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kethnaab
04-09-2006, 07:12 PM
by Debris Trail

I used to know a man whose family were German aristocracy prior to World War Two. They owned a number of large industries and estates. I asked him how many German people were true Nazis, and the answer he gave has stuck with me and guided my attitude toward fanaticism ever since.

"Very few people were true Nazis" he said, "but, many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories."

We are told again and again by "experts" and "talking heads" that Islam is the religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace.

Although this unquantified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the specter of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam. The fact is, that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars world wide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honor kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. The hard quantifiable fact is, that the "peaceful majority" is the "silent majority" and it is cowed and extraneous.

Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.

The Average Japanese individual prior to World War 2 was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of Killing that included the systematic killing of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet. And, who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were "peace loving"?

History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points. Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by the fanatics. Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awake one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun. Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, [Serbs], Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others, have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late. As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts; the fanatics who threaten our way of life.

Q-Ball83
05-29-2006, 05:33 PM
man oh man, i just love how you leave out americans in all of that, cause we all know that every american war or battle has always been true and just, and never once been about money power or oil..just democracy and justice for all.....pft!

but hey don't get me wrong, i'm sure the majoraty of people in America aren't oil hungry war mongering tycoons like george bush and his little puppet of a coke sniffing son...

you want to talk about killing in the name of a god, CHRISTIANS have performed more ethnic clensings over the past two thousand years than any other religion to date!

look man, there are fanatics in every religion/country/whatever, it has nothing to do with race/skin colour/religion/nationality, ever thought of that, or were you too busy hating muslims?

i'm just saying there's a lot of us in the world who feel that its better to live and let die, try to look for the peacefull answer before grabbing for your gun, try a little compasion and understanding before jumping to acusations. if you hate then you become hate man, thats all i have to say

B_Master_Flash
05-29-2006, 05:49 PM
man oh man, i just love how you leave out americans in all of that, cause we all know that every american war or battle has always been true and just, and never once been about money power or oil..just democracy and justice for all.....pft!

but hey don't get me wrong, i'm sure the majoraty of people in America aren't oil hungry war mongering tycoons like george bush and his little puppet of a coke sniffing son...

you want to talk about killing in the name of a god, CHRISTIANS have performed more ethnic clensings over the past two thousand years than any other religion to date!

look man, there are fanatics in every religion/country/whatever, it has nothing to do with race/skin colour/religion/nationality, ever thought of that, or were you too busy hating muslims?

i'm just saying there's a lot of us in the world who feel that its better to live and let die, try to look for the peacefull answer before grabbing for your gun, try a little compasion and understanding before jumping to acusations. if you hate then you become hate man, thats all i have to say

????

You were offended by that post?! I guess I keep forgetting this is America in the 21st century, being offended is trendy now.

Original poster: Good post, very true. This applies to many different aspects of governments and civilizations as a whole.

kethnaab
05-29-2006, 10:33 PM
look man, there are fanatics in every religion/country/whatever, it has nothing to do with race/skin colour/religion/nationality, ever thought of that, or were you too busy hating muslims?

I hate people who fly airplanes into buildings carrying thousands of non-combatants.

I hate people who randomly blow up train stations, "just because"

I hate people who call for the deaths of everyone who isn't like them.

as for the "last 2000 years" comment, let's stick to what is happening NOW.

Germany was pretty brutal 50 years ago, and Japan was far worse. Yet that is not what is happening NOW, therefore it is IRRELEVANT.

Christians aren't blowing up buildings. Christians aren't flying airplanes into buildings. Christians aren't blowing up train stations. Muslims are. Granted, they are fanatical muslims, but if you could somehow manage to put a band-aid on your bleeding liberal heart, you'd recognize that the fanatical muslims have made the PEACEFUL MAJORITY irrelevant.



i'm just saying there's a lot of us in the world who feel that its better to live and let die, try to look for the peacefull answer before grabbing for your gun, try a little compasion and understanding before jumping to acusations. if you hate then you become hate man, thats all i have to say

tell that to the shi'ites and sunnis who want to destroy all of Israel, who call for the death of all of western civilization.

honestly, we tried to leave the middle east alone, and guess what it got us?

a few destroyed buildings. Sorry if the reality of the world conflicts with the fantasy of your mind.

deeyala
05-29-2006, 11:37 PM
kethnaab, you can't point a problem everyone sees and wait for it to miraculously disappear...!
what are your suggestions, then?
if you say, what your country is doing right now, then i am afraid the answer is,"naaah, it won't work...!"

kethnaab
05-29-2006, 11:44 PM
what are my suggestions?

I'm not a muslim. Therefore, I canot fathom how or why they are able to do what they do.

What needs to happen is for muslim leaders WORLDWIDE to explain just how vulgar it is when a terrorist commits acts of terror. Unfortuately, they have been too busy protesting cartoons to notice that muslims are killing muslims at an insane rate.

honestly, I'm an outsider. I can't cure what ails you. Why don't YOU tell me what YOUR suggestion is?

deeyala
05-29-2006, 11:49 PM
what are my suggestions?

I'm not a muslim. Therefore, I canot fathom how or why they are able to do what they do.

What needs to happen is for muslim leaders WORLDWIDE to explain just how vulgar it is when a terrorist commits acts of terror. Unfortuately, they have been too busy protesting cartoons to notice that muslims are killing muslims at an insane rate.

honestly, I'm an outsider. I can't cure what ails you. Why don't YOU tell me what YOUR suggestion is?
so you're claiming 1)mulsim leaders don't already do that and 2) that you only started this thread because you're really worried about what "ails us" - and not "you" ?

kethnaab
05-29-2006, 11:53 PM
so you're claiming 1)mulsim leaders don't already do that

obviously not, or terrorism wouldn't exist. Islamic fundamentalist terrorism exists because enough muslim leaders encourage it. Obviously not ALL muslim leaders, but the ones who stand up against it are few and far between and, as stated in the earlier post, they are rendered irrelevant.

they are the majority, their voice is silent, and their words do not bring about any action.

therefore, "the peaceful majority is irrelevant"


and 2) that you only started this thread because you're really worried about what "ails us" - and not "you" ?

I couldn't give 2 ****s less about "you", anymoreso than you care about me. however, when "you" fly planes into "my" buildings, then I care.

deeyala
05-30-2006, 12:09 AM
obviously not, or terrorism wouldn't exist. Islamic fundamentalist terrorism exists because enough muslim leaders encourage it. Obviously not ALL muslim leaders, but the ones who stand up against it are few and far between and, as stated in the earlier post, they are rendered irrelevant.

.
let me get this straight: by muslim leaders you mean under-ground type of leaders or a popular, highly respected leader




I couldn't give 2 ****s less about "you", anymoreso than you care about me. however, when "you" fly planes into "my" buildings, then I care.
if i am flying a plane into your buildings- then i am afraid it's your problem :D

kethnaab
05-30-2006, 12:38 AM
let me get this straight: by muslim leaders you mean under-ground type of leaders or a popular, highly respected leader


"muslim leader" = "muslim person who can cause muslims to act"

so...those "underground type" of leaders sure do affect a lot of stuff happening "above ground", eh?

deeyala
05-30-2006, 12:45 AM
"muslim leader" = "muslim person who can cause muslims to act"

so...those "underground type" of leaders sure do affect a lot of stuff happening "above ground", eh?
but having them actually encourage, you must realize, isn't Islam-related.. sure they use it as their face-front but you can't go calling them 'muslim leaders" you can call them 'terrorist leaders", "mad mob leaders" - whatever..

calling them "muslim leaders" imply they do that, because they're muslim

ElMariachi
05-30-2006, 12:55 AM
but having them actually encourage, you must realize, isn't Islam-related.. sure they use it as their face-front but you can't go calling them 'muslim leaders" you can call them 'terrorist leaders", "mad mob leaders" - whatever..

calling them "muslim leaders" imply they do that, because they're muslim


Yes but there is something that causes these people to act this way. We have poor people all over the world who don't act out in such a manner. We have poor people in South America, and how often do you hear about them blowing up stuff or beheading people in such a manner? Its definitely a cultural thing, something is promoting these actions and these attitudes and it emanates from the general Muslim community.


I don't think its unfair to question this either. Its clear that in some places, this behavior is strongly encouraged, and for any meaningful change to occur, the same type of behavior must be rooted out.

You can say that there are people speaking out against it, but obviously isn't having a strong enough effect. I think the awareness is better than it was a decade ago, so there is definitely a movement to improve relations, especially in an interfaith/intercultural aspect but there's a lot of misunderstanding and hostility on both sides, the part that is disconcerting is the same type of behavior is still popularized, celebrated and encouraged in many parts.

kethnaab
05-30-2006, 01:06 AM
but having them actually encourage, you must realize, isn't Islam-related.. sure they use it as their face-front but you can't go calling them 'muslim leaders" you can call them 'terrorist leaders", "mad mob leaders" - whatever..

calling them "muslim leaders" imply they do that, because they're muslim

they are muslims. they are leaders. they encourage other muslims to act by convincing them that it is the Islamic way

therefore, they are "muslim leaders"

the people who do NOT deserve to be considered "leaders of Islam" are the ones that sit idly by while these terrorists take over Islam.

and yes, they ARE taking over Islam.

*points, once again, to the title of the thread*

deeyala
05-30-2006, 01:08 AM
Yes but there is something that causes these people to act this way. We have poor people all over the world who don't act out in such a manner. We have poor people in South America, and how often do you hear about them blowing up stuff or beheading people in such a manner? Its definitely a cultural thing, something is promoting these actions and these attitudes and it emanates from the general Muslim community.
.
ignorance would be a more precise reason. i wouldn't call a guy who left his country to learn how to fly an aeroplane in the States "poor" .. but a combination of 1)ignorance fo his own religion and 2) weak personality led him to flying it into a building ,killing innocents,while all the time he's having a guilt-free attitude..
my solution to this problem is teach those people about their TRUE religion... so instead of funding a war that will inevitably end in a "no win situation", fund the spread of the true religion among its followers..
but i can't see the US funding the spread of a religion that presents a way of living different from its own, different from the way of living it spends billions of dollars to promote for...

that's my solution..
and i'll understand if you don't like it -BUT at least i presented one, instead of throwing it into someone else's lap

deeyala
05-30-2006, 01:09 AM
they are muslims. they are leaders. they encourage other muslims to act by convincing them that it is the Islamic way

therefore, they are "muslim leaders"

the people who do NOT deserve to be considered "leaders of Islam" are the ones that sit idly by while these terrorists take over Islam.

and yes, they ARE taking over Islam.

*points, once again, to the title of the thread*
thank you, now you've just saved me wasting my breath on you

Baalman
05-30-2006, 01:20 AM
you want to talk about killing in the name of a god, CHRISTIANS have performed more ethnic clensings over the past two thousand years than any other religion to date!

Wrong.

kethnaab
05-30-2006, 01:36 AM
thank you, now you've just saved me wasting my breath on you

why? Because the truth hurts?

Whether it is "real" Islam or "fake" Islam that the terrorists are exercising is irrelevant. They ARE convincing muslims that their version of Islam is CORRECT.

So whether you agree or disagree, just like the peaceful majority, is irrelevant. what matters is what is occuring throughout the islamic world. I'm sorry if you can't see that or if you refuse to see it, but those airplanes weren't flown by Italians. The bombs that happened in UK train station...they weren't set off by christians. and the suicide bombings that are killing Iraqi's by the scores are not occuring because of Jews.

they are happening in the name of Islam. Real Islam? Fake Islam? it's up to the true Islamic leaders to convince the islamic world that terrorism is FAKE Islam.

So far, they aren't doing a very good job of it.

SYRIANKID
05-30-2006, 01:46 AM
why? Because the truth hurts?

Whether it is "real" Islam or "fake" Islam that the terrorists are exercising is irrelevant. They ARE convincing muslims that their version of Islam is CORRECT.

So whether you agree or disagree, just like the peaceful majority, is irrelevant. what matters is what is occuring throughout the islamic world. I'm sorry if you can't see that or if you refuse to see it, but those airplanes weren't flown by Italians. The bombs that happened in UK train station...they weren't set off by christians. and the suicide bombings that are killing Iraqi's by the scores are not occuring because of Jews.

they are happening in the name of Islam. Real Islam? Fake Islam? it's up to the true Islamic leaders to convince the islamic world that terrorism is FAKE Islam.

So far, they aren't doing a very good job of it.

The laws of Islam on Jihad are clear.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=4747879&postcount=1

http://www.livingislam.org/maa/dcmm_e.html

It is only because certain countries CONTINUOUSLY prop up military dictatorships that politically suppress Muslims or invade their countries to interfere politically that terrorists get away with anything.

When you demonstrate against the above, let us know.

And in case nobody told you yet, comparing every other group you disagree with to the Nazis is the most overused hyperbole around, it makes you look like you can't specifically argue against anything.

Also, your sensational story about Mosques being taken over by "extremists" is baseless and melodramatic. It's a "Nazi" propaganda tool, if I may use your trite analogy.

And lasty, I GUARANTEE you that many of the things you want to pin on "extremists" are actually part and parcel of the Islamic religion itself, which makes you an enemy of the religion and not of any small faction, which nullifies anything you intended to persuade the other 1.5 billion about.

NormandyRoad
05-30-2006, 01:53 AM
by Debris Trail

I used to know a man whose family were German aristocracy prior to World War Two. They owned a number of large industries and estates. I asked him how many German people were true Nazis, and the answer he gave has stuck with me and guided my attitude toward fanaticism ever since.

"Very few people were true Nazis" he said, "but, many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories."

We are told again and again by "experts" and "talking heads" that Islam is the religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace.

Although this unquantified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the specter of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam. The fact is, that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars world wide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honor kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. The hard quantifiable fact is, that the "peaceful majority" is the "silent majority" and it is cowed and extraneous.

Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.

The Average Japanese individual prior to World War 2 was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of Killing that included the systematic killing of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet. And, who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were "peace loving"?

History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points. Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by the fanatics. Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awake one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun. Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, [Serbs], Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others, have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late. As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts; the fanatics who threaten our way of life.
I don't think anyone is saying "most muslims are peaceful so let the muslim terrorists do what they want". The only time I hear anyone saying "most muslims are peaceful" is when the peaceful majority gets blamed for the actions of the violent minority.

The peaceful majority has never been more important. In the current climate of terrorism and war where people are looking for reasons to hate one another, it is important to look at the peaceful majority of muslims and realise that we have a lot in common.

Diana Ball
05-30-2006, 02:00 AM
by Debris Trail

I used to know a man whose family were German aristocracy prior to World War Two. They owned a number of large industries and estates. I asked him how many German people were true Nazis, and the answer he gave has stuck with me and guided my attitude toward fanaticism ever since.

"Very few people were true Nazis" he said, "but, many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories."

...


Keith, you are joking right? Or are you really that much of a blind, fooled, sheep?

I began reading your post, thinking, ok, this is another warning about BushCo that we already have heard about, but from another perspective. But damn, I read your post about being a 'silent majority' towards Nazi-type regimes
... and then it led into a warning about the MUSLIMS????


The Nazis of today are Bush and Co in conjunction with the American Military-Industrial Complex! Not ANYONE else. THESE are the people Nazi history has warned us about. Who the hell are you trying to kid? Who are the people invading foreign lands under false pretenses? Who are the ones using fake terrorism for ulterior motives? Who are the ones seeking any and every way to restrict their own people's freedoms allowable? Who are the ones building the most sophisticated army in the world for these purposes?


If you think the Muslims are the Nazi's of today, then you must think that the Jews were the Nazi's of 1930-40's Germany !?!?!?!?!?

Keith, here's an analogy for you:
YOU are the German citizen of 1939 Germany thinking his Nazi Government is right in its actions. Keith, you'll be supporting the concentration camps soon wont you?

kethnaab
05-30-2006, 02:30 AM
ugh. first off, it's Keth, not Keith. No "I" in the name anywhere.


It is only because certain countries CONTINUOUSLY prop up military dictatorships that politically suppress Muslims or invade their countries to interfere politically that terrorists get away with anything.

of course. the tried and true method of "blame my actions on everyone else but me...sure, i pulled the trigger/blew up the bomb, but it was the evil Western world that made me do it"

*laughs* pitiful.



your sensational story about Mosques being taken over by "extremists" is baseless and melodramatic

and real. Sorry, I have been in more mosques in Iraq than you have, and I have found myself sitting atop a mound of weapons recovered from said mosques far too often to count. You can keep your head buried in the sand if you like, but the reality is that your religious brethren aren't very finicky about what they bring into mosques. That includes weaponry such as RPGs, RPKs, Dragonov's, etc. So please, don't try to tell me about what is and isn't happening. Unlike you, I have seen it with my own eyes. I haven't read about it on "reputable" sources like cnn and/or al-jazeerah.


I GUARANTEE you that many of the things you want to pin on "extremists" are actually part and parcel of the Islamic religion itself, which makes you an enemy of the religion

yup. that's exactly what it makes me. What, specifically, might you be talking about, so as to avoid any sense of arbitrary vagueness here.

as for you, ConspiracyTheorist..."are the ones using fake terrorism for ulterior motives?"

those were fake airplanes? Perhaps you should let the UK know that those bombs that blew up...they weren't real. All those bodies flying everywhere...haha...just a joke! Fooled you!!

:rolleyes:

Q-Ball83
05-30-2006, 04:54 AM
this ones goin crazy, keth def. knows how to piss people off i'll give'em that!

you're entitled to your opinion, sory bout the rep, i cancled it out.

and for the record i'm not offended buy the post cause it's trendy, what i read was that basicaly all muslims are becoming just as bad a nazi germany. but i guess what you were trying to say is that they should be more active, i don't know maby i'm wrong again, this is the last time i look into the religion section...all i care about is getting jacked, that's why i came to this web site and startd reading all your posts.....

peace i'm out