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ElMariachi
04-26-2006, 01:35 AM
I was flipping through the channels late at night and came across a pretty good segment on the O'Reilly Show. The segment had O'Reilly, a guy from Greenpeace and an expert on alternative fuels from an independent think tank. This is one of the best features on the topic I've seen in a long time. Everyone got to say their piece and they were all pretty close in regards to the same goal.


The Greenpeace guy came off very well. He didn't have that creepy wild-eyed, disheveled look that you usually get from some of the PETA folks. He made some terrific points and scoffed at the notion that oil prices were being somehow inflated by the oil companies. He remarked that we have known this day would come for decades, especially considering the economic emergence of India and China, along with their increasing demand for oil. The problems in the Middle East and Nigeria only add to the conflict, but the biggest problems according to him were the American obsession with frequently larger, more power vehicles that resulted in lower and lower mileage per gallon.


The independent think tank guy also spoke very well. He used Brazil as an example of how quickly a country can reduce their oil dependence greatly. His comments suggested that if the investment was there from the oil companies, America could switch to almost entire ethanol reliance within 5 years. I found his remarks on Brazil very intriguing. He cited that numerous automakers are already making vehicles that are partially or entirely capable of existing simply on alternative fuels.



Both the Greenpeace guy and the second guy agreed that the investigation into the Oil companies will put more pressure on the oil companies to improve their public relations, which has a good possibility of increasing their investment in alternative fuels, which regardless of what they claim, for the most part is almost non-existant. They both agreed that while they don't believe the companies are gouging anyone, they are falsely advertising their so-called "goodwill campaigns toward the environment" and deserve to be put on the spot for that.


There was a debate regarding ANWR and just how much oil it actually contains, but ultimately the focus was on leaving oil behind as soon as possible and advancing to alternative fuels.


If I can get a transcript of the segment, I'll post it on here, but it was very good. I don't usually watch O'Reilly but he was really in good form here, like the O'Reilly of many many years ago, back before he jumped the shark and his ego exploded.

Ruhanv
04-26-2006, 02:33 AM
O'Reilly's transcripts normally come online in about 8 hours time. Don't ask me how I know. :)

Sounds like an interesting show and I agree with both the GP and independant think tank guy. Investment in alternative sources has become imperative for the world and oil companies are simply not spending enough in this area. The biggest reason being that it's not economically lucrative for them. I don't like big goverment but its' time that the Govt stepped into this arena as it affects all of our lives. Unfortunately this will never happen during the Bush administration.

ElMariachi
04-26-2006, 03:24 AM
O'Reilly's transcripts normally come online in about 8 hours time. Don't ask me how I know. :)

Sounds like an interesting show and I agree with both the GP and independant think tank guy. Investment in alternative sources has become imperative for the world and oil companies are simply not spending enough in this area. The biggest reason being that it's not economically lucrative for them. I don't like big goverment but its' time that the Govt stepped into this arena as it affects all of our lives. Unfortunately this will never happen during the Bush administration.



I really didn't know just how extensive Brazil's alternative fuel's program was. They've had some real success over there, I mean, their present system could be considered a model for the rest of the world in some ways. They've achieved a lot, so its definitely not something out of the realm of possibility. The only issue I see when it comes to ethanol is needing to increase the amount of refineries around the nation and I'm not sure how that would mesh with the stand by the environmentalists.


It doesn't take government intervention to cause such change, a lot of it depends on the consumers in general.


However Bush has made some leeway in the alternative fuels area. Check out this month's Popular Mechanics, which has a long summary of legislation that has been put into effect to provide tax breaks/incentives for companies that develop alternative fuels. There can be a lot more done arguably, but then again there's also a fine line where once crossed, government intervention becomes a major burden. Look back at some of the ridiculous policies that were imposed during the 1970's to counter the severe issues with gas pricing and supply.

Hartski
04-26-2006, 05:04 AM
I saw something on Brazil's Ethenol Industry on tv the other day. It might have been the same show.

I found it pretty neat how they get the Ethenol from the sugar cane, then burn the remainder of the plant to power their refineries.

This process could easily be duplicated in The US with our corn-based Ethenol. Cornstalks are mostly left in the fields after harvest, and they could be burned to power the refineries.

etech
04-26-2006, 05:10 AM
The best incentive for alternative fuels is high fuel prices.

Snoopis
04-26-2006, 06:26 AM
The problem with ethanol is that, at least using current methods, we don't grow enough corn to replace even 20% of our gasoline. Maybe in a few years, as interest increases, more money will be spent to figure out how to do it better.

Did the show mention soy biodiesel? It's in the same boat, but there are a lot of better crop options(algae, for example). Biodiesel production is nearly three times as efficient as ethanol.

I use biodiesel in my Golf. :)


The best incentive for alternative fuels is high fuel prices.

True. As fuel prices go higher, more people will invest in alternatives, and also alternatives that used to be seen as expensive will now be more in line with petroleum fuels. However, as alternatives become more affordable, the oil companies/countries can always just drop the price of oil, forcing alternatives out of the market. But at least then we will have alternatives ready and waiting when we need them, and in the meantime fuel will be cheap.

Hartski
04-26-2006, 06:43 AM
Did the show mention soy biodiesel? It's in the same boat, but there are a lot of better crop options(algae, for example). Biodiesel production is nearly three times as efficient as ethanol.

I use biodiesel in my Golf. :)




The part I cought was only on Brazil's Ethenol Industry.

But I have seen shows on Biodiesel.

Have you thought about buying a kit to make your own biodiesel out of used cooking oil? I saw it on an episode of TRUCKS.

http://www.freedomfuelamerica.com/


Edit: Here's the direct link:
http://www.biodieselsolutions.com/home/home.asp

Snoopis
04-26-2006, 07:06 AM
Have you thought about buying a kit to make your own biodiesel out of used cooking oil? I saw it on an episode of TRUCKS.


I'd like to, but I live in an apartment. If management saw an appleseed kit in my garage I'd probably get evicted faster than you can say SOY. But when I get a house, I'll definitely consider it. I have a friend who owns a Chinese restaurant, so I have an oil source already(assuming someone doesn't beat me to it!). You can build one of those kits for about $600 from what I've read. My biodiesel is about 20cents cheaper than #2 diesel right now, so it's still not a bad deal.

Hartski
04-26-2006, 07:11 AM
I'd like to, but I live in an apartment. If management saw an appleseed kit in my garage I'd probably get evicted faster than you can say SOY. But when I get a house, I'll definitely consider it. I have a friend who owns a Chinese restaurant, so I have an oil source already(assuming someone doesn't beat me to it!). You can build one of those kits for about $600 from what I've read. My biodiesel is about 20cents cheaper than #2 diesel right now, so it's still not a bad deal.

Yeah, the landlord would think you were making meth or moonshine or something.:D You'd definately need your own place for that.

I've been trying to convince my Dad to sell 2 or 3 of his trucks and get a new Ford Super Duty or Chevy HD with a diesel, but he mostly drives his company truck (free fuel) so he doesn't spend much on gas at all.

novax
04-26-2006, 08:16 AM
O'Reilly's transcripts normally come online in about 8 hours time. Don't ask me how I know. :)

Sounds like an interesting show and I agree with both the GP and independant think tank guy. Investment in alternative sources has become imperative for the world and oil companies are simply not spending enough in this area. The biggest reason being that it's not economically lucrative for them. I don't like big goverment but its' time that the Govt stepped into this arena as it affects all of our lives. Unfortunately this will never happen during the Bush administration.


Ethanol stocks are skyrocketing.. OMG

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=3m&s=ANDE&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=ande

I made a 20 percent profit in just 5 days!!!!
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=ANDE&t=5d&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=ande

I think with oil prices skyrocketing, the demand for ethanol will increase dramatically. These companies are just now making boatloads of money because of the huge push...

I hope I can keep some of my money in ethanol for awhile.. I love it.
Ethanol power! F*ck OPEC, I hope those bitches go to hell and we become self reliant with an alternative energy source.

Hartski
04-26-2006, 08:21 AM
Ethanol stocks are skyrocketing.. OMG

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=3m&s=ANDE&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=ande

I made a 20 percent profit in just 5 days!!!!
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=ANDE&t=5d&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=ande

I think with oil prices skyrocketing, the demand for ethanol will increase dramatically. These companies are just now making boatloads of money because of the huge push...

I hope I can keep some of my money in ethanol for awhile.. I love it.
Ethanol power! F*ck OPEC, I hope those bitches go to hell and we become self reliant with an alternative energy source.


And just think, with the genetically modified corn hybrids producing higher and higher yields, even in bad years, we'll be able to make more and more Ethenol from fewer acres of corn. The Libs might not want GM corn in their food, but I can't think they'll oppose it for fuel.

novax
04-26-2006, 08:25 AM
And just think, with the genetically modified corn hybrids producing higher and higher yields, even in bad years, we'll be able to make more and more Ethenol from fewer acres of corn. The Libs might not want GM corn in their food, but I can't think they'll oppose it for fuel.


Yeah man. Production of ethanol is no problem at all.. It will be very abundant and very cheap to produce.

The biggest issue I think is the ability to transport it. We wont be able to use the same pipes that Oil uses.. We would have to rebuild a new pipe line or something to transport the ethanol to gas station.. The initial converting to ethanol would be a pain in the ass but it will be all good from then on.

Hartski
04-26-2006, 08:28 AM
Yeah man. Production of ethanol is no problem at all.. It will be very abundant and very cheap to produce.

The biggest issue I think is the ability to transport it. We wont be able to use the same pipes that Oil uses.. We would have to rebuild a new pipe line or something to transport the ethanol to gas station.. The initial converting to ethanol would be a pain in the ass but it will be all good from then on.

Well I doubt they'll be making Ethenol in Alaska, so we don't need a new pipeline. Ethenol will get from refineries to gas stations the same as other fuel-trucks and trains.

novax
04-26-2006, 08:38 AM
I wonder when they are going to work on prototype for a ethanol jet... That would be pretty sweet too.

Hartski
04-26-2006, 08:41 AM
I wonder when they are going to work on prototype for a ethanol jet... That would be pretty sweet too.


Pretty sure most jets could run on Ethenol without a problem. Most Jet Fuel is just glorified Kerosene.

Next time I see a Boeing or Airbus guy visiting, I'll ask them.

novax
04-26-2006, 08:44 AM
"Right now making ethanol is almost like having a money machine," said Spencer Kelly, an ethanol analyst for the Oil Price Information Service in Rockville, Md. "Ethanol looks strong as long as gasoline prices stay strong and corn prices are low."

Investors are betting that new energy regulations and high gas prices could lead to an earnings bonanza for companies like The Andersons, ADM and Pacific Ethanol that produce the fuel additive made from fermented corn that allows cars to run more cleanly.


The surge of interest in ethanol was first fueled last July when Congress passed an energy bill requiring the U.S. to use 7.5 billion gallons of renewable fuels by 2012. Ethanol producers now have the capacity to produce about 4.3 billion gallons.

U.S. refiners are clamoring for more ethanol also due to the phaseout of a natural gas derivative called methyl tertiary butyl ether, or MTBE, that allows gasoline to burn more cleanly but also has some health risks. Refiners are stopping use of MTBE because Congress refused to grant them protection from lawsuits.

Private investments in ethanol plants also have soared in the last year. Farmer-owned co-ops built most of the plants during the 1990s, but now only six of the 42 new or expanded ethanol plants under construction nationwide are farmer-owned, according to the Renewable Fuels Association trade group.

Analysts say a drop in oil prices also could cut into the profits of ethanol makers because ethanol's cost is directly tied to gas prices at the pump. A rush in demand for fuel efficient cars or a decision to drop government incentives for ethanol also could spell trouble.

"It looks like they will be profitable into the next year or year and a half," she said. "The economics of ethanol are incredibly compelling at this time."











I hope gas prices remain high, so ethanol will take off and so I can make more money.

Couldbebigga
04-26-2006, 08:46 AM
And just think, with the genetically modified corn hybrids producing higher and higher yields, even in bad years, we'll be able to make more and more Ethenol from fewer acres of corn. The Libs might not want GM corn in their food, but I can't think they'll oppose it for fuel.
Ethanol can also be made from sugar cane. Not just corn. Australia will get a big boost is ethanol takes off. We have huge sugar cane fields that are struggling with people eating healthier and the free trade agreement with the US didn't work well for them.

So bring ethanol on I say :)

ironman1964bc
04-26-2006, 09:07 AM
One of the main problems right now is that ethanol production cannot keep up with the rising fuel usage. One of the reasons that prices are so high is because ethanol is being used over MTBE, that is why the environmentalists are getting blamed for the latest price surge. Ethanol may sound like the solution but right now its the problem.

Also, what makes you all think the the govt won't tax any new alternative fuel to death like they do gas? What good is any alternative fuel when it costs more than gas?

What they should be doing is looking at how Venezuela can sell gas for 12cents/gal, Nigeria 38cents/gal, and most of the middle east under a $1/gal. You see, taxes and other fees are the problem, not the actual gas price. In the state of New York yesterday, each gallon of gas carried a 63 cent tax while the oil companies were only getting a 9 cent profit per gallon. The taxes were 7 times more than oil company profits.

You can bet that no matter what alternative fuel source is used, the govt will find a way to tax it to death, I don't care if it is horse manure.

Do you realize that electric cars have been around since 1927? Do you realize the great inventor Tesla discovered sources of free energy over 100 years ago, but JP Morgan cut all funding off to Tesla after he discovered that Tesla's goal was to supply energy to everyone for free. Do you realize that the FBI stole all Tesla's notes and journals after his death, and they haven't been seen since?

Look, the oil companies and the powerful men behind them are not going to let any alternative fuel take over, unless they can make money off of it.

Hartski
04-26-2006, 09:57 AM
Do you realize the great inventor Tesla discovered sources of free energy over 100 years ago, but JP Morgan cut all funding off to Tesla after he discovered that Tesla's goal was to supply energy to everyone for free. Do you realize that the FBI stole all Tesla's notes and journals after his death, and they haven't been seen since?



Quit spewing the conspiracy bull**** unless you have something to back it up. If the FBI stole all his notes and they haven't been seen since, how do YOU know about them?

Snoopis
04-26-2006, 09:59 AM
I wonder when they are going to work on prototype for a ethanol jet... That would be pretty sweet too.

Ethanol is a gasoline substitute, not a diesel/kerosene substitute. You would use biodiesel, not ethanol, for a turbine engine.

But you can use ethanol for reciprocating engines in airplanes, and there are some that are certified for ethanol use. I remember seeing an ethanol powered airplane doing aerobatics at Oshkosh about 7 years ago.

But right now, it seems general aviation is trying to move towards diesel engines, or at least engines that can run on jet fuel. So for aviation, I think biodiesel, or perhaps "gas to liquid" diesel fuel has more of a chance of success. One thing is for sure, and that's the fact that 100LL currently being used in most small planes will probably not be around for much longer.


Also, what makes you all think the the govt won't tax any new alternative fuel to death like they do gas? What good is any alternative fuel when it costs more than gas?


When you fill up your car with ethanol or biodiesel, its price already includes federal and state road tax. A gas station won't be selling it without the road tax unless it's marked as "off road" or "farm use."
ETA: And remember, we are currently paying farmers to not grow stuff, to keep prices artificially high. Quit paying them for doing nothing, and maybe they will grow more and prices will come down.

ironman1964bc
04-26-2006, 12:29 PM
Ethanol is a gasoline substitute, not a diesel/kerosene substitute. You would use biodiesel, not ethanol, for a turbine engine.

But you can use ethanol for reciprocating engines in airplanes, and there are some that are certified for ethanol use. I remember seeing an ethanol powered airplane doing aerobatics at Oshkosh about 7 years ago.

But right now, it seems general aviation is trying to move towards diesel engines, or at least engines that can run on jet fuel. So for aviation, I think biodiesel, or perhaps "gas to liquid" diesel fuel has more of a chance of success. One thing is for sure, and that's the fact that 100LL currently being used in most small planes will probably not be around for much longer.



When you fill up your car with ethanol or biodiesel, its price already includes federal and state road tax. A gas station won't be selling it without the road tax unless it's marked as "off road" or "farm use."
ETA: And remember, we are currently paying farmers to not grow stuff, to keep prices artificially high. Quit paying them for doing nothing, and maybe they will grow more and prices will come down.

Why does everyone in this thread seem to think that ethanol is the future answer to our fuel problems. IT IS ALREADY BEING USED NOW!!. That is one reason prices are so high.

Here is a snip from an article on a CNBC website...Will there be enough ethanol?
Ethanol may be the trickiest question in the gas price puzzle. Refiners are substituting it for MTBE, an additive in gasoline that reduced air pollutants from auto exhausts but causes groundwater pollution. The problem is getting enough ethanol fast enough.
"The ethanol industry is not fully ramped up to supply all the ethanol the market is going to demand this summer, said Addison Armstrong, ETF manager at TFS Energy. "Nothing is going to change that over the next three to five months."
It's is true, commodity expert Bill O'Grady of A.G. Edwards in St. Louis said, that because of constraints in oil production and refining "very small increases in demand bring about outsized gains in prices."
But he added, "Likewise, a very small drop in demand would have a similar but opposite impact. That's the part that's going to surprise people."

Hartski
04-26-2006, 12:32 PM
Why does everyone in this thread seem to think that ethanol is the future answer to our fuel problems. IT IS ALREADY BEING USED NOW!!. That is one reason prices are so high.

Because it's:

1. Renewable
2. advances in technology will make production cheaper and more eficient over time
3. More widespread use will lower prices.