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View Full Version : Low thyroid, how to start clean bulk?



psixcr
02-07-2008, 10:54 AM
Short version
After dieting aggresively and suffering lowered metabolism (e.g. my thyroid bloodwork came back at TSH=1.63, FT4=10 and FT3=1.7, with morning temp at 36.0 C, 96.8 F), how do you guys/gals add in the calories again to prevent excessive fat gain and to recover the thyroid? Stagger? How fast? How much?

Long version
Below is my story, and I am in dire need of help to put on some mass. It's a bit long, but I would be truly thankful if someone could help me out.

I just finished up my fat loss with decent results (see picture if you?re interested), but on the other hand I got a bit eager and pushed myself too hard for the last 4 weeks which got me pretty beaten up. I started my cut at 2000 kcal/day and finished at 1600 kcal with carbs cycling between 100-150 grams.

Got some bloodwork done which showed what was written above. Also, I did have a low count of white blood cells. Is this typical values when a diet has been stressed? Got lots of more tests done if something is of interest.

Coming off 1600 kcal I have been at 1800 (P30/C50/F20) and 2000 for one week respectively and I think I might have lost some more weight or been stable. Energy is up a bit, but still feeling sluggish, sore and cold.

My goal is a good clean bulk for the upcoming years (thinking long term sucess here). Hypertrophy training with the strength gains that accompanies it and if nescessary, shorther cycles of cutting just to keep bodyfat in check.

I am 23, 5"9', 132 lb. Currently lifting 4 x/week (Upper/lower split, only compound exercise, with 8x5 on heavy days and 4x10 on lighter/explosive days. Can post workouts if you want...). I am still keeping up with cardio on rest days (45 min elliptical at 70-75% of max HR or 30 min HIIT), but looking to scale this down a bit.

Can you please help me on the right track? What concerns me most is how I should proceed dietwise the coming weeks as to recover my thyroid and not pack on the fat. How much calories and how fast should I add them? Would you suggest some other macros for me?

Trainingwise, should I drop the cardio to 2x20-30 min HIIT/week right away or is it a good strategy do some more to prevent fat gain? For my goals and with my background (see below), would I be better of on a program like Rippetoes Starting Strength or Bill Starr 5x5 then this split? I have been lifting weights between the ages of 15-17, then marathon training and competing for the years up until I started lifting again 3 months ago (Waterburys TBT, 3xFullbody/week). My marathontraining has been extensive (80-100 miles/week) and I think I have a good ability to recover when not dieting. I am not going to take up running again.

All other tips, suggestions and motivation is more than welcome!

Thanks in advance!

psixcr
02-07-2008, 09:11 PM
BUMP

Please, anyone?

BradleyS
02-07-2008, 09:19 PM
I don't have the perfect answer for you, but at this point you need mass. I'm not trying to come off as insulting. Don't worry so much about your bodyfat at the moment, as when you have more muscle it will be easier to cut. I'm not saying to go on a crazy dirty bulk or anything.

If I was in your scenario I would start at 2,300 daily and see where that takes you. You might want to consider adding 100-200 after a week or two if you don't experience gains

Tussmann57
02-07-2008, 09:19 PM
a good idea is to slowly tapper your calorie intake up week by week

even if its from 1800-1900-1950-2000-2050-2100-2150-2200 ect....

this will allow your body to adjust.

If your routine is going good than by all means keep it up, but I would do a begginer routine if i was you to build a solid base.

Always keep your cardio up, this will allow your to push more weight because your cardiovascular health is so good.

Sibrek
02-07-2008, 09:28 PM
You need to dirty bulk. You look sick

labradarep
02-07-2008, 09:48 PM
WOW! why did you start to lean out in the first place? (not judging you, just curious).

Here are some suggestions:
1) Eliminate all plastic sources ( store and warm up everything in glass dishes, Use cast iron skillets or or stainless steel or the very expensive non stick skillets that do not release heavy metals(titanium) into your food. (Ceramic coated).

2)DO NOT EAT SOY PRODUCTS!

3) Get tested for Heavy Metal Toxicity ( ask your Doctor to do DMPS testing) ( 2-3-dimercaptopropane-1-sulfonate)

Here are some nutrients that help with Thyroid Function:
L-Tyrosine, Iodine (these first 2 combine for thyroid hormone sysnthesis), Bacopa, Guggulsterones, Selenium, Zinc, Coleus forskohlii

Hope this helps?

Sim882
02-08-2008, 12:56 AM
At ur weight, ur going to have a low maintenance. U said u were losing weight even at 2000K after dieting.

It sounds like to me that ur metabolism isn't that slow relative to LBM.

Just slowly increase calories - 200 per week or something like that, until u get to 2800, which is probably all u need to bulk given ur weight



Short version
After dieting aggresively and suffering lowered metabolism (e.g. my thyroid bloodwork came back at TSH=1.63, FT4=10 and FT3=1.7, with morning temp at 36.0 C, 96.8 F), how do you guys/gals add in the calories again to prevent excessive fat gain and to recover the thyroid? Stagger? How fast? How much?

Long version
Below is my story, and I am in dire need of help to put on some mass. It's a bit long, but I would be truly thankful if someone could help me out.

I just finished up my fat loss with decent results (see picture if you?re interested), but on the other hand I got a bit eager and pushed myself too hard for the last 4 weeks which got me pretty beaten up. I started my cut at 2000 kcal/day and finished at 1600 kcal with carbs cycling between 100-150 grams.

Got some bloodwork done which showed what was written above. Also, I did have a low count of white blood cells. Is this typical values when a diet has been stressed? Got lots of more tests done if something is of interest.

Coming off 1600 kcal I have been at 1800 (P30/C50/F20) and 2000 for one week respectively and I think I might have lost some more weight or been stable. Energy is up a bit, but still feeling sluggish, sore and cold.

My goal is a good clean bulk for the upcoming years (thinking long term sucess here). Hypertrophy training with the strength gains that accompanies it and if nescessary, shorther cycles of cutting just to keep bodyfat in check.

I am 23, 5"9', 132 lb. Currently lifting 4 x/week (Upper/lower split, only compound exercise, with 8x5 on heavy days and 4x10 on lighter/explosive days. Can post workouts if you want...). I am still keeping up with cardio on rest days (45 min elliptical at 70-75% of max HR or 30 min HIIT), but looking to scale this down a bit.

Can you please help me on the right track? What concerns me most is how I should proceed dietwise the coming weeks as to recover my thyroid and not pack on the fat. How much calories and how fast should I add them? Would you suggest some other macros for me?

Trainingwise, should I drop the cardio to 2x20-30 min HIIT/week right away or is it a good strategy do some more to prevent fat gain? For my goals and with my background (see below), would I be better of on a program like Rippetoes Starting Strength or Bill Starr 5x5 then this split? I have been lifting weights between the ages of 15-17, then marathon training and competing for the years up until I started lifting again 3 months ago (Waterburys TBT, 3xFullbody/week). My marathontraining has been extensive (80-100 miles/week) and I think I have a good ability to recover when not dieting. I am not going to take up running again.

All other tips, suggestions and motivation is more than welcome!

Thanks in advance!

psixcr
02-08-2008, 05:10 AM
Thanks! I'm taking your advice and will continue to progressively add calories. I'm going up to 2200 today.

As for training, I started on Rippetoes today since my previous split was way to extensive and may actually have contributed to my current deprived state. Did my first workout this morning, massive weights being heaved around! =)

Squat 3x5@104,5 lb
Bench 3x5@82,5 lb
Deadlift 1x5@181,5 lb
Dips 2x5@BW
Decline situps with 5 sec pause 3x5@BW

My body temperature is really, really low however; 96.6 (35.9 C) upon awakening and 93.2! (34.0) 3 hours after my first meal which consisted of oatmeal, cocoa and cottage cheese (43 P, 85 C and 12 F). No wonder I feel like crap from time to time. Now after lunch I feel better, but still like **** (temp at 97.7 now). Any ideas what's up? Must be the thyroid levels? Has anyone experienced this?

labradarep

Will look into your specific tips!

Why I did it? Skewed self image for sure. Have always wanted to be "ripped", but first now do I realize that I have nothing to show. I also have a bit of loose skin since I have been overweight in my early teens (inactive and eating **** then).

But the last few days has dramatically changed how I see myself. I am starting to see the "Auswitch refugee" that some people have told me that I look like. And truly I think that's one huge step towards recovery and a better me! However, I have never REALLY starved myself or that kind of stuff, but I have certainly pushed the envelope with lots of training and obsessive clean eating.

More input, tips and motivation? I am very thankful!

MATT2388
02-08-2008, 07:19 AM
P R Health Sci J. 2006 Mar;25(1):23-9.

Supraphysiological cyclic dosing of sustained release T3 in order to reset low basal body temperature.

Friedman M, Miranda-Massari JR, Gonzalez MJ.

Friedman Clinic, Montpelier, VT, USA.

The use of sustained release tri-iodothyronine (SR-T3) in clinical practice, has gained popularity in the complementary and alternative medical community in the treatment of chronic fatigue with a protocol (WT3) pioneered by Dr. Denis Wilson. The WT3 protocol involves the use of SR-T3 taken orally by the patient every 12 hours according to a cyclic dose schedule determined by patient response. The patient is then weaned once a body temperature of 98.6 degrees F has been maintained for 3 consecutive weeks. The symptoms associated with this protocol have been given the name Wilson's Temperature Syndrome (WTS). There have been clinical studies using T3 in patients who are euthyroid based on normal TSH values. However, this treatment has created a controversy in the conventional medical community, especially with the American Thyroid Association, because it is not based on a measured deficiency of thyroid hormone. However, just as estrogen and progesterone are prescribed to regulate menstrual cycles in patients who have normal serum hormone levels, the WT3 therapy can be used to regulate metabolism despite normal serum thyroid hormone levels. SR-T3 prescription is based exclusively on low body temperature and presentation of symptoms. Decreased T3 function exerts widespread effects throughout the body. It can decrease serotonin and growth hormone levels and increase the number of adrenal hormone receptor sites. These effects may explain some of the symptoms observed in WTS. The dysregulation of neuroendocrine function may begin to explain such symptoms as alpha intrusion into slow wave sleep, decrease in blood flow to the brain, alterations in carbohydrate metabolism, fatigue, myalgia and arthralgia, depression and cognitive dysfunction. Despite all thermoregulatory control mechanisms of the body and the complex metabolic processes involved, WT3 therapy seems a valuable tool to re-establish normal body functions. We report the results of 11 patients who underwent the WT3 protocol for the treatment of CFS. All the patients improved in the five symptoms measured. All patients increased their basal temperature. The recovery time varied from 3 weeks to 12 months.

PMID: 16883675

psixcr
02-09-2008, 04:26 AM
MATT2388

Truly interesting stuff! Going to discuss this with my physician...

I'm still being examined for my low T3/T4 levels and I will have to wait and see how that turns out. I have been having this hypothyroid symptoms for several years, but since my TSH is normal nobody listens to me. I'm going to get a second opinion now though...

Other than that, Im really excited to start to gain some mass. Going for Rippetoes program and a good clean diet at about +500-1000 kcal a day. Will be back with my results in the coming months!

MATT2388
02-09-2008, 04:54 AM
MATT2388

Truly interesting stuff! Going to discuss this with my physician...

I'm still being examined for my low T3/T4 levels and I will have to wait and see how that turns out. I have been having this hypothyroid symptoms for several years, but since my TSH is normal nobody listens to me. I'm going to get a second opinion now though...

Other than that, Im really excited to start to gain some mass. Going for Rippetoes program and a good clean diet at about +500-1000 kcal a day. Will be back with my results in the coming months!

Im starting it next week. My body temperture is 96.4 on wake.

psixcr
02-09-2008, 06:36 AM
How's your temp throughout the day? Mine usually gets really low about 2-3 hours after breakfast. I train in the morning, but I have 30 grams of maltodextrin and 10 grams of EAA pre-workout and then about 40 P, 80 C and 10 g F as a solid meal as PWO (breakfast). Then after about 2 hours I crash... and I am not diabetic and certainly do not have low insulin sensitivity. Probably should get a second meal insted of the regular 3 hour interval.

Let me know how things work out for you!

MATT2388
02-09-2008, 07:27 AM
How's your temp throughout the day? Mine usually gets really low about 2-3 hours after breakfast. I train in the morning, but I have 30 grams of maltodextrin and 10 grams of EAA pre-workout and then about 40 P, 80 C and 10 g F as a solid meal as PWO (breakfast). Then after about 2 hours I crash... and I am not diabetic and certainly do not have low insulin sensitivity. Probably should get a second meal insted of the regular 3 hour interval.

Let me know how things work out for you!

Heh im the same, i have a massive meal at 3 am, 80carbs oatmeal and 25g protein shake, then i do my workout finish at 4 am and then 40 carbs oatmeal and 25g protein shake and 50g of protein from chicken, then drive to work.

I completely crash at around 7am and then i will have a light salad 100 calories and ill be ok until 10am and crash again, then at 11am, im good untill end of work which is where i have 100 protein of chicken and then im low energy untill bed. I take only Orange Triad multivitamins and omega 3 fish oil caps (10).

EDIT: I have only just increased my calories to 2000-2200 a day from 1400 calories, and making fat gains. What you expect though...It is a 30% odd increase in calorie intake. I have been taking 6 grain armour, this last week which is T4 - 234mcg and T3 - 54mcg. Result...Only slightly warmer, which is why i think i have Wilsons Syndrome, or i might have a duff "Armour Thyroid" product, even though it was from a good source.

Just tested - at 3:35pm, temperture 96.5.

Also have you ever took accutane?

psixcr
02-09-2008, 08:18 AM
We seem to be very similar! Although, I think I might be slightly better off since my temps has started to increase now that I finished my cutting and started upping my calories. I have had similar symptoms before (while not restricitng food) as said though, so I will definitely push my doctor to make a closer examination.

As for meds, I haven't had any medication for this condition. No synthetic T3, no T4, nothing.... Actually last week was when I got my bloodwork results back which told me I had low levels of T3 and T4 (before that I got tested back in 2004 and then everything was normal). Have had worsening symptoms over the years as said and this recent cut of course aggrevated the problems. But this doctor I am seeing now is completely ignoring the values (also high cholesterol and low white blood cells and reticulocytes) as TSH is in normal. That is why im going for a second opinion... could be as bad as something with the pituary gland as well. Yet still, maybe the values will return to normal when I eat more.

Sorry for the long post. I hope things work out for you!

MATT2388
02-09-2008, 08:42 AM
We seem to be very similar! Although, I think I might be slightly better off since my temps has started to increase now that I finished my cutting and started upping my calories. I have had similar symptoms before (while not restricitng food) as said though, so I will definitely push my doctor to make a closer examination.

As for meds, I haven't had any medication for this condition. No synthetic T3, no T4, nothing.... Actually last week was when I got my bloodwork results back which told me I had low levels of T3 and T4 (before that I got tested back in 2004 and then everything was normal). Have had worsening symptoms over the years as said and this recent cut of course aggrevated the problems. But this doctor I am seeing now is completely ignoring the values (also high cholesterol and low white blood cells and reticulocytes) as TSH is in normal. That is why im going for a second opinion... could be as bad as something with the pituary gland as well. Yet still, maybe the values will return to normal when I eat more.

Sorry for the long post. I hope things work out for you!

Yeah its the same with my docter, all he tests for is TSH and i have been to another docter and have been told the same thing, there no point. I told him about wilsons syndrome and to test my Free T3 as TSH means nothing, he said "No, theres no need to test T3 as my TSH results is fine, and that the internet people are just trying to make money out of you", i replied "How are they making money out of me, when they are not selling anything" pause then said "They are very clever people". I then simply walked out.

These docters have no idea what the hell they doing in my opinion, when i mentioned i had been taking Accutane for acne (a VERY popular drug), he said hes never heard of it before, then he started looking up on "Google" about it.

Also the first docter i seen, she said that Free T3 and Free T4 have nothing to do with my thyroid. I swapped to different docter immediately and that was the (most experienced) docter according to my mother.

Have you ever taken Accutane before, also my docter let me test for my testosterone levels, which came out on the low side, 12.6 (range is 9.8 - 27.8). Might be a good idea, Private message me the results as its sure to be low like mine was, with the low calorie intake.

Also check out this thread - http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=32207&st=0

psixcr
02-09-2008, 10:20 AM
No I haven't taken Accutane, just these over-counter "creams" which should be pretty harmless =)

Yes, doctors can be pretty ignorant and non-informed. There are good ones aswell though.

I have has a testosterone test done, will get the results next week. Probably low... I can get back to you.

MATT2388
02-09-2008, 10:31 AM
No I haven't taken Accutane, just these over-counter "creams" which should be pretty harmless =)

Yes, doctors can be pretty ignorant and non-informed. There are good ones aswell though.

I have has a testosterone test done, will get the results next week. Probably low... I can get back to you.

Yeah, would be interested to see what the results are. Been researching on adrenal fatigue, a theres a test you do at home to see if you have it, which is related to low thyroid even if your TSH is normal.

-Pupil testing, performed in a darkened room. Turn the light on, and the pupil should continue to get smaller. With AF, the pupil first contracts and then dilates again.

-Pain when pressing on adrenal glands (located over kidneys)

My result is that my pupil contracts and then dilates again straight after, bad sign...But i dont have any pain when pressing on my adrenal glands, you the same?

psixcr
02-09-2008, 11:22 AM
There might be some slight dilation after the contraction for me. A bit unsure though.

As for the palpation of the adrenal glands. Do you do this from the back or the front? I mean the kidneys lie in the very back, lateral to the spine, right? And the glands on top of that. But no, I don't think there is any pain apart from DOMS after my deadlifts yesterday =)

What about when you workout. Do you feel better when you get a sweat going and for about 1-1.5 hours afterwards? I often feel like crap (mainly stiff and achy) before a workout, then often good and sometimes great during it and a time afterwards. I guess this is true for most people though since you get the endorphins and stuff flowing.

Have you been/are you overtraining? starving yourself at any time? Pushing to hard and to long on a diet? Maybe we should go private with this discussion...