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ol matey
03-23-2006, 03:02 AM
Should I cut the dext when I'm cutting and just have protein in my pwo shake? I'd be losing 30gm a day of sugar, but I've heard if you don't have enough carbs pwo your body uses a lot of the protein to recover lost energy, and needs energy even just to metabolise the protein itself.

johnnyironboard
03-23-2006, 03:25 AM
I would avoid sugar- if you feel carbs are a must try oats instead.

siamesedream
03-23-2006, 03:51 AM
I would avoid sugar- if you feel carbs are a must try oats instead.

I don't think oats would do anything for the purpose of the PWO carb.

stan
03-23-2006, 04:18 AM
id go for a combo of oats and dextrose

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=272067

Alex88
03-23-2006, 04:29 AM
I don't think oats would do anything for the purpose of the PWO carb.

This is false.

The purpose of carbohydrates post workout is to replenish muscle glycogen. Oats and dextrose will both replenish muscle glycogen, just at different rates. Unless you are a performance athlete and immediately after your weight lifting session you need muscle glycogen to continue training for another 2 - 3 hours, theres no point in using dextrose, especially on a cut. Oats keep you full longer and is more micronutrient-dense.

johnnyironboard
03-23-2006, 05:10 AM
I don't think oats would do anything for the purpose of the PWO carb.
It's better than candy!

hungrywolf
03-23-2006, 06:35 AM
This is false.

The purpose of carbohydrates post workout is to replenish muscle glycogen. Oats and dextrose will both replenish muscle glycogen, just at different rates. Unless you are a performance athlete and immediately after your weight lifting session you need muscle glycogen to continue training for another 2 - 3 hours, theres no point in using dextrose, especially on a cut. Oats keep you full longer and is more micronutrient-dense.

Ok- I understand replacing Glycogen stores in your muscles, but but do the oats PWO give you an insulin spike to help take advantage of whey, creatine, etc... ?

Jeraden
03-23-2006, 07:05 AM
I know this topic has been beaten to death, with no real consensus on the answer, but the argument for oats just doesn't make sense to me.

The purpose of the carbs is to get an insulin spike to help with the rapid absorption of the protein, nobody ever disputes that. Dextrose achieves this, and nobody argues that. People say you can still get that effect with oats. But at the same time, people advocate oats as a good low-GI carb source throughout the day. So its like somehow these oats can evoke insulin spikes in PWO shakes, yet not evoke insulin spikes throughout the rest of the day? I've seen it stated that your body is in a different state after a workout, so any carb will get the insulin response. If so, then what does it really matter if its oats or dextrose? If either one achieves the same result, then why not just stick with dextrose anyways? Considering there is some doubt on the subject, why not just be safe and stick with what is known to work?

There is the nutrient argument I see raised, but really, given the tons of other nutrients we eat in a day, one scoop of un-nutritive dextrose vs. some marginally-nutritive oats really doesn't make a huge difference. And again, it seems to go against the concept of fast-digestion, as one of the main benefits to oats is the fiber and all that does is slow digestion.

I just have yet to hear a real clear cut explanation of why oats are better than dextrose, the best you could do is just say they function the same after the workout. And like I said above, if thats true, no harm in just sticking with dextrose anyways.

Alex88
03-23-2006, 07:23 AM
It's not a race. You don't need need an 'insulin spike' for protein to be absorbed. Shucks, even protein in of itself generates an insulin response (note response, not spike), allowing it to be stored. Like I said, unless you are a performance athlete, I hardly see the point in using dextrose.

Like I said, using oats is a point of practicality in dieting. It keeps you full for longer. Appetite is the enemy when trying to lose fat.

boyscouT
03-23-2006, 07:26 AM
It's not a race. You don't need need an 'insulin spike' for protein to be absorbed. Shucks, even protein in of itself generates an insulin response (note response, not spike), allowing it to be stored. Like I said, unless you are a performance athlete, I hardly see the point in using dextrose.

Like I said, using oats is a point of practicality in dieting. It keeps you full for longer. Appetite is the enemy when trying to lose fat.

That's true, but since we're talkin about PWO, there is going to be a PPWO meal 1hr after the shake anyway, so why bother using the "oats keep you full longer" reasoning?

PS: I agree with ya alex, just poppin some more questions out there for everyone. This 'dextrose for athletes' thing really has me rattled. I was going to use it for my PWO shake in a couple weeks to see if I get better results. Now i'm doubting if I will.... $3.25 for 2lbs... hmm.

Alex88
03-23-2006, 07:48 AM
Realistically, especially when dieting, people dont follow this PPWO eating protocol (when calories are in constraint, meal frequency decreases). If you had a decent pre-workout meal consisting of low to medium GI carbohydrates, its still digesting in your body anyways.

Either way, oats or dextrose, wont make a difference in your body composition unless you are dieting for a contest or need muscle replenishment quickly for competitive purposes. However, I feel that telling people, especially those not so versed in nutrition and healthy eating, to always stress unrefined, complex carbohydrates like oats is a better path towards leading a healthier lifestyle. Too often have I seen people go to extremes (i.e. 100 g of malto, 100 g of dex).

Since you are bulking, use dextrose if you have trouble getting in calories. However, judging by your case-of-white-castle-burgers-for-a-cheat habit, I doubt you will have much trouble ;p.

boyscouT
03-23-2006, 07:56 AM
LMFAO!!!! I haven't had a crave case in months...

I'll probably use the 2lb tub of dextrose and judge after whether or not its worth using it.

Your comment about meal frequency has me thinking... on a cutting cycle, people don't follow the PWO shake + 1 hr + PPWO meal "rule"?

Alex88
03-23-2006, 08:05 AM
No. When you are cutting at 1500 - 2100 calories, eating 6 - 7 meals of 250 - 350 calories isnt very satisfying. I would rather have 4 or 5 solid meals consisting of larger portions.

Also, since we are splitting hairs, search for meal frequency review on PubMed. Basically eating 3 (well-spaced) versus 6 meals makes zero difference in terms of muscle synthesis and lipolysis. However, eating more meals frequently is a good habit to develop since it controls portion sizes and keeps blood sugar level stable.

Ski
03-23-2006, 08:10 AM
Always opt for solid food if you can while dieting.....have a baked potato with your shake PW......trust me on this.

Dextrose and creatine should be eliminated for best results when dieting to get lean.

BigGameJames
03-23-2006, 08:17 AM
If you gained muscle with the dex, it would be one of the last items to drop from your diet.

I wouldn't change your breakfast, postworkout shake, or last meal before bed if you are moving from a bulk to a cut. Cut the calories in your other meals. If you still aren't losing the fat you want, then tweak your last meal before bed, and then the postworkout shake and lastly the breakfast.

boyscouT
03-23-2006, 08:17 AM
Always opt for solid food if you can while dieting.....have a baked potato with your shake PW......trust me on this.

Dextrose and creatine should be eliminated for best results when dieting to get lean.

Eliminate creatine? Many people boast about the energy/power boost it gives them, especially on a cutting cycle.

Personally I'm going to invest in CEE since it is said to not cause bloating.

johnnyironboard
03-23-2006, 08:27 AM
If you gained muscle with the dex, it would be one of the last items to drop from your diet.

Sugar is not anabolic.

iTransformed.com - Admin
03-23-2006, 08:53 AM
Dextrose is FINE whether cutting or bulking.

Joenonymous
03-23-2006, 10:28 AM
Eliminate creatine? Many people boast about the energy/power boost it gives them, especially on a cutting cycle.

Personally I'm going to invest in CEE since it is said to not cause bloating.

There's absolutely no reason to eliminate creatine while cutting. Even to the extent that there is any bloating (the degree or even existence of which is far from universal), it's temporary water weight and has nothing to do with losing fat. If anything, creatine supplementation is even more beneficial on a cut because you will not be getting much creatine from your diet, and because the strength benefits are more pronounced when your diet is not set up to aid strength gains.

aspengc8
03-23-2006, 11:36 AM
Dextrose is FINE whether cutting or bulking.

+1 for Dextrose. I use to be a oats n whey PWO guy. Ill never go back after using dex for almost a year now. Im also cutting. Dex is fine while cutting, since the majority of your daily carbs come from PWO anyway (if dieting correctly).

Ski
03-23-2006, 12:05 PM
I never said creatine consumption had anything to do with gaining fat.....I was thinking along the lines of somebody getting ready to diet for a bodybuilding contest,as it will make you retain water.


For general dieting purposes it is fine to use.

My bad.....sorry!! :)

JonnySak
03-23-2006, 12:06 PM
I've been cutting for 3 weeks, and i've lost 3 lbs/week. My post-workout shake is half oats and half dextrose. Besides the pwo shake and my breakfast (fiber one) its the only time durring the day i consume carbs that aren't from fruits or vegtibles.

It doesn't seem to slow down my weight loss. Just keep track of your calories and it should be fine.

boyscouT
03-23-2006, 12:37 PM
I've been cutting for 3 weeks, and i've lost 3 lbs/week. My post-workout shake is half oats and half dextrose. Besides the pwo shake and my breakfast (fiber one) its the only time durring the day i consume carbs that aren't from fruits or vegtibles.

It doesn't seem to slow down my weight loss. Just keep track of your calories and it should be fine.

3lbs a week, for 3 weeks? How much of that was water / fat / muscle?

BigGameJames
03-23-2006, 12:41 PM
Sugar is not anabolic.

Don't misquote me. I never said sugar is anabolic.

Insulin is an anablic hormone.

Big Boi 1906
03-23-2006, 01:00 PM
I think It all depends on how fast you want the glucose and your maximum tolerance with out spillover. I think dextrose during the post workout period is analogous to whey protein. But just like whey, it should be followed up with a slower carb to be continuously Anabolic. Dextrose will cause an insulin spike because it goes straight to your blood stream. Now the insulin spike will supposedly "carry more protein" to the cells. This is fact because insulin can also carry fat to adipose cells as well. Although this process is not cut and dry, because fat will also reduce the insulin spike as well. As far as oats, oats will cause a slight rise in insulin. All foods cause an rise in insulin, it just varies. However, the oats(starch) will begin to breakdown in the mouth and move on to the small intestines. The glucose from oats is not immediately readily available after being eaten.

I think the solution to the "GREAT DEBATE" over this topic is whether or not you are in a Bulking phase or a Cutting phase. During bulking, you can probably test your tolerance to the amounts of dextrose you can ingest and the level of fat gain that may or may not occur. During a cut, you probably would want to go with the minimum amount of simple sugar needed to cause a NON-massive insulin spike post workout. It has been written some places that this amount is 35g of simple sugar combined with 6 grams of EAA's. Another says 50g whey/50g dextrose will do it. I think its all in your own personal experimentation. You may be able to get away with ingesting higher amounts of dextrose postworkout with out getting fat with the benefits of added mass gains.

I don't think it is just an either or discussion, I think it is in a reduction of the dextrose during your cut added in with maybe some oats.

Just keep in mind that the closer the dextrose is taken to your workout, the more effective and also, the oats will take a while to get glucose to your cells.

johnnyironboard
03-23-2006, 03:36 PM
Don't misquote me. I never said sugar is anabolic.

Insulin is an anablic hormone.

"If you gained muscle with the dex,"

That is YOUR Quote.

Insulin is more complicated than that. Guys that inject insulin don't get dramatic results- eating sugar isn't better than injecting insulin and most guys that try insulin will tell you it is overrated.

JonnySak
03-23-2006, 05:39 PM
3lbs a week, for 3 weeks? How much of that was water / fat / muscle?


I doubt much is water, i'm drinking 1 - 1.5 gallons of water a day. As far as fat/muscle, its hard to tell this early. I'm getting stronger and leaner every week. If I lose a little muscle i'm alright with that. I'll be able to tell a little better in a few more weeks

lol jk
03-23-2006, 05:56 PM
Don't cut it out completely. When cutting you really want to minimize catabolic states and dextrose PWO will help as long as you keep it in moderation.

garbage cutters
03-23-2006, 06:52 PM
Don't cut it out completely. When cutting you really want to minimize catabolic states and dextrose PWO will help as long as you keep it in moderation.


the sudden ingestion of a protein and carbohydrates such as oats immediately after a workout will put a stop to catabolism, it just doesnt cause as much of an insulin spike and still refills glycogen which is what you want while cutting, to avoid the simple sugars

also there are more nutrients in oats than dextrose, i personally think it is worthless and i feel more energetic and alert when using oats + whey as opposed to when i had the sugar from dextrose, it really can make u feel like crap and tired from all that sugar, most of the people probably dont even need that much from their workouts, the body uses what is gets to the fullest potential and whey and oats is great IMO

ol matey
03-26-2006, 06:09 PM
That's true, but since we're talkin about PWO, there is going to be a PPWO meal 1hr after the shake anyway, so why bother using the "oats keep you full longer" reasoning?

PS: I agree with ya alex, just poppin some more questions out there for everyone. This 'dextrose for athletes' thing really has me rattled. I was going to use it for my PWO shake in a couple weeks to see if I get better results. Now i'm doubting if I will.... $3.25 for 2lbs... hmm.
That's a good point, I don't want to feel full after a pwo shake. I want to be able to eat 45-60min afterwards.

ol matey
03-26-2006, 06:11 PM
No. When you are cutting at 1500 - 2100 calories, eating 6 - 7 meals of 250 - 350 calories isnt very satisfying. I would rather have 4 or 5 solid meals consisting of larger portions.

Also, since we are splitting hairs, search for meal frequency review on PubMed. Basically eating 3 (well-spaced) versus 6 meals makes zero difference in terms of muscle synthesis and lipolysis. However, eating more meals frequently is a good habit to develop since it controls portion sizes and keeps blood sugar level stable.
You should keep the meal frequency the same, the more often you eat, the higher your metabolism is...

ovidiu
03-27-2006, 01:46 AM
So its like somehow these oats can evoke insulin spikes in PWO shakes, yet not evoke insulin spikes throughout the rest of the day?

the insulin is spiked by the protein. it's common knowledge that protein-rich foods have an insulinic index comparable to that of high-gi foods.

Alex88
03-27-2006, 05:35 AM
You should keep the meal frequency the same, the more often you eat, the higher your metabolism is...


Br J Nutr. 1997 Apr;77 Suppl 1:S57-70. Related Articles, Links

Meal frequency and energy balance.

Bellisle F, McDevitt R, Prentice AM.

INSERM U341, Hotel Dieu de Paris, France.

Several epidemiological studies have observed an inverse relationship between people's habitual frequency of eating and body weight, leading to the suggestion that a 'nibbling' meal pattern may help in the avoidance of obesity. A review of all pertinent studies shows that, although many fail to find any significant relationship, the relationship is consistently inverse in those that do observe a relationship. However, this finding is highly vulnerable to the probable confounding effects of post hoc changes in dietary patterns as a consequence of weight gain and to dietary under-reporting which undoubtedly invalidates some of the studies. We conclude that the epidemiological evidence is at best very weak, and almost certainly represents an artefact. A detailed review of the possible mechanistic explanations for a metabolic advantage of nibbling meal patterns failed to reveal significant benefits in respect of energy expenditure. Although some short-term studies suggest that the thermic effect of feeding is higher when an isoenergetic test load is divided into multiple small meals, other studies refute this, and most are neutral. More importantly, studies using whole-body calorimetry and doubly-labelled water to assess total 24 h energy expenditure find no difference between nibbling and gorging. Finally, with the exception of a single study, there is no evidence that weight loss on hypoenergetic regimens is altered by meal frequency. We conclude that any effects of meal pattern on the regulation of body weight are likely to be mediated through effects on the food intake side of the energy balance equation.

----

Basically, eating more frequently = higher metabolism is a myth. But it does help control your appetite and blood sugar levels. But if you are like me and measure your food very precisely, 4 vs 6 meals has no difference.