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SYRIANKID
12-17-2007, 08:05 PM
Featured with sparse historical accuracy in Gibson's "Braveheart"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wallace

Do you think his actions were defensible? Would you have done what he did? If not, would you have at least supported his cause?

TheGunther
12-17-2007, 08:12 PM
You could consider him the terrorist of his day depending what side you look on. I think this is no different than when a proud few stood up to england whiched sparked the American Revolution. And if history continues to repeat itself in history books 100-200 years from now we might here about a few proud middle easterners who stood up to the giant US. This is why I apporve on Ron Paul and his ideas of getting out of Iraq. In what seems simple strategy for us, might be revolution for them.

dumac
12-17-2007, 08:12 PM
the movie is very historically inaccurate. his father was a knight for starters. still it got scotland to vote for independence from england back in the 90's

Beatitude
12-17-2007, 08:17 PM
the movie is very historically inaccurate. his father was a knight for starters. still it got scotland to vote for independence from england back in the 90's

ROFL really? Wow, that just goes to show the sphere and potency of Hollywood's influence.

--
This is somewhat off-topic from the original question, but I have to say it. If you watch the extras on the film, you learn that in the 2nd big battle in the movie, the scene where Wallace got shot in the shoulder was actually changed. Historically it's documented that he got shot in the neck, but they changed it because they thought it would be too unbelievable.

Lloyd Braun
12-17-2007, 08:42 PM
My ancestry is Scottish. My favorite movie is Braveheart. That should tell you all you need to know. :)


Not rly. Being of Scottish heritage I would be flat-out lying if I didn't say I weren't sympathetic to the Scottish cause in the independence wars. Now, if only the events depicted in the movie Braveheart had actually occurred, I'd have a helluva a hard time not fighting. Who wouldn't fight back if Prima Noctra rights were given? From what I understand, they weren't.

Depending on one's personal penchant for accurate historicity, the fact that movies like Braveheart gloss over many of the unsavory characteristics of history's "heroes" is either a good thing or a bad thing. Good for propoganda. Bad for history.

SYRIANKID
12-17-2007, 08:46 PM
My ancestry is Scottish. My favorite movie is Braveheart. That should tell you all you need to know. :)


Not rly. Being of Scottish heritage I would be flat-out lying if I didn't say I weren't sympathetic to the Scottish cause in the independence wars. Now, if only the events depicted in the movie Braveheart had actually occurred, I'd have a helluva a hard time not fighting. Who wouldn't fight back if Prima Noctra rights were given? From what I understand, they weren't.

Depending on one's personal penchant for accurate historicity, the fact that movies like Braveheart gloss over many of the unsavory characteristics of history's "heroes" is either a good thing or a bad thing. Good for propoganda. Bad for history.

While Prima Nocta was in fact a real law, it wasn't applied to the Scottish at that time. But that isn't the reason the Scots were fighting anyway. Even in the movie, it was just an added insult to their servility to the British.

Interesting Note: Many Medieval historians consider the character of "Robin Hood" to be based on William Wallace, as the legend developed at the same time.

guest89
12-17-2007, 08:51 PM
Honestly I can't saw my history is 100% when it comes to the British/Scottish situation. If the Brits went in and conquered the Scots I could totally see Wallace's point of view.


If someone invaded my country I'd have no qualms about killing as many of them as possible.

SYRIANKID
12-17-2007, 08:52 PM
Honestly I can't saw my history is 100% when it comes to the British/Scottish situation. If the Brits went in and conquered the Scots I could totally see Wallace's point of view.

If someone invaded my country I'd have no qualms about killing as many of them as possible.

The odds were heavily stacked against the disunited peasant Scots. Could you handle what William Wallace went through or are you the kind of person who can be bribed by the British?

umbro7267
12-17-2007, 08:54 PM
You could consider him the terrorist of his day depending what side you look on. I think this is no different than when a proud few stood up to england whiched sparked the American Revolution. And if history continues to repeat itself in history books 100-200 years from now we might here about a few proud middle easterners who stood up to the giant US. This is why I apporve on Ron Paul and his ideas of getting out of Iraq. In what seems simple strategy for us, might be revolution for them.


actually the revolutionary war, was britain's war on there own terrorists so how is he any different? he was fighting to the invaded country, terrorists attack to scare people into doing things. he fought for a freedom

US_Ranger
12-17-2007, 09:00 PM
You could consider him the terrorist of his day depending what side you look on. I think this is no different than when a proud few stood up to england whiched sparked the American Revolution. And if history continues to repeat itself in history books 100-200 years from now we might here about a few proud middle easterners who stood up to the giant US. This is why I apporve on Ron Paul and his ideas of getting out of Iraq. In what seems simple strategy for us, might be revolution for them.

You're right. These brave middle easteners who walk into crowded shopping centers and detonate explosives are true heroes. Thanks for opening my eyes!

SYRIANKID
12-17-2007, 09:03 PM
You're right. These brave middle easteners who walk into crowded shopping centers and detonate explosives are true heroes. Thanks for opening my eyes!

Not all Middle Easterners are part of Al Qaida, just like not all of your friends are rapists and trigger happy civilian bombers. You're either a poor propagandist or radiantly ignorant.

P.S. Stop derailing this thread with your same spiel.

Lloyd Braun
12-17-2007, 09:05 PM
The odds were heavily stacked against the disunited peasant Scots. Could you handle what William Wallace went through or are you the kind of person who can be bribed by the British?

I can't answer for guest89 but for me, that would be entirely dependent on the cause. I'd have to really be thoroughly convinced that by taking action (ie; taking lives) I was doing the right thing.

Let's say it's 2050 and Chinese soldiers are marching through the streets of my city. Yea, highly improbable but whatever. Technically, the Chinese have "occupied" the United States. Would that mean that I would be out planting IED's and sniping infantrymen? Probably not. In all honesty I'd probably more likely to be simply trying to keep my loved ones out of danger. Moreover, I would find it extremely unnerving to kill a fellow man, who may indeed be honorable and just and who just so happened to have the miserable luck of signing up for his country's service at the wrong time. Now, I know that's not the "alpha" thing to do (this forum is populated by mostly college-aged "men" afterall) but I would simply rather not have someone's death on my conscious. I simply couldn't bring my self to do it, knowing that it was I that pulled the trigger which killed some mother's son.

If, on the other hand these guys were rampaging through my neighborhood cornfields raping women and bayoneting babies, then in all likelihood I'd be out there doing everything I could to fight back. If that were to occur, then there would be little to no chance of bribery in the first place. I'd be too dedicated to the cause.

US_Ranger
12-17-2007, 09:08 PM
Not all Middle Easterners are part of Al Qaida, just like not all of your friends are rapists and trigger happy civilian bombers. You're either a poor propagandist or radiantly ignorant.

P.S. Stop derailing this thread with your same spiel.

No, **** off.

I'll stop saying the same thing when people stop making retarded blanket statements about brave freedom fighters in the middle east. This **** gets old really fast. Also, OBVIOUSLY, it's not just AQ doing this sort of thing. In case you forgot, sectarian violence plays a big role as well. These people aren't members of AQ and they go on mass killing sprees. Are they brave freedom fighters too?

SYRIANKID
12-17-2007, 09:10 PM
I can't answer for guest89 but for me, that would be entirely dependent on the cause. I'd have to really be thoroughly convinced that by taking action (ie; taking lives) I was doing the right thing.

Let's say it's 2050 and Chinese soldiers are marching through the streets of my city. Yea, highly improbable but whatever. Technically, the Chinese have "occupied" the United States. Would that mean that I would be out planting IED's and sniping infantrymen? Probably not. In all honesty I'd probably more likely to be simply trying to keep my loved ones out of danger. Moreover, I would find it extremely unnerving to kill a fellow man, who may indeed be honorable and just and who just so happened to have the miserable luck of signing up for his country's service at the wrong time. Now, I know that's not the "alpha" thing to do (this forum is populated by mostly college-aged "men") but I would simply rather not have someone's death on my conscious. I simply couldn't bring my self to do it, knowing that it was I that pulled the trigger which killed some mother's son.

If, on the other hand these guys were rampaging through my neighborhood cornfields raping women and bayoneting babies, then in all likelihood I'd be out there doing everything I could to fight back. If that were to occur, then there would be little to no chance of bribery in the first place. I'd be to dedicated to the cause.

Don't place us in the future. You're an untrained Scottish peasant with farm tools. It's cold and damp and you've pissed off the British. You have a family to take care of anyway. You have the following problem:

You have no heavy cavalry! (http://aok.heavengames.com/downloads/taunts/gettaunt.php3?dltype=i&dl=301)

Some of your friends are gathering their forces. Do you continue to eek out a living on the farm, take a few bribes, or join the fight. If your friends lose, the British will squeeze you even harder than before.

SYRIANKID
12-17-2007, 09:12 PM
No, **** off.

I'll stop saying the same thing when people stop making retarded blanket statements about brave freedom fighters in the middle east. This **** gets old really fast. Also, OBVIOUSLY, it's not just AQ doing this sort of thing. In case you forgot, sectarian violence plays a big role as well. These people aren't members of AQ and they go on mass killing sprees. Are they brave freedom fighters too?

The Middle East contains plenty of freedom frighters, in spite of how deliriously brainwashed you are by the people who pay your salary.

We're talking about William Wallace in here, so you can take your violent temper for which you have been previously banned in this forum, and create your own thread to talk about your murderous fantasies.

BPP
12-17-2007, 09:12 PM
No, **** off.

I'll stop saying the same thing when people stop making retarded blanket statements about brave freedom fighters in the middle east. This **** gets old really fast. Also, OBVIOUSLY, it's not just AQ doing this sort of thing. In case you forgot, sectarian violence plays a big role as well. These people aren't members of AQ and they go on mass killing sprees. Are they brave freedom fighters too?

easy...

US_Ranger
12-17-2007, 09:16 PM
The Middle East contains plenty of freedom frighters, in spite of how deliriously brainwashed you are by the people who pay your salary.

We're talking about William Wallace in here, so you can take your violent temper for which you have been previously banned in this forum, and create your own thread to talk about your murderous fantasies.

My murderous fantasies? Are you talking about the same fantasies where I stone gay people to death? Oh wait....that's you.

Also, what salary are you talking about? I'm not in the military anymore. You're right though, the middle east does contain plenty of freedom fighters. They're the guys who are joining with the government and trying to root out AQ and other sacks of **** coming over from Iran and Syria. They don't want the US there but they realize that having a murderous tyrannical regime in power does no good for anyone and the sooner they gain stability the sooner we can leave.

If you want to compare it to William Wallace, feel free. However, I don't remember the Scottish hijacking a plane and sending it into any castles in England.

And Braveheart is very innacurate. It's a movie used to spark emotions and nothing else.

Lloyd Braun
12-17-2007, 09:18 PM
Don't place us in the future. You're an untrained Scottish peasant with farm tools. It's cold and damp and you've pissed off the British. You have a family to take care of anyway. You have the following problem:

If I was an untrained illiterate lowly peasant I'd probably be out there fighting simply because my lot in life lends itself to gullibility and naivety considering the time period and my geographic location. I'd be getting all my information heresay and in all likelihood would be by modern definitions a complete and utter bafoon.

SYRIANKID
12-17-2007, 09:22 PM
If I was an untrained illiterate lowly peasant I'd probably be out there fighting simply because my lot in life lends itself to gullibility and naivety considering the time period and my geographic location. I'd be getting all my information heresay.

That's not fair because that belittles the efforts of people who were making conscious sacrifices. It is a major sacrifice to put your health and wealth on the battlefield. Just because you are poor doesn't make it any easier to risk getting stabbed in the guts with a sword and dying slow.

And by the way, the propaganda matrix was powerful in medieval times. What alternative was there to hearsay vs. official statements?

Lloyd Braun
12-17-2007, 09:35 PM
And by the way, the propaganda matrix was powerful in medieval times. What alternative was there to hearsay vs. official statements?

There isn't. That's what I am saying. Nobody had the luxery of the internet during the era. My entire body of knowledge would have been incredibly naive and short-sighted. I'd have no real and clear means of finding out what the real history of our two parties were, what led up to the events and why each party was in conflict.

However, I think I already know the direction you are headed in your argumentation but it's for nought, as I am assuming that you believe there are causes to fight for, which are just and honorable, whereas I believe the overwhelming vast majority of wars throughout history were fought and executed by parties who had selfish interests at heart first and foremost. You believe certain wars are just, whereas I believe they are inherently unjust, but perhaps sometimes necessary (a rarity).

SYRIANKID
12-17-2007, 09:41 PM
whereas I believe the overwhelming vast majority of wars throughout history were fought and executed by parties who had selfish interests at heart first and foremost.

You'll find that motives are invisible. Without proof, it is unfair to link every cause to the nearest material gain.


You believe certain wars are just, whereas I believe they are inherently unjust, but perhaps sometimes necessary (a rarity).

This doesn't make sense. Do you believe that a policeman is inherently unjust but necessary? Between nations and groups, men must often police themselves to preserve their God-given rights, just as a government must deploy police to do the same within a single nation. Maybe most policemen do their jobs for the salary and maybe they should be given the benefit of the doubt.

What is an army but an extension of man's right to defend his sovereignty?

Lloyd Braun
12-17-2007, 09:47 PM
Do you believe that a policeman is inherently unjust but necessary? Between nations and groups, men must often police themselves to preserve their God-given rights, just as a government must deploy police to do the same within a single nation.

Of course not. Policemen don't charge recklessly into the masses of the enemy lopping off the limbs of persons they would otherwise, had history transpired just slightly different, be drinking tea with. That is what makes war inherently unjust, and I would say, even evil. I have no way of knowing whether my enemy is really a cruel and despicable person, or an honorable and just man. In fact, more often than not he'd probably be the latter.


What is an army but an extension of man's right to defend his sovereignty?

Or a means with which to execute the king's tyrannical plan to subjugate a neighbor's resources?

Cuchulainn
12-17-2007, 09:50 PM
Featured with sparse historical accuracy in Gibson's "Braveheart"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wallace

Do you think his actions were defensible?
yes
Would you have done what he did?
would have faught



The English, during that time period as well as others, were absolutely brutal towards their neighbors (scotland, ireland, etc...)

As for comparing Wallace to Al-Qaeda. All of Wallace's targets were military targets and English Authorities.


edit: This does not mean that I support US policy in the mid east.

SYRIANKID
12-17-2007, 09:51 PM
Of course not. Policemen don't charge recklessly into the masses of the enemy lopping off the limbs of persons they would otherwise, had history transpired just slightly different, be drinking tea with. That is what makes war inherently unjust, and I would say, even evil. I have no way of knowing whether my enemy is really a cruel and despicable person, or an honorable and just man. In fact, more often than not he'd probably be the latter.

Oh policemen take orders like everyone else. Sometimes they will have to charge into the dens of enemies. Maybe those enemies have endearing qualities? Maybe they have a great sense of humor? But they've made a mistake on that day.


Or a means with which to execute the king's tyrannical plan to subjugate a neighbor's resources?

If the status of a thing was based on its most devious use, then we would have to abandon most things.

Lloyd Braun
12-17-2007, 10:04 PM
Oh policemen take orders like everyone else. Sometimes they will have to charge into the dens of enemies. Maybe those enemies have endearing qualities? Maybe they have a great sense of humor? But they've made a mistake on that day.

C'mon now SK. I think the similarity between the two is a little thin here. That humerous mob kingpin about to be busted by a squad of gun-toting policemen? He probably did something wrong. Like whacking people. That sweaty PFC that I've got my sniper bead on? What did he do wrong? Besides sign up at the wrong time that is...

Moreover it's not really a policemen's job to first and foremost, kill people. For the military, that is their job. To kill people.

Now sometimes that's necessary. I'd like to think we'll get better in refraining from offing ourselves however, but that's another story. Most of the time it isn't. The bottom line is that I can't bring myself to off another human being who simply had some miserable luck, but who would otherwise be somebody that I could call a friend had our meeting been at another time and another place.

Anyways I'm off to bed. Too much R&P is bad for you.

paolo59
12-18-2007, 12:06 AM
Thank goodness Scotland borders Engand! They are as connected as history can produce over the course of centuries. What would Scotland be without England?

StrongInChrist
12-18-2007, 12:27 AM
Random Irish Dude > William Wallace

Weightaholic
12-18-2007, 01:01 AM
Scots love a good fight.

I loved it when Glasgow airport was bombed, and they interviewed one of the Scots who pulled the burning coward out of the car and gave him a bit of a kicking for his trouble, and he simply said "Come to Glasgow, and we'll do ye". :D

Plus, there's nothing in the world like the skirl of the bagpipes. Awesome!

(yes part Scottish)

SYRIANKID
12-18-2007, 07:09 PM
Bump.

IraHays
12-18-2007, 07:10 PM
The problem with Syria is that it is full of Syrians.

Oh wait...wrong movie.

SYRIANKID
12-18-2007, 07:13 PM
The problem with Syria is that it is full of Syrians.

Oh wait...wrong movie.

Syrians are good people, you'd love Syria. But yes we are dealing with the Syrian density by exporting Syrians to the world.

IraHays
12-18-2007, 07:17 PM
Syrians are good people, you'd love Syria. But yes we are dealing with the Syrian density by exporting Syrians to the world.

hehe.

I actually wait for the day when I can visit the countries of the middle east. They look beautiful in pictures.

nrellas
12-18-2007, 07:19 PM
Featured with sparse historical accuracy in Gibson's "Braveheart"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wallace

Do you think his actions were defensible? Would you have done what he did? If not, would you have at least supported his cause?

Regardless of whether or not I believe the were defensible (and I do, and i would have done the same) I have the utmost respect for him and anyone willing to die for such a cause, especially that which is greater that oneself.

Beatitude
12-18-2007, 07:19 PM
hehe.

I actually wait for the day when I can visit the countries of the middle east. They look beautiful in pictures.

No they don't they look like crap.

SYRIANKID
12-18-2007, 07:22 PM
No they don't they look like crap.

You're only shown the bombed out parts. It's not in anyone's advantage to show you anything else.

SYRIANKID
12-18-2007, 07:23 PM
hehe.

I actually wait for the day when I can visit the countries of the middle east. They look beautiful in pictures.

Well you can visit them now, just don't go into the war zones.

IraHays
12-18-2007, 07:23 PM
No they don't they look like crap.

lol? Well I'm not talking about downtown Baghdag.

IraHays
12-18-2007, 07:25 PM
Well you can visit them now, just don't go into the war zones.

I wouldn't feel safe in certain places. I would have to do a lot of research to find out where I wanted to go and weight it against safety.

SYRIANKID
12-18-2007, 07:26 PM
I wouldn't feel safe in certain places. I would have to do a lot of research to find out where I wanted to go and weight it against safety.

Dude it is pure propaganda that the Middle East isn't safe. Right now, Iraq and Afghanistan are NOT safe. Everywhere else is normal.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=3767171&highlight=syria

IraHays
12-18-2007, 07:29 PM
Dude it is pure propaganda that the Middle East isn't safe. Right now, Iraq and Afghanistan are NOT safe. Everywhere else is normal.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=3767171&highlight=syria

Bookmarked thread for later.

Would you consider it safe to just travel around on your own or do you have to be with a tour group?

Dave22reborn
12-18-2007, 07:30 PM
Dude it is pure propaganda that the Middle East isn't safe. Right now, Iraq and Afghanistan are NOT safe. Everywhere else is normal.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=3767171&highlight=syria

I don't have enought money to go, but I would like to see the
UAE, and Kuwait.

SYRIANKID
12-18-2007, 07:32 PM
I don't have enought money to go, but I would like to see the
UAE, and Kuwait.

Save your money, go to Las Vegas instead of UAE they're pretty much the same except I think UAE has a higher hooker density.

Kuwait is cool though.

SYRIANKID
12-18-2007, 07:33 PM
Bookmarked thread for later.

Would you consider it safe to just travel around on your own or do you have to be with a tour group?

It's safe to go by yourself but you want to connect with a tour because they tell you all the sweet spots to visit.

jnani
12-18-2007, 07:39 PM
I don't have enought money to go, but I would like to see the
UAE, and Kuwait.

Here's a suggestion for you; Try to spent some time in the Occupied Territories with Palestinian families. Let them take you on a trip and do some 'travelling' around. It'll be a life changing experience.

osamaelias
12-18-2007, 07:40 PM
It's safe to go by yourself but you want to connect with a tour because they tell you all the sweet spots to visit.

I lived in Dimashq for 6-7 months , while waiting for my visa :) , oh man i loved the ice cream , and btw i love when they scream in the fruit areas
"karamantina ya helooooo" , think it mean oh sweet tomatoes.

SYRIANKID
12-18-2007, 07:40 PM
Here's a suggestion for you; Try to spent some time in the Occupied Territories with Palestinian families. Let them take you on a trip and do some 'travelling' around. It'll be a life changing experience.

The guy said he wants to go on a vacation, not dodge IDF bullets and missiles.

Beatitude
12-18-2007, 07:41 PM
Here's a suggestion for you; Try to spent some time in the Occupied Territories with Palestinian families. Let them take you on a trip and do some 'travelling' around. It'll be a life changing experience.

I actually kind of do want to check out Palestine, that's one of the few areas of interest to me in the Asia Minor area. But only because it's a political hot spot.

EOY
12-18-2007, 07:46 PM
Save your money, go to Las Vegas instead of UAE they're pretty much the same except I think UAE has a higher hooker density.

Kuwait is cool though.

Actually, if I were an American looking for tourism in the Middle East, I would probably avoid the entire gulf region altogether. With the exception of Saudi Arabia and perhaps Uman, there really isn't much to see, at least nothing so exciting that you'd travel halfway across the planet to see. Of course, that's all assuming that as an American I wouldn't be interested in shopping/city life because that's already available in the states. But for those who are looking for urban tourism, then yeah, Dubai is a good choice, but not Kuwait.

My list would look like this:

Egypt
Jordan
The Sham region (Syria and Lebanon)
Saudi Arabia

Those countries have a lot to offer in terms of natural scenery, culture, and historic sights.

The only historic sight in Kuwait that I can think of is Failaka Island :D.

jnani
12-18-2007, 07:48 PM
The guy said he wants to go on a vacation, not dodge IDF bullets and missiles.

;) I tried to dodge those and failed. But yes, I agree, a trip to the OPT isn't what some people would consider a vacation.

Dave22reborn
12-18-2007, 07:53 PM
Actually, if I were an American looking for tourism in the Middle East, I would probably avoid the entire gulf region altogether. With the exception of Saudi Arabia and perhaps Uman, there really isn't much to see, at least nothing so exciting that you'd travel halfway across the planet to see. Of course, that's all assuming that as an American I wouldn't be interested in shopping/city life because that's already available in the states. But for those who are looking for urban tourism, then yeah, Dubai is a good choice, but not Kuwait.

My list would look like this:

Egypt
Jordan
The Sham region (Syria and Lebanon)
Saudi Arabia

Those countries have a lot to offer in terms of natural scenery, culture, and historic sights.

The only historic sight in Kuwait that I can think of is Failaka Island :D.

Well, I'm not a female, nor gay, nor a metrosexual, so I could care less about shopping/ clubbing.

But nice list anyway.

Lloyd Braun
12-18-2007, 07:56 PM
Somehow we got from discussing a 13th century Scottish rebel to favorite tourist destinations in the Middle-East??

Meh. I've always wanted to travel to the Mid-East as well, particularly the Gulf States. Egypt would be fascinating as well. And of course walking in Christ's footsteps would be a truly memorable experience.

SYRIANKID
12-18-2007, 07:58 PM
And of course walking in Christ's footsteps would be a truly memorable experience.

You mean as a bearded, moral man condemning the actions of the nation of Israel? You would be blocked by checkpoints and harassed by the IDF.

Melkor
12-18-2007, 08:49 PM
Bump.

What is your opinion SK? I would assume you have one or you wouldn't have asked right?

I don't know enough about the historical figure himself to have a strong opinion, but I will say that those who fight for freedom and against oppression tend to gain my respect. Those who fight for the opposite tend to piss me off. lol

guest89
12-18-2007, 09:02 PM
The odds were heavily stacked against the disunited peasant Scots. Could you handle what William Wallace went through or are you the kind of person who can be bribed by the British?


Depends on the situation. If my country and people would be better off/greatly benefited under this other country thats one thing. If we are "conquered" and ruled, well, thats another thing entirely.

Honestly I've never been in that type of situation so its really hard to sit back and think about, however, I can say I have certain values that cannot be bought.

I wouldn't sell out/be a traitor to my country for any price. I'd do a lot of things for money, some pretty screwed up, but there are certain things money just couldn't bribe me to do.

paolo59
12-19-2007, 12:04 AM
I thought this thread was about William Wallace? My mistake or no? I thought his head looked good on Tower Bridge.