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pole_starter
03-08-2006, 05:19 PM
heres a very contraversial pole that may pizz off many but i gotta do it

hohandy
03-08-2006, 05:22 PM
yeah that is controversial - the proof is pretty irrefutable.

What next - a poll about whether Columbus really had 4 ships and the 4th sailed over the edge?

Vargas
03-08-2006, 05:22 PM
heres a very contraversial pole that may pizz off many but i gotta do it
please go away...

pole_starter
03-08-2006, 05:49 PM
yeah that is controversial - the proof is pretty irrefutable.

What next - a poll about whether Columbus really had 4 ships and the 4th sailed over the edge?
lmfao, just for that, im going to poll it

pole_starter
03-08-2006, 05:54 PM
and as you can see i voted yes on this poll, plus thier is some people in this world who do belive its a myth

delta9
03-08-2006, 06:02 PM
and as you can see i voted yes on this poll, plus thier is some people in this world who do belive its a myth

don't be so damm ignorant, there are idiots who fully deny it and there are some who claim that all that has been said and written about it were either exaggerated or false, now that's not so hard to believe knowing how the world works.

pole_starter
03-08-2006, 06:05 PM
so why are you calling me ignorant if your agreeing with what i say?

Iranian_Mugger
03-08-2006, 06:19 PM
There should also be a "Yes it happened, but it was wholly exaggerated for political gains" option there.

Entz
03-08-2006, 06:31 PM
Where is the option for " The gas chambers killed ALOT less people". However the concentration camps and the ghettos still happened. People always forget about the Russian camps in Russia and the Japanese concentration camps in Canada. Atrocities happen (Africa anyone?) but that doesn't excuse any one to abuse pity. Like the son of a murdered father killing the murderers son - no relation.

Benji Snap
03-08-2006, 06:39 PM
I think it happened, but a LOT less actually died than what they are claiming.

intelligentvirus
03-08-2006, 07:50 PM
it might of happened, but i think its been overdramatically exaggerated. many jews are racists themselves but dont realize it.yet if they even feel slightly offended they will label u "anti semitic" ...very hypocritical behavior.

AlphaMaleness
03-08-2006, 08:31 PM
it might of happened, but i think its been overdramatically exaggerated. many jews are racists themselves but dont realize it.yet if they even feel slightly offended they will label u "anti semitic" ...very hypocritical behavior.


what does it matter if jews are racist

dont try to down play the slaughter and try to go around that the holocaust

AlphaMaleness
03-08-2006, 08:37 PM
I think it happened, but a LOT less actually died than what they are claiming.

what logic is behind lieing about 6 million people dieing. even if 3 million people were killed in theses death cammps it still would be a horrific event.
so the only logic is that they are probably giving the right death count

delta9
03-08-2006, 09:14 PM
so why are you calling me ignorant if your agreeing with what i say?

if you have to even ask then you are ignorant

FatFat Bastard
03-08-2006, 09:25 PM
http://shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/EG1.jpg
http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/EG1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://shamash.org/holocaust/photos/&h=344&w=582&sz=45&hl=en&start=7&tbnid=X12wE6oyZv4ggM:&tbnh=78&tbnw=132&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dholocaust%2Bpics%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3D en%26hs%3DZ3C%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official_s%26sa%3DN

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/EG1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://shamash.org/holocaust/photos/&h=344&w=582&sz=45&hl=en&start=7&tbnid=X12wE6oyZv4ggM:&tbnh=78&tbnw=132&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dholocaust%2Bpics%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3D en%26hs%3DZ3C%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official_s%26sa%3DN

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/EG1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://shamash.org/holocaust/photos/&h=344&w=582&sz=45&hl=en&start=7&tbnid=X12wE6oyZv4ggM:&tbnh=78&tbnw=132&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dholocaust%2Bpics%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3D en%26hs%3DZ3C%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official_s%26sa%3DN


i am split, between never happend or between it being a complete lie or it happend and i still choose to belive it was a complete lie.

:rolleyes:

FatFat Bastard
03-08-2006, 09:28 PM
http://www.holocaust-uddannelse.dk/images/billeder/forside.jpg

ironman1964bc
03-08-2006, 09:57 PM
concentration camps- yes

Jews treated awful- yes

6 million dead- no way, actually the new "official number is around 2.5 mil. If you don't believe me, go visit Auschwitz and they will even tell you that

gassing- no way, gas chambers were built after the war

crematoriums- yes, but used to burn typhus victims

Both sides have their points

Melkor
03-08-2006, 09:59 PM
I lived in Munich Germany for a few years and I went to Dachau (a concentration camp right outside of Munich) as well as travelling to Auschwitz in Poland. These things happened, and who cares if people overdramatize them (which I don't think is true anyway). They were horrendous, beyond the scope of comprehension to a normal person. It is still mind boggling to me to think about the piles of shoes, the piles of teeth, and the piles of bodies. It is very easy to see how 6 million Jews were killed in those camps. The Nazis were very efficient at killing the Jews.

AlphaMaleness
03-08-2006, 10:05 PM
6 million dead- no way, actually the new "official number is around 2.5 mil. If you don't believe me, go visit Auschwitz and they will even tell you that

gassing- no way, gas chambers were built after the war



credible evidence to back up either one of these

FatFat Bastard
03-08-2006, 10:18 PM
concentration camps- yes

Jews treated awful- yes

6 million dead- no way, actually the new "official number is around 2.5 mil. If you don't believe me, go visit Auschwitz and they will even tell you that

gassing- no way, gas chambers were built after the war

crematoriums- yes, but used to burn typhus victims

Both sides have their points

concentration camps- no way

Jews treated awful- did not happen

6 million dead- no way, actually the new "official number is around 25 people

gassing- no way, gas chambers were built after the war

crematoriums- no, such thing




evidece---no, no way, i don't belive in credible evidence ...

Derek0783
03-09-2006, 03:17 AM
I lived in Munich Germany for a few years and I went to Dachau (a concentration camp right outside of Munich) as well as travelling to Auschwitz in Poland. These things happened, and who cares if people overdramatize them (which I don't think is true anyway). They were horrendous, beyond the scope of comprehension to a normal person. It is still mind boggling to me to think about the piles of shoes, the piles of teeth, and the piles of bodies. It is very easy to see how 6 million Jews were killed in those camps. The Nazis were very efficient at killing the Jews.

Prior to this post, I don't think I have ever agreed with anything you've written. But, I must say, as much as i've gotten used to shaking my head at many of you're posts, I fully 100% agree with you on this one.

Anyone else visited Auschwitz or other camps who have a different take than Melkor on this? I think that would be a big fat NOPE!

Patrick Swaze
03-09-2006, 06:34 AM
was the german/jewish holocaust real?

No. It was an elaborate plan lucidly carried out by Bu$h and his cronies in order to get oil from Germany. If you pay attention closely, Germany never really even had concentration camps. The Bu$h administration went over there and secretly killed Hitler, meanwhile taking pictures of a weightloss camp they had in a resort town known as Pretoria. After the pictures were taken and circulated through the press, the Bu$h administration benefitted greatly off of German oil and Weinerschnitzels. So you see, it's all a ploy by the Bu$h administration.








Hey look, I can come up with bull**** conspiracy theories too!

Patrick Swaze
03-09-2006, 06:37 AM
I think it happened, but a LOT less actually died than what they are claiming.
?????????????

photomasterx
03-09-2006, 08:19 AM
no offence to anybody but going to Auschwitz or other camps doesnt mean anything and doesnt make you an expert in how many people where killed in those places :

1. becuase there are no bodies there to examin.
2. everything in those places is pretty much just to shock you.


the only way to know how many jews where killed is to individually examine each and every victim and confirm the total.

i personally belive both the allies and the jews both exagerated hitler and the nazis for there own benifits. the allies said hey look hitlers a war criminal look at how many poeple he kill 6 million jews and the jews where like hey look at how many jews he killed 6 million hey we need a homeland, they both pretty much played each others exageration for there own benifits and the number has now come upto 6 million deaths fact is the numbers started very low and they have been gradually increasing without an increase in physical bodies recovered and now the number is stuck at 6 million.


this is not a conspiracy theory fact is that 6 million is just an estimate of how many could have been killed or are thaught to have been killed but this has never ever been confirmed to be a fact no matter how much you try to spin it and twist it the fact remains that 6 million is just an estimate while the actual body count and physical(the key word here) evidence has shown the kill rate to be much lower, significantly lower then 6 million.

Tim
03-09-2006, 08:29 AM
Yes, the Nazis DID commit genocide, BUT I think that the number of Jews killed was significantly LESS than 6,000,000. In no way am I a Holocaust denier, but I simply think that the 6 million figure is inaccurately high.

riptor
03-09-2006, 08:53 AM
The six million figure comes from population demographics, among other things. If before the war there were three million Jews in Poland, and after the war 300,000 you can be sure that something happened. And they did not all immigrate. I find that explanation laughable, that 12 million people immigrated and nobody knows to where. The conspiracy that Jews orchastrated the whole thing for sympathy is just plain stupid. So six million people are in on a conspiracy, and not one has talked? Sure historians debate on the exact number killed, but the average is six million Jews and six million other people, for a grand total of twelve million. There is ample evidence for the holocaust to have happened, that it is not even worth debate. To deny the holocaust you might as well claim the earth is flat or that the sun revolves around the earth.

1devil
03-09-2006, 10:11 AM
Those that believe that Jews are engaged in some kind of world conspiracy are just out of touch with reality. There are about 20 million Jews worldwide. How does such a small percentage of the world's population manage to have such influence and control.

Much of this nonsense is generated by the Arab world. Essentially what you have is a series of corrupt leaders who rule over large populations of the poor and uneducated. It's very easy to blame their plight on the Jews. It is a situation that very closly resembles the middle ages in Europe. You had a small ruling elite that kept the masses uneducated and uninformed. The current state of the Middle East is a tragedy when you realize that the European Renaissance was triggered by the influences of the Muslim world at that time.

hohandy
03-09-2006, 10:33 AM
Yes, the Nazis DID commit genocide, BUT I think that the number of Jews killed was significantly LESS than 6,000,000. In no way am I a Holocaust denier, but I simply think that the 6 million figure is inaccurately high.


ok - what do you base that on?

ready 2 commit
03-09-2006, 10:45 AM
i know a couple non-jewish people that where involved in this, just as scared and close to death as so many others....u fukkin dip****, of course it was real

VikingMan
03-09-2006, 10:54 AM
I actually met a woman once who had been held in a Nazi concentration camp. She was an old woman, (obviously), and she remembers the brutality. She lost family there, and the haunted look in her eyes when she would talk about the experience.... was pretty scary.

According to her, the Nazis would play hymns over a PA system. As a result of this, she was fiercely against any type of Christianity (understandably so).

So yeah, I believe it happened.

EDIT: She was a Jew from Spain... probably dead now. Who knows though, she was a feisty old lady. Made me laugh.

Charlie Brown
03-09-2006, 11:07 AM
I love how half you have no clue what your talking about and are so cocky and confident that it pisses me off.

Saying its overdramatized. Saying theres no such thing as gas chambers. You guys are talking about your *******. And some of you dont even have respect when you talk about it.

Ive heard a jewish man who was in Auschwitz speak on the subject. I beleive him and what he said. He spoke to our whole school years back.

You guys dont know ****.

Charlie Brown
03-09-2006, 11:26 AM
Yea neg me cause you have no evidence to support your claims.

photomasterx
03-09-2006, 11:28 AM
The six million figure comes from population demographics, among other things. If before the war there were three million Jews in Poland, and after the war 300,000 you can be sure that something happened. And they did not all immigrate. I find that explanation laughable, that 12 million people immigrated and nobody knows to where. The conspiracy that Jews orchastrated the whole thing for sympathy is just plain stupid. So six million people are in on a conspiracy, and not one has talked? Sure historians debate on the exact number killed, but the average is six million Jews and six million other people, for a grand total of twelve million. There is ample evidence for the holocaust to have happened, that it is not even worth debate. To deny the holocaust you might as well claim the earth is flat or that the sun revolves around the earth.

millions of jews moved and sneaked out of there countries. jews also took new identities with new names to escape presecution those are facts. unitl there is solid evidence to prove 6 million no body should be forced to belive it and if they refuse should not be ridiculed for there opinion fact is just becuase a certain amount of people are unaccounted for estimate wise does not mean they are dead they could have changed there identities & names and sneaked out of the country.

i dont have to have the number 6 million shoved down my throught by any jew until they actually come up with solid evidence that 6 million where actually killed. i cant belive in the west where people are supposed to be intelligent and able to think for themselves to instantly belive the 6 million figure.

fact is most people especially in the education world such as teacher,writers,authors etc.... are **** scared of talking about the subject becuase there lives could get destoryed by debating about it and not bowing down to the 6 million figure i personally belive that if there wasnt so many repercussion for having a different number then 6 million people alot more historians and authors would be coming out with different figures to support there side. fact is authors and historians are basically forced into saying 6 million other wise they are discredited by a propaganda campain and would get fired form there jobs. so they say 6 million to keep there jobs and to not cause any proplems for themselves.

photomasterx
03-09-2006, 11:30 AM
Yea neg me cause you have no evidence to support your claims.

i neg repped you becuase your post was stupid.

eg...


Ive heard a jewish man who was in Auschwitz speak on the subject. I beleive him and what he said. He spoke to our whole school years back.

that doesnt mean **** in the real world who cares if he was in a camp doesnt mean he knows about how many people where killed in the holocaust. and just becuase you listned to him doesnt make you an expert either.

Charlie Brown
03-09-2006, 11:42 AM
fact is most people especially in the education world such as teacher,writers,authors etc.... are **** scared of talking about the subject becuase there lives could get destoryed by debating about it and not bowing down to the 6 million figure i personally belive that if there wasnt so many repercussion for having a different number then 6 million people alot more historians and authors would be coming out with different figures to support there side. fact is authors and historians are basically forced into saying 6 million other wise they are discredited by a propaganda campain and would get fired form there jobs. so they say 6 million to keep there jobs and to not cause any proplems for themselves.

This is America. The press will destroy you but that never stops people from doing things. People like Michael Moore arent afraid to shout out radical ideas. Im pretty sure if an author writes about a different number than 6 million jews higher or lower he/she wont be torn apart. I hear authors talk on c span about their books and some of them have ideas that the majority of people dont agree on.

Still have no facts or anything.

And I never said listneing to that guy had anything to do with me being an expert or the number of people that died. That had to do with the thread topic. I said I believed it.

Entz
03-09-2006, 11:54 AM
was the german/jewish holocaust real?

No. It was an elaborate plan lucidly carried out by Bu$h and his cronies in order to get oil from Germany. If you pay attention closely, Germany never really even had concentration camps. The Bu$h administration went over there and secretly killed Hitler, meanwhile taking pictures of a weightloss camp they had in a resort town known as Pretoria. After the pictures were taken and circulated through the press, the Bu$h administration benefitted greatly off of German oil and Weinerschnitzels. So you see, it's all a ploy by the Bu$h administration



Hey look, I can come up with bull**** conspiracy theories too!
On a side note Ford financially supported Hitlers campaign to become the power in Germany. *** provided a way to catalogue the jews(to killl more of them more efficiently). Coca Cola created a company called "Crush" so they could sell their product in German without being accused of trading with an enemy. This is no bs according to the information I was presented with (some even on major TV broadcasts and historians websites) ...

hohandy
03-09-2006, 12:07 PM
i dont have to have the number 6 million shoved down my throught by any jew until they actually come up with solid evidence that 6 million where actually killed. i cant belive in the west where people are supposed to be intelligent and able to think for themselves to instantly belive the 6 million figure.

If yuo have reputable sources or expertise, then go right ahead and show something else. The Nurenburg Trial - which had access to all the documents and testimony from those who were there found that "the policy pursued [by the German government] resulted in the killing of six million Jews, of which four million were killed in the extermination institutions."

(Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the International Military Tribunal (IMT "blue series"), Vol. 22, p. 496.)

The Nazis kept fairly meticulous records - not necessarily records of everyone they killed - but who they rounded up and when, and where they were sent. The railroad records show that millions of people were sent to the death camps - yet only a few thousand were found at each camp when they were liberated. So what happened to them? For your explanation to be credible, one would have to beleive that in the middle of war-torn Europe millions of people stripped of their possessions and on the verge of starvation managed to successfully escape from the camps, cross the continent in the middle of a war and successfully flee to foreign countries thousands of miles away amd all without leaving any trace. But that Nurenburg Tribunal really had the wool pulled over their eyes!.

1devil
03-09-2006, 12:26 PM
millions of jews moved and sneaked out of there countries. jews also took new identities with new names to escape presecution those are facts. unitl there is solid evidence to prove 6 million no body should be forced to belive it and if they refuse should not be ridiculed for there opinion fact is just becuase a certain amount of people are unaccounted for estimate wise does not mean they are dead they could have changed there identities & names and sneaked out of the country.

i dont have to have the number 6 million shoved down my throught by any jew until they actually come up with solid evidence that 6 million where actually killed. i cant belive in the west where people are supposed to be intelligent and able to think for themselves to instantly belive the 6 million figure.

fact is most people especially in the education world such as teacher,writers,authors etc.... are **** scared of talking about the subject becuase there lives could get destoryed by debating about it and not bowing down to the 6 million figure i personally belive that if there wasnt so many repercussion for having a different number then 6 million people alot more historians and authors would be coming out with different figures to support there side. fact is authors and historians are basically forced into saying 6 million other wise they are discredited by a propaganda campain and would get fired form there jobs. so they say 6 million to keep there jobs and to not cause any proplems for themselves.
It amazes me that people are even debating this topic. Even if only 2 million or three million were exteriminated how is that not an appalling number. This discussion is not just about Jews. It is about genocide. The fact that millions of people were killed simply based on their religion is extremely frightening. Any group can become a target at any time. How is using the Holocaust as a reminder to everyone propaganda.

ironman1964bc
03-09-2006, 01:07 PM
credible evidence to back up either one of these

The last time I posted an article on the holocaust, I was banned for a month, so I am not going there. Just go to rense.com and you will have a month's worth of reading about the holocaust. Contrary to the rense haters here, there are articles supporting both sides of the arguement. There is a new article there discussing the effects of the zyklon B gas used and how careful you had to be when you are working around the stuff. The stuff will even get through your skin if you don't have the protection. Alot of posters here rationilize that the Germans didn't care if some Jews died (cleaning the dead bodies out of the chambers) because they got exposed to the gas second hand. That is a weak arguement because in order for the Germans to have killed that many Jews, bodies had to be continously taken out of the gas chambers without anyone suffering any ill effects. Somebody has got to clean that chamber out to get ready for the next gassing. If the "clean up crew" was getting sick or dying too, then how the hell could they get the chamber ready to use again?

There are 2 things about the holocaust that I have always found interesting.......
1) DeGaulle, Churchill, and Eisonhower all wrote books after the war and not one of them mentioned a word about the gassing of Jews.
2) "The diary of Anne Frank" is a book that the holocaust supporters have used to support their agenda for years. The funny thing is....in the book, Anne and her mother die from typhus and her father survived until 1980. I am sorry but typhus and getting gassed are 2 different things.

By the way, Zundel just got 3 years in jail for speaking out against the holocaust, which is against the law in Germany, Austria, Canada, and a few other places. This iron fist grip on holocaust deniers is what has kept the truth from coming out after all these years.

Melkor
03-09-2006, 01:30 PM
no offence to anybody but going to Auschwitz or other camps doesnt mean anything and doesnt make you an expert in how many people where killed in those places :

1. becuase there are no bodies there to examin.
2. everything in those places is pretty much just to shock you.

...

this is not a conspiracy theory fact is that 6 million is just an estimate of how many could have been killed or are thaught to have been killed but this has never ever been confirmed to be a fact no matter how much you try to spin it and twist it the fact remains that 6 million is just an estimate while the actual body count and physical(the key word here) evidence has shown the kill rate to be much lower, significantly lower then 6 million.
If you read my post again you will notice I specifically said I didn't know if the 6,000,000 number was accurate, but that it was definitely possible. Unbiased historians don't agree on a number, but 6 million is a generally agreed upon "average" number of Jews killed. Some estimates are much higher, and others are lower. The lowest (unbiased) estimate I could find was still almost 3 million, which is an incredible number of people anyway.

1devil
03-09-2006, 01:33 PM
The last time I posted an article on the holocaust, I was banned for a month, so I am not going there. Just go to rense.com and you will have a month's worth of reading about the holocaust. Contrary to the rense haters here, there are articles supporting both sides of the arguement. There is a new article there discussing the effects of the zyklon B gas used and how careful you had to be when you are working around the stuff. The stuff will even get through your skin if you don't have the protection. Alot of posters here rationilize that the Germans didn't care if some Jews died (cleaning the dead bodies out of the chambers) because they got exposed to the gas second hand. That is a weak arguement because in order for the Germans to have killed that many Jews, bodies had to be continously taken out of the gas chambers without anyone suffering any ill effects. Somebody has got to clean that chamber out to get ready for the next gassing. If the "clean up crew" was getting sick or dying too, then how the hell could they get the chamber ready to use again?

There are 2 things about the holocaust that I have always found interesting.......
1) DeGaulle, Churchill, and Eisonhower all wrote books after the war and not one of them mentioned a word about the gassing of Jews.
2) "The diary of Anne Frank" is a book that the holocaust supporters have used to support their agenda for years. The funny thing is....in the book, Anne and her mother die from typhus and her father survived until 1980. I am sorry but typhus and getting gassed are 2 different things.

By the way, Zundel just got 3 years in jail for speaking out against the holocaust, which is against the law in Germany, Austria, Canada, and a few other places. This iron fist grip on holocaust deniers is what has kept the truth from coming out after all these years.
We Jews must be the world's greatest managers. Twenty million of us have managed to find a way to control and manipulate the rest of the world's population. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound.

AlphaMaleness
03-09-2006, 02:57 PM
The last time I posted an article on the holocaust, I was banned for a month, .


wtf why were you banned??

A & B
03-09-2006, 03:41 PM
It's unfortunate that despite the abundance of evidence, survivor testimonies and such, that people still believe it is some sort of "hoax" that has managed to "fool" all of the worlds foremost historians.

However, if someone takes issue with the number of Jews who were killed, I can't see how this is in any way "anti-semitic". I mean, even historians disagree on this point. No one will ever know for certain, but if someone believes Eichmann and Himmler killed 3 million instead of 6 million, who cares?

As well, I don't see it as anti-Semitic to claim that Zionist and Jewish organizations today have, at times, exploited the memory of the Holocaust (deliberately or not) to further their own gains today. I'm a firm believer that this happens, and it's a tragedy that past sufferings are at times exploited today. I'm sure I'll get a neg rep for saying this though.

One last point. I see absolutely no harm in discussing anything to do with the Holocaust, including denying the Holocaust ever happened. This is a free and democratic society, and inherent to the nature of such a society demands that whether or not you disagree with what someone says, it is perfectly within their rights to say it.

If we censor issues like this, if we don't allow for dissenting opinions, or if we attack those who dissent, if we allow for only one single interpretation of history, then we have failed as a democratic society.

The fact that we are talking about an extremely sensitive subject only makes it even more important that we recognize everyone's freedom to believe what they want, and express it.

Charlie Brown
03-09-2006, 04:07 PM
2) "The diary of Anne Frank" is a book that the holocaust supporters have used to support their agenda for years. The funny thing is....in the book, Anne and her mother die from typhus and her father survived until 1980. I am sorry but typhus and getting gassed are 2 different things.

.

How is that interesting? Theyre just another family that was malnourished, overworked and in poor conditions. They were in a disease ridden place. What are the chances they didnt get some sort of sickness.

The nazis didnt gas them all. Some camps didnt even have gas chambers. The point for them was to die slowly and painfully. Gas chambers just sped up the process of Hitlers plot to destroy the jews from Europe.

The major camps where were they were sent because they gassed people and killed them often. But there were other camps without these chambers where they just stayed untill they died or were sent to another camp.

novax
03-09-2006, 04:09 PM
concentration camps- yes

Jews treated awful- yes

6 million dead- no way, actually the new "official number is around 2.5 mil. If you don't believe me, go visit Auschwitz and they will even tell you that

gassing- no way, gas chambers were built after the war

crematoriums- yes, but used to burn typhus victims

Both sides have their points


Nazi man is back.


lol

novax
03-09-2006, 04:11 PM
wtf why were you banned??


Because, he is pro-nazi. He jusified that Germany was not the agressors and that Germany was ritrous during WWII.

He also said a bunch of racist comments.

novax
03-09-2006, 04:12 PM
Oh yeah. I think Ironman also posted "facts" off of storm front.

AlphaMaleness
03-09-2006, 04:13 PM
Because, he is pro-nazi. He jusified that Germany was not the agressors and that Germany was ritrous during WWII.

He also said a bunch of racist comments.

nice ive been banned twice

once rasists comments.
the other time making fun of "homosexual people".

novax
03-09-2006, 04:17 PM
nice ive been banned twice

once rasists comments.
the other time making fun of "homosexual people".

Then you two would get along just fine.

AlphaMaleness
03-09-2006, 04:19 PM
Then you two would get along just fine.

nice

but i just used the word "homos" and i got banned

quite retarded

Tim
03-09-2006, 04:19 PM
ok - what do you base that on?
Well, I could give you evidence, but I really don't want to get banned again, so I will keep my mouth shut.

A & B
03-09-2006, 04:22 PM
ironman reads stupid **** off rense.com, which is not something which I would call a credible source. In fact, nobody in acedemia would call it a credible source, but he believes it because he wants to believe it.

But if he read a book based on original research about the Holocaust (of which there are many), because he doesn't want to believe it, he won't. Even though it is far more thorough and well researched and credible.

intelligentvirus
03-09-2006, 05:29 PM
what does it matter if jews are racist

dont try to down play the slaughter and try to go around that the holocaust

im not trying to say it didnt exist. im saying for the racist jews that insult minorities in america that complain about the holocaust , they are hypocrites. so i really dont feel any sympathy for them.

on the other hand , whether 6 million jews were killed is quite debatable. theres multiple german sources stating 6 million executions are a false number.

AlphaMaleness
03-09-2006, 05:32 PM
im not trying to say it didnt exist. im saying for the racist jews that insult minorities in america that complain about the holocaust , they are hypocrites. so i really dont feel any sympathy for them.

o sry i dindt understand what u meant

sry about that

GPAONEG
03-09-2006, 07:08 PM
Everyine feels bad for the Jews, but what aout the Russians? About 20 million Russians died under Stalin's reigne, compared to 8 million by Hitler.

And don't forget about the indians here in the USA. There's barely any left.

AlphaMaleness
03-09-2006, 07:11 PM
Everyine feels bad for the Jews, but what aout the Russians? About 20 million Russians died under Stalin's reigne, compared to 8 million by Hitler.

And don't forget about the indians here in the USA. There's barely any left.

dont forget about the chinese under communism
or the armenian genocide or the kurds in iraq or the aztecs by the spanish or the african american slaves or the south american natives

riptor
03-09-2006, 08:38 PM
millions of jews moved and sneaked out of there countries. jews also took new identities with new names to escape presecution those are facts. unitl there is solid evidence to prove 6 million no body should be forced to belive it and if they refuse should not be ridiculed for there opinion fact is just becuase a certain amount of people are unaccounted for estimate wise does not mean they are dead they could have changed there identities & names and sneaked out of the country.
Some credible sources for this would be nice. So not one has come foward and admitted it was all a big hoax? Ben Franklin once said "Three people can keep a secret if two of them are dead." I have a very hard time believing that millions of people could keep a secret.



i dont have to have the number 6 million shoved down my throught by any jew until they actually come up with solid evidence that 6 million where actually killed. i cant belive in the west where people are supposed to be intelligent and able to think for themselves to instantly belive the 6 million figure.
As others have stated, six million is used as an average number. We will never know for sure how many people were killed. Honest debate about details is one thing, denying something that has overwhelming evidence is something else.



fact is most people especially in the education world such as teacher,writers,authors etc.... are **** scared of talking about the subject becuase there lives could get destoryed by debating about it and not bowing down to the 6 million figure i personally belive that if there wasnt so many repercussion for having a different number then 6 million people alot more historians and authors would be coming out with different figures to support there side. fact is authors and historians are basically forced into saying 6 million other wise they are discredited by a propaganda campain and would get fired form there jobs. so they say 6 million to keep there jobs and to not cause any proplems for themselves.
Most people in the education world say the holocaust occured simply because it did. There is no conspiracy to it. As others have said, many historians will say different numbers. As long as they have some evidence to back up their claims, evidence that comes from facts and not beleifs, then they have the right to make claims. Most historians do not doubt the existence of the holocaust.

riptor
03-09-2006, 08:43 PM
It's unfortunate that despite the abundance of evidence, survivor testimonies and such, that people still believe it is some sort of "hoax" that has managed to "fool" all of the worlds foremost historians.
I agree.



One last point. I see absolutely no harm in discussing anything to do with the Holocaust, including denying the Holocaust ever happened. This is a free and democratic society, and inherent to the nature of such a society demands that whether or not you disagree with what someone says, it is perfectly within their rights to say it.

If we censor issues like this, if we don't allow for dissenting opinions, or if we attack those who dissent, if we allow for only one single interpretation of history, then we have failed as a democratic society.

The fact that we are talking about an extremely sensitive subject only makes it even more important that we recognize everyone's freedom to believe what they want, and express it.
Once again I agree. But people who make extraordinary claims need to have extraordinary evidence. I also think that no idea, how farfetched, should be banned. But I will say that not all opinions and ideas need to be given equal consideration. Opinions and ideas based upon facts and evidence should be given more credence than ones based upon belief. Though I agree that people have the right to deny the holocaust, or deny that the earth revolves around the sun, their opinions need not be given the same level of acceptance until some very good evidence comes forth to justify what they are saying.

ironman1964bc
03-09-2006, 10:51 PM
wtf why were you banned??

I was banned for posting an article that explained that the gas chambers at Auschwitz were built after the war was over. The funny thing is even the Auschwitz museum admits the gas chambers are not original. I also caught some flak because I posted that the plaque at Auschwitz had changed their number of dead from 4 million to 1.5 million back in the late 1980's. There is nothing anti-Jewish about what I said, I was just posting facts that holocaust supporters can't even deny.

In regards to rense.com, they don't write the articles posted there, they just find articles from newspapers and authors all over the world that the mainstream media will not report. Yes, some of them are a little whacky but you can't bunch them all together like that. In fact, the guy that runs rense.com is pro-Jewish.

Melkor
03-09-2006, 10:55 PM
Auschwitz estimates that approximately 1.5 million Jews were killed in Auschwitz alone. What does that prove?

The Germans burned down/destroyed quite a lot of evidence regarding the Holocaust, that doesn't mean it didn't happen. The gas chambers were destroyed when the Germans left, but they rebuilt them to show people what happens when ignorance is exploited.

novax
03-10-2006, 04:12 AM
nice

but i just used the word "homos" and i got banned

quite retarded


Oh. I use that word all the time. I think its common to say that is H... Pretty common really.

A & B
03-10-2006, 11:55 AM
I often wonder, how come nobody ever denies that the Armenian, Native American, Ukranian, Asian, Congoleese... genocides/holocausts took place?

How come the only one which people dispute just happens to be the one where Jews were killed?

Thy_Kingdom
03-10-2006, 12:15 PM
I often wonder, how come nobody ever denies that the Armenian, Native American, Ukranian, Asian, Congoleese... genocides/holocausts took place?

How come the only one which people dispute just happens to be the one where Jews were killed?
It's probably because the Jewish Holocaust is the only one that's been drilled into our heads since we were children.

A & B
03-10-2006, 12:21 PM
It's probably because the Jewish Holocaust is the only one that's been drilled into our heads since we were children.

Perhaps. But that's something else I take issue with.

It seems the Nazi Holocaust casts a shadow over all other genocides in recent history. I think that a lot of other attrocities are glossed over in the public education system, and the public sphere. And I don't agree with that. The slogan "never again" is a great one, but we have had genocide's since the Nazi Holocaust that haven't even made the front page until everything was over.

I've been called a "self-hating Jew" on occassion for saying this before. That the public sphere and education system ignore other attrocities, but never the Nazi Holocaust. Which is obviously important to remember and learn, but if it's the only genocide we learn about, we're kind of missing the point.

I don't recall learning about the Asian holocaust in highschool, or the Armenian genocide for example...

1devil
03-10-2006, 12:30 PM
Perhaps. But that's something else I take issue with.

It seems the Nazi Holocaust casts a shadow over all other genocides in recent history. I think that a lot of other attrocities are glossed over in the public education system, and the public sphere. And I don't agree with that. The slogan "never again" is a great one, but we have had genocide's since the Nazi Holocaust that haven't even made the front page until everything was over.

I've been called a "self-hating Jew" on occassion for saying this before. That the public sphere and education system ignore other attrocities, but never the Nazi Holocaust. Which is obviously important to remember and learn, but if it's the only genocide we learn about, we're kind of missing the point.

I don't recall learning about the Asian holocaust in highschool, or the Armenian genocide for example...

I think the reason the Holocaust garners so much attention is because no other genocide on that scale has occured in recent memory. Recent atrococities have occurred in Rwanda, Cambodia etc. However, none were on the scale of the Holocaust. That said, I am no less horrified by those events. As a Jew I don't see the Holocaust is not an opportunity to give the world a collective guilt trip. It is an opportunity to learn a lesson. Obviously the world has not learned this lesson.

A & B
03-10-2006, 12:35 PM
I think the reason the Holocaust garners so much attention is because no other genocide on that scale has occured in recent memory. Recent atrococities have occurred in Rwanda, Cambodia etc. However, none were on the scale of the Holocaust. That said, I am no less horrified by those events. As a Jew I don't see the Holocaust is not an opportunity to give the world a collective guilt trip. It is an opportunity to learn a lesson. Obviously the world has not learned this lesson.

True, I can't think of anything on a comparable scale since.

But I don't like to compare say 1 million deaths with 5 or 6 million. I my opinion, neither is "worse" than the other. When you start talking about MILLIONS of deaths, figures become almost abstract. It's the very idea to me.

I also really take offense when people compare things like My Lai or Deir Yassin to the Holocaust. There is no comparisson, but people try to make it.

Steadfast50
03-10-2006, 01:54 PM
It happened. Amazing how foolish people can be to think it didn't. Or to try and make others believe it didn't in the name of hatred, or somebody's god.

AlphaMaleness
03-10-2006, 01:59 PM
I often wonder, how come nobody ever denies that the Armenian, Native American, Ukranian, Asian, Congoleese... genocides/holocausts took place?

How come the only one which people dispute just happens to be the one where Jews were killed?


Actually the armenian genocide is denied by many countries. It is not as wide spread in America so not many Americans talk or even know about it.

But I understand what you are talking about. Jews have been pursected for many centuries and it continues to this day.

intelligentvirus
03-10-2006, 02:46 PM
True, I can't think of anything on a comparable scale since.

But I don't like to compare say 1 million deaths with 5 or 6 million. I my opinion, neither is "worse" than the other. When you start talking about MILLIONS of deaths, figures become almost abstract. It's the very idea to me.

I also really take offense when people compare things like My Lai or Deir Yassin to the Holocaust. There is no comparisson, but people try to make it.

Read about Stalin and Maos regimes. Try 30 - 40 millions massacred. man read about some history around the world.

1devil
03-10-2006, 02:50 PM
Read about Stalin and Maos regimes. Try 30 - 40 millions massacred. man read about some history around the world.
Poor comparison. These were people killed in the name of political order. Most were not targeted because of religion or ethnicity. As such they could not be labled genocide.

A & B
03-10-2006, 02:57 PM
Read about Stalin and Maos regimes. Try 30 - 40 millions massacred. man read about some history around the world.

Dude, you're not telling me anything I don't know. I'm a military history major, all I do is read about this ****, I love it.



Poor comparison. These were people killed in the name of political order. Most were not targeted because of religion or ethnicity. As such they could not be labled genocide.

Why?

I have to say, I don't care why people are targetted. I don't care if they belong to a specific ethnic or religious group or not. I don't think you can elevate one genocide above others because of who was targetted and why.

Pol Pot, King Leopold, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, it's all the same. Mass murder is mass murder. All genocide's are unique in their own right, but they are all the same.

I can't elevate one above any other because of the specific nature of that genocide. I don't care who was targetted or why.

Is killing 5 million people of one ethnic group worse than killing 5 million people indiscriminately? I don't think so.

intelligentvirus
03-10-2006, 03:02 PM
Poor comparison. These were people killed in the name of political order. Most were not targeted because of religion or ethnicity. As such they could not be labled genocide.

gen·o·cide (jĕn'ə-sīd') pronunciation
n.
The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.

Clearly , it is genocide.

And you are aware in the same way you can say Jews were killed in the name of political order.

1devil
03-10-2006, 03:17 PM
gen·o·cide (jĕn'ə-sīd') pronunciation
n.
The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.

Clearly , it is genocide.

And you are aware in the same way you can say Jews were killed in the name of political order.
I'm going to retract my previous statement on the basis that it was not welll thought out.

AlphaMaleness
03-10-2006, 04:43 PM
Dude, you're not telling me anything I don't know. I'm a military history major, all I do is read about this ****, I love it.
.

did you really major in that?

If so i hope i major in something of that nature when i get to college.

A & B
03-11-2006, 05:42 AM
did you really major in that?

If so i hope i major in something of that nature when i get to college.

I'm in uni. now. And yes, military history is just as cool as it sounds. :D

Tim
03-11-2006, 07:30 AM
The Jewish Holocaust was one of many genocides. There have been other racial genocides of similar proportions throughout history, up through modern time. I saw Hotel Rwanda last night (hadn't even heard of it before), and was impressed that a movie was actually made about a genocide other than the Jewish Holocaust. The other genocides are equally tragic.

novax
03-11-2006, 07:33 AM
The Jewish Holocaust was one of many genocides. There have been other racial genocides of similar proportions throughout history, up through modern time. I saw Hotel Rwanda last night (hadn't even heard of it before), and was impressed that a movie was actually made about a genocide other than the Jewish Holocaust. The other genocides are equally tragic.


Thats a great movie. Kind of sad and very disturbing though.

Thy_Kingdom
03-11-2006, 08:21 AM
True, I can't think of anything on a comparable scale since.

But I don't like to compare say 1 million deaths with 5 or 6 million. I my opinion, neither is "worse" than the other. When you start talking about MILLIONS of deaths, figures become almost abstract. It's the very idea to me.

I also really take offense when people compare things like My Lai or Deir Yassin to the Holocaust. There is no comparisson, but people try to make it.
As nations, when we reach figures that high; be it 1 million or 6 million, we should never allow numbers to dictate whether we will act or not.
The phrase ''Never Again'' has been one that I've grown up hating my entire life. It's another political phrase that means absolutely nothing.


I agree with many of your posts, and not just because we're both from ottawa. Do you go to RMC?

A & B
03-11-2006, 09:40 AM
The Jewish Holocaust was one of many genocides. There have been other racial genocides of similar proportions throughout history, up through modern time. I saw Hotel Rwanda last night (hadn't even heard of it before), and was impressed that a movie was actually made about a genocide other than the Jewish Holocaust. The other genocides are equally tragic.

Read Romeo Dallaire's book "Shake Hands with the Devil", it covers the Rwandan genocide and civil war quite comprehensively, and is very readable.

Thy_Kingdom
03-11-2006, 09:59 AM
Read Romeo Dallaire's book "Shake Hands with the Devil", it covers the Rwandan genocide and civil war quite comprehensively, and is very readable.
I've seen the documentary on CBC a few months back, it was pretty freaky. Apparently the character in the movie Hotel Rwanada; the General, was based loosely on him.

A & B
03-11-2006, 10:40 AM
I've seen the documentary on CBC a few months back, it was pretty freaky. Apparently the character in the movie Hotel Rwanada; the General, was based loosely on him.

The Nick Nolte character?

I dunno, that's what I had heard, but I don't know. I thought it was a good movie, but it didn't really focus too much on either the civil war, or the extent of the genocide. Not to mention all the problems Dallaire had with the UN, which he emphasizes frequently in his book.

But yeah, that CBC documentary was quite good.

PumpAndGrow
03-11-2006, 10:45 AM
You know what hitler said that he thought justified the holocaust? He said "Who remembers the armenian genocide" The "holocaust" is the only genocide that we are taught about since we were children. Thats all you see on TV. But yes an attempted extermination did occur. Im not sure about the facts though

reflexions
03-11-2006, 10:52 AM
heres a very contraversial pole that may pizz off many but i gotta do it
interesting subject

the holocaust was unfortunatly very real, something we should remember that it wernt only the jews murdered, alot more races had their lifes taken,

there is overwhelming evidance that proves it happend, its just new age nazi's have now been sayings for years how it was all properganda, i personally believe they say this to cause trouble