PDA

View Full Version : The "Unofficial" Controlled Labs - Red Acid FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions)

Pages : [1] 2

pu12en12g
10-31-2005, 10:09 PM
"Unofficial" Red Acid™ FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions)
by pt@controlledlabs.com

I've seen the "official" Red Acid™ write-up HERE (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=615453)... now when can I purchase it ?

It should be available @ retailers the first week of Nov

Where can I purchase Red Acid™ and how much will it cost ?

Internet retailers will have the best prices (around \$30 to \$35):
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/clabs/clabs.htm

How many capsules per bottle ?

180

How many capsules per serving ?

3

How many servings per day ?

2

How many servings per bottle ?

60

So... how many days will each bottle last ?

30

Does Red Acid™ replace proper diet and cardio ?

No

Will Red Acid™ raise my metabolism / basal metabolic rate ?

Yes

What it my basal metabolic rate ?

Your Basal Metabolic Rate (BMR) is the energy used (measured in calories) by your body to perform basic functions, including internal energy expenditure, breathing, and body temperature. It is the number of calories your body would expend if you performed no physical activity throughout the day.

Simply put... your Basal Metabolic Rate (BMR) is the rate at which your body burns calories while you rest. This is very important because we only have so much time for cardio each day.

BMR Calculator:
http://www.bmi-calculator.net/bmr-calculator/

I'm on a carb-cycling diet... is Red Acid™ good for me ?

Red Acid™ is a great option for carb-cyclers

Fatloss Basics Part 1 (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=4476014&postcount=3)
Fatloss Basics Part 2 (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=4476023&postcount=4)
Fatloss Basics Part 3 (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=4476035&postcount=5)
Fatloss Basics Part 4 (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=4476040&postcount=6)

See the studies / references here (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=615453)

Here (http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.php?issueID=26&pageID=317)

Here (http://www.bioperine.com)

Here (http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/green.html)

Here (http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/evo.html)

Here (http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/theo.html)

Here (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=4534096&postcount=1)

Here (http://www.life-enhancement.com/article_print.asp?ID=130&type=)

See the studies / references here (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=615453)

Here (http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/ging.html)

Here (http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/tyro.html)

Here (http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/caffeine.html)

How much caffeine is in the Red Sweat Complex™

200 - 225mg per serving

Here (http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/fors.html)

Here (http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/hood.html)

1. Ashani Y, Grunwald J, Kronman C, Velan B, Shafferman A. Role of tyrosine 337 in the binding of huperzine A to the active site of human acetylcholinesterase. Mol Pharmacol. 1994 Mar;45(3):555-60.

2. Ashani Y, Peggins JO 3d, Doctor BP. Mechanism of inhibition of cholinesterases by huperzine A. Biochem Biophys Res Commun. 1992 Apr 30;184(2):719-26.

3. Bai DL, Tang XC, He XC. Huperzine A, a potential therapeutic agent for treatment of Alzheimer's disease. Curr Med Chem. 2000 Mar;7(3):355-74.

4. Geib SJ, Tuckmantel W, Kozikowski AP. Huperzine A--a potent acetylcholinesterase inhibitor of use in the treatment of Alzheimer's disease. Acta Crystallogr C. 1991 Apr 15;47 ( Pt 4):824-7.

5. Patocka J. Huperzine A--an interesting anticholinesterase compound from the Chinese herbal medicine. Acta Medica (Hradec Kralove). 1998;41(4):155-7.

6. Pepping J. Huperzine A. Am J Health Syst Pharm. 2000 Mar 15;57(6):530, 533-4.

7. Pilotaz F, Masson P. Huperzine a: an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor with high pharmacological potential. Ann Pharm Fr. 1999 Sep;57(5):363-73.

8. Saxena A, Qian N, Kovach IM, Kozikowski AP, Pang YP, Vellom DC, Radic Z, Quinn D, Taylor P, Doctor BP. Identification of amino acid residues involved in the binding of Huperzine A to cholinesterases. Protein Sci. 1994 Oct;3(10):1770-8.

9. Sun QQ, Xu SS, Pan JL, Guo HM, Cao WQ. Huperzine-A capsules enhance memory and learning performance in 34 pairs of matched adolescent students. Chung Kuo Yao Li Hsueh Pao. 1999 Jul;20 (7):601-3.

10. Tang XC. Huperzine A (shuangyiping): a promising drug for Alzheimer's disease. Chung Kuo Yao Li Hsueh Pao. 1996 Nov;17(6):481-4.

11. Wang LM, Han YF, Tang XC. Huperzine A improves cognitive deficits caused by chronic cerebral hypoperfusion in rats. Eur J Pharmacol. 2000 Jun 9;398(1):65-72.

12. Xiao XQ, Wang R, Han YF, Tang XC. Protective effects of huperzine A on beta-amyloid(25-35) induced oxidative injury in rat pheochromocytoma cells. Neurosci Lett. 2000 Jun 9;286(3):155-8.

13. Xu SS, Cai ZY, Qu ZW, Yang RM, Cai YL, Wang GQ, Su XQ, Zhong XS, Cheng RY, Xu WA, Li JX, Feng B. Huperzine-A in capsules and tablets for treating patients with Alzheimer disease. Chung Kuo Yao Li Hsueh Pao. 1999 Jun;20(6):486-90.

14. Xu SS, Gao ZX, Weng Z, Du ZM, Xu WA, Yang JS, Zhang ML, Tong ZH, Fang YS, Chai XS, et al. Efficacy of tablet huperzine-A on memory, cognition, and behavior in Alzheimer's disease. Chung Kuo Yao Li Hsueh Pao. 1995 Sep;16(5):391-5.

15. Zhang RW, Tang XC, Han YY, Sang GW, Zhang YD, Ma YX, Zhang CL, Yang RM. Drug evaluation of huperzine A in the treatment of senile memory disorders. Chung Kuo Yao Li Hsueh Pao. 1991 May;12(3):250-2.

16. Zhu XZ. Development of natural products as drugs acting on central nervous system. Mem Inst Oswaldo Cruz. 1991;86 Suppl 2:173-5.

Here (http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/dec00/jojoba1200.htm)
Here (http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/proceedings1996/v3-377.html)
Here (http://www.kuleuven.ac.be/bio/endo/Abstracts/AB98/AB9811.htm)

Here (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/southfacts_guggul.htm)

Here (http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/efa.html)

What "basic" supplements do you recommend while taking Red Acid™ ?

Creatine (pre and post-workout)
Whey Protein (pre and post-workout)
Fishoil
PLENTY of water
Multivitamin

Besides the "basic" supplements listed above, what "other" ergogenics, compounds, or supplements do you recommend to maximize my fatloss results while on Red Acid™ ?

BCAA's / Electrolytes (during cardio / training)
Sesamin / Sesathin
Selenium

Ephedra / Ephedrine worked so well for me... why didn't Controlled Labs include Ephedra / Ephedrine in Red Acid™ ?

In pure form, Ephedrine HCL is technically considered a drug, and not a Supplement. The herbal form (Ephedra) is not something that I personally recommend.

I'm on medication, should I take Red Acid™ ?

I have a health condition, should I take Red Acid™ ?

Yohimbe / Yohimbine worked so well for me... why didn't Controlled Labs include Yohimbe / Yohimbine in Red Acid ?

a) Controlled Labs Blue Rhino™ contains Yohimbe, and Red Acid™ is designed to be stacked with Blue Rhino™

b) As a standalone, Red Acid™ is a GREAT choice for those that either "don't respond" to Yohimbe, or respond negatively to Yohimbe

c) We don't recommend stacking Yohimbe and Ephedrine, so by not adding Yohimbe, we made it possible to customize, maximize, and individualize your own potent "Red Acid™ fatloss" stack.

pu12en12g
11-01-2005, 12:31 AM
Is it necessary to cycle Red Acid™ ?

This depends on many variables, but if using it as a standalone, we generally recommend that you cycle off Red Acid™ every 6 to 12 weeks

When starting Red Acid™, should I "taper" up the dosage to assess my tolerance to Red Acid™?

This is always a good idea, but not required

When cycling off of Red Acid™, should I "taper" down the dosage to avoid caffeine withdrawal... etc..

This is always a good idea, but not required

What are some good indications that I'm losing fat while on Red Acid™ ?

Mirror / Appearance
Measurements
Bodyfat caliper
Bodyweight

If I workout in the evening / before bedtime, should I still take the 2nd serving preworkout ?

VERY good question. It's possible that this 2nd serving the Red Acid™ stims / thermos would prevent you from getting deep / quality sleep... if this happens, simply take 1 serving in the morning and 1 serving in the early afternoon. Try to make ONE of those servings a pre-workout serving.

I workout in the morning / right after breakfast, should I still take the 2nd serving preworkout ?

VERY good question. It's possible that taking both servings so close together could cause over-stimulation or a caffeine crash later in the day. In this situation, simply take 1 serving in the morning and 1 serving in the early afternoon. Try to make ONE of those servings a pre-workout serving.

What are some good cell-volumizers that I can take while cutting to maintain muscle "fullness" ?

Taurine
Glycerine
Glycerol Mono
Betaine

Can I stack Red Acid™ with Green Bulge™ and Blue Rhino™

Yes

I heard that all of your products are "Real World" tested and 105% Guaranteed... how many "Real World" Red Acid™ testers do you have ?

Over 30 testers so far, from the United States and the United Kingdom

Age Sex Height Bodytype Weight

18 M 5' 11" Ecto 175
21 M 5' 11" Endo 200
31 M 6' Meso-Endo 231
25 M 5' 9" Ecto-Meso 197
27 M 6' 1" Meso-Endo 225
23 M 6' 4" Meso-Endo 206
28 M 5' 8" Endo 182
21 M 5' 11" Ecto 193
40 M 6' 4" Ecto 265
26 M 6' Endo 260
18 M 6' 3" Endo 292
21 M 6' 4" Meso-Endo 243
20 M 6' Endo 200
24 M 5' 10" Endo 162
21 M 5' 10" Meso 215
21 M 5' 11" Meso-Endo 221
27 M 6' 5" Endo 285
29 M 5' 7" Endo-Meso 251
23 M 5' 8" Endo 216
22 M 6' Ecto 193
23 M 5' 8" Ecto 165
24 M 6' 1" Meso 235
36 F 5' 5" Endo-Meso 220
28 F 5' 2" Meso 119
23 F 5' 10" Meso-Endo 159
24 F 5' 7" Meso-Endo 155
21 M 6' 1" Ecto 200
24 M 6' 5" Meso-Ecto 224
31 M 5' 6" Meso-Ecto 83 kg
25 M 6'5" Endo 300
21 M 6' 1" Meso 237
29 M 6' 1" Endo-Meso 236
25 M 5' 10" Endo-Meso 180
29 M 5' 11" Endo 195
19 M 6' 1" Meso-Endo 240
18 M 6' Endo 245

With that many testers, how will you be able to track their results ?

It's a hard job, but somebody has to do it ! :)
We will be tracking their weekly results in a database and charting their results like this (Preview Only) :

Will the Red Acid™ tester results be published ?

Yes

Is Red Acid™ for men or women ?

Both

Does Red Acid delay gastric emptying?

It's possible

The concentration of anandamide in intestinal tissue increases during food deprivation, reaching levels that are threefold greater than those needed to half maximally activate CB1 receptors (Devane et al., 1992). This surge in anandamide levels, the mechanism of which is unknown, may serve as a short-range hunger signal to promote feeding. This idea is supported by the ability of SR141716A to reduce food intake after systemic but not central administration. Locally produced anandamide also may be involved in the regulation of gastric emptying and intestinal peristalsis, two processes that are inhibited by this endocannabinoid (Calignano et al., 1997; Izzo et al., 1999). Thus, intestinal anandamide appears to serve as an integrative signal that concomitantly regulates food intake and gastrointestinal motility.

The predominant peripheral component of feeding suppression induced by SR141716A led us to analyze whether the modulation of food intake derived from CB1 receptor stimulation/blockade may interact with that produced by the noncannabinoid anandamide analog OEA (Rodr&#237;guez de Fonseca et al., 2001). Our results indicate that the hyperphagic effects elicited by CB1 receptor stimulation were counteracted by the administration of OEA, whereas CB1 receptor blockade potentiates the suppression of feeding evoked by OEA. Because the intestinal levels of anandamide and OEA are inversely correlated (OEA increases after a meal, which results in a decrease in anandamide levels; anandamide increases during starvation, associated with a profound decrease in intestinal OEA) (Rodr&#237;guez de Fonseca et al., 2001; and present data), it is tempting to speculate that both compounds act in a coordinated manner to control feeding responses through their opposing actions on sensory nerve terminals within the gut.

I want to stack Red Acid™ with Ephedrine HCL... what cautions should be taken ?

Caution should always be taken when combining potent ingredients, and the following is for educational purposes only.

a) Do not do this if you've never used Ephedrine HCL before
b) Do not do this if you have a medical condition
c) Do not do this if you have a history of heart problems in your family
f) Go with pure "Bolt" Ephedrine HCL if possible
g) Red Acid™ contains caffeine, so no additional caffeine is necessary

Red Acid™ doesn't contain synephrine.... why is that ?

Legal reasons

I want to stack Red Acid™ with Synephrine HCL... where can I get it ?

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/cns/syn.html
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/prima/syn.html

I read the guggulsterones info above, heard alot about them, and they seem pretty controversial.. is there anything else you can tell me ?

There are some pretty well done articles on the thyroid stimulation properties actually, and these are quite well established

the following studies were done at university in india and are quite legit

Tripathi YB, Tripathi P, Malhotra OP, Tripathi SN. Related Articles, Links
Thyroid stimulatory action of (Z)-guggulsterone: mechanism of action.
Planta Med. 1988 Aug;54(4):271-7.

3: Tripathi YB, Malhotra OP, Tripathi SN. Related Articles, Links
Thyroid stimulating action of Z-guggulsterone obtained from Commiphora mukul.
Planta Med. 1984 Feb;(1):78-80.

Why is this a "unofficial" thread ?

Because some of the information being discussed is for educational purposes only

You said that Red Acid™ is designed to be stacked with Blue Rhino™... what difference would this make ?

a) A calorie deficit has the potential to decrease testosterone levels (below baseline), and Blue Rhino™ contains ingredients aimed at maximizing / maintaining your natural baseline testosterone levels

b) Blue Rhino™ contains Yohimbe, which can be effective for fatloss (especially the abdominal / oblique area)

So... after Red Acid™.. what product is next for Controlled Labs... can you give us any insight ?

:D I get this question a few times a week..

Code Purple will fill a void in the industry, and I'll be involved with formulating and personally testing every single ingredient as a potent standalone. The ongoing issue is to tweak the formula to bring the price down while still being both potent and cost-effective. I am pushing for some preliminary beta testing on Code Purple.

Code Black will be very inexpensive, but not mind blowing / innovative. It will be a "staple" / "basic" / "essential" product. It will be immediately popular for both men and women, and won't need much (if any) testing.

Code Orange will be a breakthrough product for us.. depending on timing, it might be our first non-capsuled product. I'll be involved with formulating and personally testing it, and it will require some preliminary beta testing. It will make many products obsolete, and it will be immediately popular for both men and women.

I've read this FAQ completely, and I still have a question or concern.. what should I do ?

pt@controlledlabs.com and I'll get back to you as soon as possible

BringnIt
11-01-2005, 12:41 AM
Amazing posts. Are all those ingredients in the product? :eek:

PSKlifter
11-01-2005, 12:42 AM
great job on the faq pt. lookin over the product, definitely intriguing. def a viable option when show cutting comes around. any preliminary thoughts on combing this w/ clen? (not a huge ec fan, tend to lose lbm on it where as clen i can maintain and even increase it feels)

pu12en12g
11-01-2005, 12:43 AM
Amazing posts. Are all those ingredients in the product? :eek:

:D

::Grim::
11-01-2005, 02:35 AM
so when will it be on the market?

pu12en12g
11-01-2005, 02:41 AM
so when will it be on the market?

I've seen the "official" Red Acid™ write-up HERE (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=615453)... now when can I purchase it ?

It should be available @ retailers the first week of Nov

Where can I purchase Red Acid™ and how much will it cost ?

Internet retailers will have the best prices (around \$30 to \$35):
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/clabs/clabs.htm

^^^^

Seroph4x
11-01-2005, 02:48 AM
::Grim:: isnt the quickest kind of guy

::Grim::
11-01-2005, 02:55 AM
::Grim:: isnt the quickest kind of guy
thanks. i completely missed it lol. i read everything else though.

CONTROLLED LABS
11-01-2005, 03:07 AM
Amazing posts. Are all those ingredients in the product? :eek:
I agree, I think pure energy is super natural, the guy is a machine.

nice posting pure.

tank

40-Yard Dash_2
11-01-2005, 05:07 AM
bump for an extremely informative thread.

jdiritto
11-01-2005, 05:31 AM
code purple and than code orange...

come'on guys..you can't do the whole code thing 2x..unless the products are somewhat similiar...than I guess I could see letting it slide

none the less - great thread! keep it up CL!

j_downey50
11-01-2005, 06:01 AM
code purple and than code orange...

come'on guys..you can't do the whole code thing 2x..unless the products are somewhat similiar...than I guess I could see letting it slide

none the less - great thread! keep it up CL!
I'm pretty sure those are just temporary names until the products are about to be released. If you didn't notice, he was very vague about what these products actually are... he didn't just jump out and say, "MULTI AND PROTEIN! OMGz!" ;)

C-Los 21
11-01-2005, 06:05 AM
Nice work on this thread pu12, it should be made a Contolled Labs Sticky :D

TommyTuffGuy
11-01-2005, 06:18 AM
What happens when you run out of colors? ;)

MCWTRAINER
11-01-2005, 06:30 AM
Great post Pu!

nick912
11-01-2005, 06:45 AM
Thanks to PT and Tank..

Krzna
11-01-2005, 06:46 AM
nice :)
great job pt ... now I gotta work harder :( ... with him setting such high standards

Blap Blaow
11-01-2005, 06:50 AM
great posts- REALLY looking forward to reading tester results to see how this translates into real life.

dbish77
11-01-2005, 09:44 AM
What happens when you run out of colors? ;)
OH NOES!!!! WUT R U GONA DO!!!!!???!!111?!///1? :D

spoonman
11-01-2005, 09:56 AM
Looks like some competition for melting point. Great to see another product with TTA plus tons of other goodies. I will definately try this one. Props for another innovative product.

dbish77
11-01-2005, 09:58 AM
Looks like some competition for melting point. Great to see another product with TTA plus tons of other goodies. I will definately try this one. Props for another innovative product.
I actually think it's quite a different product from Melting Point...not really competition outside of the fact they both will assist in fat-loss.

Twin Peak
11-01-2005, 10:04 AM
I actually think it's quite a different product from Melting Point...not really competition outside of the fact they both will assist in fat-loss.

I agree.

Robboe
11-01-2005, 10:09 AM
What happens when you run out of colors? ;)

They use HEX.

"#FF1493 Slim" and "#DAA520 Pump".

Robboe
11-01-2005, 10:11 AM
I agree.

I three-gree.

dbish77
11-01-2005, 10:14 AM
I three-gree.
I four-gree with what I wrote...

kasso99
11-01-2005, 10:24 AM
Code Purple will fill a void in the industry, and I'll be involved with formulating and personally testing every single ingredient as a potent standalone. The ongoing issue is to tweak the formula to bring the price down while still being both potent and cost-effective. I am pushing for some preliminary beta testing on Code Purple.

Code Black will be very inexpensive, but not mind blowing / innovative. It will be a "staple" / "basic" / "essential" product. It will be immediately popular for both men and women, and won't need much (if any) testing.

Code Orange will be a breakthrough product for us.. depending on timing, it might be our first non-capsuled product. I'll be involved with formulating and personally testing it, and it will require some preliminary beta testing. It will make many products obsolete, and it will be immediately popular for both men and women.

Is one of these possibly a BULKING supplement? ::licks lips in anticipation::

GeordieArtois
11-01-2005, 10:32 AM
Another brilliantly detailed and well structured post from Pure. Controlled Labs' future looks very bright indeed.

thanatoski
11-01-2005, 10:43 AM
kinda a lame question but you're saying that Yohimbe is effective in reduction of fat in the abdominal region but isn't that just promoting it's ability to spot reduce and isn't spot reduction impossible? any citations on it? thanks

dbish77
11-01-2005, 10:47 AM
I have a question...is there a faq page? and if so...where can I find it?

uhockey
11-01-2005, 11:00 AM
Plenty of questions over here boys: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=615453

PSKlifter
11-01-2005, 11:02 AM
bump to the RA/clen inquisition :D

spoonman
11-01-2005, 11:19 AM
I actually think it's quite a different product from Melting Point...not really competition outside of the fact they both will assist in fat-loss.

It is a lot different but I believe this is the first product (aside from MP) that uses TTA. This looks like Melting Point + Thermogenic

dwm230000
11-01-2005, 11:34 AM
It looks like about 1 cap a day of Melting Point plus a poorly orally bioavailable OEA plus some stimulants.

What's the minimum amount of TTA a person would need daily to see any desirable effects?

spoonman
11-01-2005, 11:48 AM
It looks like about 1 cap a day of Melting Point plus a poorly orally bioavailable OEA plus some stimulants.

I cant wait until Primaforce/Scivation comes out with a TTA product...I can see it happening.

Mr. Aries
11-01-2005, 12:27 PM
i'd like to see a PINK product from controlled labs.. BLACK isn't a damn color! lol

Blap Blaow
11-01-2005, 12:56 PM
i'd like to see a PINK product from controlled labs.. BLACK isn't a damn color! lol
neither is white if ya wanna get technical!!

:p

sawastea
11-01-2005, 01:07 PM
PT, have you taken Red Acid yet?

40-Yard Dash_2
11-01-2005, 01:08 PM
PT, have you taken Red Acid yet?
Hmm, that's a good question.

pu12en12g
11-01-2005, 01:20 PM
kinda a lame question but you're saying that Yohimbe is effective in reduction of fat in the abdominal region but isn't that just promoting it's ability to spot reduce and isn't spot reduction impossible? any citations on it? thanks

Great question

Norepinephrine and Yohimbine

Activation of the alpha 2 receptor inhibits the release of NE. Thus, by binding to this receptor, NE functions as its own negative feedback signal. In other words, it shuts off its own release. Obviously, this is not a good thing for fat loss. This is particularly true at rest (which, unless you are a marathon runner is 95% of your day) -- this is because alpha 2 receptors are activated at lower catecholamine levels than are the beta receptors (9). Thus, thermogenesis is basically always turned off, particularly in areas with high alpha 2 densities.

[b]There are regional differences in the distribution of alpha 2 and the beta receptors as well as gender differences -- this is what is responsible for the observed variations in bodyfat storage patterns(4). Basically, females tend to have a large number of alpha 2 receptors and few beta receptors in the gluteofemoral area (hips, thighs, and butt), while men have the same problem in the midsection. With exercise or the use of compounds such as the ephedrine/caffeine stack, catecholamine levels can be increased to a point where the alpha 2 induced inhibition of lipolysis is partially overcome (9). However, even then, the alpha 2 receptors ARE still acting to reduce lipolysis.

Yohimbine is a selective alpha 2 antagonist (10) and can thus short circuit this feedback loop, maximizing NE levels, thus maximizing fat loss, particularly in these problem areas -- and even more so if we can achieve high levels of yohimbine and NE in the adipose tissue....

DejaBlue55
11-01-2005, 01:31 PM
It looks like about 1 cap a day of Melting Point plus a poorly orally bioavailable OEA plus some stimulants.
That sounds a bit condescending to me? Am I wrong?

pu12en12g
11-01-2005, 01:55 PM
That sounds a bit condescending to me? Am I wrong?

I expected uhockey to see the big picture... but I was wrong.

uhockey
11-01-2005, 02:00 PM
That sounds a bit condescending to me? Am I wrong?

That sounds 100% truthful to me. I know the dosage of TTA deemed effective, I've utilized the product myself, and if their label complies with FDA standards the dosage is QUITE underdosed and thus windowdressing attempting to capitalize on........something.

As for the OEA, two studies, both indicate HORRID oral bioavailability.

You are wrong.

thanatoski
11-01-2005, 02:03 PM
Great question
thanks

Dosquito
11-01-2005, 02:08 PM
What happens when you run out of colors? ;)
Controlled labs Rainbow+Pink surprise!

BiggJohn
11-01-2005, 02:14 PM
Holy crap, I thought the only place I would see a 3-D excel chart is work.

:)

pu12en12g
11-01-2005, 02:17 PM
OEA

Food intake is inhibited by oral oleoylethanolamide.

Nielsen MJ, Petersen G, Astrup A, Hansen HS.
J Lipid Res. 2004 Jun;45(6):1027-9. Epub 2004 Apr 1. Related Articles, Links

Department of Pharmacology, The Danish University of Pharmaceutical Sciences, Copenhagen, Denmark.

Oleoylethanolamide (OEA) may be an endogenous regulator of food intake, and intraperitoneal injection of this compound decreases food intake in 24 h-starved rats. It is generally believed that this kind of lipid amide is rapidly catabolized in the gastrointestinal tract, thereby preventing its use as an oral antiobesity compound. We now show that oral OEA inhibits food intake dose dependently at 90 min after food presentation to starved rats. Food intake was reduced by 15.5% (P < 0.01) by administration of 10 mg/kg OEA. [(3)H]OEA was used to assess the degree of catabolism in the gastrointestinal tract. The endogenous level of this acylethanolamide was increased 11 times in the intestinal tissue (to 3.91 +/- 0.98 nmol/g tissue, mean +/- SEM) at 90 min after food presentation, based on the finding of 0.48% of the dose as intact OEA. These findings reveal unexpected properties of orally administered OEA, which may have potential as a cheap and safe antiobesity drug.

shannonb
11-01-2005, 04:18 PM
Code Purple a pre-workout supp?

Blap Blaow
11-01-2005, 05:07 PM
ok, a question just came to mind. Bearing in mind stims and fatloss supps are definately NOT my fort&#233;, what exactly in Red Acid required such strict health requirements for the testers?

EDIT: yup, saw the advice to contact a doctor in the FAQ, just wondering if there was anything specific to note?

pu12en12g
11-01-2005, 05:17 PM
ok, a question just came to mind. Bearing in mind stims and fatloss supps are definately NOT my forté, what exactly in Red Acid required such strict health requirements for the testers?

EDIT: yup, saw the advice to contact a doctor in the FAQ, just wondering if there was anything specific to note?

Among other things, the Bioperine, Cayenne, and Guggul

DejaBlue55
11-01-2005, 05:26 PM
That sounds 100% truthful to me. I know the dosage of TTA deemed effective, I've utilized the product myself, and if their label complies with FDA standards the dosage is QUITE underdosed and thus windowdressing attempting to capitalize on........something.

As for the OEA, two studies, both indicate HORRID oral bioavailability.

You are wrong.

Thanks.

hxcBB
11-01-2005, 05:26 PM
great information, im really looking forward to controlled labs future products as well as their present ones

dbish77
11-01-2005, 05:26 PM
I have a question...is there a faq page? and if so...where can I find it?
BUMP!!

pu12en12g
11-01-2005, 05:42 PM
Code Purple a pre-workout supp?

Nope :)

C-Los 21
11-01-2005, 05:45 PM
Hey pu12- I don't think anyone has ask this but, if your on EC at 400mg of C a day and then add RED ACID with 200-225mg of C, won't that equal to 800-850mg of caffeine? A bit too much, no?

dbish77
11-01-2005, 05:46 PM
Hey pu12- I don't think anyone has ask this but, if your on EC at 400mg of C a day and then add RED ACID with 200-225mg of C, won't that equal to 800-850mg of caffeine? A bit too much, no?
E/C isn't a suggested stack with RA...only E. Thanks for your question...NEXT!

pu12en12g
11-01-2005, 05:46 PM
Hey pu12- I don't think anyone has ask this but, if your on EC at 400mg of C a day and then add RED ACID with 200-225mg of C, won't that equal to 800-850mg of caffeine? A bit too much, no?

Great question.. see the stacking info above.

You're right... at a 2X daily Red Acid + E dosing there is no need for the additional caffeine.

dbish77
11-01-2005, 05:47 PM
Nope :)
Wait, so if we keep guessing will you tell us if we get it right? :D

pu12en12g
11-01-2005, 05:48 PM
Wait, so if we keep guessing will you tell us if we get it right? :D

Nope :)

dbish77
11-01-2005, 05:48 PM
Great question.. see the stacking info above.

You're right... at a 2X daily Red Acid + E dosing there is no need for the additional caffeine.

Great question.. see the stacking info above.

You're right... at a 2X daily Red Acid + E dosing there is no need for the additional caffeine.

I know I beat you to the punch, and my answer was superb, but there was simply no need for a double post...

dbish77
11-01-2005, 05:49 PM
Nope :)
Okay...will you tell us when we're not wrong?

11-02-2005, 04:10 AM
What happens when you run out of colors? ;)

Pu12en12g?

pu12en12g
11-02-2005, 04:19 AM
Pu12en12g?

What happens when you run out of colors?

"lightnings, sounds, and thunders... a great earthquake, such as was not since there were men on the earth, so great an earthquake, so mighty."

pu12en12g
11-02-2005, 09:22 AM
great job on the faq pt. lookin over the product, definitely intriguing. def a viable option when show cutting comes around. any preliminary thoughts on combing this w/ clen?

I was just informed that we will have 1 tester running:

1 Bottle Standalone
1 Bottle w / clen

So we'll get some feedback

MCWTRAINER
11-02-2005, 09:23 AM
I was just informed that we will have 1 tester running:

1 Bottle Standalone
1 Bottle w / clen

So we'll get some feedback
NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dbish77
11-02-2005, 09:28 AM
I was just informed that we will have 1 tester running:

1 Bottle Standalone
1 Bottle w / clen

So we'll get some feedback
Hmmmm...WHO could that be???? :)

pu12en12g
11-02-2005, 11:38 PM

1) capsaicin receptor = vanilloid receptor subtype 1 (VR1).. this is important

2) OEA reduces short-term food intake in mice via capsaicin receptor

3) gingerols represent a novel class of naturally occurring VR1 receptor agonists that may contribute to the medicinal properties of ginger, which have been known for centuries. The gingerol structure may be used as a template for the development of drugs acting as moderately potent activators of the VR1 receptor.

4)
Capsaicin-like anti-obese activities of evodiamine from fruits of Evodia rutaecarpa, a vanilloid receptor agonist.

Planta Med. 2001 Oct;67(7):628-33.

Evodiamine, a major alkaloidal principle of Evodia fruits (Evodia rutaecarpa, Rutaceae), showed vanilloid receptor agonistic activities comparable to capsaicin. The Chinese literature refers to Evodia fruits as a "hot nature" herb. In spite of the similarities in the actions of evodiamine and capsaicin in vitro, evodiamine has no perceptible taste, including a peppery hot taste. Therefore, the effectiveness of evodiamine and the extract of Evodia fruits in preventing obesity on male C3H mice, or male SD rats were examined. When evodiamine was supplemented at 0.03% of the diet and fed to mice for 12 days, the perirenal fat weight became significantly lower than in the control group. The epididymal fat mass was also decreased in the evodiamine diet group. When evodiamine was supplemented at 0.02% in the form of ethanol extract of Evodia fruits to the high-fat diet and fed to rats for 21 days, the body weight, the perirenal fat weight, epididymal fat weight, the levels of serum free fatty acid, total lipids in the liver, triglyceride in the liver, and cholesterol level in the liver were significantly reduced as compared with the control diet group. Furthermore, both lipolytic activity in the perirenal fat tissue and specific GDP binding in brown adipose tissue mitochondria, as the biological index of enhanced heat production, were significantly increased in the evodiamine fed rats. Fasting mice subcutaneously administered 1-3 mg/kg evodiamine showed decreased core body temperature by 1-2 degrees C. This hypothermic effect was prevented by the pretreatment of intraperitoneally administered 10 mg/kg capsazepine, a vanilloid receptor antagonist. On the other hand, food-sated mice subcutaneously administered 1-3 mg/kg evodiamine showed unchanged core body temperature and increased tail skin temperature by more than 5 degrees C, suggesting the increased energy expenditure by enhanced heat dissipation. In conclusion, we have demonstrated that a novel non-pungent vanilloid receptor agonist, evodiamine, mimics the characteristic anti-obese effects induced by capsaicin. Evodiamine would induce heat loss and heat production at the same time and dissipate food energy, preventing the accumulation of perivisceral fat and the body weight increase.

pu12en12g
11-03-2005, 04:49 AM
great information, im really looking forward to controlled labs future products as well as their present ones

Thanks man ! We look forward to your feedback !

pt@controlledlabs.com

pu12en12g
11-03-2005, 10:51 AM
What's the minimum amount of TTA a person would need daily to see any desirable effects?

A very important question... and one of the keys to the REDuction complex ;)

Mr. Aries
11-03-2005, 11:00 AM
is there anyone bulking while on RA? if not, i'll volunteer, haha

Blap Blaow
11-03-2005, 11:02 AM
ok, a question just came to mind. Bearing in mind stims and fatloss supps are definately NOT my fort&#233;...
Just wanted to quote myself to make it clear that I know very little about fatloss supps simply because I've never needed them.

Ok, now that we have that clear I have another question regarding the Red Slob complex. How will this effect appetite exactly? By which I mean will you lose your appetite sometime after taking a dose, will you feel less hungry throughout the day, will less food be enough to satisfy you? I realise the test results will provide a more definitive answer but I was wondering what you were expecting here?

I know I sound like a complete n00b but I seriously am when it comes to this topic!!!

pu12en12g
11-03-2005, 11:03 AM
is there anyone bulking while on RA? if not, i'll volunteer, haha

40_Yard_Dash_2 is clean bulking

shoot me a email with your thoughts on your tester log.. our primary concern is helping you achieve your goal... so if you aren't 100% cutting.. let me know what you'll be doing.

pt@controlledlabs.com

Mr. Aries
11-03-2005, 11:06 AM
Just wanted to quote myself to make it clear that I know very little about fatloss supps simply because I've never needed them.

Ok, now that we have that clear I have another question regarding the Red Slob complex. How will this effect appetite exactly? By which I mean will you lose your appetite sometime after taking a dose, will you feel less hungry throughout the day, will less food be enough to satisfy you? I realise the test results will provide a more definitive answer but I was wondering what you were expecting here?

I know I sound like a complete n00b but I seriously am when it comes to this topic!!!

I think i can give you a definitive answer on this one the first day I get RA.. I have a pretty sick appetite and I usually still get hungry and borderline hypo when I go anymore than 2.5 hours between food... Check out what I ate yesterday in my log.. If it starts to decline, it'll definitely show..

pu12en12g
11-03-2005, 11:06 AM
Just wanted to quote myself to make it clear that I know very little about fatloss supps simply because I've never needed them.

Ok, now that we have that clear I have another question regarding the Red Slob complex. How will this effect appetite exactly? By which I mean will you lose your appetite sometime after taking a dose, will you feel less hungry throughout the day, will less food be enough to satisfy you? I realise the test results will provide a more definitive answer but I was wondering what you were expecting here?

Good question... all of the above... and on top of that, it will be excellent for suppressing cravings.

Blap Blaow
11-03-2005, 11:12 AM
I think i can give you a definitive answer on this one the first day I get RA.. I have a pretty sick appetite and I usually still get hungry and borderline hypo when I go anymore than 2.5 hours between food... Check out what I ate yesterday in my log.. If it starts to decline, it'll definitely show..
I saw it bro- your 3 BIGGEST meals (4pm, 10pm and 12am) are HUUUUUGE!!!!! I can eat a lot throughout the day but not masses at one sitting!!! You need to same money bro and run a poultry farm outta your garage!

Good question... all of the above... and on top of that, it will be excellent for suppressing cravings.
thanks! I'll be very interested in seeing how RA's appetite supression effects pan out in real life. I think it may be the make or break factor (for me) when it comes to this stuff.

Mr. Aries
11-03-2005, 11:14 AM
blap have you tried HOODIA before for appetite control? that stuff made me not wanna eat PERIOD!.. I literally had to force food down my throat just to get the calories in...

and if I may ask, what is BLAP BLAOW?

I was born in March, therefore an Aries.. God of War, Fire.. blah blah.. hence Mr. Aries.. WHat is BLAP BLAOW? hehe just curious

Blap Blaow
11-03-2005, 11:17 AM
blap have you tried HOODIA before for appetite control? that stuff made me not wanna eat PERIOD!.. I literally had to force food down my throat just to get the calories in...
I've never tried anything for appetite control. Like I said- I've just never needed anything of the sort. I can usually eat when I'm hungry plus I run a little so my fat's never really been out of control.

40-Yard Dash_2
11-03-2005, 11:18 AM
I'll be very interested in seeing how RA's appetite supression effects pan out in real life. I think it may be the make or break factor (for me) when it comes to this stuff.
I'm a little worried about the appetite supression effect, because I am clean bulking with it. I will just have to change my calorie intake if it is that strong, but it will definitely be interesting to see. I'm lookin forward to it.

pu12en12g
11-03-2005, 11:20 AM
I'm a little worried about the appetite supression effect, because I am clean bulking with it.

Me 2 :) it will be wild and crazy.... "the pursuit of the holy grail"

Blap Blaow
11-03-2005, 11:20 AM
and if I may ask, what is BLAP BLAOW?

I was born in March, therefore an Aries.. God of War, Fire.. blah blah.. hence Mr. Aries.. WHat is BLAP BLAOW? hehe just curious
good question- you may regret asking :o
Blap (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=blap)
Blaow (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=blaow)

EDIT:

I'm a little worried about the appetite supression effect, because I am clean bulking with it. I will just have to change my calorie intake if it is that strong, but it will definitely be interesting to see. I'm lookin forward to it.
Yours is one of the logs I'm looking forward too because of this (plus you're cool :cool:, obviously!)

DejaBlue55
11-03-2005, 11:26 AM
Lmfao!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

40-Yard Dash_2
11-03-2005, 11:55 AM
Yours is one of the logs I'm looking forward too because of this (plus you're cool :cool:, obviously!)

Thanks buddy! We are ready and got all systems on, go!

40-Yard Dash_2
11-03-2005, 11:56 AM
Lmfao!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
lol. What or who are you laughing at?

Twin Peak
11-03-2005, 11:58 AM
A very important question... and one of the keys to the REDuction complex. If someone (anyone) tells you that there is a "magic" dosage of Tetradecylthioacetic acid for you, and only their product at XX dosage will "work"... I would question their motives.

I told Tank that DS folks would stay out of this thread.

We will not, if you starting inciting trouble, and calling into question our character and our motives.

I won't threaten a libel suit either, we will deal with it in the trenches.

Thanks.

dito
11-03-2005, 12:01 PM
Roflz ! ! !

40-Yard Dash_2
11-03-2005, 12:04 PM
Roflz ! ! !
WTF? What are you just lurking in the shadows and waiting for some drama to occur?

dito
11-03-2005, 12:06 PM
Save the drama for yo momma!

40-Yard Dash_2
11-03-2005, 12:09 PM
Save the drama for yo momma!
Yeah.......okay, haven't heard that quote since the mid 90's. Thanks for digging that one out of the 90's pop culture vault.

geoffsherman
11-03-2005, 12:20 PM
I just wantto know when PU12 is giving up his IT job and becoming a chemist, I can't imagine there are many who know as much as he does. Or know where to find studies online :D

Mr. Aries
11-03-2005, 12:54 PM
I told Tank that DS folks would stay out of this thread.

We will not, if you starting inciting trouble, and calling into question our character and our motives.

I won't threaten a libel suit either, we will deal with it in the trenches.

Thanks.

jeez.. I never even remotely assumed he's talking about you guys... Talk about jumping the gun.. Now we'll have more drama.. Why bother with this post? If you were gonna deal with it in the trenches, I assume it'd be done regardless of whether this post was made by you or not.

Again, I'm just saying reading PURE's post did not lead me to assume that he's talking about DS...

And Twin Peak.. No beef with you whatsoever.. I've been on the boards for years, I know your expertise.

Mr. Aries
11-03-2005, 12:55 PM
and 40-yard-dash, I think everyone is laughing because I asked BLAP BLAOW what his name meant and his answer was quite a stir, to say the least, lol

Blap Blaow
11-03-2005, 01:33 PM
and 40-yard-dash, I think everyone is laughing because I asked BLAP BLAOW what his name meant and his answer was quite a stir, to say the least, lol
you asked bro- I just answered!!! This is a Q and A slot after all!!!!

Anyways, to (try and) stay on topic here...

I've just been to the gym (had an awesome back workout) but the topic of appetite supression was nagging at me.

I understand the concept of a stims/thermos/fatloss sups etc etc but the concept of an appetite supressant makes less and less sense to me the more I think about it. Unless you have a problem with over-eating/binging/cravings I don't understand why you would want an appetite suppressant. Surely they promote under-eating which brings us closer to a starvation-like diet rather than a healthy balanced one; which isn't optimal for fat loss.

I realise that real life testing hasn't started yet but pu clearly stated his thoughts on this;

Ok.. just a heads up... this product (among other things ) has the potential to essentially destroy your appetite / cravings even as a standalone

Maybe there's something I'm missing here. I'd be very interested in trying to understand why appetite supressants are necessary...

Please note that I'm not definately trying to bash anything or anyone. If someone can show me the error in my logic I'd be more than happy!

dito
11-03-2005, 02:41 PM
jeez.. I never even remotely assumed he's talking about you guys... Talk about jumping the gun.. Now we'll have more drama.. Why bother with this post? If you were gonna deal with it in the trenches, I assume it'd be done regardless of whether this post was made by you or not.

Again, I'm just saying reading PURE's post did not lead me to assume that he's talking about DS...

And Twin Peak.. No beef with you whatsoever.. I've been on the boards for years, I know your expertise.

Out of curiousity what other companies have a TTA product?

Mr. Aries
11-03-2005, 02:45 PM
Out of curiousity what other companies have a TTA product?

designer supps Melting Point

dito
11-03-2005, 02:49 PM
well?

DejaBlue55
11-03-2005, 03:07 PM
If this thread keeps going this way today, I might just breaking your f king face tonight.
-LB

pu12en12g
11-03-2005, 05:07 PM
Maybe there's something I'm missing here. I'd be very interested in trying to understand why appetite supressants are necessary...

They are totally optional, and not a magic pill. However, the difference can potentially be night and day... cutting shouldn't be torture.

pu12en12g
11-03-2005, 05:08 PM
I told Tank that DS folks would stay out of this thread.

We will not, if you starting inciting trouble, and calling into question our character and our motives.

I won't threaten a libel suit either, we will deal with it in the trenches.

Thanks.

If you feel that I was calling into question your character and your motives, I apologize.

DejaBlue55
11-03-2005, 05:21 PM
I told Tank that DS folks would stay out of this thread.

We will not, if you starting inciting trouble, and calling into question our character and our motives.

I won't threaten a libel suit either, we will deal with it in the trenches.

Thanks.
TP...

Usually you're a cool dude and all man...

Are you in the middle of PCT with high doses of Clomid right now?

dbish77
11-03-2005, 05:26 PM
So pu12, do you know if it's okay for me to do the my dosing like:

Days 1-10: 4 caps 2x/day
Days 11-20: 5 caps 2x/day
Days 21-35: 6 caps 2x/day

italionstallion
11-03-2005, 05:41 PM
TP...

Usually you're a cool dude and all man...

Are you in the middle of PCT with high doses of Clomid right now?

What?

Go back and look at the posts
This is what TP is talking about. i think it is quite obvious that he is talking about DS's Melting Point which is what TP is somewhat upset about, especially after being told not to discuss/question RedAcid

A very important question... and one of the keys to the REDuction complex. If someone (anyone) tells you that there is a "magic" dosage of Tetradecylthioacetic acid for you, and only their product at XX dosage will "work"... I would question their motives.

Twin Peak
11-03-2005, 05:49 PM
Frankly, I don't mind anyone talking bad about our products, especially when they are well thought out critics. Even if by a competitor.

I just don't appreciate double standards, but it seems that is a thing of the past, and PU -- I accept your apology.

P.S. One post and my manhood is called into question? Geez....

DejaBlue55
11-03-2005, 05:59 PM
Yeah, I saw the post, and obviously he is talking about DS MP, because that's the only product on the market with TTA in it, and I've been checking out tons of info. on it lately, and I plan on buying it in bulk soon, but I don't think PU was trying to insinuate that MP was not a good dosage of TTA... He's just saying that just because the dosage of TTA is different in RA then in MP, that it doesn't mean one company has the right dosage and the other company has it wrong...

I think he's saying that, they have a certain amount of TTA in RA, and that's probably what CL thinks is the best choice, but it doesn't mean that they think the amount of TTA in MP is a bad choice. I'm sure DS isn't to happy about having another prodcut with TTA in it anyways, because it's competiton, and I was taught that competiton leads to lower prices... But maybe I'm way off and have no idea what I'm talking about? Who knows mane, I'm just a naive 21 year old in college.... I'll tell ya'll what though, The youth is wasted on the young, for sure.

italionstallion
11-03-2005, 06:22 PM
Yeah, I saw the post, and obviously he is talking about DS MP, because that's the only product on the market with TTA in it, and I've been checking out tons of info. on it lately, and I plan on buying it in bulk soon, but I don't think PU was trying to insinuate that MP was not a good dosage of TTA... He's just saying that just because the dosage of TTA is different in RA then in MP, that it doesn't mean one company has the right dosage and the other company has it wrong...

I think he's saying that, they have a certain amount of TTA in RA, and that's probably what CL thinks is the best choice, but it doesn't mean that they think the amount of TTA in MP is a bad choice. I'm sure DS isn't to happy about having another prodcut with TTA in it anyways, because it's competiton, and I was taught that competiton leads to lower prices... But maybe I'm way off and have no idea what I'm talking about? Who knows mane, I'm just a naive 21 year old in college.... I'll tell ya'll what though, The youth is wasted on the young, for sure.

I agree with ya

dtrain13
11-03-2005, 06:41 PM
I agree with ya
As do I.

Blap Blaow
11-03-2005, 10:58 PM
They are totally optional, and not a magic pill. However, the difference can potentially be night and day... cutting shouldn't be torture.
ok thanks- I do it see from that point of view I was just trying to understand it better for myself. Thanks again.

surfgod777
11-03-2005, 11:22 PM
hey PU, i am not sure if I have seen this posted in any of the threads, but can RA be combined with arginine? I usually take 5g arginine pre workout (the same time I would take RA). Do you suggest dropping the arginine during my 30 day RA cycle?

pu12en12g
11-03-2005, 11:27 PM
hey PU, i am not sure if I have seen this posted in any of the threads, but can RA be combined with arginine? I usually take 5g arginine pre workout (the same time I would take RA). Do you suggest dropping the arginine during my 30 day RA cycle?

That low dose will be fine, but I would avoid taking them at the exact same time.

jdiritto
11-04-2005, 08:53 AM
I'll tell ya'll what though, The youth is wasted on the young, for sure.

... that doesn't make any sense

nick912
11-07-2005, 11:33 AM
Should the pre workout dose be taken on a completely empty stomach? Or can they be oats and whey and apples in there?

pu12en12g
11-07-2005, 11:36 AM
Should the pre workout dose be taken on a completely empty stomach? Or can they be oats and whey and apples in there?

Either way is fine :cool: if you are taking the Red Acid before cardio, I would try to take it around 1 hour pre-cardio....

nick912
11-07-2005, 11:41 AM
Either way is fine :cool: if you are taking the Red Acid before cardio, I would try to take it around 1 hour pre-cardio....

Awesome! 30mins prior to lifting and 1hr prior to cardio.. Gotcha

I cant wait for my mail to run.. Im going to the BX and then to the gym to blow some time

40-Yard Dash_2
11-07-2005, 11:46 AM
I'm a f*cking moron when it comes to computers. Could you please insert, or tell me how to put the picture of the bottle of Red Acid in my new log? Thanks.

nick912
11-08-2005, 11:14 AM
PT or Tank..

Nicotine Gum with Pre workout RA dose or not? Too much??

I am well accustomed to Nicotine Gum supplementation for extra boost

pu12en12g
11-08-2005, 11:21 AM
PT or Tank..

Nicotine Gum with Pre workout RA dose or not? Too much??

I am well accustomed to Nicotine Gum supplementation for extra boost

You will want to maintain the supplementation that you were on immediately prior to Red Acid, and note everything in your log.

:)

dito
11-08-2005, 06:26 PM
Sir pu12,

I have some questions for you here http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php?showtopic=19937 . If you could kindly answer.

pu12en12g
11-09-2005, 01:27 AM
Sir pu12,

I have some questions for you here http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php?showtopic=19937 . If you could kindly answer.

dito, by the way, pure and I will not be answering or even acknowledging any questions or statements by you from here on out on any forum or other means of communication.

.....

Seroph4x
11-09-2005, 02:53 AM
.....

may i ask why you wont be talking to dito at all?

i hope this doesnt happen to me and we can always talk, as you have been a good help to me making my goals pu12 with help :)

CONTROLLED LABS
11-09-2005, 03:05 AM
may i ask why you wont be talking to dito at all?

i hope this doesnt happen to me and we can always talk, as you have been a good help to me making my goals pu12 with help :)
no worries, he is the only one on our "ignore list" for reasons that are fairly obvious based on his post history.

40-Yard Dash_2
11-09-2005, 03:07 AM
may i ask why you wont be talking to dito at all?
Geez man! Have you read Dito's posts pertaining to the subject? I can't imagine why he won't be talking to him.:rolleyes:

Seroph4x
11-09-2005, 03:19 AM
ok thanks guys wasnt aware of his posting habits

Seroph4x
11-09-2005, 03:24 AM
Geez man! Have you read Dito's posts pertaining to the subject? I can't imagine why he won't be talking to him.:rolleyes:
can you show me some? thanks

dito
11-09-2005, 06:50 AM
I don't see how my questions were out of line? Can someone explain?

Joey3
11-09-2005, 07:22 AM
Pu12en12g or controlled labs..I ordered Red Acid and should receive it today. I was taking a product called lipodrene that had ephedrine, yohimbe, caffeine and a few other things....I stopped yesterday because it was causing bad crashes at night..no energy and almost a depressed feeling. Im starting to wonder if this is the reaction people talk about when combining E+Y.

With that said, I want to stack ephedrine HCL with the Red Acid. I have the link for pure bolt, but really dont want to send my DL and other info. Can I stack this with Vaspro or does someone have another link for pure ephedrine or one that may contain gufstefsan (sp) that I could stack with Red Acid? Thanks.

pu12en12g
11-09-2005, 07:47 AM
Pu12en12g or controlled labs..I ordered Red Acid and should receive it today. I was taking a product called lipodrene that had ephedrine, yohimbe, caffeine and a few other things....I stopped yesterday because it was causing bad crashes at night..no energy and almost a depressed feeling. Im starting to wonder if this is the reaction people talk about when combining E+Y.

With that said, I want to stack ephedrine HCL with the Red Acid. I have the link for pure bolt, but really dont want to send my DL and other info. Can I stack this with Vaspro or does someone have another link for pure ephedrine or one that may contain gufstefsan (sp) that I could stack with Red Acid? Thanks.

If you have never taken vasopro before, start off with vasopro 12.5mg 2 x daily to assess tolerance. Then either post here with a update, or E-Mail me at:

pt@controlledlabs.com

Joey3
11-09-2005, 08:08 AM
If you have never taken vasopro before, start off with vasopro 12.5mg 2 x daily to assess tolerance. Then either post here with a update, or E-Mail me at:

pt@controlledlabs.com

I sent you an email...one other question, on off days (no lifting or cardio)...should you still take 2 doses?

pu12en12g
11-09-2005, 08:11 AM
I sent you an email...one other question, on off days (no lifting or cardio)...should you still take 2 doses?

of Red Acid ? Yes.. but you can experiment with a lower dosage.. the real-world feedback so far indicates that a lower dosage might be just as effective.

Joey3
11-09-2005, 08:21 AM
Ok cool..so maybe take 3 twice daily on workout days and two twice daily on non? Appreciate it.

pu12en12g
11-09-2005, 08:26 AM
Ok cool..so maybe take 3 twice daily on workout days and two twice daily on non? Appreciate it.

Yep... this would make the product last even longer as well.. :) also check your E-Mail

Joey3
11-09-2005, 08:49 AM
Ok just did..check your when you can..thanks.

dito
11-09-2005, 11:28 AM
pu12y and tanky can't we just be friends? Why are you guys harboring such anger?

Joey3
11-09-2005, 02:08 PM
pu12en12g- no luck with the bolt...but I found this link-

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/mp/vaso.html

and it has 25mg ephedrine/200 mg of guaifaisan per serving...I think I will stack that with the Red Acid..should I take one capsule (25mg) with each serving of Red Acid, so a total of 50mg of ephedrine (400mg of that guaifaisan crap)..what do you think?

dito
11-09-2005, 05:10 PM
Hi, pure and tank. I thought I'd let you guys know there are some more questions for you at avant.

1stoked
11-10-2005, 11:29 AM
Hi, pure and tank. I thought I'd let you guys know there are some more questions for you at avant.
yes dito i do agree, he stopped answering those critical questions all of a sudden. Its almost as if..................oh my i cannot say, it will break the spirits of many.

pu12en12g
11-10-2005, 11:31 AM
pu12en12g- no luck with the bolt...but I found this link-

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/mp/vaso.html

and it has 25mg ephedrine/200 mg of guaifaisan per serving...I think I will stack that with the Red Acid..should I take one capsule (25mg) with each serving of Red Acid, so a total of 50mg of ephedrine (400mg of that guaifaisan crap)..what do you think?

Assuming you are 18+... if you have never used Ephedrine before, start with just the Ephedrine by itself for a week or so to assess tolerance. After that, send me a Email:

pt@controlledlabs.com

Skigazzi
11-10-2005, 12:25 PM
Hi, pure and tank. I thought I'd let you guys know there are some more questions for you at avant.

I just read through that thread, good read. Id recommend it to anyone thats wants to get a little deeper into the product than 'when should I take it / etc '.

dito
11-10-2005, 12:33 PM
I agree. It would be cool if they'd answer my questions as well.

pu12en12g
11-10-2005, 12:53 PM
I just read through that thread, good read. Id recommend it to anyone thats wants to get a little deeper into the product than 'when should I take it / etc '.

It's a great discussion... very refreshing !

All of that info (and much more) is in this thread.

Joey3
11-10-2005, 01:13 PM
Assuming you are 18+... if you have never used Ephedrine before, start with just the Ephedrine by itself for a week or so to assess tolerance. After that, send me a Email:

pt@controlledlabs.com

Oh Ive used it before..actually just got off ephedra...Im 31, so no worries...just got Red Acid today...I ordered the vaspro yesterday, so I will probably stack it starting Monday with the red acid...It would be the perfect stack except for the guiafaisan or whatever that is..that was my only real concern...just wanted to know if I should stack it with 25mg each serving (twice a day)

jdiritto
11-11-2005, 05:49 AM
I still haven't recived the bottle of red acid
I guess it isnt a big deal cos Im still reviewing 5-tetra but I'm assuming my sample was shipped with the others...

I was in miamia for the weekend (got back to my house in PA late tuesday) and was expecting to find it but there was nothing, and so far there has been no signs of it arriving ..

just FYI -- maybe it will show up today ! hope so

pu12en12g
11-11-2005, 05:55 AM
I still haven't recived the bottle of red acid
I guess it isnt a big deal cos Im still reviewing 5-tetra but I'm assuming my sample was shipped with the others...

I'll check with Tank.. it's possible that we didn't put a rush on it because we knew your review was going to be delayed :cool:

Joey3
11-11-2005, 09:47 AM
bump for my question..

Dallas68
11-12-2005, 11:24 AM
:cool: awesome pu12eng12 i think you are actually affiliated with a company that honestly is ground breaking and will make a name for itself in the industry

[Jack|Pot] :)

thanks for that link to yahoo for bmr/bmi/bf/lean mass

im actually shocked at my bf :eek: time to cut the sh* out!...

pu12en12g
11-12-2005, 11:29 AM
bump for my question..

You have mail :)

Pace
11-12-2005, 11:29 AM

pu12en12g
11-18-2005, 05:15 AM
A few more studies related to Red Acid:

Combined effects of red pepper and caffeine consumption on 24 h energy balance in subjects given free access to foods.

Br J Nutr. 2001 Feb;85(2):203-11.

Yoshioka M, Doucet E, Drapeau V, Dionne I, Tremblay A.

Department of Social and Preventive Medicine, Division of Kinesiology, Laval University, Ste-Foy, Quebec G1K 7P4, Canada.

The effects of red pepper and caffeine ingestion on energy and macronutrient balances were examined in eight Caucasian male subjects. All subjects participated in two randomly assigned conditions: control and experimental (red pepper and caffeine). After ingesting a standardized breakfast, subjects ate three meals ad libitum (lunch, dinner and breakfast) and snacks which were served approximately 2 h after the lunch and dinner over a 24 h period. Two appetizers with or without 3 g red pepper) were given before lunch and dinner, and a drink (decaffeinated coffee with or without 200 mg caffeine) was served at all meals and snacks except for the after-dinner snack. It is also important to note that on the experimental day, 8.6 and 7.2 g red pepper were also added to lunch and dinner respectively. Red pepper and caffeine consumption significantly reduced the cumulative ad libitum energy intake and increased energy expenditure. The mean difference in energy balance between both conditions was 4000 kJ/d. Moreover, the power spectral analysis of heart rate suggested that this effect of red pepper was associated with an increase in sympathetic : parasympathetic nervous system activity ratio. These results indicate that the consumption of red pepper and caffeine can induce a considerable change in energy balance when individuals are given free access to foods.

Publication Types:

* Clinical Trial
* Randomized Controlled Trial

"In conclusion, the acute administration of capsaicin-containing red pepper sauce suspension in the proximal stomach causes a decrease in proximal gastric tone, an inhibition of the phasic contractility of the proximal stomach and an increase in the compliance and mechano-sensitivity of the proximal stomach, but does not affect the post-prandial motility of the proximal stomach. The acute administration of capsaicin induces a transient epigastric burning sensation, and this is followed by a decrease in the intensity of post-prandial symptoms. These data provide supportive evidence for the involvement of vanilloid receptor 1 in the modulation of gastric sensorimotor function in humans. They also add support to a putative therapeutic role for vanilloid receptor 1 modulation in hypersensitive functional disorders."

Effects of sesamin and capsaicin on the mRNA expressions of delta6 and delta5 desaturases in rat primary cultured hepatocytes.

Sesamin, a lignan in sesame seeds and sesame seed oil, and capsaicin, the pungent principle of hot red pepper, affect lipid metabolism. Sesamin specifically inhibits delta5 desaturase activity in the Mortierella alpina fungus and rat liver microsomes, however, the effects of sesamin and capsaicin on mRNA expressions of delta6 and delta5 desaturases are not still clear. In this study, we investigated the effects of sesamin and capsaicin on the desaturation indexes of delta6 [(gamma-linolenic acid+dihomo-gamma-linolenic acid)/linolenic acid, (GLA+DGLA)/LA] and delta5 (arachidonic acid/DGLA, AA/DGLA) and mRNA expressions of delta6 and delta5 desaturases in rat primary cultured hepatocytes. To measure the mRNA expressions of delta6 and delta5 desaturase, hepatocytes were cultured in the presence of sesamin or capsaicin for 24 h. To investigate the delta6 or delta5 desaturation index, hepatocytes were cultured in the presence of LA or DGLA, respectively, with sesamin or capsaicin for 24 h. The fatty acid composition of the cells was measured by GLC. The mRNA expressions of delta6 and delta5 desaturases were detected by real time quantitative RT-PCR. Sesamin and capsaicin had no effect on the mRNA expressions of delta6 and delta5 desaturases in rat hepatocytes. Capsaicin had no effect on both delta6 and delta5 desaturation indexes, either. On the other hand, sesamin significantly reduced the index of delta5 desaturation but not delta6 desaturation. These results suggested that sesamin reduced the delta5 desaturation index without the changing of the delta5 desaturase mRNA level.

Umeda-Sawada R, Fujiwara Y, Abe H, Seyama Y.
J Nutr Sci Vitaminol (Tokyo). 2003 Dec;49(6):442-6.

Department of Nutrition and Food Science, Ochanomizu University, 2-1-1, Otsuka, Bunkyo-ku, Tokyo, 112-8610 Japan.

http://www.if-pan.krakow.pl/pjp/pdf/2002/03_9.pdf

Effect of capsaicin and dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) on ion transport in the selected experimental models.

The aim of the present work was to determine the changes in ion transport in the selected epithelium-lined organs under influence of mechanical stimuli, and also to assess similarities and differences in reactions to capsaicin and dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) between trachea and caecum of rabbit and the skin of frog in this experimental setup. The experiments were conducted on rabbit trachea and caecum, and the skin of frog, Rana esculenta L. The experiments consisted in measuring transepithelial electrical potential (PD in mV) with Ussing apparatus, modified to enable testing of the effects of mechanical stimulation of organs and defined pharmacological treatments. It was demonstrated that the addition of DMSO to the stimulating fluid decreased reversible hyperpolarization (dPD) after mechanical stimulation by at least 50% in all studied groups. On the other hand, action of capsaicin was dependent on the organ studied as well as on experimental conditions (e.g. type of incubation). Capsaicin decreased PD and reaction to mechanical stimulation in trachea incubated in Ringer solution supplemented with amiloride. On the other hand, it did not influence electrophysiological parameters of the trachea following its incubation with bumetanide. Capsaicin did not change electrical potential or reactivity of rabbit caecum incubated with both amiloride and bumetanide. The administration of capsaicin on frog skin incubated with bumetanide caused inhibition of the reaction to mechanical stimulation, whereas during incubation with amiloride no changes were recorded in PD and dPD of the skin. The present study demonstrated that capsaicin and DMSO could modify processes of ion transport dependent on mechanical stimulation.

Kosik-Bogacka DI, Banach B, Tyrakowski T, Wojciechowska I.

Department of Biology and Medical Parasitology, Pomeranian Medical University, Szczecin, Poland. kodan@sci.pam.szczecin.pl

Action of capsaicin and related peptides on the ionic transport across the skin of Rana esculenta.

Capsaicin at low concentrations increases the short circuit current (SCC) across frog skin. Simultaneous measurements of both transepithelial fluxes of 22Na or 36Cl demonstrate that the SCC increase is due to stimulation of sodium active absorption. Capsaicin acts through the liberation of several peptides; thus these peptides were tested on the SCC across frog skin. Those more active are, in order of potency: Cyclic Calcitonin Gene Related Peptide (CGRP), Kassinin and Eledoisin, Substance P (SP) and Neurokinin A. Neurokinin B and Vasoactive Intestinal Peptide (VIP) have no effect. Also the actions of SP and CGRP are due mainly to stimulation of Na+ active absorption. A strict parallelism regarding the sensitivity to inhibitors (Naproxen, SQ22536 and CP96345) between SP, CGRP and Capsaicin strengthens the hypothesis that SP and CGRP are liberated by Capsaicin in this tissue.

Lippe C, Bellantuono V, Castronuovo G, Ardizzone C, Cassano G.
Institute of General Physiology, University of Bari, Italy.
Arch Int Physiol Biochim Biophys. 1994 Jan-Feb;102(1):51-4.

J Dent Res. 2003 Apr;82(4):308-11. Related Articles, Links

beta 2-Adrenoceptor regulation of CGRP release from capsaicin-sensitive neurons.

Bowles WR, Flores CM, Jackson DL, Hargreaves KM.

Division of Endodontics, University of Minnesota School of Dentistry, USA.

Previous studies have suggested that neurotransmitter substances from the sympatho-adrenomedullary system regulate pulpal blood flow (PBF), in part, by the inhibition of vasoactive neuropeptide release from pulpal sensory neurons. However, no study has evaluated the role of beta-adrenoceptors. We evaluated the hypothesis that activation of beta-adrenoceptors inhibits immunoreactive calcitonin gene-related peptide (iCGRP) release from capsaicin-sensitive nociceptive neurons via in vitro superfusion of bovine dental pulp. Either norepinephrine or epinephrine inhibited capsaicin-evoked iCGRP. The norepinephrine effect was blocked by the selective beta(2)-adrenoceptor antagonist, ICI 118,551, but not by pre-treatment with the selective beta(1)-adrenoceptor antagonist, atenolol. In addition, application of albuterol, a selective beta(2)-adrenoceptor agonist, significantly blocked capsaicin-evoked release of iCGRP. Collectively, these studies demonstrate that activation of beta(2)-adrenoceptors in dental pulp significantly reduces exocytosis of neuropeptides from capsaicin-sensitive nociceptors. This effect may have physiologic significance in regulating PBF. Moreover, since capsaicin selectively activates nociceptors, beta(2)-adrenoceptor agonists may have clinical utility as peripherally acting therapeutics for dental pain and inflammation.

pu12en12g
11-18-2005, 05:27 AM
"Effects of a Standardized Guggulsterone Phosphate Supplement on Body Composition in Overweight Adults: A Pilot Study"

Current Therapeutic Research Volume: 60, Issue: 4 April, 1999.

The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of a guggulsterone phosphate salt compound on body composition and mood states in overweight adults. In a double-masked, randomized, placebo-controlled study, 20 subjects with a body-mass index >25 kg/m2 were separated into 1 of 3 groups. The experimental group received guggulsterones 750 mg and phosphate 1650 mg daily, the placebo group received maltodextrin capsules, and the control group received no treatment for 6 weeks. Subjects were instructed to follow the American Heart Association Step One diet and a 3-day-per-week circuit exercise program. Body weight decreased significantly in the experimental group (3.2%, P < 0.05) and fat mass decreased significantly in the experimental (20.6%) and control (8.6%) groups (P < 0.01). However, between-group differences in weight loss were not statistically significant. Profile of Mood States (POMS)-fatigue decreased significantly in the experimental group (63.7%, P < 0.01), whereas POMS-vigor increased significantly in the experimental group (32.3%, P < 0.01) and decreased significantly in the placebo group (15.6%, P < 0.01). Results of this study suggest that ingestion of a guggulsterone phosphate salt compound concurrent with regular exercise will result in a significant loss of body weight and improved mood states.

NOTE:

between-group differences in weight loss were not statistically significant.

fat mass decreased significantly in the experimental (20.6%) and control (8.6%) groups

Bioactive food stimulants of sympathetic activity: effect on 24-h energy expenditure and fat oxidation.

Eur J Clin Nutr. 2005 Jun;59(6):733-41.

Belza A, Jessen AB.

Department of Human Nutrition, Centre for Advanced Food Studies, The Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University, Frederiksberg, Denmark. anbe@kvl.dk

OBJECTIVE: Bioactive food ingredients influence energy balance by exerting weak thermogenic effects. We studied whether the thermogenic effect of a combination of capsaicin, green tea extract (catechins and caffeine), tyrosine, and calcium was maintained after 7-day treatment and whether local effects in the gastric mucosa were involved in the efficacy.

DESIGN: The present study was designed as a 3-way crossover, randomised, placebo-controlled, double-blinded intervention.

SETTING: Department of Human Nutrition, RVAU, Denmark.

SUBJECTS: A total of 19 overweight to obese men (BMI: 28.0+/-2.7 kg/m2) were recruited by advertising locally.

INTERVENTION: The subjects took the supplements for a period of 7 days. The supplements were administrated as a simple supplement with the bioactive ingredients, a similar enterocoated version, or placebo. In all, 24-h energy expenditure (EE), substrate oxidations, spontaneous physical activity (SPA), and heart rate were measured in respiration chambers on the seventh day of each test period.Results:After adjustment for changes in body weight and SPA, 24-h EE was increased by 160 kJ/day (95% CI: 15-305) by the simple preparation as compared to placebo, whereas the enterocoated preparation had no such effect (53 kJ/day, -92 to 198); simple vs enterocoated versions (P=0.09). The simple preparation produced a deficit in 24-h energy balance of 193 kJ/day (49-338, P=0.03). Fat and carbohydrate oxidation were equally increased by the supplements.

CONCLUSION: A supplement containing bioactive food ingredients increased daily EE by approximately 200 kJ or 2%, without raising the heart rate or any observed adverse effects. The lack of effect of the enterocoated preparation suggests that a local action of capsaicin in the gastric mucosa is a prerequisite for exerting the thermogenic effect.

Publication Types:

* Clinical Trial
* Randomized Controlled Trial

Robboe
11-18-2005, 05:37 AM
Its all very good showing evidence that the compounds in red acid have potential, but what worth is it unless they are present in sufficient quanities?

TommyTuffGuy
11-18-2005, 07:12 AM
A few more studies related to Red Acid:

:) How I love reading this stuff and going:

"Huh?" Rocko-physie-fluxcapacitor-ology.

dito
11-18-2005, 07:14 AM
Its all very good showing evidence that the compounds in red acid have potential, but what worth is it unless they are present in sufficient quanities?

Robboe you aren't looking at the big picture. Always look at the BIG picture folks.

italionstallion
11-18-2005, 07:28 AM
Robboe you aren't looking at the big picture. Always look at the BIG picture folks.

lol, he must ONLY be thinking about the Reduce complex. There are TWO other complexes in Redacid that he is not thinking of, the combination of these work in synergy. :rolleyes:

Robboe
11-18-2005, 07:34 AM
Robboe you aren't looking at the big picture. Always look at the BIG picture folks.

To me, the "big picture" says that testing for all the ingredients in this profile must cost controlled labs an absolute fortune.

I can only imagine.

velikimajmun
11-18-2005, 07:41 AM
To me, the "big picture" says that testing for all the ingredients in this profile must cost controlled labs an absolute fortune.

I can only imagine.

taste testing the ingredients is cheap :D

the capscasin hurts a bit though:(

dito
11-18-2005, 07:47 AM
lol, he must ONLY be thinking about the Reduce complex. There are TWO other complexes in Redacid that he is not thinking of, the combination of these work in synergy. :rolleyes:

What's really funny, is that controlled labs sent out an email to their red acid testers with a direct comparison to melting point. How can they compare the two when no research has been done on red acid??

Is this the part where I start copying and pasting a bunch of irellevant stuff??

lostdaytomorrow
11-18-2005, 07:52 AM
What's really funny, is that controlled labs sent out an email to their red acid testers with a direct comparison to melting point. How can they compare the two when no research has been done on red acid??

Is this the part where I start copying and pasting a bunch of irellevant stuff??
I never got an e-mail that had a direct comparison to MP?? Wha chu talkn bout Cledus?

Also, for Robboe, which ingredients, in your opinion, are underdosed in this product? Just wondering, my guess is that you will say all of them are? Maybe I'm wrong?

RepubCarrier
11-18-2005, 08:03 AM
You guys (controlled labs) are really something else, you know that?

sothrowedmex
11-18-2005, 08:06 AM
just started my red acid cycle yesterday. Mani took them too close together and got that caffeine effect. didnt like it too much.I should have read this faq first. Oh well. This is what i currently look like as of now, after taking GB/WB/BR/ STACK.
I now am taking multis, fish & flax oil, saw palmetto, vit c & e, cla, l-carnitine, green tea, whey, and caseinate , creapure, im cutting now.

<img src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/espinosa_ramon/Ramon005.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">

<img src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/espinosa_ramon/Ramon004.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">

<img src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/espinosa_ramon/Ramon002.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">

<img src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/espinosa_ramon/Ramon001.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">

<img src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/espinosa_ramon/Ramon003.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">

<img src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/espinosa_ramon/Ramon008.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">

dito
11-18-2005, 08:07 AM
I never got an e-mail that had a direct comparison to MP?? Wha chu talkn bout Cledus?

Others did. I'll see if I can get a copy.

pu12en12g
11-18-2005, 10:58 AM
just started my red acid cycle yesterday. Mani took them too close together and got that caffeine effect. didnt like it too much.I should have read this faq first. Oh well. This is what i currently look like as of now, after taking GB/WB/BR/ STACK.
I now am taking multis, fish & flax oil, saw palmetto, vit c & e, cla, l-carnitine, green tea, whey, and caseinate , creapure, im cutting now.

<img src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/espinosa_ramon/Ramon005.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">

<img src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/espinosa_ramon/Ramon004.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">

<img src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/espinosa_ramon/Ramon002.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">

<img src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/espinosa_ramon/Ramon001.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">

<img src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/espinosa_ramon/Ramon003.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">

<img src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/espinosa_ramon/Ramon008.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">

You're gonna be a monster man ! Not much fat there to lose IMO.

Bignbuff
11-18-2005, 11:10 AM
Enough with the flaming and clutter in this thread guys. This thread is an FAQ. Keep things on topic or prepare to be banned. Personal attacks will not be tolerated by anyone on anyone.

Thanks

pu12en12g
11-18-2005, 05:27 PM
Conceptual and methodologic challenges of assessing the short-term efficacy of Guggulu in obesity: data emergent from a naturalistic clinical trial.

An open comparative trial was conducted in 58 adult obese patients (Body Mass Index > or = 25 kg/square metre). Group I (n = 27), non-drug, was advised diet (1200-1600 cals) and a brisk walk for 30 minutes. Group II, in addition, received Guggulu (Medohar) 1.5-3 gms/day for 30 days. Mean difference in weight loss between Guggulu and non-drug group was 0.32 kg (ns) on day 15 and 0.58 kg on day 30 (ns). The mean weight reduction in patients (> 90 kgs) was 1.92 kg (ns) and 2.25 kg (ns) higher in Guggulu group. All patients weighing > 90 kg lost weight in Guggulu group whilst 3 in non-drug group did not lose weight. Guggulu was tolerated well. The data from this pilot study suggest a synergistic diet-Guggulu interaction over 30 days in patients weighing > 90 kgs which needs to be confirmed in a large placebo controlled study.

......

Inhibition of LPS-induced NO production by the oleogum resin of Commiphora wightii and its constituents.

Phytochemistry. 2003 Jan;62(2):213-8.

Meselhy MR.

Department of Pharmacognosy, Faculty of Pharmacy, Cairo University, Kasr el-Aini Street, 11562 Cairo, Egypt. meselhyragab@yahoo.com

Three new (1-3) and five known compounds (4-8) were isolated from the oleogum resin of Commiphora wightii (Arnott.) Bhanol. Their structures were elucidated by spectroscopic and chemical methods. The MeOH extract and the EtOAc-sol. fraction were found to demonstrate significant inhibition of NO formation in lipopolysaccharide (LPS)-activated murine macrophages J774.1 in vitro (IC(50) values of 16.4 and 12.8 microg/ml, respectively). When compared with curcumin (IC(50) value of 12.3 microM), Z- and E-Guggulsterones (4 and 5, respectively) were the most potent inhibitors of NO production (IC(50) values of 1.1 and 3.3 microM, respectively), followed by myrrhanol A (7) and myrrhanone A (8) (IC(50) values of 21.1 and 42.3 microM, respectively). Guggulsterone-M (1) and its didehydro derivative (2) were weak inhibitors, while guggulsterols I (6) and Y (3) were inactive (IC(50) >500 microM).

Robboe
11-19-2005, 11:43 AM
Enough with the flaming and clutter in this thread guys. This thread is an FAQ. Keep things on topic or prepare to be banned. Personal attacks will not be tolerated by anyone on anyone.

Thanks

Where has there been a personal attack in this thread as of late?

dito
11-20-2005, 11:16 AM
http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php?showtopic=19937&st=90

Wowza!

dito
11-20-2005, 12:20 PM
Make sure to see the BIG picture folks ! ! !

Bignbuff
11-20-2005, 02:28 PM
http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php?showtopic=19937&st=90

Wowza!
dito, I warned you about three posts up NOT to do this ****. If you want to not support CL products, there's nothing wrong with that. But you couldn't resist not to keep things on topic and had to clutter up this thread. Cya in 5 days. Don't come back posting under a new name either or you won't be back here for good.

BringnIt
11-20-2005, 02:45 PM
Is it that he posted his "attacks" in this thread, or that he posted them in general?

Bignbuff
11-20-2005, 02:47 PM
Is it that he posted his "attacks" in this thread, or that he posted them in general?
He posted that link and **** after I said not to do that.

I didn't ban him for anything he did beforehand, that wouldn't be fair since I hadn't given a warning yet.

EDIT-No more discussion of dito in this thread. If you want to speak about it then PM me. It would be quite hippocritical of me to clutter up this thread with discussion of him and his banning.

laz
11-20-2005, 02:51 PM
dito, I warned you about three posts up NOT to do this ****. If you want to not support CL products, there's nothing wrong with that. But you couldn't resist not to keep things on topic and had to clutter up this thread. Cya in 5 days. Don't come back posting under a new name either or you won't be back here for good.

Justice finally served to the guy that posts a bunch of pointless bs.

Fighting Sioux
11-20-2005, 02:51 PM
Could not of said it any better

Justice finally served to the guy that posts a bunch of pointless bs.

BringnIt
11-20-2005, 02:52 PM
Well, hopefully you are next since you are doing th exact same thing Big just warned against.

laz
11-20-2005, 02:57 PM
Well, hopefully you are next since you are doing th exact same thing Big just warned against.

You need a happy pill. You are always so whiny.

BringnIt
11-20-2005, 02:58 PM
Double post.

BringnIt
11-20-2005, 02:59 PM
I just notice you like to talk a lot of **** AFTER dito is gone. Rep too precious for you?

MCWTRAINER
11-20-2005, 03:00 PM
I just notice you like to talk a lot of **** AFTER dito is gone.
I think it is best if everyone just stopped talking about it... Everyone has been warned yet you all continue to talk about it.

BringnIt
11-20-2005, 03:02 PM
If I am banned, then I have been warned. But I will not sit here and listen laz bad mouth dito when he is gone.

MCWTRAINER
11-20-2005, 03:03 PM
If I am banned, then I have been warned. But I will not sit here and listen laz bad mouth dito when he is gone.
I agree, funny that he runs his mouth after the fact. I just don't want to see you get banned...

laz
11-20-2005, 03:14 PM
I just notice you like to talk a lot of **** AFTER dito is gone. Rep too precious for you?

Saying that justice has been served is not bashing. This place needs to be a place to learn not a place to neg rep the heck out of people and cause trouble.This board has been extra controversial lately because people are on here to harass and e-bash others. I wish this board was like it was when i first joined a long time ago. So sorry for the one negative comment.

BringnIt
11-20-2005, 03:15 PM
You act as if the points dito make are invalid. There are definite issues that should be resolved.

Bignbuff
11-20-2005, 03:16 PM
I agree, funny that he runs his mouth after the fact. I just don't want to see you get banned...
Too late. He knew the rules and chose to break them anyways. That's three more banned for O/T convo. Any more takers?

lostdaytomorrow
11-20-2005, 03:20 PM
Enough with the flaming and clutter in this thread guys. This thread is an FAQ. Keep things on topic or prepare to be banned. Personal attacks will not be tolerated by anyone on anyone.

Thanks
Well said.

MCWTRAINER
11-20-2005, 03:36 PM
Too late. He knew the rules and chose to break them anyways. That's three more banned for O/T convo. Any more takers?
Can't say I didn't warn him... :(

Bane
11-20-2005, 03:47 PM
Well I have an on topic question:
Why is it irresponsible not to add trace amounts of antioxidants in your NO products, while it is perfectly fine to recommend a combo of Tyrosine(contained in Red Acid)+ Yohimbine(a MAO inhibitor,contained in Blue Rhino), which the medical sciences consider dangerous?

http://www.umm.edu/altmed/ConsSupplements/Interactions/Tyrosinecs.html
http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/nmdrugprofiles/nutsupdrugs/lty_0256.shtml
http://www.continuingeducation.com/pharmtech/herbs/avoid.html

®eckless
11-20-2005, 03:54 PM
Well I have an on topic question:
Why is it irresponsible not to add trace amounts of antioxidants in your NO products, while it is perfectly fine to recommend a combo of Tyrosine+ Yohimbine(a MAO inhibitor), which the medical sciences consider dangerous?

http://www.umm.edu/altmed/ConsSupplements/Interactions/Tyrosinecs.html
http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/nmdrugprofiles/nutsupdrugs/lty_0256.shtml
http://www.continuingeducation.com/pharmtech/herbs/avoid.html
so basically your saying red acid is dangerous?

ripped edges
11-20-2005, 03:54 PM
...That's three more banned for O/T convo. Any more takers?
Definetely not me! But why are you being so mean !! :)
BULLY !! :)

exfatman
11-20-2005, 03:59 PM
so basically your saying red acid is dangerous?
Read what Bane wrote again and pay attention to the words recommend a combo

CONTROLLED LABS
11-20-2005, 04:08 PM
Well I have an on topic question:
Why is it irresponsible not to add trace amounts of antioxidants in your NO products, while it is perfectly fine to recommend a combo of Tyrosine(contained in Red Acid)+ Yohimbine(a MAO inhibitor,contained in Blue Rhino), which the medical sciences consider dangerous?

http://www.umm.edu/altmed/ConsSupplements/Interactions/Tyrosinecs.html
http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/nmdrugprofiles/nutsupdrugs/lty_0256.shtml
http://www.continuingeducation.com/pharmtech/herbs/avoid.html

This is not a thread to start a debate (and this is not my intention, but I feel I must respond when you are trying to cause some panic here), but I wanted to point something out that is obvious to me. l-tyrosine is found in many proteins we consume on a daily basis, so are you saying that anybody consuming yohimbe should avoid any protein in their diet? If this is what you are saying it contradicts what bodybuilders have been doing for many many years, and I haven’t seen anyone experience negative effects to this date specifically from the combination of a high protein diet and yohimbe consumption.

Also, (and this is not saying that they are all correct), but many companies (and large respected ones at that) include yohimbe and l-tyrosine in products together, and at much higher doses than we have.

also, the literature you point to deals with 20-30 mg of yohimbine (the synthetic version), Blue Rhino only has 6.5mg of yohimbine per serving (herbal form) and they are talking about straight tyrosine supplements, which is a few thousand milligrams per day. Red acid only has a few hundred milligrams.

CONTROLLED LABS
11-20-2005, 04:19 PM
Well I have an on topic question:
Why is it irresponsible not to add trace amounts of antioxidants in your NO products, while it is perfectly fine to recommend a combo of Tyrosine(contained in Red Acid)+ Yohimbine(a MAO inhibitor,contained in Blue Rhino), which the medical sciences consider dangerous?

http://www.umm.edu/altmed/ConsSupplements/Interactions/Tyrosinecs.html
http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/nmdrugprofiles/nutsupdrugs/lty_0256.shtml
http://www.continuingeducation.com/pharmtech/herbs/avoid.html

and in your other threads you say that we support blue rhino being used together with tyramine, but if you were to red our warning on the product you would see that we specifically state NOT to consume tyramine and bleu rhino (yohimbe) together:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/clabs/blue.html

exfatman
11-20-2005, 04:38 PM
and in your other threads you say that we support blue rhino being used together with tyramine, but if you were to red our warning on the product you would see that we specifically state NOT to consume tyramine and bleu rhino (yohimbe) together:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/clabs/blue.html
Just a quick question Tank. Why does the RA FAQ contradict that?

pu12en12g
11-20-2005, 04:40 PM
Just a quick question Tank. Why does the RA FAQ contradict that?

It doesn't

Dosquito
11-20-2005, 04:43 PM
It doesn't

lol

lostdaytomorrow
11-20-2005, 04:45 PM
It doesn't

LMFAO!!!!

exfatman
11-20-2005, 04:47 PM
lol
From the first post in this thread...a) Controlled Labs Blue Rhino™ contains Yohimbe, and Red Acid™ is designed to be stacked with Blue Rhino™
....now go peddle your lies elswhere and let Tank answer questions addressed to him cause personally I don't believe you have the nerve to answer anything.

CONTROLLED LABS
11-20-2005, 04:48 PM
Just a quick question Tank. Why does the RA FAQ contradict that?
no problem, I don’t understand, we never say to take tyramine with red acid or blue rhino?

we say you can take blue rhino and red acid together because bodybuilders have been taking protein supplements and yohimbe together for decades. No one (that we know of) has reported bad effects from the two (protein supplements have lots of l-tyrosine in them, lots more than red acid does)

exfatman
11-20-2005, 04:49 PM
no problem, I don’t understand, we never say to take tyramine with red acid or blue rhino?

we say you can take blue rhino and red acid together because bodybuilders have been taking protein supplements and yohimbe together for decades. No one (that we know of) has reported bad effects from the two (protein supplements have lots of l-tyrosine in them, lots more than red acid does)
RA doesn't have Tyramine anymore Tank? When did you guys remove it?

pu12en12g
11-20-2005, 04:51 PM
Bane, regarding the post in your sig:

11-17-2005

What is betaine HCL doing with Creatine Magnesium Chelate?

Green Bulge doesn't contain Betaine HCL, it contains Betaine Anhydrous. There is a big difference. If you don't understand this difference, or you would like clarification, just send me a email:

pt@controlledlabs.com

From the first post in this thread...a) Controlled Labs Blue Rhino™ contains Yohimbe, and Red Acid™ is designed to be stacked with Blue Rhino™
....now go peddle your lies elswhere and let Tank answer questions addressed to him cause personally I don't believe you have the nerve to answer anything.

Neither product contains Tyramine If you don't understand this, or you would like clarification, just send me a email:

pt@controlledlabs.com

RA doesn't have Tyramine anymore Tank? When did you guys remove it?

Red Acid NEVER contained Tyramine at ANY TIME. If you don't understand this, or you would like clarification, just send me a email:

pt@controlledlabs.com

CONTROLLED LABS
11-20-2005, 04:52 PM
RA doesn't have Tyramine anymore Tank? When did you guys remove it?
never did, it has tyrosine, found in major amounts in all protien supplements.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/clabs/red.html

exfatman
11-20-2005, 04:53 PM
RA doesn't have Tyramine anymore Tank? When did you guys remove it?

Think I can take my foot out of my mouth now Tank?

CONTROLLED LABS
11-20-2005, 04:56 PM

Think I can take my foot out of my mouth now Tank?
no problem, we all make mistakes. :)

lostdaytomorrow
11-20-2005, 04:56 PM

Think I can take my foot out of my mouth now Tank?
Damn...

Bane
11-20-2005, 05:54 PM
This is not a thread to start a debate (and this is not my intention, but I feel I must respond when you are trying to cause some panic here), but I wanted to point something out that is obvious to me. l-tyrosine is found in many proteins we consume on a daily basis, so are you saying that anybody consuming yohimbe should avoid any protein in their diet? If this is what you are saying it contradicts what bodybuilders have been doing for many many years, and I haven’t seen anyone experience negative effects to this date specifically from the combination of a high protein diet and yohimbe consumption.

Also, (and this is not saying that they are all correct), but many companies (and large respected ones at that) include yohimbe and l-tyrosine in products together, and at much higher doses than we have.

also, the literature you point to deals with 20-30 mg of yohimbine (the synthetic version), Blue Rhino only has 6.5mg of yohimbine per serving (herbal form) and they are talking about straight tyrosine supplements, which is a few thousand milligrams per day. Red acid only has a few hundred milligrams.

1)For the same reason you don't get a pump when you eat walnuts. And that is lower concentrations in plasma serum due to slower absorption and also presence of other aminoacids which affects all the metabolic pathways. Base pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics, really.
2)As for other companies, if they want to advertise their products on this forum, I will point out that putting Tyrosine+Yohimbine(or even Tyramine) is outright stupid when time comes
3)The theraupetic dosages of Tyrosine, of which praurmaceutical literature states as to be taken with care start from 500mg. You said you had a few hundred milligrams in Red Acid, care to explain how few milligrams?
4)When I read that something stacks "very well" with something else, in my simple phaurmaceutical mind it means that no danger for adverse interactions exists. Especially from a company who claims that all other companies who produce NO products without antioxidants are irresponsible
5)The above references are merely indicational, since some people in this forum believe someone's opinion is in direst analogy with how many links he can copy/paste.Personally, I don't care a lot about being a lab mice for some supplement company so that my name can be the next in the scientific literature of adverse side effects. You should also learn that Yohimbine,apart from being a MAOI enhances Tyrosine Hydroxylase expression, which further increases danger for side effects.
6)I can give you my MedicinaL Chemistry's professor e-mail(Dr Kourounakis, the head of the Phaurmaceutical sector of the Aristotele University of Thessaloniki) so that you can tell him that when he wrote in his book that all MAO inhibitors,at any dosage, should never be combined with Tyramine, Tyrosine, Phenylalanine and Tryptophan he was wrong. I am sure he will mention you at his book credits
8)As for Blue Rhino containing so little Yohimbine as not to cause any side effects, check here:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=5841541&postcount=11
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=5613572&postcount=5
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=6841853&postcount=1

CONTROLLED LABS
11-20-2005, 06:13 PM
1)For the same reason you don't get a pump when you eat walnuts. And that is lower concentrations in plasma serum due to slower absorption and also presence of other aminoacids which affects all the metabolic pathways. Base pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics, really.

possibly, but the amount of many many grams in a days diet is still better absorbed than a few hundred milligrams of tyrosine (in red acid)

2)As for other companies, if they want to advertise their products on this forum, I will point out that putting Tyrosine+Yohimbine(or even Tyramine) is outright stupid when time comes

well then tell all of them too, not just us if you want to be fair. start with twinlab and work your way throught hte list, there are many.

3)The theraupetic dosages of Tyrosine, of which praurmaceutical literature states as to be taken with care start from 500mg. You said you had a few hundred milligrams in Red Acid, care to explain how few milligrams?

the whole complex is only 650 mg so there is not evenc lose to 500mg of tyrosine in there, so I guess we do not need to exercise care with the dose of tyrosine in red acid.

4)When I read that something stacks "very well" with something else, in my simple phaurmaceutical mind it means that no danger for adverse interactions exists. Especially from a company who claims that all other companies who produce NO products without antioxidants are irresponsible

there isnt, see the one above. do you not agree that it is essential to take anti-oxidants with NO products? yes or no?

5)The above references are merely indicational, since some people in this forum believe someone's opinion is in direst analogy with how many links he can copy/paste.Personally, I don't care a lot about being a lab mice for some supplement company so that my name can be the next in the scientific literature of adverse side effects. You should also learn that Yohimbine,apart from being a MAOI enhances Tyrosine Hydroxylase expression, which further increases danger for side effects.

no question here to address, but see above about level of tyrosine in the product, and even so only 3 users are using red acid with blue rhino, so dont make a blanket statement about all of our testers please.

6)I can give you my MedicinaL Chemistry's professor e-mail(Dr Kourounakis, the head of the Phaurmaceutical sector of the Aristotele University of Thessaloniki) so that you can tell him that when he wrote in his book that all MAO inhibitors,at any dosage, should never be combined with Tyramine, Tyrosine, Phenylalanine and Tryptophan he was wrong. I am sure he will mention you at his book credits

again, what level did he study it at and can he provides links to the studies?

no problem, everyone makes mistakes :) it takes a man to admit it though, so I applaud you for that.

CONTROLLED LABS
11-20-2005, 06:16 PM
8)As for Blue Rhino containing so little Yohimbine as not to cause any side effects, check here:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=5841541&postcount=11
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=5613572&postcount=5
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=6841853&postcount=1

tehse links were for users taking blue rhino alone, so are you concerned with yohimbe or combining yohimbe and tyrosine? because the only way to get the combination is by taking red acid and blue rhino together.

Bane
11-20-2005, 06:26 PM
1)For the same reason you don't get a pump when you eat walnuts. And that is lower concentrations in plasma serum due to slower absorption and also presence of other aminoacids which affects all the metabolic pathways. Base pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics, really.

possibly, but the amount of many many grams in a days diet is still better absorbed than a few hundred milligrams of tyrosine (in red acid)

2)As for other companies, if they want to advertise their products on this forum, I will point out that putting Tyrosine+Yohimbine(or even Tyramine) is outright stupid when time comes

well then tell all of them too, not just us if you want to be fair. start with twinlab and work your way throught hte list, there are many.

3)The theraupetic dosages of Tyrosine, of which praurmaceutical literature states as to be taken with care start from 500mg. You said you had a few hundred milligrams in Red Acid, care to explain how few milligrams?

the whole complex is only 650 mg so there is not evenc lose to 500mg of tyrosine in there, so I guess we do not need to exercise care with the dose of tyrosine in red acid.

4)When I read that something stacks "very well" with something else, in my simple phaurmaceutical mind it means that no danger for adverse interactions exists. Especially from a company who claims that all other companies who produce NO products without antioxidants are irresponsible

there isnt, see the one above. do you not agree that it is essential to take anti-oxidants with NO products? yes or no?

5)The above references are merely indicational, since some people in this forum believe someone's opinion is in direst analogy with how many links he can copy/paste.Personally, I don't care a lot about being a lab mice for some supplement company so that my name can be the next in the scientific literature of adverse side effects. You should also learn that Yohimbine,apart from being a MAOI enhances Tyrosine Hydroxylase expression, which further increases danger for side effects.

no question here to address, but see above about level of tyrosine in the product, and even so only 3 users are using red acid with blue rhino, so dont make a blanket statement about all of our testers please.

6)I can give you my MedicinaL Chemistry's professor e-mail(Dr Kourounakis, the head of the Phaurmaceutical sector of the Aristotele University of Thessaloniki) so that you can tell him that when he wrote in his book that all MAO inhibitors,at any dosage, should never be combined with Tyramine, Tyrosine, Phenylalanine and Tryptophan he was wrong. I am sure he will mention you at his book credits

again, what level did he study it at and can he provides links to the studies?

no problem, everyone makes mistakes :) it takes a man to admit it though, so I applaud you for that.

1)To make it more simple for you: If you drink 10ml of alcohol once per hour you don't get drunk. If you drink all 160ml together you do.
2)Twinlab does not advertise at this forum, does not occupy 1/3 of the supplement forums,does not try to undermine cytotoxicity of Guggulsterones with posts that are a traversion of phaurmaceutical science and does not claim that Yohimbine+Tyrosine make a good stack
3)

we do not need to exercise care with the dose of tyrosine in red acid.

I can see taht very well
4) Where exactly did you study Pharmacy, what clinical trials you did to access safety and danger of side effects and how can you be so irresponsible to say there is no danger for adverse reactions when there are posts of adverse reactions from Blue Rhino alone?
5)The issue is not how many testers exist that try this combo, the issue is you recommend it
6)I really think I would insult this very smart man if I asked him to provide "links" to studies. Science is much more than Googling and Copying/Pasting
7)Of course, everyone makes mistakes. And you would gain much more respect from me if you changed your recommendations saying you did a mistake in your FAQ and it is not advisable to stack Red Acid with any Yohimbine containing product or with Ephedrine

Off for now

MCWTRAINER
11-20-2005, 06:28 PM
^^^^^ Bane, you're getting out of hand...

exfatman
11-20-2005, 06:32 PM
^^^^^ Bane, you're getting out of hand...
Right or left hand?

MCWTRAINER
11-20-2005, 06:34 PM
Right or left hand?
Both...

exfatman
11-20-2005, 06:37 PM
Both...
Oh...ampidexterous :)

CONTROLLED LABS
11-20-2005, 06:39 PM
1)To make it more simple for you: If you drink 10ml of alcohol once per hour you don't get drunk. If you drink all 160ml together you do.

exactly my point. that is why the two red acid doses are spread out

2)Twinlab does not advertise at this forum, does not occupy 1/3 of the supplement forums,does not try to undermine cytotoxicity of Guggulsterones with posts that are a traversion of phaurmaceutical science and does not claim that Yohimbine+Tyrosine make a good stack

yes, but their products are sold here. and we do not advertise either, we give out tester bottles for free and we answer questions. and last time I checked twinlab did sell guggelsterones, along with about 30 other companies. they by definition claim that they make a good stack since they are in the same product. :)

3)
I can see taht very well

that was taken out of context.
4) Where exactly did you study Pharmacy, what clinical trials you did to access safety and danger of side effects and how can you be so irresponsible to say there is no danger for adverse reactions when there are posts of adverse reactions from Blue Rhino alone?

never have, this is the supplement industry, there are no clinical trials. ingredients are assumed to be safe unless otherwise shown. yohimbe and tyrosine (and guggul) are both regarded as safe. anything at certain levels is poison.

5)The issue is not how many testers exist that try this combo, the issue is you recommend it

yes, for reasons stated above

6)I really think I would insult this very smart man if I asked him to provide "links" to studies. Science is much more than Googling and Copying/Pasting

the links he provides are legitimate science so I dont see the problem.

7)Of course, everyone makes mistakes. And you would gain much more respect from me if you changed your recommendations saying you did a mistake in your FAQ and it is not advisable to stack Red Acid with any Yohimbine containing product or with Ephedrine

if proven wrong I would do this, no questions asked, but I havent been yet.

Off for now

im also off for now.

Bane
11-20-2005, 08:52 PM
1) A+B=C were C=danger for side effects(primarily hypertension). If we want(and care) to eliminate C we make sure A never meets B. We do not play with dosages and ask people to stop if they start going to the hospital. That's how we work at pharmacology anyways
2)Now tell me that your presence in this forum is not to advance your financial interests. And i forgot the most important:Twinlab NEVER undermined our freedom of speech by threatening with lawsuits other respectable board memmers who posed legitimate questions about their products. Fizogen didn't do it, Ergopharm didn's do it, Legal gear didn't do it and they all have recieved their good share of criticism from other companies representatives.
Congrats for putting your company next to Muscletech, after that:
3)In my point of viewing the big picture, it summarizes the context very well
4)I guess I should stop comparing most this industry with my science, where we learned to care about such flimsy things as the safety/efficacy factor, carcinogenesis,public health e.t.c. and we include a little piece of paper in each drug which summarizes all possible interactions(no matter how small the chance) among other things
5)Yes, responsibility lasts only as far as it makes our products safer than our competitors's
6)Because he can as easily write one study and reference himself.
7)If all the side effect reports(among them the case of one nearly fatal hypertension crisis from a Red Acid user) and what an actual Pharmacist tells you isn't enough reason, then I rest my case.

lostdaytomorrow
11-20-2005, 09:28 PM
7)If all the side effect reports(among them the case of one nearly fatal hypertension crisis from a Red Acid user) and what an actual Pharmacist tells you isn't enough reason, then I rest my case.

Holy WOWZERZZZZ..

How did I miss this? I have no life, all I do is post on BB.com all day... Where did this happen?

acecombact1
11-20-2005, 09:30 PM
Bane are your realy a pharmacaist bro?

lostdaytomorrow
11-20-2005, 09:37 PM
Bane are your realy a pharmacaist bro?
I think he's in school right now. I think he is overseas, too.

sothrowedmex
11-20-2005, 10:19 PM
You're gonna be a monster man ! Not much fat there to lose IMO.

HEY I APPRECIATE THE FEEDBACK. So let me ask you this. Do you think by taking Red Acid along with the other cutting supps I would actually lose more muscle than the excess fat i want to lose? Keep in mind I will still train intensely . I will train heavy and just have less rest time in between reps

lostdaytomorrow
11-20-2005, 11:12 PM
HEY I APPRECIATE THE FEEDBACK. So let me ask you this. Do you think by taking Red Acid along with the other cutting supps I would actually lose more muscle than the excess fat i want to lose? Keep in mind I will still train intensely . I will train heavy and just have less rest time in between reps

What "other cuttin supps" are you talking about?

(I know you're asking PU12, he will likely ask you the same question)

pu12en12g
11-20-2005, 11:29 PM
7)Of course, everyone makes mistakes. And you would gain much more respect from me if you changed your recommendations saying you did a mistake in your FAQ and it is not advisable to stack Red Acid with any Yohimbine containing product or with Ephedrine

This is a unofficial FAQ. You can direct your rude harassment towards me. And yes, I stand by the recommendations and cautions in the FAQ, regardless of the fact that you claim to be a pharmacist.

pu12en12g
11-20-2005, 11:31 PM
1) A+B=C were C=danger for side effects(primarily hypertension). If we want(and care) to eliminate C we make sure A never meets B. We do not play with dosages and ask people to stop if they start going to the hospital. That's how we work at pharmacology anyways

This is bodybuilding.com

This is not a pharmacy. If you don't understand this, or you would like clarification, just send me a email:

pt@controlledlabs.com

pu12en12g
11-20-2005, 11:34 PM
I guess I should stop comparing most this industry with my science

Actually that's a very good start, yes. If you would like to discuss the massive medical fraud worldwide involving the pharmaceutical industry, I will create a thread, and I look forward to discussing it with you.

Until then...if you don't understand this, or you would like clarification, just send me a email:

pt@controlledlabs.com

pu12en12g
11-20-2005, 11:39 PM
In my point of viewing the big picture, it summarizes the context very well

I hate to disagree with someone who claims to be a "pharmacist" but this is bodybuilding.com and you can assume that we are always discussing things in a bodybuilding context.

Information that will be required on the labels of dietary supplements includes:

Statement of identity (e.g., "ginseng")

Net quantity of contents (e.g., "60 capsules")

Structure-function claim and the statement "This statement has not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease."

Directions for use (e.g., "Take one capsule daily.")

Supplement Facts panel (lists serving size, amount, and active ingredient)

Other ingredients in descending order of predominance and by common name or proprietary blend.

Name and place of business of manufacturer, packer or distributor. This is the address to write for more product information.

If you don't understand this, or you would like clarification, just send me a email:

pt@controlledlabs.com

kingcarlos
11-20-2005, 11:40 PM
Actually that's a very good start, yes. If you would like to discuss the massive medical fraud worldwide involving the pharmaceutical industry, I will create a thread, and I look forward to discussing it with you.

Until then...if you don't understand this, or you would like clarification, just send me a email:

pt@controlledlabs.com

lol de best post ever haha. i wont blame both party since both are at wrong, but its interesting to see this debate goin one (not that i like ppl fighting). but i feel that as a product, we cant investigate it effects regarding to each individual ingredients (unless they are not bonded as a molecule). with the uprising of so many new type of supple, and all these mixture of ingridients, i dont think its right to classify out the ingredients and show us their pros and cons. unless specific and official investigative sutdies had been done the specific supplement (all the ingredients, no to each of its own), one can never confirm that its dangerous.. juz my 20cent

pu12en12g
11-20-2005, 11:43 PM
The above references are merely indicational

Agreed. It indicates that caution should be taken with Yohimbe and Yohimbine... stacked or standalone... just like Caffeine and hundreds of other legal, effective substances used on a daily basis by BODYBUILDERS... NOT "pharmacists".

It's very important that you understand this, so if you would like clarification, just send me a email:

pt@controlledlabs.com

pu12en12g
11-20-2005, 11:51 PM
side effect reports

As always, we are concerned about ANY negative experience when taking ANY Controlled Labs product, whether or not that experience is even related to the product.

Red Acid is proving to be very effective, even at a lower dosage. We have less than 20% reporting ANY initial side effects, and 5% to 10% reporting ANY ongoing side effect.. including MINOR side effects such as nausea.

Note: Some users even report "perspiration" as a side effect of Red Acid. We take all these reports seriously.

pu12en12g
11-20-2005, 11:55 PM
Here are some possible / common side effects by over the counter (non prescription) medications APPROVED by the pharmaceutical industry and the FDA:

Convulsions (seizures)
hallucinations
irregular or slow heartbeat
shortness of breath or troubled breathing
increase in blood pressure
irregular heartbeat (continuing)
shortness of breath or troubled breathing (severe or continuing)
slow or fast heartbeat (severe or continuing)
unusual nervousness
restlessness
excitement
trouble in sleeping

Difficult or painful urination
dizziness
fast or pounding heartbeat
increased sweating
nausea or vomiting
trembling
unusual paleness
weakness

If you don't understand these, or you would like clarification, just send me a email:

pt@controlledlabs.com

pu12en12g
11-21-2005, 12:07 AM
HEY I APPRECIATE THE FEEDBACK. So let me ask you this. Do you think by taking Red Acid along with the other cutting supps I would actually lose more muscle than the excess fat i want to lose? Keep in mind I will still train intensely . I will train heavy and just have less rest time in between reps

Great question ! Please send me a email including your:

Age:

Sex:

Height:

Weight:

Bodytype:

Prohormone/Steroid use:

Training experience:

Training Schedule/Protocol:

Cardio Schedule/Protocol:

Current supplements:

Current Diet:

Short Term Goal: (Example: Bulking from 120lb to 150lb)

Long Term Goal: (Example: "Ripped like Brad Pitt")

Prescription/Recreational drugs:

Supplement history:

pt@controlledlabs.com

CONTROLLED LABS
11-21-2005, 03:51 AM
bane, pure has basically addressed everything I wanted to say already, but please keep this discussion on a less rude level if you intend to continue writing, your original posts were much more of a debate and usefull, but your more recent ones were more of an attack with no material to them.

thanks :)

Bane
11-21-2005, 04:51 AM
I think he's in school right now. I think he is overseas, too.

I'll take my degree in a couple of months after I pass Medicinal Chemisty 3. As for oversees look my description

Bane
11-21-2005, 04:52 AM
Holy WOWZERZZZZ..

How did I miss this? I have no life, all I do is post on BB.com all day... Where did this happen?

Bane
11-21-2005, 04:54 AM
This is a unofficial FAQ. You can direct your rude harassment towards me. And yes, I stand by the recommendations and cautions in the FAQ, regardless of the fact that you claim to be a pharmacist.

Oh I can understand this very well. At least I show concern without waiting to make \$\$\$

Robboe
11-21-2005, 06:22 AM
also, the literature you point to deals with 20-30 mg of yohimbine (the synthetic version), Blue Rhino only has 6.5mg of yohimbine per serving (herbal form) and they are talking about straight tyrosine supplements, which is a few thousand milligrams per day. Red acid only has a few hundred milligrams.

Are we talking 400mg per cap or more like 100mg per cap?

italionstallion
11-21-2005, 07:20 AM
my ownly question is about the dosage of everything. How did you guys decide upon dosages? I'm guessing they were more or less just pulled out of a hat, or decided on by how much would fit in each capsule. I say this because Pu12 has stated many times that in this industry many things are not clinically studied, therefore noone knows the effective dose for a human.

pu12en12g
11-21-2005, 07:28 AM
my ownly question is about the dosage of everything. How did you guys decide upon dosages?

Hey man ! Great question !

Cost-effectiveness, safety, legal issues, and minimizing side effects were some of the concerns. As you know, we will NOT be discussing any legal issues or the proprietary blend beyond was has already been posted here:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=7547650&postcount=186

and here:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=7596484&postcount=5

In regards to the proprietary blend, this is where we will let the objective product reviews (testers AND consumers) speak for themselves.

If you don't understand this, or you would like clarification, just send me a email:

pt@controlledlabs.com

italionstallion
11-21-2005, 07:33 AM
.

If you don't understand this, or you would like clarification, just send me a email:

pt@controlledlabs.com

I seriously chukle how you include this all the time. :)

lostdaytomorrow
11-21-2005, 07:37 AM
If you don't understand this, or you would like clarification, just send me a email:

pt@controlledlabs.com

This is the best three lines I have ever read on BB.com. Everytime I see them, I smile.

Oh, and about that guy with the "near fatal" experience from RA...
IMO, two letters for that thread. B-S
8 posts, and that's all that guy has to say?
Must be one hell of a lurker.
If you don't understand this or would like some clarification, meet me in the squat rack.

Robboe
11-21-2005, 07:44 AM
Hey man ! Great question !

Cost-effectiveness, safety, legal issues, and minimizing side effects were some of the concerns. As you know, we will NOT be discussing any legal issues or the proprietary blend beyond was has already been posted here:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=7547650&postcount=186

and here:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=7596484&postcount=5

In regards to the proprietary blend, this is where we will let the objective product reviews (testers AND consumers) speak for themselves.

If you don't understand this, or you would like clarification, just send me a email:

pt@controlledlabs.com

Is it near 100mg or near 400mg? The tyrosine dose. You don't need to give me an actual figure.

pu12en12g
11-21-2005, 07:55 AM
Is it near 100mg or near 400mg? The tyrosine dose. You don't need to give me an actual figure.

I'll let Tank respond to that if needed, because again.... it is a PROPRIETARY BLEND. I'm not even a big fan of proprietary blends myself... but they are often required in the supplement industry :) As you know, I personally will NOT be discussing any legal issues or the proprietary blend beyond was has already been posted here:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=7547650&postcount=186

and here:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=7596484&postcount=5

In regards to the proprietary blend, this is where we will let the objective product reviews (testers AND consumers) speak for themselves.

Thanks for your concern and patience ! :)

lostdaytomorrow
11-21-2005, 08:02 AM
I'll take my degree in a couple of months after I pass Medicinal Chemisty 3. As for oversees look my description
I hope you weren't being condescending with that comment about looking at your profile, because when I made that post the Greece location was not there. The only reason I thought you were overseas is because the line under Bane used to say Pharmacy in a different language or something along those lines.

Robboe
11-21-2005, 08:10 AM
I'll let Tank respond to that if needed, because again.... it is a PROPRIETARY BLEND. I'm not even a big fan of proprietary blends myself... but they are often required in the supplement industry :) As you know, I personally will NOT be discussing any legal issues or the proprietary blend beyond was has already been posted here:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=7547650&postcount=186

and here:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=7596484&postcount=5

In regards to the proprietary blend, this is where we will let the objective product reviews (testers AND consumers) speak for themselves.

Thanks for your concern and patience ! :)

How is it objective when you've already personally emailed the testers a subjective comparison of red acid vs Melting Point?

By the way, your posts are becoming incredibly repetative. Surely uo you have some research for why you included tyrosine in the amounts the product contains?

pu12en12g
11-21-2005, 08:15 AM
comparison of red acid vs Melting Point ?

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=7554941&postcount=359

This is a Red Acid FAQ thread...I'm not interested in that comparison. Would you like someone to post a comparison chart in a new thread ?

Robboe
11-21-2005, 08:19 AM

This is a Red Acid FAQ thread...I'm not interested in that comparison. Would you like someone to post a comparison chart in a new thread ?

My question was still pertaining to red acid.

The comparison image you emailed out is already up on BB.com already, i think. Its certainly on other boards.

pu12en12g
11-21-2005, 08:20 AM
My question was still pertaining to red acid.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=7554941&postcount=359

Robboe
11-21-2005, 08:22 AM

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=7554941&postcount=359

"and I definately don't see the point of comparing or debating a standalone TTA product to Red Acid"

So why did you?

pu12en12g
11-21-2005, 08:27 AM

"and I definately don't see the point of comparing or debating a standalone TTA product to Red Acid"

So why did you?

I couldn't possibly care less about the comparison... the issue was addressed here:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=7554941&postcount=359

If you would like someone to post a comparison chart in a new thread, just say so.

nni
11-21-2005, 08:30 AM

"and I definately don't see the point of comparing or debating a standalone TTA product to Red Acid"

So why did you?

i gotta say, the incident in question, while a little iffy, isnt a terrible offense. think about all the "compare to active ingredients of.." products out there. i know we don't see a hell of a lot of that here, but honestly can't they tell their testers whatever they want? i can understand pointing out a specific product/competitor to be offensive when found out, but comparisons are made. to summarize.... "can't we all just get along?" :)

Robboe
11-21-2005, 08:35 AM
I couldn't possibly care less about the comparison... the issue was addressed here:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=7554941&postcount=359

If you would like someone to post a comparison chart in a new thread, just say so.

You obviously cared enough about it to privately email the comparison out to your testers.

Your recent posts refer to "shills" and "rep whores": http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=7784407&postcount=26

Do you not see the irony in this?

pu12en12g
11-21-2005, 08:37 AM
You obviously cared enough about it to privately email the comparison out to your testers.

Your recent posts refer to "shills" and "rep whores": http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=7784407&postcount=26

Do you not see the irony in this?

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=7554941&postcount=359

If you would like someone to post a comparison chart in a new thread, just say so.

dtrain13
11-21-2005, 08:41 AM
Seriously, can you guys stop with this ****??!! It's old hat and you know as well as I that it will get nothing accomplished and infact provoke more bull**** that personally I am sick of seeing on this board. Big f*cking waste of time and energy.

Anybody familiar with the phrase "Full of sound and fury signifying nothing".

nick912
11-21-2005, 08:42 AM
yea I see more bans coming

Robboe
11-21-2005, 08:44 AM
Seriously, can you guys stop with this ****??!! It's old hat and you know as well as I that it will get nothing acomplished and infact provoke more bull**** that personally I am sick of seeing on this board. Big f*cking waste of time and energy.

Anybody familiar with the phrase "Full of sound and fury signifying nothing".

You're right, i will stop.

I apologise.

Robboe
11-21-2005, 08:45 AM
yea I see more bans coming

Why? My questions have been pertaining to red acid.

dtrain13
11-21-2005, 08:52 AM
You're right, i will stop.

I apologise.

Rob, you know I have nothing but love for you:) and have no issue with you personally but I am sick of seeing this garbage all over this board. It serves little or no purpose and infact only really causes more problems.

Bane
11-21-2005, 08:54 AM
Guess what
Yohimbine side effects start from 4mg
Sorry for the mistake