patients with long-standing Type 2 diabetes (n = 10) and healthy controls (n = 10) participated in 3 trials in which plasma glucose, insulin, and amino acid responses were determined after the ingestion of beverages of different composition (Cho: 0.7 g/kg carbohydrate, Cho+Pro: 0.7 g/kg carbohydrate with 0.3 g/kg protein hydrolysate, or Cho+Pro+Leu: 0.7 g/kg carbohydrate, 0.3 g/kg protein hydrolysate and 0.1 g/kg free leucine). Plasma insulin responses [expressed as area under the curve (AUC)] were 141 and 204% greater in patients with Type 2 diabetes and 66 and 221% greater in the controls in the Cho+Pro and Cho+Pro+Leu trials, respectively, compared with those in the Cho trial (P < 0.05). The concomitant plasma glucose responses were 15 and 12% lower in the patients with Type 2 diabetes and 92 and 97% lower in the control group in the Cho+Pro and Cho+Pro+Leu trials, respectively, compared with those in the Cho trial (P < 0.05). Plasma leucine concentrations correlated with the insulin response in all subjects (r = 0.43, P < 0.001). We conclude that co-ingestion of a protein hydrolysate with or without additional free leucine strongly augments the insulin response after ingestion of a single bolus of carbohydrate, thereby significantly reducing postprandial blood glucose excursions in patients with long-standing Type 2 diabetes.

This study is more relevant to post-exercise recovery drinks because it examined post-exercise insulin responses. Not surprisingly, a mixture of carbs + protein hydro + leucine was superior to carbs + protein hydro and carbs only.

Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2006 Feb;38(2):268-75. Related Articles, Links


Effects of increasing insulin secretion on acute postexercise blood glucose disposal.

Kaastra B, Manders RJ, Van Breda E, Kies A, Jeukendrup AE, Keizer HA, Kuipers H, Van Loon LJ.

Department of Human Biology, Nutrition and Toxicology Research Institute Maastricht (NUTRIM), Maastricht University, Maastricht, The Netherlands.

BACKGROUND: Coingestion of protein and/or free amino acids with carbohydrate has been reported to accelerate postexercise muscle glycogen synthesis due to an increase in the insulin response. PURPOSE: To determine the extent to which the combined ingestion of carbohydrate and a casein protein hydrolysate [rich in small peptides) with or without additional free leucine can increase insulin levels during postexercise recovery in endurance-trained athletes. To determine how this affects whole-body plasma glucose disposal during postexercise recovery. METHODS: Fourteen male athletes (age: 24.3 +/- 0.8 yr; VO2max: 62.9 +/- 1.4 mL.kg.min) were subjected to three randomized crossover trials in which they performed 2 h of exercise (55% Wmax). Thereafter, subjects were studied for 3.5 h during which they ingested carbohydrate (CHO: 0.8 g.kg.h), carbohydrate and a protein hydrolysate (CHO-PRO: 0.8 and 0.4 g.kg.h, respectively), or carbohydrate, a protein hydrolysate, and free leucine (CHO-PRO-LEU: 0.8, 0.4, and 0.1 g.kg.h, respectively) in a double-blind fashion. Continuous infusions with [6,6-H2] glucose were applied to quantify plasma glucose appearance (Ra) and disappearance rates (Rd). RESULTS: Plasma insulin responses were 108 +/- 17 and 190 +/- 33% greater in the CHO-PRO and CHO-PRO-LEU trial, respectively, compared with the CHO-trial (P < 0.01). Plasma glucose responses were lower in the CHO-PRO and CHO-PRO-LEU trial compared with the CHO-trial (35 +/- 5 and 42 +/- 11% lower, respectively; P < 0.01). Plasma glucose Ra and Rd were greater in the CHO versus the CHO-PRO and CHO-PRO-LEU trials (P < 0.05). Glucose Rd represented 100 +/- 0.03% of Ra in all trials. CONCLUSIONS: The combined ingestion of a protein hydrolysate and/or free leucine with carbohydrate (0.8 g.kg.h) substantially augments insulin secretion, but does not affect plasma glucose disposal during the first 3.5 h of postexercise recovery in trained athletes.

PMID: 16531895 [PubMed - in process]

Anssi Manninen
05-12-2006, 06:00 AM
J Strength Cond Res. 2006 May;20(2):284-91. Links


Effects of leucine and whey protein supplementation during eight weeks of unilateral resistance training.

Coburn JW, Housh DJ, Housh TJ, Malek MH, Beck TW, Cramer JT, Johnson GO, Donlin PE.

Department of Kinesiology, California State University, Fullerton, Fullerton, California 92834;

Coburn, J.W., D.J. Housh, T.J. Housh, M.H. Malek, T.W. Beck, J.T. Cramer, G.O. Johnson, and P.E. Donlin. Effects of leucine and whey protein supplementation during eight weeks of unilateral resistance training. J. Strength Cond. Res. 20(2): 284-291. 2006.-The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of resistance training in combination with a leucine and whey protein supplement or a carbohydrate placebo on strength and muscle cross-sectional area (CSA). Thirty-three men (mean age +/- SD = 22.4 +/- 2.4 years) were assigned to 1 of 3 groups: (1) supplementation group (SUPP), (2) placebo group (PL), or (3) control group (CON). The SUPP and PL performed unilateral training of the leg extensor muscles with the nondominant limb for 8 weeks. The strength of each limb, muscle CSA of the quadriceps femoris (QF), and body composition were assessed pretraining and posttraining. The results indicated significant increases in strength for both limbs in the SUPP but only the trained limb in the PL. The increase in strength for the trained limb of the SUPP was greater than that for the trained limb of the PL. There was no significant increase in strength for either limb in the CON. There were significant increases in the CSA of all muscles of the QF of the trained limb for the SUPP and PL, and of the vastus lateralis of the untrained limb for the SUPP. The increases in QF CSA did not differ between the SUPP and PL. No significant CSA changes were found for either limb in the CON. There were no significant changes in body composition for the SUPP, PL, or CON. The current findings suggest that leucine and whey protein supplementation may provide an ergogenic effect which enhances the acquisition of strength beyond that achieved with resistance training and a carbohydrate placebo.

PMID: 16686554 [PubMed - in process]

maxer
05-12-2006, 10:35 PM
Im pretty excited about this product. Good to have knowledgable people like Anssi on the board as well.

Anssi Manninen
05-13-2006, 02:38 AM
Im pretty excited about this product.

Well, I dont even want to tell you what kind of results the testers are getting from MyoZene protype.. you would simply think that I´m full of s--t :)

Anssi Manninen
05-13-2006, 04:05 AM
Cysteine supplementation appears to have some benefits for serious athletes. What? No, this was not just another MyoZene plug. MZ contains no cysteine :)

Pharmacol Res. 2006 Apr;53(4):386-90. Epub 2006 Mar 3. Related Articles, Links

The beneficial effect of l-cysteine supplementation on DNA oxidation induced by forced training.

Tsakiris S, Parthimos T, Parthimos N, Tsakiris T, Schulpis KH.

Department of Experimental Physiology, Medical School, University of Athens, P.O. Box 65257, GR-15401 Athens, Greece.

BACKGROUND: Forced training is closely implicated with free radicals production and indication of tissue damage as well as DNA oxidation. AIM: To investigate the effect of l-cysteine (l-cys) supplementation on DNA oxidative damage found in basketball players after forced training. SUBJECTS AND METHODS: Blood was obtained from 10 players pre-game (group A), post-game (group B) and after 1 month l-cys (0.5g24h(-1), orally) supplementation, pre- (group C) and post-training (group D). Total antioxidant status (TAS) and the biomarker of DNA oxidative damage 8-hydroxy-2-deoxyguanosine (8-OHdG) as well as creatine kinase (CK) and lactate dehydrogenase (LDH) were measured with commercial kits. RESULTS: TAS was increased in the groups with l-cys (group C and group D). Post-exercise 8-OHdG levels, CK and LDH were remarkably lower (0.16+/-0.03ngml(-1), 115+/-15Ul(-1), 417+/-90Ul(-1), respectively) in group D than those in group B (0.36+/-0.05ngml(-1), 286+/-12Ul(-1), 688+/-88Ul(-1), p<0.001, respectively). 8-OHdG levels were negatively correlated with TAS(r=-0.718, p<0.01) and positively with CK levels(r=0.590, p<0.01). CONLUSIONS: l-cys supplementation in basketball players may reduce DNA damage induced by training. The sulfur-containing amino acid may protect muscle cells "death" by increasing TAS and the cellular defense against oxidative stress.

PMID: 16517176 [PubMed - in process]

PS. Coburn whey-leucine study used relatively small doses: 20 g of whey protein + 6.2 grams of added leucine.

Anssi Manninen
05-13-2006, 04:11 AM
Leucine is a real superstar of amino acids:

Nutrition. 2006 May;22(5):520-7. Related Articles, Links


Effects of leucine supplementation on the body composition and protein status of rats submitted to food restriction.

Donato J Jr, Pedrosa RG, Cruzat VF, Pires IS, Tirapegui J.

Department of Food Science and Experimental Nutrition, Faculty of Pharmaceutical Sciences, University of Sao Paulo, Sao Paulo, Brazil.

OBJECTIVE: Acute administration of leucine has been shown to stimulate certain protein synthesis related anabolic processes. However, the effect of chronic leucine administration in a catabolic situation caused by food restriction (FR) has not been established. We therefore evaluated the effect of chronic leucine supplementation on the body composition and some indicators of protein nutritional status of rats submitted to FR. METHODS: Adult male Wistar rats were submitted to 50% FR for 6 weeks. The control group received the AIN-93M diet and the leucine group received the same diet supplemented with 5.91 g L-leucine/kg ration. We then determined carcass chemical composition, serum leptin, albumin and total protein concentrations, and protein, DNA and RNA concentrations in gastrocnemius muscle and liver. RESULTS: No difference in final body weight was observed between groups. However, the leucine group presented a lower amount of body fat (P < 0.05). Leptin concentration showed a directly proportional correlation with the amount of body fat (r = 0.88, P < 0.05), but no significant difference in serum leptin concentration was observed between groups (P = 0.08). Regarding protein nutritional status, liver protein concentration was higher in the leucine group (P < 0.05). In the gastrocnemius muscle, a higher RNA concentration (P < 0.05) and a tendency towards higher DNA concentration (P = 0.06) were observed in the leucine group. CONCLUSION: The results indicate that low-dose leucine supplementation increases body fat loss and improves liver protein status and the capacity of muscle protein synthesis in rats submitted to FR.

PMID: 16600817 [PubMed - in process]

PS. It is of some interest that many gym rats spend money on free form glutamine, which is largely waste of money:

European Journal of Applied Physiology
Publisher: Springer Berlin / Heidelberg
ISSN: 1439-6319 (Paper) 1439-6327 (Online)
DOI: 10.1007/s00421-001-0523-y
Issue: Volume 86, Number 2

Date: December 2001
Pages: 142 - 149
Effect of glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults


Darren G. Candow, Philip D. Chilibeck, Darren G. Burke, Shawn K. Davison, Truis Smith-Palmer

A1 College of Kinesiology, 105 Gymnasium Place, University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada, S7 N 5C2
A2 Department of Human Kinetics, St. Francis Xavier University, Antigonish, Nova Scotia, Canada, B2G 2W5
A3 Department of Chemistry, St. Francis Xavier University, Antigonish, Nova Scotia, Canada, B2G 2W5


Abstract:


Abstract. The purpose of this study was to assess the effect of oral glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults. A group of 31 subjects, aged 18-24 years, were randomly allocated to groups (double blind) to receive either glutamine (0.9 g·kg lean tissue mass-1·day-1; n=17) or a placebo (0.9 g maltodextrin·kg lean tissue mass-1·day-1; n=14) during 6 weeks of total body resistance training. Exercises were performed for four to five sets of 6-12 repetitions at intensities ranging from 60% to 90% 1 repetition maximum (1 RM). Before and after training, measurements were taken of 1 RM squat and bench press strength, peak knee extension torque (using an isokinetic dynamometer), lean tissue mass (dual energy X-ray absorptiometry) and muscle protein degradation (urinary 3-methylhistidine by high performance liquid chromatography). Repeated measures ANOVA showed that strength, torque, lean tissue mass and 3-methylhistidine increased with training (P<0.05), with no significant difference between groups. Both groups increased their 1 RM squat by approximately 30% and 1 RM bench press by approximately 14%. The glutamine group showed increases of 6% for knee extension torque, 2% for lean tissue mass and 41% for urinary levels of 3-methylhistidine. The placebo group increased knee extension torque by 5%, lean tissue mass by 1.7% and 3-methylhistidine by 56%. We conclude that glutamine supplementation during resistance training has no significant effect on muscle performance, body composition or muscle protein degradation in young healthy adults.

marqui678
05-13-2006, 05:08 AM
Of course, pseudoscience quacks like you dont have a clue why people should not use such a "dietary supplement".

I´m pretty sure you love crack too..

These psuedoscience quacks who take advantage of teenagers and the elderly, are the reason why supplements will be band soonier or later. The truth is, while some reps are genuine alot arent, they are here promote supplements that are backed by nothing other than hopes and promises, or if your lucky they may have a few studies post that really offer little proof if any. The bottom line here is MONEY, otherwise they wouldnt be on here pimping. There are quite a few companies whose sole buisness is derived from the chat boards, so its understandable, given numorous examples of previous bad behavior, that they are going try to bash anyone threatening thier existence. They will bash without regard to wether a product is soundly back by science, but out of fear they will lose money from thier "possibly dangerous" or "me too" products not being bought.

Anssi Manninen
05-13-2006, 05:22 AM
Actually I dont think Slated is a pseudo-science quack or pimp. I was simply pissed off when he started his attack againts me (without valid reasons).

marqui678
05-13-2006, 05:44 AM
Actually I dont think Slated is a pseudo-science quack or pimp. I was simply pissed off when he started his attack againts me (without valid reasons).

Specifilly, I am not refering to him, its more a general statement. Have a look in some luekic, anator or gakic threads and you'll see what I mean.

Anssi Manninen
05-13-2006, 05:54 AM
Ok.

Btw, MyoZene´s effectiveness will be tested at independent research labs, eg. Baylor University´s Exercise & Sport Nutrition Lab (http://www3.baylor.edu/HHPR/ESNL. Actually this is the main reason why I´m "Pimping" MyoZene. They are putting lot of money on REAL science. Also, they use scientifically tested ingredients in proven doses.

rcramden
05-13-2006, 05:34 PM
Leucine is a real superstar of amino acids:

Nutrition. 2006 May;22(5):520-7. Related Articles, Links


Effects of leucine supplementation on the body composition and protein status of rats submitted to food restriction.

Donato J Jr, Pedrosa RG, Cruzat VF, Pires IS, Tirapegui J.

Department of Food Science and Experimental Nutrition, Faculty of Pharmaceutical Sciences, University of Sao Paulo, Sao Paulo, Brazil.

OBJECTIVE: Acute administration of leucine has been shown to stimulate certain protein synthesis related anabolic processes. However, the effect of chronic leucine administration in a catabolic situation caused by food restriction (FR) has not been established. We therefore evaluated the effect of chronic leucine supplementation on the body composition and some indicators of protein nutritional status of rats submitted to FR. METHODS: Adult male Wistar rats were submitted to 50% FR for 6 weeks. The control group received the AIN-93M diet and the leucine group received the same diet supplemented with 5.91 g L-leucine/kg ration. We then determined carcass chemical composition, serum leptin, albumin and total protein concentrations, and protein, DNA and RNA concentrations in gastrocnemius muscle and liver. RESULTS: No difference in final body weight was observed between groups. However, the leucine group presented a lower amount of body fat (P < 0.05). Leptin concentration showed a directly proportional correlation with the amount of body fat (r = 0.88, P < 0.05), but no significant difference in serum leptin concentration was observed between groups (P = 0.08). Regarding protein nutritional status, liver protein concentration was higher in the leucine group (P < 0.05). In the gastrocnemius muscle, a higher RNA concentration (P < 0.05) and a tendency towards higher DNA concentration (P = 0.06) were observed in the leucine group. CONCLUSION: The results indicate that low-dose leucine supplementation increases body fat loss and improves liver protein status and the capacity of muscle protein synthesis in rats submitted to FR.

PMID: 16600817 [PubMed - in process]

PS. It is of some interest that many gym rats spend money on free form glutamine, which is largely waste of money:

European Journal of Applied Physiology
Publisher: Springer Berlin / Heidelberg
ISSN: 1439-6319 (Paper) 1439-6327 (Online)
DOI: 10.1007/s00421-001-0523-y
Issue: Volume 86, Number 2

Date: December 2001
Pages: 142 - 149
Effect of glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults


Darren G. Candow, Philip D. Chilibeck, Darren G. Burke, Shawn K. Davison, Truis Smith-Palmer

A1 College of Kinesiology, 105 Gymnasium Place, University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada, S7 N 5C2
A2 Department of Human Kinetics, St. Francis Xavier University, Antigonish, Nova Scotia, Canada, B2G 2W5
A3 Department of Chemistry, St. Francis Xavier University, Antigonish, Nova Scotia, Canada, B2G 2W5


Abstract:


Abstract. The purpose of this study was to assess the effect of oral glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults. A group of 31 subjects, aged 18-24 years, were randomly allocated to groups (double blind) to receive either glutamine (0.9 g·kg lean tissue mass-1·day-1; n=17) or a placebo (0.9 g maltodextrin·kg lean tissue mass-1·day-1; n=14) during 6 weeks of total body resistance training. Exercises were performed for four to five sets of 6-12 repetitions at intensities ranging from 60% to 90% 1 repetition maximum (1 RM). Before and after training, measurements were taken of 1 RM squat and bench press strength, peak knee extension torque (using an isokinetic dynamometer), lean tissue mass (dual energy X-ray absorptiometry) and muscle protein degradation (urinary 3-methylhistidine by high performance liquid chromatography). Repeated measures ANOVA showed that strength, torque, lean tissue mass and 3-methylhistidine increased with training (P<0.05), with no significant difference between groups. Both groups increased their 1 RM squat by approximately 30% and 1 RM bench press by approximately 14%. The glutamine group showed increases of 6% for knee extension torque, 2% for lean tissue mass and 41% for urinary levels of 3-methylhistidine. The placebo group increased knee extension torque by 5%, lean tissue mass by 1.7% and 3-methylhistidine by 56%. We conclude that glutamine supplementation during resistance training has no significant effect on muscle performance, body composition or muscle protein degradation in young healthy adults.

do you see any advantage to using Leukic over leucine? its expensive as hell and i would rather not waste the money unless there is a definite benefit.

Anssi Manninen
05-13-2006, 05:51 PM
do you see any advantage to using Leukic over leucine? its expensive as hell and i would rather not waste the money unless there is a definite benefit.

As far as I know, LEUKIC is a combination of leucine and KIC. MyoZene also contains both Leucine and KIC. However, there is no definite evidence supporting this combination but KIC certainly doesnt hurt. One could speculate that KIC provides anti-catabolic effects faster than leucine. Thus, it may be of some value immediately after exercise.

rcramden
05-13-2006, 05:58 PM
Okay but myozeen is not abailable, right? so should i just take leucine with my whey protein shake after training, and if so how much?

Anssi Manninen
05-13-2006, 06:18 PM
Atleast 5 g of added leucine.

deserusan
05-13-2006, 06:23 PM
Just as reference bulk KIC (alpha ketoisocaproic acid) goes for around $24.00 per gram. I'm sure these companies get more of a bulk discount due to volume, but eitherway, KIC is expensive. This may make what seems to be a simple formulation seem like a lot of money.

http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/23051/SLK1171

Anssi Manninen
05-13-2006, 06:27 PM
Yes, KIC is damn expensive stuff and leucine is not so cheap either. But the difference is crystal clear: http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/10419/SLL1054

Dimitar
05-13-2006, 08:36 PM
Purity dictates price, this is not the same leucine we buy in bulk, this is for experiments.

Anssi Manninen
05-14-2006, 04:28 AM
You are wrong. The leading sports supplement companies use the highest quality BCAAs made in Japan. Their stuff is utilized in BCAA-related scientific studies.

Cyclops
05-14-2006, 04:41 AM
all i care about is taste, especially post workout.

Why don't you just have coca cola then?

Anssi Manninen
05-14-2006, 06:58 AM
Glutamine Peptides Boost Natural Killer Activity

Of all the immune system's soldiers, natural killer cells (NK cells) are the most aggressive. They are your first line of defense against virus infected cells. In addition to their role in the control of infections, NK cells help in the regulation of other aspects of the immune system which effects our overall health. Following exercise, the NK cell activity is suppressed if the exercise have been of high-intensity and relatively long duration (more than 45 minutes).
A Japanish research group led by Dr. Noboru Horiguchi examined the effects of glutamine peptide (wheat gluten hydrolysate) supplementation on immune function of healhy human volunteers. The subjects consumed 3 grams/day of glutamine peptides for 6 days, and their NK cell activity was measured. Simply stated, this study indicated that glutamine peptides can augment NK cell activity without adverse effects. Although more research is needed before firm conclusion can be drawn, glutamine peptides may prevent the exercise-induced weakening of the immune system.

Reference:
Horiguchi N et al. Effect of wheat gluten hydrolysate on the immune system in healthy human subjects. Biosci Biotechnol Biochem. 2005 Dec;69(12):2445-9.