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View Full Version : Can a catholic deny creationism?



Throwback
10-25-2005, 09:34 AM
Had a discussion with someone who is a Catholic who said he didnt beleive in Creationism or Intelligent design, and supported evolution. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with his beleifs... but it seems odd that he can call himself a devout Catholic and reject creationism. He stated that there is nothing in the New Testatment or Catholic doctrine that requires him or any Catholic to be a creationist. I'm not a religious expert, but I have a feeling he is wrong. Can anyone support or disprove his statements?

I guess two ways of proving my point would be to show:

1. Does the New Testament state anything in regards to creationism, or is it not mentioned
2. Do Catholics support the Old Testament?

sword_
10-25-2005, 09:36 AM
Fully deny Creationalism? No.

Throwback
10-25-2005, 09:37 AM
Fully deny Creationalism? No.
Is there a specific passage in the New Testament, or something requiring them to practice what is in the Old Testament? I'm just curious about this as I would like to show him and get his feedback.

Oldbastard
10-25-2005, 10:55 AM
You cannot deny creationism, or for that matter be pro abortion, among many other things, and be a catholic. You can call yourself one, but in the eyes of the church you are not. This is what people don't seem to get, you have to believe it all, you can't pick and choose what you want to believe and still be a catholic.

Flex500
10-25-2005, 11:04 AM
Had a discussion with someone who is a Catholic who said he didnt beleive in Creationism or Intelligent design, and supported evolution. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with his beleifs... but it seems odd that he can call himself a devout Catholic and reject creationism. He stated that there is nothing in the New Testatment or Catholic doctrine that requires him or any Catholic to be a creationist. I'm not a religious expert, but I have a feeling he is wrong. Can anyone support or disprove his statements?

I guess two ways of proving my point would be to show:

1. Does the New Testament state anything in regards to creationism, or is it not mentioned
2. Do Catholics support the Old Testament?


actually many catholics do not take things like genesis and what not to be a literal interpretation of what happened. Hell my mom and girlfriend both went to catholic schools and in both time periods they were taught that some of the things in genesis did not really happen in a literal sense.

dannytaki
10-25-2005, 11:08 AM
Didn't the pope support evolution? I'm not too sure about it. But, if he did then that would explain why he supports it.

Diesel66
10-25-2005, 11:59 AM
depends on what he meant. Creationism as in the 6 days God snapping his fingers. Then yes you still can be a Catholic.

if he meant creationism as a powerful being creating us using any method including evolution, then no that makes no sense for most religions.

taz55
10-25-2005, 12:35 PM
i think most people with any common sense will belive in evolution and the whole seven days thing is bs. but most religous types also say that god started the whole thing. and try to work around it like that.

IceDragon
10-25-2005, 12:40 PM
In general, the gods were created, created other things and it led on from there, they were literally left to their own devices, same as the humans. I haven't read enough of the Codex Regius yet to actually know for sure, but that's what it's looking like to me at the moment. :)

Fitqb
10-25-2005, 12:44 PM
Didn't the pope support evolution? I'm not too sure about it. But, if he did then that would explain why he supports it.

He practically did, when he said that evolution isn't incompatible with the church's teachings. You know that he would NEVER say that without evolution having overwhelming supporting evidence. I think he did this with the whole 'flat world/earth center of the universe' fiasco in mind.

Throwback
10-25-2005, 12:59 PM
But is there any specific passage in the New Testament that says anything about creationism? Is there anything in the New Testament that says to follow what is in the Old Testament?

bluesky3
10-25-2005, 04:29 PM
Had a discussion with someone who is a Catholic who said he didnt beleive in Creationism or Intelligent design, and supported evolution. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with his beleifs... but it seems odd that he can call himself a devout Catholic and reject creationism. He stated that there is nothing in the New Testatment or Catholic doctrine that requires him or any Catholic to be a creationist. I'm not a religious expert, but I have a feeling he is wrong. Can anyone support or disprove his statements?

I guess two ways of proving my point would be to show:

1. Does the New Testament state anything in regards to creationism, or is it not mentioned
2. Do Catholics support the Old Testament?
Catholics accept what the Pope tells them. The Pope (and previous Popes) have accepted and encouraged theistic evolution. Theistic evolution (obviously) includes creation, but doesnt deny reality.
Even with other denominations (Protestant, etc), only a radical few support the relatively recent interpretation of the Bible that says the universe is only 6,000 years old.

Of course, to be a YEC/OEC/IDC you have to deny biology, physics, chemistry... No, nothing in Catholicism requires you to be scientifically retarded.

JBDW
10-25-2005, 05:35 PM
Catholics accept what the Pope tells them. The Pope (and previous Popes) have accepted and encouraged theistic evolution. Theistic evolution (obviously) includes creation, but doesnt deny reality.
Even with other denominations (Protestant, etc), only a radical few support the relatively recent interpretation of the Bible that says the universe is only 6,000 years old.

Of course, to be a YEC/OEC/IDC you have to deny biology, physics, chemistry... No, nothing in Catholicism requires you to be scientifically retarded.

Thank goodness for that. But why are so many people against catholics? I seem to notice that of all the Christian groups, Catholics seem to get scorned the most..

theredshirt
10-25-2005, 06:49 PM
Thank goodness for that. But why are so many people against catholics? I seem to notice that of all the Christian groups, Catholics seem to get scorned the most..
i have my own theory as to why. its based only on assumptions but here it is. Catholics tend to be more liberal then christians. this leads to many problems. the pope is very ant war, christians support some wars. the pope doesnt deny evolution, a majority of christians deny evolution of the species. these are all generalizations that i am making. but i believe that these can be some reasons for this. a lot of catholics i know aren't anti abortion because they feel the government shouldnt step in on the issue, even though they would never have an abortion themselves.

theredshirt
10-25-2005, 06:54 PM
to the poster, it is to my knowledge that jesus speaks of Adam and Eve in an indirect way as to how they brought sin into the world. many christians and catholics for that matter, will site this as to why creationism is indeed the way the world started.

in my opinion your friend is a very logical person and wants to believe in a god, has always been brought up believing in jesus and god, but he is unable to do the full leap of faith required to fully believe in every word of the bible. many people loosely call themselves christians or catholics and dont actually know anything about the bible. i have studied it to a great deal of late, and i can honestly say i know more about the bible then most christians (aside from this forum) that i debate. in fact, just the other day i was having a debate with a christian and i said, "the creation story says man was created first then animals" so that means dinosaurs lived with man. of course this is not how it is written, and this is only like a paragraph into the bible, but the girl said, "well it takes faith, plus i believe we lived during dinosaur era". ok so she was just a hot blond that i was trying to hook up with, but i have ran into many people like this, where i can make up what the bible says and they will try to justify it, and it is clearly not in the bible.

frankenstein
10-25-2005, 08:11 PM
that's hilarious redshirt. well what you described is the first of many contradictions in the OT. One part says god made the heavens, earth, animals, then decided to make man and woman together. Another part says god made man, and while man was asleep, he took a rib and made woman. The stories totally conflict each other. That's after plenty of editors took a look through the bible. Can you imagine what the first drafts of the bible were like?

Sure a catholic can deny creationism. He can believe in evolution. The bible doesn't have to be taken literally word for word as history of the universe. Few people do. They're fundamentalists and they are fundamentally crazy. They think things like Satan put dinosaur bones on earth to trick us. Or that we lived with dinosaurs. Or that God put them here to test our faith (he's a prankster alright)

theredshirt
10-26-2005, 12:06 AM
that's hilarious redshirt. well what you described is the first of many contradictions in the OT. One part says god made the heavens, earth, animals, then decided to make man and woman together. Another part says god made man, and while man was asleep, he took a rib and made woman. The stories totally conflict each other. That's after plenty of editors took a look through the bible. Can you imagine what the first drafts of the bible were like?

Sure a catholic can deny creationism. He can believe in evolution. The bible doesn't have to be taken literally word for word as history of the universe. Few people do. They're fundamentalists and they are fundamentally crazy. They think things like Satan put dinosaur bones on earth to trick us. Or that we lived with dinosaurs. Or that God put them here to test our faith (he's a prankster alright)
ive done other pranks too, such as saying something really big like, well jesus had a wife and a baby, why do priests have to stay celibate. now i know most christians would say, "your full of ****, no he didnt" but i have honestly gotten responses like "well jesus is perfect, and having a child is the perfect expression of love, and he had a child out of perfect unconditional love". then i said, "well why didnt his kid continue on the legacy, the jews ended up killing his kid off too, it blatantly says that in the bible" they respond "Well the jews did not believe jesus so i am not surprised they killed his son too."

that is one of the reasons i like debating about the topic, because through my experiences i have found that most christians (that I) have come across, have such a minimal understanding of what (the bible claims) is the most important aspect of their life. if the bible is your testament to god, you must know the ins and outs of it, and not just the overall message, but you must know it in its entirety.