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NO HYPE
11-24-2007, 01:47 PM
I recently participated in a thread dealing with this, and I'm glad that the subject of vanadyl sulfate in our supplements, was brought to my attention however.... I wanted to compile all of my information, and present it in a seperate thread (as I feel that it is more appropriately titled, and I am more than willing to confront any company reps on this issue).

It turns out that the majority of companies that are including this substance in their formulations, are doing so, WITHOUT ANY REGUARDS TO TOXICITY.

Taking .5 to 1 mg a day of vanadyl sulfate is enough to meet or exceed nutritional requirements, without risking toxicity. Most of the bodybuilding supplements contain a minimum of 5 mg.... and up to 30 mg!!!!

"High doses of vanadium (anything over 15 mg/day) may cause liver and/or kidney damage."

Taking 0.5 to 1.0 mg/day of vanadium is enough to meet or exceed nutritional requirements, without risking toxicity. No more than 1.8 mg/day should be used in people. Some manufacturers promote high dosages (15 to 100 mg) of vanadyl sulfate per day, but studies do not support such dosages, and they may be toxic. Because the safety and effectiveness of vanadium have not been thoroughly studied, caution should be exercised when using vanadium as a nutritional supplement.

Uses

The effects of vanadium have not been studied extensively in people. The majority of studies to date have been conducted in laboratory animals.

Body Building/Performance Enhancement

While vanadyl sulfate is widely used by athletes to enhance performance, beneficial effects have not been confirmed by studies. Use of vanadium is not advised because of the potential toxic effects associated with high doses of this mineral.

Material Safety Data Sheet

EMERGENCY OVERVIEW

Warning! Causes eye and skin irritation. Causes digestive and respiratory tract irritation. May cause liver and kidney damage.
Target Organs: Kidneys, liver, respiratory system, eyes, skin.

Ingestion: May cause severe gastrointestinal tract irritation with nausea, vomiting and possible burns. May cause liver and kidney damage. May cause central nervous system effects and/or neurological effects. May cause greenish-black tongue discoloration due to deposition of vanadium salts. Ingestion of large amounts may cause an increase in blood pressure.

Eye: May cause eye irritation and possible damage.

Skin: Contact with skin causes irritation and possible burns, especially if the skin is wet or moist. Contact with the skin may cause skin lesions which are characterized by cracking of the skin and the development of slow-healing ulcers.

https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/24800.htm

I really find it interesting that there are about six NO products on bb.com that contain vanadyl sulfate.... too bad it has been shown to induce pulmonary vasoconstriction, as a result of NO inhibition.

Environ Health Perspect. 2004 Feb;112(2):201-6.

Vanadyl sulfate inhibits NO production via threonine phosphorylation of eNOS.

Exposure to excessive vanadium occurs in some occupations and with consumption of some dietary regimens for weight reduction and body building. Because vanadium is vasoactive, individuals exposed to excessive vanadium may develop adverse vascular effects. We have previously shown that vanadyl sulfate causes acute pulmonary vasoconstriction, which could be attributed in part to inhibition of nitric oxide production. In the present study we investigated whether NO inhibition was related to phosphorylation of endothelial nitric oxide synthase (eNOS). VOSO4 produced dose-dependent constriction of pulmonary arteries in isolated perfused lungs and pulmonary arterial rings and a right shift of the acetylcholine-dependent vasorelaxation curve. VOSO4 inhibited constitutive as well as A23187-stimulated NO production. Constitutive NO inhibition was accompanied by increased Thr495 (threonine at codon 495) phosphorylation of eNOS, which would inhibit eNOS activity. Thr495 phosphorylation of eNOS and inhibition of NO were partially reversed by pretreatment with calphostin C, a protein kinase C (PKC) inhibitor. There were no changes in Ser1177 (serine at codon 1177) or tyrosine phosphorylation of eNOS. These results indicate that VOSO4 induced acute pulmonary vasoconstriction that was mediated in part by the inhibition of endothelial NO production via PKC-dependent phosphorylation of Thr495 of eNOS. Exposure to excessive vanadium may contribute to pulmonary vascular diseases.

Here is more incriminating evidence....

J Inorg Biochem. 1994 Aug 1;55(2):101-12. Links

One-electron reduction of vanadate by ascorbate and related free radical generation at physiological pH.

Oxy-vanadium (IV) complexes having spermicidal activity
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6245808-fulltext.html

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T38-4HC6J3R-1&_user=10&_coverDate=01%2F01%2F2006&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=07286ce21f8a59f073c9654615a39359

Vanadium(IV)-mediated free radical generation and related 2'-deoxyguanosine hydroxylation and DNA damage http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/els/0300483x/1996/00000106/00000001/art03151

Vanadium(IV) causes 2'-deoxyguanosine hydroxylation and deoxyribonucleic acid damage via free radical reactions http://www.annclinlabsci.org/cgi/content/abstract/26/1/39

NO HYPE
11-24-2007, 01:54 PM
I dont get why some manufacturers insist on including Vanadyl Sulfate in their formulas. Theres much better glucose disposal agents available, plus theres evidence indicating its not only worthless for adding muscle, but also toxic in doses over 1000mcg a day. The "average" dose most manufacturers include is 5mg per serving. I feel strongly about this because I myself have experienced toxicity off this mineral. I was using ON VS5000, and after following the directions began experiencing flu and depression-like symptoms. One of my friends had his tongue turn blue after 3 months on this crap. I only thank god the side-effects subsided once I quit taking the product. What do you all think about this?

Ingestion: May cause severe gastrointestinal tract irritation with nausea, vomiting and possible burns. May cause liver and kidney damage. May cause central nervous system effects and/or neurological effects. May cause greenish-black tongue discoloration due to deposition of vanadium salts. Ingestion of large amounts may cause an increase in blood pressure.

CognitiveNutrition
11-24-2007, 01:54 PM
I recently participated in a thread dealing with this, and I'm glad that the subject of vanadyl sulfate in our supplements, was brought to my attention however.... I wanted to compile all of my information, and present it in a seperate thread (as I feel that it is more appropriately titled, and I am more than willing to confront any company reps on this issue).

It turns out that the majority of companies that are including this substance in their formulations, are doing so, WITHOUT ANY REGUARDS TO TOXICITY.

Taking .5 to 1 mg a day of vanadyl sulfate is enough to meet or exceed nutritional requirements, without risking toxicity. Most of the bodybuilding supplements contain a minimum of 5 mg.... and up to 30 mg!!!!

Material Safety Data Sheet

EMERGENCY OVERVIEW

Warning! Causes eye and skin irritation. Causes digestive and respiratory tract irritation. May cause liver and kidney damage.
Target Organs: Kidneys, liver, respiratory system, eyes, skin.

Ingestion: May cause severe gastrointestinal tract irritation with nausea, vomiting and possible burns. May cause liver and kidney damage. May cause central nervous system effects and/or neurological effects. May cause greenish-black tongue discoloration due to deposition of vanadium salts. Ingestion of large amounts may cause an increase in blood pressure.

Eye: May cause eye irritation and possible damage.

Skin: Contact with skin causes irritation and possible burns, especially if the skin is wet or moist. Contact with the skin may cause skin lesions which are characterized by cracking of the skin and the development of slow-healing ulcers.

https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/24800.htm

Here is more incriminating evidence....

J Inorg Biochem. 1994 Aug 1;55(2):101-12. Links

One-electron reduction of vanadate by ascorbate and related free radical generation at physiological pH.

Oxy-vanadium (IV) complexes having spermicidal activity
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6245808-fulltext.html

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T38-4HC6J3R-1&_user=10&_coverDate=01%2F01%2F2006&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=07286ce21f8a59f073c9654615a39359

Vanadium(IV)-mediated free radical generation and related 2'-deoxyguanosine hydroxylation and DNA damage http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/els/0300483x/1996/00000106/00000001/art03151

Vanadium(IV) causes 2'-deoxyguanosine hydroxylation and deoxyribonucleic acid damage via free radical reactions http://www.annclinlabsci.org/cgi/content/abstract/26/1/39

May being the key word. The title is a tad melodramatic.

leonidas300
11-24-2007, 01:58 PM
May being the key word.

Well tell me how many times these studies definitively say "will" cause. Technically smoking cigarettes "may" lead to lung cancer and heart disease, so your argument lacks merit.

NO HYPE
11-24-2007, 01:58 PM
May being the key word.

Either way.... there's a lot of "Mays" there.

I'd like to see some justification for it being included in our supplements in the first place.

CognitiveNutrition
11-24-2007, 02:00 PM
Either way.... there's a lot of "Mays" there.

I'd like to see some justification for it being included in our supplements in the first place.

Study 1:

Erratum in:
Diabetes 1996 Sep;45(9):1285.
Oral vanadyl sulfate improves insulin sensitivity in NIDDM but not in obese nondiabetic subjects.Halberstam M, Cohen N, Shlimovich P, Rossetti L, Shamoon H.
Department of Medicine, Diabetes Research Center, Albert Einstein College of Medicine, Bronx, NY 10461, USA.

We compared the effects of oral vanadyl sulfate (100 mg/day) in moderately obese NIDDM and nondiabetic subjects. Three-hour euglycemic-hyperinsulinemic (insulin infusion 30 mU / m / min) clamps were performed after 2 weeks of placebo and 3 weeks of vanadyl sulfate treatment in six nondiabetic control subjects (age 37 +/- 3 years; BMI 29.5 +/- 2.4 kg/m2 ) and seven NIDDM subjects (age 53 +/- 2 years; BMI 28.7 +/-1.8 kg/m2). Glucose turnover ([3-3 H]glucose), glycolysis from plasma glucose, glycogen synthesis, and whole-body carbohydrate and lipid oxidation were evaluated. Decreases in fasting plasma glucose (by approximately 1.7 mmol/l) and HbAlc (both P < 0.05) were observed in NIDDM subjects during treatment; plasma glucose was unchanged in control subjects. In the latter, the glucose infusion rate (GIR) required to maintain euglycemia (40.1 +/- 5.7 and 38.1 +/- 4.8 micromol / kg fat-free mass FFM / min) and glucose disposal (Rd) (41.7 +/- 5.7 and 38.9 +/-4.7 micromol / kg FFM / min were similar during placebo and vanadyl sulfate administration, respectively. Hepatic glucose output (HGO) was completely suppressed in both studies. In contrast, in NIDDM subjects, vanadyl sulfate increased GIR approximately 82% (17.3 +/- 4.7 to 30.9 +/- 2.7 micromol / kg FFM / min, P < 0.05); this improvement in insulin sensitivity was due to both augmented stimulation of Rd (26.0 +/-4.0 vs. 33.6 +/- 2.22 micromol / kg FFM / min, P < 0.05) and enhanced suppression of HGO (7.7 +/- 3.1 vs. 1.3 +/- 0.9 micromol / kg FFM / min, P < 0.05). Increased insulin-stimulated glycogen synthesis accounted for >80% of the increased Rd with vanadyl sulfate (P < 0.005), but plasma glucose flux via glycolysis was unchanged. In NIDDM subjects, vanadyl sulfate was also associated with greater suppression of plasma free fatty acids (FFAs) (P < 0.01) and lipid oxidation (P < 0.05) during clamps. The reduction in HGO and increase in Rd were both highly correlated with the decline in plasma FFA concentrations during the clamp period (P < 0.001). In conclusion, small oral doses of vanadyl sulfate do not alter insulin sensitivity in nondiabetic subjects, but it does improve both hepatic and skeletal muscle insulin sensitivity in NIDDM subjects in part by enhancing insulin's inhibitory effect on lipolysis. These data suggest that vanadyl sulfate may improve a defect in insulin signaling specific to NIDDM.

NO HYPE
11-24-2007, 02:01 PM
The title is a tad melodramatic.

I've found more evidence for vanadyl's toxicity.... than it's nutritional efficacy.

CognitiveNutrition
11-24-2007, 02:03 PM
Study 2

J Clin Invest. 1995 Jun;95(6):2501-9. Links
Oral vanadyl sulfate improves hepatic and peripheral insulin sensitivity in patients with non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus.

Cohen N, Halberstam M, Shlimovich P, Chang CJ, Shamoon H, Rossetti L.
Department of Medicine, Albert Einstein College of Medicine, New York 10461, USA.

We examined the in vivo metabolic effects of vanadyl sulfate (VS) in non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus (NIDDM). Six NIDDM subjects treated with diet and/or sulfonylureas were examined at the end of three consecutive periods: placebo for 2 wk, VS (100 mg/d) for 3 wk, and placebo for 2 wk. Euglycemic hyperinsulinemic (30 mU/m2.min) clamps and oral glucose tolerance tests were performed at the end of each study period. Glycemic control at baseline was poor (fasting plasma glucose 210 +/- 19 mg/dl; HbA1c 9.6 +/- 0.6%) and improved after treatment (181 +/- 14 mg/dl [P < 0.05], 8.8 +/- 0.6%, [P < 0.002]); fasting and post-glucose tolerance test plasma insulin concentrations were unchanged. After VS, the glucose infusion rate during the clamp was increased (by approximately 88%, from 1.80 to 3.38 mg/kg.min, P < 0.0001). This improvement was due to both enhanced insulin-mediated stimulation of glucose uptake (rate of glucose disposal [Rd], +0.89 mg/kg.min) and increased inhibition of HGP (-0.74 mg/kg.min) (P < 0.0001 for both). Increased insulin-stimulated glycogen synthesis (+0.74 mg/kg.min, P < 0.0003) accounted for > 80% of the increased Rd after VS, and the improvement in insulin sensitivity was maintained after the second placebo period. The Km of skeletal muscle glycogen synthase was lowered by approximately 30% after VS treatment (P < 0.05). These results indicate that 3 wk of treatment with VS improves hepatic and peripheral insulin sensitivity in insulin-resistant NIDDM humans. These effects were sustained for up to 2 wk after discontinuation of VS.

CognitiveNutrition
11-24-2007, 02:04 PM
I've found more evidence for vanadyl's toxicity.... than it's nutritional efficacy.

Thats because it's a metal I could find the same for many metals. Especially trace minerals like boron.

Human studies show it can be safely used and effective for certain uses. Your only point is meta dosing or using toxic forms should be avoided. Which is common knowledge to me.

leonidas300
11-24-2007, 02:05 PM
. In conclusion, small oral doses of vanadyl sulfate do not alter insulin sensitivity in nondiabetic subjects, but it does improve both hepatic and skeletal muscle insulin sensitivity in NIDDM subjects in part by enhancing insulin's inhibitory effect on lipolysis. These data suggest that vanadyl sulfate may improve a defect in insulin signaling specific to NIDDM.

So this is your rebuttal? So it does nothing for nondiabetic subject and "may" improve a defect in insulin signaling in diabetics. Well that has many profound uses for us nondiabetic weight trainers and it really refuted NO HYPE's toxicity concerns :rolleyes:

CognitiveNutrition
11-24-2007, 02:06 PM
Mol Cell Biochem. 2006 Jun;286(1-2):153-9. Epub 2006 Mar 11. Links
Vanadyl sulfate administration protects the streptozotocin-induced oxidative damage to brain tissue in rats.Yanardag R, Tunali S.
Faculty of Engineering, Department of Chemistry, Istanbul University, 34320 Avcilar, Istanbul, Turkey. yanardag@istanbul.edu.tr

Diabetes mellitus manifests itself in a wide variety of complications and the symptoms of the disease are multifactorial. The present study was carried out to investigate the effects of vanadyl sulfate on biochemical parameters, enzyme activities and brain lipid peroxidation, glutathione and nonenzymatic glycosylation of normal- and streptozotocin-diabetic rats. Streptozotocin (STZ) was administered as a single dose (65 mg/kg) to induce diabetes. A dose of 100 mg/kg vanadyl sulfate was orally administered daily to STZ-diabetic and normal rats, separately until the end of the experiment, at day 60. In STZ-diabetic group, blood glucose, serum sialic and uric acid levels, serum catalase (CAT) and lactate dehydrogenase (LDH) activities, brain lipid peroxidation (LPO) and nonenzymatic glycosylation (NEG) increased, while brain glutathione (GSH) level and body weight decreased. In the diabetic group given vanadyl sulfate, blood glucose, serum sialic and uric acid levels, serum CAT and LDH activities and brain LPO and NEG levels decreased, but brain GSH and body weight increased.The present study showed that vanadyl sulfate exerted antioxidant effects and consequently may prevent brain damage caused by streptozotocin-induced diabetes.

NO HYPE
11-24-2007, 02:06 PM
interestingly, one study found that vanadyl supplementation did not help with insulin sensiivity in non-diabetic obese individuals.

Diabetes. 1996 May;45(5):659-66.

Oral vanadyl sulfate improves insulin sensitivity in NIDDM but not in obese nondiabetic subjects.

Halberstam M, Cohen N, Shlimovich P, Rossetti L, Shamoon H.
Department of Medicine, Diabetes Research Center, Albert Einstein College of Medicine, Bronx, NY 10461, USA.

We compared the effects of oral vanadyl sulfate (100 mg/day) in moderately obese NIDDM and nondiabetic subjects. Three-hour euglycemic-hyperinsulinemic (insulin infusion 30 mU / m / min) clamps were performed after 2 weeks of placebo and 3 weeks of vanadyl sulfate treatment in six nondiabetic control subjects (age 37 +/- 3 years; BMI 29.5 +/- 2.4 kg/m2 ) and seven NIDDM subjects (age 53 +/- 2 years; BMI 28.7 +/-1.8 kg/m2). Glucose turnover ([3-3 H]glucose), glycolysis from plasma glucose, glycogen synthesis, and whole-body carbohydrate and lipid oxidation were evaluated. Decreases in fasting plasma glucose (by approximately 1.7 mmol/l) and HbAlc (both P < 0.05) were observed in NIDDM subjects during treatment; plasma glucose was unchanged in control subjects. In the latter, the glucose infusion rate (GIR) required to maintain euglycemia (40.1 +/- 5.7 and 38.1 +/- 4.8 micromol / kg fat-free mass FFM / min) and glucose disposal (Rd) (41.7 +/- 5.7 and 38.9 +/-4.7 micromol / kg FFM / min were similar during placebo and vanadyl sulfate administration, respectively. Hepatic glucose output (HGO) was completely suppressed in both studies. In contrast, in NIDDM subjects, vanadyl sulfate increased GIR approximately 82% (17.3 +/- 4.7 to 30.9 +/- 2.7 micromol / kg FFM / min, P < 0.05); this improvement in insulin sensitivity was due to both augmented stimulation of Rd (26.0 +/-4.0 vs. 33.6 +/- 2.22 micromol / kg FFM / min, P < 0.05) and enhanced suppression of HGO (7.7 +/- 3.1 vs. 1.3 +/- 0.9 micromol / kg FFM / min, P < 0.05). Increased insulin-stimulated glycogen synthesis accounted for >80% of the increased Rd with vanadyl sulfate (P < 0.005), but plasma glucose flux via glycolysis was unchanged. In NIDDM subjects, vanadyl sulfate was also associated with greater suppression of plasma free fatty acids (FFAs) (P < 0.01) and lipid oxidation (P < 0.05) during clamps. The reduction in HGO and increase in Rd were both highly correlated with the decline in plasma FFA concentrations during the clamp period (P < 0.001). In conclusion, small oral doses of vanadyl sulfate do not alter insulin sensitivity in nondiabetic subjects, but it does improve both hepatic and skeletal muscle insulin sensitivity in NIDDM subjects in part by enhancing insulin's inhibitory effect on lipolysis. These data suggest that vanadyl sulfate may improve a defect in insulin signaling specific to NIDDM.

not only it doesn't further improve insulin sensitivity in non-diabetics, it may also exert an anti-lipolytic effect!!!
..

CognitiveNutrition
11-24-2007, 02:08 PM
So this is your rebuttal? So it does nothing for nondiabetic subject and "may" improve a defect in insulin signaling in diabetics. Well that has many profound uses for us nondiabetic weight trainers and it really refuted NO HYPE's toxicity concerns :rolleyes:

Rebuttal? I don't have time really go into it or have our MD make a reply. Nice to see you had nothing to add to this.

However human studies have shown it can be safely used in the right dosages and forms.

If you have a problem with it don't take it or ask BB to drop it.

leonidas300
11-24-2007, 02:11 PM
Rebuttal? I don't have time really go into it or have our MD make a reply.

However human studies have shown it can be safely used in the right dosages and forms.

If you have a problem with it don't take it or ask BB to drop it.

Sure, get your MD on here and maybe he can post a relevant study because all of the studies you have posted only are of minimal significance to diabetics and you still have yet to post a study refuting NO HYPE's toxicity concerns. So post something relevant or stop posting. Are you just posting random studies regarding VS, because I fail to see anything even slightly relevant in what you are posting.

NO HYPE
11-24-2007, 02:12 PM
Oral vanadyl sulfate improves hepatic and peripheral insulin sensitivity in patients with non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus.

How does that help people of the bodybuilding community?

How does that justify it's inclusion in our supplements?

CognitiveNutrition
11-24-2007, 02:13 PM
Sure, get your MD on here and maybe he can post a relevant study because all of the studies you have posted only are of minimal significance to diabetics and you still have yet to post a study refuting NO HYPE's toxicity concerns. So post something relevant or stop posting.

Human studies showing no toxic effects and animal studies showing neuroprotective effects are solid data. I think this is abit above your understanding.

leonidas300
11-24-2007, 02:16 PM
Human studies showing no toxic effects and animal studies showing neuroprotective effects are solid data. I think this is abit above your understanding.

Those studies in no way demonstrate what you are claiming. You have some animal studies showing a possible antioxidant effect in diabetic rats, well I am convinced now!!! You are so full of it sometimes you startle me. I guarantee you my reading comprehension scores on my SAT's were better than yours as well ;)

BTW, Did you ever post those COA's for Estoppel?

CognitiveNutrition
11-24-2007, 02:16 PM
How does that help people of the bodybuilding community?

How does that justify it's inclusion in our supplements?

Who said it does?

It's an ultra trace mineral like lithium which plays a role in human health. I'm not aware any supplement needs to justify itself. Take it or not.

CognitiveNutrition
11-24-2007, 02:18 PM
Those studies in no way demonstrate what you are claiming. You are so full of it sometimes you startle me. I guarantee you my reading comprehension scores on my SAT's were better than yours as well ;)

BTW, Did you ever post those COA's for Estoppel?

I don't think you understand what I'm stating rather than claiming.
SAT's? You never took an IQ test or got into mensa did you?
Estoppel is an idiot spammer i usually avoid him like herpes.

leonidas300
11-24-2007, 02:18 PM
Who said it does?

It's an ultra trace mineral like lithium which plays a role in human health. I'm not aware any supplement needs to justify itself. Take it or not.

Coming from the guy selling lithium over the internet, that is real safe to be selling to people.

CognitiveNutrition
11-24-2007, 02:19 PM
Coming from the guy selling lithium over the internet, that is real safe to be selling to people.

You seem to need it. :)

leonidas300
11-24-2007, 02:20 PM
I don't think you understand what I'm stating rather than claiming.
SAT's? You never took an IQ test or got into mensa did you?
Estoppel is an idiot spammer i usually avoid him like herpes.

Steve, one day you and the FDA are going to have a nice sit down with each other.

CognitiveNutrition
11-24-2007, 02:25 PM
Steve, one day you and the FDA are going to have a nice sit down with each other.

We talk often. Some of my best friends are FDA officals. You should come over sometime for drinks.

I only hope all companies can match my demanding quality standards.

leonidas300
11-24-2007, 02:37 PM
We talk often. Some of my best friends are FDA officals. You should come over sometime for drinks.

I only hope all companies can match my demanding quality standards.

CognitiveNutrition
11-24-2007, 02:43 PM

We also know your company doesn not post it's COA's on their website.

PS. Nice profile.

leonidas300
11-24-2007, 02:47 PM
We also know your company doesn not post it's COA's on their website.

PS. Nice profile.

Our products our not quite as dangerous as yours either. Steve you are selling things that can seriously screw up a persons brain chemistry and you refuse to post any COA's or any 3rd party results. I still am shocked that you were on here pushing Lithium.

Feny
11-24-2007, 02:48 PM

please can we get back to the science of this? i'm taking a supplement with vandium... not sulfate... can this still lead to problems with toxicity?

CognitiveNutrition
11-24-2007, 02:49 PM
please can we get back to the science of this? i'm taking a supplement with vandium... not sulfate... can this still lead to problems with toxicity?

If taken in high doses any of form vandium can cause a problem like most supplements.

Sorry it seems some kids have nothing better to do.

ZDub212
11-24-2007, 02:49 PM
Leonidas...Steve...can you post published literature to back up your insults?

Is there any clinical data that shows that Leo is stupid...or that Steve is shady?

CognitiveNutrition
11-24-2007, 02:51 PM
Leonidas...Steve...can you post published literature to back up your insults?

Is there any clinical data that shows that Leo is stupid...or that Steve is shady?

Stupid and not having an advanced understanding of biochemistry and nutrition are too different things. So far Leo has added nothing to this thread aside from insults stemming from his inability to laugh at a funny joke i made.

Diab0lic
11-24-2007, 02:53 PM
Why take it anyway? Its an ultra-trace mineral

Surely supplementation with something like this is only effective if one is deficient?

Surely if you eat enough grains and veges your ass is covered?

CognitiveNutrition
11-24-2007, 02:54 PM
Why take it anyway? Its an ultra-trace mineral

Surely supplementation with something like this is only effective if one is deficient?

Surely if you eat enough grains and veges your ass is covered?

Most people probably have enough in their diet. I don't see much reason for anyone to take it.

gjohnson5
11-24-2007, 02:56 PM
?????

If there's an MSDS saying a chemical is toxic , then it's toxic.
Not sure what else you'd need...

Leonidas...Steve...can you post published literature to back up your insults?

Is there any clinical data that shows that Leo is stupid...or that Steve is shady?

leonidas300
11-24-2007, 02:59 PM
Leonidas...Steve...can you post published literature to back up your insults?

Is there any clinical data that shows that Leo is stupid...or that Steve is shady?

There was a study conducted by John Hopkins University to examine the intellectual brain power of people named Leonidas300 on bodybuilding.com. The study concluded that leonidas300's IQ is in the med/high genius realm + he is damned handsome. The study did note that leonidas300 does have trouble playing with others and has a propensity towards sarcasm.

CognitiveNutrition
11-24-2007, 03:09 PM
Insulin Mimicking Mineral

1. What is it and where does it come from?

Vanadyl sulfate, one of the most popular bodybuilding supplements, is derived from trace mineral vanadium. Bodybuilding.com carries the highest quality vanadyl sulfate available!

2. What does it do and what scientific studies give evidence to support this?

Athletes have long used vanadyl sulfate to increase their performance. It is believed to play a role in helping to regulate the body's healthy blood sugar levels, similar to insulin. Studies show that vanadyl sulfate mainly helps the muscle cells uptake glucose (instead of fat cells (adipocytes) uptaking glucose). Basically, by mimicking the actions of insulin, vanadyl sulfate forces more proteins, amino acids, and carbohydrates directly into muscles. Vanadyl sulfate is an awesome, popular supplement that seems to work for building better muscles; nevertheless, the scientific jury is still deliberating.

[ Top 5 Sellers ]
1. Angel Sports Nutrition Extreme Drive Power Formula
4. Performance Research Vertex
5. Dymatize NOV

3. Who needs it and what are some symptoms of deficiency?

Bodybuilders find vanadyl sulfate especially effective because of the fullness it gives their muscles. Weight lifters and bodybuilders take vanadyl to increase their results while working out and because they experience greater pumps and vascularity. Symptoms of deficiency are not associated with vanadyl sulfate.

4. How much should be taken? Are there any side effects?

The recommended dosage is between 30 and 50 mg per day with meals in divided doses. Supplementing with vanadyl sulfate is safe and effective when taken in the recommended amounts. As with most trace minerals, over supplementing may be toxic, so don't take too much!

Republished from Clayton South's Health Facts.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/van.html

NO HYPE
11-24-2007, 03:29 PM
Ronald Roth, MD -

In practice, vanadium rarely becomes as deficient as molybdenum. In fact, it is very uncommon that vanadium would require supplementation at all (ankylosing spondylitis being a rare exception), because of the chemical interactions it is part of, and where molybdenum and chromium levels would both have to be much higher than vanadium.

In animal studies, vanadium has been found to function similarly to insulin by helping to maintain blood glucose levels the same as in the control group, despite lower serum insulin, while at the same time making cell membrane insulin receptors more sensitive to insulin.

In human studies, daily insulin requirements in Type I diabetics decreased by as much as 14%, and in Type II diabetics, there was an increase in insulin sensitivity observed following vanadium treatments using either vanadyl sulphate or sodium metavanadate.

So why don't doctors tell their patients to supplement vanadium in order to reduce insulin requirements? Well, perhaps some studies just don't compare to clinical applications in the real world.My own patient feedback has not been favorable to vanadium supplementation so far for diabetes. Instead of reducing insulin requirements, blood sugar had gone up following vanadium supplementation!

Both, vanadium and molybdenum have anticarcinogenic (anti-cancer) properties in regard to breast cancer (V+Mo) in animal models, and esophageal cancer and stomach cancer (Mo) in humans, which may be due to the copper-inhibiting effect of molybdenum, or possibly by Mo protecting the body from nitrosamine formation as a result of consuming foods (meats or vegetables) high in nitrates or nitrites.

According to some sources, supplementing vanadium has the potential to improve athletic performance because of the anabolic effect of vanadyl sulfate being similar to insulin (supposedly resulting in higher liver and muscle glycogen stores), however the validity of that claim is not universally accepted.

For individuals suffering from bipolar / manic-depressive illness, there is evidence of possible adverse effects from increased vanadium intake due to its causative or aggravating impact on reduced sodium pump activity.

Short of minimal amounts present in some multi-mineral formulations, the effects of supplementing higher amounts of vanadium (as vanadyl sulphate) on a regular basis - when not indicated - can have detrimental side effects that may include anything from various aches and pains and flu-like symptoms (partly as a result of inhibiting chromium), to eventually vanadium causing all kinds of bizarre, chemical imbalances. Supplementing higher amounts of vanadium can also cause a very noticeable green discoloration of the tongue.

Symptoms and/or Risk Factors: Arthritis, aching bones, jaw, teeth, tonsils, ears, weakened immune system, chronic colds, gastrointestinal problems, trabecular bone loss

Vanadium Synergists: Selenium (see text above), zinc, fluoride,

Vanadium Sources: Vegetable oils, fats, olives, black pepper, seafood

http://www.acu-cell.com/vmo.html

Dr. Roth graduated from the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center in 1982 and then successfully completed the Affiliated Residency in Emergency Medicine at the University of Pittsburgh in 1985. He currently serves as an attending physician at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, Emergency Department. In addition, he serves as the Associate Medical Director of Pittsburgh EMS and is active with direct and indirect Medical control issues with Pittsburgh EMS. Dr. Roth serves as the Medical Director of the Pittsburgh Emergency Operation Center (911 Center), and also as Medical Director of the Pittsburgh Bureau of Fire First Responder program, as well as Medical Director for the Pittsburgh Marathon. Dr Roth served as the Co-Medical Director for the NHTSA EMT-P and EMT-I Revision Project and serves as Medical Director for Paramedic training at the Center for Emergency Medicine for Western Pennsylvania. Dr. Roth is also an attending physician in Hyperbaric Medicine at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center.

CognitiveNutrition
11-24-2007, 03:34 PM
Vanadium is a mineral that can be found listed on a periodic table of the elements. Vanadium is also available as a supplement in the form of vanadyl sulfate.

Vanadyl sulfate is a form of the trace element vanadium, which is important for normal cell function and development. Vanadyl sulfate may help maintain blood sugar levels already in the normal range.

Dosage: As with many supplements, particularly certain minerals, it is a good idea to take a day or two off each week, and a week off every month or two. Not enough long term research in humans is available with vanadium sulfate to determine the ideal dosage and frequency of use, nor the long term vanadyl sulfate side effects.

Combination of vanadyl sulfate and taurine
Vanadyl sulfate, taurine, and combined vanadyl sulfate and taurine treatments in diabetic rats: effects on the oxidative and antioxidative systems.
Arch Med Res. 2007 Apr;38(3):276-83. Department of Biology, Science and Literature Faculty, Uludag University, Bursa, Turkey.
Vanadyl sulfate and taurine are two promising agents in the treatment of diabetes related to their antihyperglycemic, antihyperlipidemic, and hyperinsulinemic effects. The findings of the present study suggest that Vanadyl sulfate and taurine exert beneficial effects on the blood glucose and lipid levels in STZ-NA diabetic rats. However, Vanadyl sulfate might exert prooxidative or antioxidative effects in various components of the body and taurine and Vanadyl sulfate combination might be an alternative for sole Vanadyl sulfate administration.

Metabolic effects of vanadyl sulfate in humans with non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus: in vivo and in vitro studies.
Metabolism. 2000 Mar;49(3):400-10. Goldfine AB, Patti ME, Zuberi L, Goldstein BJ, LeBlanc R, Landaker EJ, Jiang ZY, Willsky GR, Kahn CR. Joslin Diabetes Center, Department of Medicine, Brigham and Women's Hospital and Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA, USA.

Effect of vanadium(IV) compounds in the treatment of diabetes: in vivo and in vitro studies with vanadyl sulfate and bis(maltolato)oxovandium(IV).
Journal Inorganic Biochemistry. 2001 May;85(1):33-42. Willsky GR, Goldfine AB, Kostyniak PJ, McNeill JH,
Toxicology Research Center, SUNY at Buffalo School of Medicine and Biomedical Sciences, Buffalo, NY

CognitiveNutrition
11-24-2007, 03:36 PM
Ray Sahelian, M.D., obtained a Bachelors of Science degree in nutrition from Drexel University and completed his doctoral training at Thomas Jefferson Medical School, both in Philadelphia. He is certified by the American Board of Family Medicine.

A popular and respected physician and medical writer, Dr. Sahelian is internationally recognized as a moderate voice in the evaluation of natural supplements. In his books, articles, and website, he discusses both the benefits and risks of these supplements. He thoroughly evaluates both the published research and hands on actual patient feedback. He is often asked by medical doctors, scientists, researchers, and academics regarding his thoughts on nutritional research projects. For instance, in September of 2007, he was asked by the Australian National Health and Medical Research Council, to be an External Assessor for the Complementary and Alternative Medicine grant scheme.

What makes Dr. Sahelian different than almost all other doctors who write about supplements (based only on published research) is that he actually tests on himself various herbs and nutrients in varying dosages to determine what kind of effect they have. It is through this experimental and experiential method that has provided him with significant insights into herbs and supplements that few other medical doctors have discovered. In addition, Dr. Sahelian, over his many years of medical and nutritional practice, has had personal feedback from thousands of his patients who were prescribed supplements, along with tens of thousands of supplement users who have emailed him writing about their experiences, both positive and negative. There's hardly anyone else on this planet who has gathered this type of neutraceutical information from so many varied sources.

Dr. Sahelian has been seen on television programs including NBC Today, NBC Nightly News, CBS This Morning, Dateline NBC, and CNN, quoted by countless major magazines such as Newsweek, Modern Maturity, Health, and newspapers including USA Today, Los Angeles Times, Washington Post, and Le Monde (France). Millions of radio listeners nationwide hear him discuss the latest research on health. Many of his books have been translated into several languages, including Japanese, Korean, Italian, German, Russian, and Chinese. He was featured in the September, 2007 issue of Vitamin Retailer magazine.

Dr. Sahelian is in private practice in Los Angeles, CA.

CognitiveNutrition
11-24-2007, 03:37 PM
Toxicity studies on one-year treatment of non-diabetic and treptozotocin-diabetic rats with vanadyl sulphate.

Pharmacol Toxicol (DENMARK) Nov 1994, 75 (5) p265-73

Streptozotocin-diabetic and non-diabetic rats were given vanadyl sulphate in drinking water at concentrations of 0.5-1.5 mg/ml for one year. It was found that vanadyl treatment did not produce persistent changes in plasma aspartate aminotransferase, alanine aminotransferase, and urea, specific morphological abnormalities in the brain, thymus, heart, lung, liver, spleen, pancreas, kidney, adrenal, or testis, or abnormal organ weight/body weight ratio for these organs in either non-diabetic or diabetic animals. Treatment significantly reduced the incidence of the occurrence of urinary stones in non-diabetic rats. In diabetic animals vanadyl treatment significantly reduced the mortality rate and prevented the elevation of plasma levels of alanine aminotransferase and urea, the increases in organ size, and the occurrence of megacolon but did not affect the development of renal and testicular tumours. Plasma and tissue concentrations of vanadium were determined and found to have the following order of distribution: bone > kidney > testis > liver > pancreas > plasma > brain. Vanadium was retained in these organs at 16 weeks following vanadyl withdrawal while the plasma levels were beneath detection limits. It is concluded that vanadyl sulphate at antidiabetic doses is not significantly toxic to rats following a one-year administration in drinking water, but vanadium may be retained in various organs for months after cessation of treatment.

CognitiveNutrition
11-24-2007, 03:41 PM

While there is no RDA for vanadium, which in most cases is used to maintain good health, an amount much lower than 100 mg is sufficient. Only Trace Minerals contains 7.5 mg of vanadium in the form of vanadyl sulfate. In fact, some researchers consider doses between 23 mg to 100 mg to be excessive and possibly toxic, unless in the treatment of particular disease states, like diabetes, and under a doctor's supervision.

NO HYPE
11-24-2007, 03:41 PM
In humans, the threshold level for vanadium toxicity is near 10 (to 20)mg/day. Schroeder et al. (109) administered 4.5 and 9 mg V/day for 6 to 16 months without apparent detrimental effects; Curran et al. (33) supplemented 13.5 mg V/day for 6 weeks, with no sign of intolerance toxicity being found. On the other hand, Somerville and Davies (116) gave 13.5 mg V/day for 5 months. 40% of the patients exhibited gastrointestinal disturbances and 40% exhibited green tongues. After intakes of 4.5 to 18 mg V/day over 6 to 10 weeks, the patients developed green tongues, cramps and diarrhoea (37, 19).

In animals and humans, vanadium generally causes pulmonary effects of acute vanadium pentoxide inhalation (73, 126), haematological changes following vanadium exposure (72), and a lowered cysteine content in hair and nails (122). The coenzyme A content of the organs is decreased after feeding high doses of vanadium. One of the compounds involved in the synthesis of coenzyme A is thioethanolamine, which is derived from cysteine by decarboxylation. Therefore, a decrease in cystine caused by vanadium was presumably the reason for reduced amounts of coenzyme A. Coenzyme A is involved in the synthesis of cholesterol, and therefore may affect the occurrence of atherosclerosis.

http://www.ranf.com/pdf/anales/2004/0406.pdf

NO HYPE
11-24-2007, 05:11 PM
"It is retained in highest amounts in the kidney, liver, testes, bone, and spleen."

"Most of the excessive retained (exogenous) vanadium is deposited in bone."

"Na K-ATPases, Mg-ATPase and myosin-ATPase, which are inhibited by vanadium. Vanadate's close resemblance to phosphate enables it to inhibit many of the enzymes involved in phosphate metabolism and in phosphorylation and dephosphorylation." (52)

8. Toxicity

Vanadium is relatively toxic. The threshold for toxicity apparently is near 10-20 mg/day or 10-20-ug/g of diet in both animals and humans. (48) A variety of signs of vanadium toxicity exist because they vary with species and dosage. Consistently observed toxic effects include depressed growth, elevated organ vanadium, diarrhea, and cramps were were observed in humans given 13.5 mg for 2 months followed by 22.5 mg for 5 months. In another study, signs of toxicity were observed on intakes of 4.5-18 mg vanadium/day in the form of vanadyl sulfate.(55)

Recent studies in experimental animals suggest that several toxic effects may occur.

* Significant reduction in general activity and learning in rats. (62)

* Vanadate (V+5) and Vanadyl (V+4) may be reproductive and developmental toxins in mammals. (49)

* Hepatoxicity and nephrotoxicity have also been observed. Vanadium, like some other metals, tends to accumulate in the kidney, often leading to nephrotoxicity. The effects observed in rats include hypokalemic distal renal tubular acidosis, enhanced renal peroxidation, increased urinary excretion of solutes and water, inhibition of Na+ -K+ -ATPase and organic ion accumulation, natriuresis, diuresis, and vasoconstriction.

2007 CRC Press - Handbook of Nutrition in the Aged, Third Edition. Ronald R. Watson

NO HYPE
11-24-2007, 05:40 PM
First statement =

I'd like to see some justification for it being included in our supplements in the first place.

Study 1: Oral vanadyl sulfate improves insulin sensitivity in NIDDM but not in obese nondiabetic subjects.

Study 2 Oral vanadyl sulfate improves hepatic and peripheral insulin sensitivity in patients with non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus.

Second statement = How does that justify it's inclusion in our supplements?

Second reply = Who said it does?

NO HYPE
11-24-2007, 08:21 PM
Direct from BB

Insulin Mimicking Mineral

1. What is it and where does it come from?

Vanadyl sulfate, one of the most popular bodybuilding supplements, is derived from trace mineral vanadium. Bodybuilding.com carries the highest quality vanadyl sulfate available!

2. What does it do and what scientific studies give evidence to support this?

Athletes have long used vanadyl sulfate to increase their performance. It is believed to play a role in helping to regulate the body's healthy blood sugar levels, similar to insulin. Studies show that vanadyl sulfate mainly helps the muscle cells uptake glucose (instead of fat cells (adipocytes) uptaking glucose). Basically, by mimicking the actions of insulin, vanadyl sulfate forces more proteins, amino acids, and carbohydrates directly into muscles. Vanadyl sulfate is an awesome, popular supplement that seems to work for building better muscles; nevertheless, the scientific jury is still deliberating.

[ Top 5 Sellers ]
1. Angel Sports Nutrition Extreme Drive Power Formula
4. Performance Research Vertex
5. Dymatize NOV

3. Who needs it and what are some symptoms of deficiency?

Bodybuilders find vanadyl sulfate especially effective because of the fullness it gives their muscles. Weight lifters and bodybuilders take vanadyl to increase their results while working out and because they experience greater pumps and vascularity. Symptoms of deficiency are not associated with vanadyl sulfate.

4. How much should be taken? Are there any side effects?

The recommended dosage is between 30 and 50 mg per day with meals in divided doses. Supplementing with vanadyl sulfate is safe and effective when taken in the recommended amounts. As with most trace minerals, over supplementing may be toxic, so don't take too much!

Republished from Clayton South's Health Facts.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/van.html

I wonder why I did not notice any of the following IMPORTANT FACTS mentioned in that article?

I suppose it's possible, that the toxicity of vanadium associated with low dosages in humans, was a fact that was overlooked.... but it will not be overlooked any longer.

"High doses of vanadium (anything over 15 mg/day) may cause liver and/or kidney damage."

"No more than 1.8 mg/day should be used in people. Some manufacturers promote high dosages (15 to 100 mg) of vanadyl sulfate per day, but studies do not support such dosages, and they may be toxic."

Warning! Causes digestive and respiratory tract irritation. May cause liver and kidney damage.

Target Organs: Kidneys, liver, respiratory system, eyes, skin.

Ingestion: May cause severe gastrointestinal tract irritation with nausea, vomiting and possible burns. May cause liver and kidney damage. May cause central nervous system effects and/or neurological effects. May cause greenish-black tongue discoloration due to deposition of vanadium salts. Ingestion of large amounts may cause an increase in blood pressure.

Eye: May cause eye irritation and possible damage.

Skin: Contact with skin causes irritation and possible burns, especially if the skin is wet or moist. Contact with the skin may cause skin lesions which are characterized by cracking of the skin and the development of slow-healing ulcers.

"Somerville and Davies (116) gave 13.5 mg V/day for 5 months. 40% of the patients exhibited gastrointestinal disturbances and 40% exhibited green tongues. After intakes of 4.5 to 18 mg V/day over 6 to 10 weeks, the patients developed green tongues, cramps and diarrhea" (37, 19).

"Consistently observed toxic effects include depressed growth, elevated organ vanadium, diarrhea, and cramps were were observed in humans given 13.5 mg for 2 months followed by 22.5 mg for 5 months. In another study, signs of toxicity were observed on intakes of 4.5-18 mg vanadium/day in the form of vanadyl sulfate."(55)

"Hepatoxicity and nephrotoxicity have also been observed. Vanadium, like some other metals, tends to accumulate in the kidney, often leading to nephrotoxicity. The effects observed in rats include hypokalemic distal renal tubular acidosis, enhanced renal peroxidation, increased urinary excretion of solutes and water, inhibition of Na+ -K+ -ATPase and organic ion accumulation, natriuresis, diuresis, and vasoconstriction."

NO HYPE
11-24-2007, 08:27 PM
Most people probably have enough in their diet. I don't see much reason for anyone to take it.

That statement should be printed on the labels of all vanadyl products.... if it did not defeat the entire purpose of selling it?:D

NO HYPE
11-24-2007, 09:18 PM
Ingestion: May cause severe gastrointestinal tract irritation with nausea, vomiting and possible burns. May cause liver and kidney damage. May cause central nervous system effects and/or neurological effects. May cause greenish-black tongue discoloration due to deposition of vanadium salts. Ingestion of large amounts may cause an increase in blood pressure.

May being the key word.

Yeah, I mean.... what are the chances right?

I myself have experienced toxicity off this mineral. I was using ON VS5000, and after following the directions began experiencing flu and depression-like symptoms. One of my friends had his tongue turn blue after 3 months on this crap.

The title is a tad melodramatic.

Is it?

leonidas300
11-24-2007, 10:10 PM
Toxicity studies on one-year treatment of non-diabetic and treptozotocin-diabetic rats with vanadyl sulphate.

It is concluded that vanadyl sulphate at antidiabetic doses is not significantly toxic to rats following a one-year administration in drinking water, but vanadium may be retained in various organs for months after cessation of treatment.

Wow more rat studies. Diabetic rats even. Seriously post a human study regarding toxicity or just stop posting, this is just getting silly.

cxm
11-24-2007, 11:38 PM
I remember some people using vanadyl for teh pump effect, this ingredient was pushed heavily during the Bill Phillips EAS era.

Lok7y who is an extremely bright member, he mentioned the toxicity of vanadyl several times, I miss his insight and posts. :(

It's toxic if you use it at the effective dosage (30-40mg/meal) for very long, but, with that said, if you're using it on an infrequent basis to speed yourself into ketosis or as part of a glycogen-load, it's quite a good supplement.

Protein Tyrosine Phosphatase 1B (PTP1B), which is the pathway vanadyl seems to exploit, is a very important mediator of leptin signaling & insulin memisis.

Originally Posted by 391rippy
do a search, you'll find plenty. the sparknotes of what i've read is that it is effective at high dosages, but it builds up in your body and can be toxic. i would suggest taking r-ALA instead. they basically have the same effect, but the r-ALA is much safer.

Not exactly. Vanadyl augments insulin-dependent glucose disposal. ALA works outside of the insulin cascade. I do agree with you that ALA is much safer, it's just that they don't do nearly the same things.

Vanadyl is a pretty good supplement if used infrequently at high dosages during periods where your carb-intake is really high.

Nothing miraculous, but it definitely makes a difference.

Definitely is toxic however, which is kind of a downer.

Bane
11-25-2007, 01:35 AM
We've been defacing this stuff from the days Big Cat roamed the boards(those were some interesting days!). And yes it's still sold.
Why?
Cause people will buy it, the same way as they'll buy liquid creatine, guggulsterones, homeopathetic HGH, e.t.c. e.t.c. e.t.c.
Truth is very few do their homework these days(and there is no cure for stupidity ofc)

NO HYPE
11-25-2007, 04:33 AM
Toxicity studies on one-year treatment of non-diabetic and treptozotocin-diabetic rats with vanadyl sulphate.

Wow more rat studies. Diabetic rats even. Seriously post a human study regarding toxicity or just stop posting, this is just getting silly.

It's cool.... there are enough rat studies that reveal vanadium's toxicity as well.

Mol Cell Biochem. 2007 Dec;306(1-2):189-200. Epub 2007 Aug 1. Links

Amelioration of vanadium-induced testicular toxicity and adrenocortical hyperactivity by vitamin E acetate in rats.

NO HYPE
11-25-2007, 04:42 AM
Vanadyl sulfate VOSO4, also called vanadium(IV) sulfate oxide hydrate, is used as a relatively controversial dietary supplement, primarily for increasing insulin sensitivity and body-building. Whether it works for the latter purpose has not been proven, and there is some evidence that athletes who take it are merely experiencing a placebo effect.

The toxicity of vanadium depends on its physico-chemical state; particularly on its valence state and solubility. Tetravalent VOSO4 has been reported to be more than 5 times as toxic as trivalent V2O3 (Roschin, 1967). Vanadium compounds are poorly absorbed through the gastrointestinal system. Inhalation exposures to vanadium and vanadium compounds result primarily in adverse effects to the respiratory system (Sax, 1984; ATSDR, 1990; Ress et al., 2003; Worle-Knirsch et al., 2007). Quantitative data are, however, insufficient to derive a subchronic or chronic inhalation reference dose. Other effects have been reported on blood parameters after oral or inhalation exposures (Scibior et al., 2006; Gonzalez-Villalva et al., 2006), on liver (Kobayashi et al., 2006), neurological development in rats (Soaso and Garcia, 2007), and other organs. Vanadium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium)

NO HYPE
11-25-2007, 05:15 AM
Vanadyl sulfate administration protects the streptozotocin-induced oxidative damage to brain tissue in rats.

Diabetes mellitus manifests itself in a wide variety of complications and the symptoms of the disease are multifactorial. The present study was carried out to investigate the effects of vanadyl sulfate on biochemical parameters, enzyme activities and brain lipid peroxidation, glutathione and nonenzymatic glycosylation of normal- and streptozotocin-diabetic rats. Streptozotocin (STZ) was administered as a single dose (65 mg/kg) to induce diabetes. A dose of 100 mg/kg vanadyl sulfate was orally administered daily to STZ-diabetic and normal rats, separately until the end of the experiment, at day 60. In STZ-diabetic group, blood glucose, serum sialic and uric acid levels, serum catalase (CAT) and lactate dehydrogenase (LDH) activities, brain lipid peroxidation (LPO) and nonenzymatic glycosylation (NEG) increased, while brain glutathione (GSH) level and body weight decreased. In the diabetic group given vanadyl sulfate, blood glucose, serum sialic and uric acid levels, serum CAT and LDH activities and brain LPO and NEG levels decreased, but brain GSH and body weight increased. The present study showed that vanadyl sulfate exerted antioxidant effects and consequently may prevent brain damage caused by streptozotocin-induced diabetes.

there are enough rat studies that reveal vanadium's toxicity as well.

Reproductive Toxicity of Vanadyl Sulphate in Male Rats

The reproductive functions were evaluated by epididymal sperm counts, motility, fertility rate, reproductive organ weights, biochemistry and histological examination of testes in vanadyl sulphate treated adult male Wistar rats. Oral administration of vanadyl sulphate (100mg/kg b.wt./day) for 60 days caused a decrease (p < 0.05) in the weights of testes and accessory reproductive organs. Cauda epididymal sperm analysis exhibited a significant decline in the number (p < 0.01) and motility (p < 0.001). Atrophy of seminiferous tubules was observed in histopathological examination. The diameter of seminiferous tubules and Leydig cells nuclei were reduced. Biochemical analysis of marker parameters indicated alteration in biochemical milieu of the genital organs. The mating tests with untreated females revealed a decrease in pregnancy rate and mean number of the pups delivered. As such present investigation indicate an adverse effect of vanadyl sulphate on male reproductive functions. (Author abst.)

NO HYPE
11-25-2007, 05:39 AM
Vanadium treatment of diabetic Sprague-Dawley rats results in tissue vanadium accumulation and pro-oxidant effects.

The effect of sodium metavanadate (NaVO3) consumption on trace element metabolism, components of the antioxidant defense system and lipid oxidative damage were studied in control (CON) and streptozotocin-induced diabetic (DIAB) rats. Ten days after injection, CON and DIAB rats received either 0 mM NaVO3/80 mM NaCl (0 group) or 1.2 mM NaVO3/80 mM NaCl (1.2V group) in their drinking water. DIAB groups had higher food and fluid intakes than the CON groups; vanadium (V) groups had lower food and fluid intakes than the saline groups. Vanadium therapy lowered plasma glucose concentrations of DIAB rats. The following parameters were similar among the groups: plasma Zn, Cu and Fe concentrations, plasma ceruloplasmin activity, liver Zn, Cu, Mn and Fe concentrations, kidney Mn and Fe concentrations, liver non-Se-dependent glutathione peroxidase (GSH-Px), glutathione reductase (GSH-Red) and Mn-SOD activities, liver reduced glutathione (GSH) and oxidized glutathione (GSSG) concentrations and kidney non-Se-dependent GSH-Px activity. Kidney Zn and Cu concentrations were higher in DIAB rats than in CON rats. The CON-1.2V and DIAB-1.2V groups had V accumulation in the liver and kidney. Liver CuZn-SOD and Se-dependent GSH-Px and kidney CuZn-SOD and GSH-Red activities were lower in DIAB rats compared to CON rats; kidney Mn-SOD and kidney Se-dependent GSH-Px activities were higher in DIAB rats than CON rats. Vanadium treatment did not cause significant alterations in the antioxidant defense system; however, tissue vanadium concentrations were positively correlated to TBARS production. These results show that diabetes caused significant alterations in the antioxidant defense system and that V therapy was associated with a marked deterioration in health of both control and diabetic rats.

http://grande.nal.usda.gov/ibids/index.php?mode2=detail&origin=ibids_references&therow=542202

NO HYPE
11-25-2007, 06:12 AM
Effects of Vanadium upon Liver Coenzyme A in Rats

THE addition of vanadium to liver sections of normal animals can prevent the synthesis of cholesterol from both mevalonic acid and acetate-1. Diets containing vanadyl sulphate do not, however, alter the cholesterol-levels in the serum or liver after being administered for six weeks to rabbits fed on high-cholesterol diets, though they considerably reduce the cholesterol concentration in the aorta and appreciably lower the capacity of the liver to synthesize cholesterol-1,2.

1. J Biol Chem. 1954 Oct;210(2):765-70. Links
Effect of certain transition group elements on hepatic synthesis of cholesterol in the rat.CURRAN GL.

2. Proc Soc Exp Biol Med. 1956 Jul;92(3):582-7.Links
Effect of ingested vanadium on cholesterol and phospholipid metabolism in the rabbit.MOUNTAIN JT, STOCKELL FR Jr, STOKINGER HE.

Intracellular Thioctic Acid and Coenzyme A following Vanadium Treatment

IT was suggested in a previous communication1 that the fall in coenzyme A liver concentrations in animals treated with vanadium might be due, at least partially, to a reduction in the number of -SH groups available. This hypothesis was based on the following facts: (1) The toxic effects of vanadium may, to a great extent, be attributed to modifications in reactions connected with sulphur compounds, especially those of the thiolic type-2. (2) The lack of -SH groups, and particularly of sulphurated amino-acids, lowers the coenzyme A content in the liver-3; in this case, a fall in thioctic acid, the connexion of which with coenzyme A is well-known, also occurs in the tissues-4. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v184/n4699/abs/1841641a0.html

2. Studies in vanadium toxicology. Reduction in the cystine content of rat hair
Archives of Industrial Hygiene and Occupational Medicine (1953), 8, 406-11 CODEN: AIHOAX; ISSN: 0376-1096.

3. J Nutr. 1955 Jul 11;56(3):431-5.
A biochemical basis for the interrelationship of pantothenic acid and methionine.DINNING JS, NEATROUR R, DAY PL.

4. Proc Soc Exp Biol Med. 1952 Jan;79(1):34-7.
Hepatic fibrosis produced by chronic ethionine feeding.KOCH WESER D, POPPER H.

NO HYPE
11-25-2007, 06:25 AM
Experientia. 1996 Aug 15;52(8):778-85.

Induction of vanadium accumulation and nuclear sequestration causing cell suicide in human Chang liver cells.

NO HYPE
11-25-2007, 06:33 AM
Biol Trace Elem Res. 2002 Aug;88(2):97-112.

Vanadium and tungsten derivatives as antidiabetic agents: a review of their toxic effects.

Tungstate is an oxyanion that has biological similarities to vanadate. In recent years, a number of studies have shown the antidiabetic effects of oral tungstate in animal models of diabetes. However, because of the tissue accumulation and potential toxicity derived from chronic administration of vanadium and tungsten compounds, the pharmacological use of vanadate or tungstate in the treatment of diabetes is not necessarily exempt from concern. In the context of a potential use in the treatment of human diabetes mellitus, the most relevant toxic effects of vanadium derivatives are reviewed and compared with those reported for tungsten. Hematological and biochemical alterations, loss of body weight, nephrotoxicity, immunotoxicity, reproductive and developmental toxicity, and behavioral toxicity have been reported to occur following exposure to vanadium compounds. Moreover, vanadium also has a mitogenic activity affecting the distribution of chromosomes during mitosis and inducing aneuploidy-related end points. In contrast to vanadate, studies about the toxic effects of tungstate are very scant. Early investigations in cats, rabbits, dogs, mice, and rats showed that tungstate was less toxic than vanadate when given intravenously. Although in vitro investigations showed a direct effect of tungstate on the embryo and fetus of mice at concentrations similar to those causing effects in vivo, information on the potential cellular toxicity of tungstate is particularly scarce. Taking into account the recent interest of tungstate as a new potential oral antidiabetic agent, an exhaustive evaluation of its toxicity in mammals is clearly necessary.

DRP7
11-25-2007, 06:43 AM
Human studies showing no toxic effects and animal studies showing neuroprotective effects are solid data. I think this is abit above your understanding.

you should be cautious when interpreting study results. first of all, they applied 100 mg/kg of vanadium to the rodents in this study: 100 mg/kg! that would be appr. 7.000 -10.000 mg in an average human individual. per day!
secondly, they have not examined the neuronal viability / functionality, so we cannot really say whether the brains of the animanls that received vanadium were still working after the treatment or not.

one should be aware of the fact that they produced diabetes animals: without any glucose control! an unsleahed, full-blown diabetes is a source of extreme oxidative damage (+ AGE - advanced glycation endproducts). they (ab)used ultra-high doses of vanadium in order to replace insulin action in the body. it is absolutely no surprise that you will ameliorate a few of the consequences of diabetes when you apply a treatment that partially displays similar action as insulin.

however, this finding has ZERO merit in humans because of the following reasons:

1. in humans there are other, much better (= more effective, less toxic) options than high-dose vanadium for the treatment of diabetes
2. you would need ultra-toxic doses of vanadium in order to achieve such effects
3. this thread does not even deal with diabetic individuals but with healthy people who don't have unleashed blood glucose levels and extreme oxidative stress caused by uncontrolled diabetes.

let me illustrate what merit this study actually has:
if I would do a study by throwing an atomic bomb onto some viruses that cause the common cold, and I would find that all viruses got killed: what merit would an atomic bomb have for the treatment of the common cold? do you really believe that you would find a little "pocket-bomb" the next day in your local pharmacy or drug store: "the new eradication therapy for viruses"?

no way!

DRP7
11-25-2007, 07:02 AM
... I think this is abit above your understanding.

well, you have demonstrated that you are surely the right person to make such judgements.

NO HYPE
11-25-2007, 07:09 AM
let me illustrate what merit this study actually has:

if I would do a study by throwing an atomic bomb onto some viruses that cause the common cold, and I would find that all viruses got killed: what merit would an atomic bomb have for the treatment of the common cold? do you really believe that you would find a little "pocket-bomb" the next day in your local pharmacy or drug store: "the new eradication therapy for viruses"?

There would likely be long lines at the drug store, if there were such a thing.:D

NO HYPE
11-25-2007, 07:14 AM
..

1. in humans there are other, much better (= more effective, less toxic) options than high-dose vanadium for the treatment of diabetes

2. you would need ultra-toxic doses of vanadium in order to achieve such effects

My own patient feedback has not been favorable to vanadium supplementation so far for diabetes. Instead of reducing insulin requirements, blood sugar had gone up following vanadium supplementation!

NO HYPE
11-25-2007, 09:34 AM
doi:10.1016/j.metabol.2005.08.021

Short-term bioaccumulation of vanadium when ingested with a tea decoction in streptozotocin-induced diabetic rats

deserusan
11-25-2007, 09:49 AM

There is someone on MD pushing high dose chromium and vanadyl on MD and people actually feel this guy is a genius. I get hammered because I offer safe and effective GDA's like KR-ALA, banaba, etc.

NO HYPE
11-25-2007, 09:51 AM
Vanadium Distribution in Rats and DNA Cleavage by Vanadyl Complex: Implication for Vanadium Toxicity and Biological Effects

Vanadium ion is toxic to animals. However, vanadium is also an agent used for chemoprotection against cancers in animals. To understand both the toxic and beneficial effects we studied vanadium distribution in rats. Accumulation of vanadium in the liver nuclei of rats given low doses of compounds in the +4 or +5 oxidation state was greater than in the liver nuclei of rats given high doses of vanadium compounds or the vanadate (+5 oxidation state) compound. Vanadium was incorporated exclusively in the vanadyl (+4 oxidation state) form. We also investigated the reactions of vanadyl ion and found that incubation of DNA with vanadyl ion and hydrogen peroxide $({\rm H}_{2}{\rm O}_{2})$ led to intense DNA cleavage. ESR spin trapping demonstrated that hydroxyl radicals are generated during the reactions of vanadyl ion and ${\rm H}_{2}{\rm O}_{2}$. Thus, we propose that the mechanism for vanadium-dependent toxicity and antineoplastic action is due to DNA cleavage by hydroxyl radicals generated in living systems.

NO HYPE
11-25-2007, 09:53 AM

There is someone on MD pushing high dose chromium and vanadyl on MD and people actually feel this guy is a genius. I get hammered because I offer safe and effective GDA's like KR-ALA, banaba, etc.

You just like getting hammered.:D

NO HYPE
11-25-2007, 10:10 AM
There is someone on MD pushing high dose chromium and vanadyl on MD and people actually feel this guy is a genius.

I found it odd that he even bothered to mention the toxicity of picolinate/polynicotinate.... after ingesting 40 mg of vanadyl a day.

Dr.Dave1
11-25-2007, 10:34 AM
interesting thread NO HYPE . . . I can honestly say I was unaware of the potential risks of vanadyl sulfate until I started to read the info you supplied. I have not used it yet and I definitely will stay away from it now

leonidas300
11-25-2007, 10:41 AM
interesting thread NO HYPE . . . I can honestly say I was unaware of the potential risks of vanadyl sulfate until I started to read the info you supplied. I have not used it yet and I definitely will stay away from it now

Well if you are going to use it, make sure you only give it to obese diabetic rats.

NO HYPE
11-25-2007, 10:58 AM
interesting thread NO HYPE . . . I can honestly say I was unaware of the potential risks of vanadyl sulfate until I started to read the info you supplied. I have not used it yet and I definitely will stay away from it now

I never knew it was even an option on bb.com.

NO HYPE
11-25-2007, 11:24 AM
Human studies show it can be safely used and effective for certain uses.

Key word being "certain".:D

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41462000/jpg/_41462600_ap_obesity416.jpg

NO HYPE
11-25-2007, 11:26 AM
Well if you are going to use it, make sure you only give it to obese diabetic rats.

DRP7
11-25-2007, 11:28 AM
Key word being "certain".:D

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41462000/jpg/_41462600_ap_obesity416.jpg

I doubt that vanadyl could help to get rid of adipose tissue. on contrary, if it shares some similarities to insulin than it will rather make people even more fat.

11-25-2007, 11:33 AM
I know alot of people hate on VS, and I don't have any scientific studies or anything to back it but I like VS.
30mg preworkout with a high carb meal, don't stay on it longer then 30days without a good break.

-my experience

NO HYPE
11-25-2007, 11:39 AM
I know alot of people hate on VS, and I don't have any scientific studies or anything to back it but I like VS.
30mg preworkout with a high carb meal, don't stay on it longer then 30days without a good break.

-my experience

What does it do for you.... honestly?

11-25-2007, 11:41 AM
What does it do for you.... honestly?

Great Pumps, Fuller Muscle Bellies, Increased Vascularity

NO HYPE
11-25-2007, 11:45 AM
Great Pumps, Fuller Muscle Bellies, Increased Vascularity

Those are interesting results despite the study....

I really find it interesting that there are about six NO products on bb.com that contain vanadyl sulfate.... too bad it has been shown to induce pulmonary vasoconstriction, as a result of NO inhibition.

Environ Health Perspect. 2004 Feb;112(2):201-6.

Vanadyl sulfate inhibits NO production via threonine phosphorylation of eNOS.

Exposure to excessive vanadium occurs in some occupations and with consumption of some dietary regimens for weight reduction and body building. Because vanadium is vasoactive, individuals exposed to excessive vanadium may develop adverse vascular effects. We have previously shown that vanadyl sulfate causes acute pulmonary vasoconstriction, which could be attributed in part to inhibition of nitric oxide production. In the present study we investigated whether NO inhibition was related to phosphorylation of endothelial nitric oxide synthase (eNOS). VOSO4 produced dose-dependent constriction of pulmonary arteries in isolated perfused lungs and pulmonary arterial rings and a right shift of the acetylcholine-dependent vasorelaxation curve. VOSO4 inhibited constitutive as well as A23187-stimulated NO production. Constitutive NO inhibition was accompanied by increased Thr495 (threonine at codon 495) phosphorylation of eNOS, which would inhibit eNOS activity. Thr495 phosphorylation of eNOS and inhibition of NO were partially reversed by pretreatment with calphostin C, a protein kinase C (PKC) inhibitor. There were no changes in Ser1177 (serine at codon 1177) or tyrosine phosphorylation of eNOS. These results indicate that VOSO4 induced acute pulmonary vasoconstriction that was mediated in part by the inhibition of endothelial NO production via PKC-dependent phosphorylation of Thr495 of eNOS. Exposure to excessive vanadium may contribute to pulmonary vascular diseases.

cxm
11-25-2007, 11:49 AM
Great Pumps, Fuller Muscle Bellies, Increased Vascularity

There are so many other ingredients that can produce that effect, without the issue of toxicity.
1. l-Arginine ethyl ester
2. Citrulline malate
3. L-Ornithine Ethyl Ester
4. Agmatine Sulfate

Having these alternatives, why VS? Because it's cheaper? not worth the health risks IMO.

11-25-2007, 11:54 AM
There are so many other ingredients that can produce that effect, without the issue of toxicity.
1. l-Arginine ethyl ester
2. Citrulline malate
3. L-Ornithine Ethyl Ester
4. Agmatine Sulfate

Having these alternatives, why VS? Because it's cheaper? not worth the health risks IMO.

Cheaper, more effective, minimal health risks when used appropriately.

Those are interesting results despite the study....

I'll take 1st hand experience over a study any day...............but that's just me.

If you guys don't like VS that's fine, no biggie. But there are alot of long time/respectable members on here that have used it with success.

It seems everyone is quick to jump on the band wagon of the new "hot" supplements but discount long time stables. I mean X-Factor's AA has multiple condemning studies but no one seems to talk about that. Why? Because it comes in a pretty bottle with a attractive label?
Seems odd to me.

cxm
11-25-2007, 12:00 PM
Cheaper, more effective, minimal health risks when used appropriately.

I doubt a combo of the above will be less effective than VS.

Health > $$But there are alot of long time/respectable members on here that have used it with success Please name these respectable members, the majority of the old timers are gone. ElMariachi 11-25-2007, 12:00 PM Most people probably have enough in their diet. I don't see much reason for anyone to take it. I think the theme of this thread fits that exact question. You and No Hype agree on that. If it is not needed, why do so many companies include potentially large doses of it???? I haven't seen any solid studies that suggest a major benefit for the average gymgoer. ElMariachi 11-25-2007, 12:05 PM http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/showthread.php?t=11651 There is someone on MD pushing high dose chromium and vanadyl on MD and people actually feel this guy is a genius. I get hammered because I offer safe and effective GDA's like KR-ALA, banaba, etc. That guy's a nut. There is no need to take that much of a trace mineral. 10mg several times a day, that is crazy. There's all sorts of self-professed "guru's" out there who recommend all sorts of random stuff that seems to work for them but is lacking scientifically. I would be far more comfortable using cinnamon and R-ALA. cgcgraded 11-25-2007, 12:16 PM I doubt a combo of the above will be less effective than VS. Health >$$\$

Don't understand what your saying, grammar is hard to understand?????

Please name these respectable members, the majority of the old timers are gone.

I don't care if they are gone or not lol, they still supported VS. Search through the VS threads. Of the top of my head I know pu12 is a big advocate of it, alot of guys are that PERSONALLY have used it in the appropriate doses/cycling methods.

BTW, alot of these studies being posted are not being conducted in the interest of bodybuilders.
If i can recall many studies say humans only need 50g of protein per day. But again, I guess we pick and chose which ones to listen to based on personal beliefs............

NO HYPE
11-25-2007, 12:43 PM
..

NO HYPE
11-25-2007, 12:46 PM
pu12 is a big advocate of it, alot of guys are that PERSONALLY have used it in the appropriate doses/cycling methods.

That's cool you feel that you get results from vanadyl, but I ask you.... how do you define "appropriate doses/cycling", if there is little to no evidence that establishes an "appropriate" dosage for healthy adults?

I am really interested in hearing any benefits to this stuff (though I doubt there are many).... I'd just rather rely on evidence that is factual vs anecdotal.

CognitiveNutrition
11-25-2007, 05:32 PM
well, you have demonstrated that you are surely the right person to make such judgements.

My company and myself have the knowledge and experience to discussion most aspects of health with excellent judgement.

NO HYPE
11-25-2007, 09:22 PM
If it is not needed, why do so many companies include potentially large doses of it???? I haven't seen any solid studies that suggest a major benefit for the average gymgoer.

Bump.

G.W. Hayduke
11-25-2007, 09:24 PM
Bump.
'Cause sometimes you can FEEL that **** working, son!

Or maybe there's a more nefarious plan in the works...

GeneGnomeX
11-25-2007, 09:32 PM
I'll take 1st hand experience over a study any day...............but that's just me.

Then click here (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/forumdisplay.php?f=1) and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

GeneGnomeX
11-25-2007, 09:38 PM
I don't care if they are gone or not lol, they still supported VS. Search through the VS threads. Of the top of my head I know pu12 is a big advocate of it, alot of guys are that PERSONALLY have used it in the appropriate doses/cycling methods.

Lesson: NEVER take the word of anyone without researching yourself. It doesn't matter how much of a "guru" they are or how well known. Many "gurus" give horrible/dangerous advice (see des' example).

BTW, alot of these studies being posted are not being conducted in the interest of bodybuilders.

So please explain why this wouldn't be toxic to bodybuilders. Your naive logic doesn't work here.

If i can recall many studies say humans only need 50g of protein per day. But again, I guess we pick and chose which ones to listen to based on personal beliefs............

Again, illogical argument. If you can't see the difference between protein studies and this, you shouldn't be posting here.

G.W. Hayduke
11-25-2007, 09:50 PM
It just occurred to me that if you are one of the people who gets pumped up from vanadium, then you may want to reconsider your diet and exercise habits. You may be getting pumped because you are pre-diabetic.

ram_6000000
11-26-2007, 01:41 AM
I think this basically just comes down to common sense. There are other alternatives that offer equal, if not better results, and have a better safety profile. I myself know the side-effects of this supplement are real. The reason I wanted to bring to light this specific ingredient is because of how widely available it is, is toxic even in lower dosages, and is often included in many of the sports supplements we take. The kid behind me in line may not even know he's taking it, all he sees is fancy packaging. If it is no longer included in these formulas, or there is at least a warning on the label, that would not be so bad. Thats my feelings anyway. Thanks to everyone who has replied.

ElMariachi
11-26-2007, 01:49 AM
Lesson: NEVER take the word of anyone without researching yourself. It doesn't matter how much of a "guru" they are or how well known. Many "gurus" give horrible/dangerous advice (see des' example).

So please explain why this wouldn't be toxic to bodybuilders. Your naive logic doesn't work here.

Again, illogical argument. If you can't see the difference between protein studies and this, you shouldn't be posting here.

There was a guy on here, awhile back, recommending heavy doses of selenium to combat mercury toxicity from eating too much tuna. I felt like slapping myself when people were getting all excited about taking 400mcg of selenium, 3x p/day.

Bottom line, people will frequently ignore a vast body of science on supplements in favor of the anecdotal experience of a totally unknown stranger.

DRP7
11-26-2007, 06:44 AM
from a perspective of a bodybuilder who wants to build muscle mass, vanadyl appears to be a bad choice: while it may enhance cellular glucose uptake (this is why people report to feel more "muscular fullness" due to vanadyl supplementation), vanadyl may inhibit muscular amino acid uptake. and this is the last thing a bodybuilder wants: a decreased amino acid uptake! by that interference with muscular muscular amino acid uptake vanadyl could hamper any real lean muscle gains (beyond the "fullness" that is caused by increased intracellular glycogen).

Am J Physiol. 1997 Jan;272(1 Pt 1):C156-62.
Insulin-mimetic agents vanadate and pervanadate stimulate glucose but inhibit amino acid uptake.

Tsiani E, Abdullah N, Fantus IG.
Department of Medicine, Mount Sinai Hospital, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

The protein tyrosine phosphatase (PTP) inhibitors vanadate and pervanadate (pV) exert insulin-like biologic effects. In cultured differentiated rat L6 skeletal muscle cells, vanadate and pV stimulated 2-deoxy-D-[3H]glucose uptake in a dose- and time-dependent manner. There was no increase in maximum stimulation by additional insulin. In contrast, whereas insulin stimulated [14C]methylaminoisobutyric acid (MeAIB) uptake, basal uptake was inhibited by vanadate and pV. Insulin-stimulated MeAIB uptake was also inhibited in a dose-dependent manner and completely abolished by 5 mM vanadate or 0.1 mM pV. The inhibitory effect on basal MeAIB uptake was associated with a decrease in transporter affinity and a small decrease in maximum transport capacity, whereas the insulin-stimulated increase in maximum transport capacity was completely inhibited. Inhibition of MeAIB uptake by vanadate and pV was not blocked by cycloheximide, and oubain did not inhibit uptake. Vanadate also inhibited amino acid deprivation-stimulated MeAIB uptake. Insulin-stimulated MeAIB uptake was also inhibited in rat hepatoma cells. Thus vanadate and pV mimic insulin to stimulate glucose uptake but inhibit system A amino acid uptake. The relative inhibitory concentrations of vanadate and pV suggest that the mechanism may involve PTP inhibition.

so, let me please try to summarize some points pro and contra vanadyl as a dietary supplement for healthy young bodybuilders:

PRO:

- some ?ndividuals report anecdotally increased "pumps" and "muscular fullness"
- vanadyl may enhance cellular glucose uptake

CONTRA:
- some studies suggest that vanadyl may enhance glucose uptake only in people with insulin resistance (Diabetes Type II) or in people with absolute insulin deficiency (Diabetes Type I) but NOT in healthy individuals

- vanadyl does accumulate in many tissues, including bones, which is a very important point when evaluating long-term-toxicity: as with all "cumulating" substances, even intermittant ingestion may be harmful in the long run.

- vanadyl may inhibit amino acid uptake into muscle cells, which would be absolutely counterproductive to every weight-lifting program

- vanadyl has indeed a dose-dependent spectrum of toxic effects, some of which are reviewed here:

Vanadium and tungsten derivatives as antidiabetic agents: a review of their toxic effects.

Domingo JL.
Laboratory of Toxicology and Environmental Health, School of Medicine, Rovira i Virgili University, Reus, Spain.

...However, because of the tissue accumulation and potential toxicity derived from chronic administration of vanadium and tungsten compounds, the pharmacological use of vanadate or tungstate in the treatment of diabetes is not necessarily exempt from concern. In the context of a potential use in the treatment of human diabetes mellitus, the most relevant toxic effects of vanadium derivatives are reviewed and compared with those reported for tungsten. Hematological and biochemical alterations, loss of body weight, nephrotoxicity, immunotoxicity, reproductive and developmental toxicity, and behavioral toxicity have been reported to occur following exposure to vanadium compounds. Moreover, vanadium also has a mitogenic activity affecting the distribution of chromosomes during mitosis and inducing aneuploidy-related end points. ...

In sum, I must say that the number and relevance of potential benefits from vanadyl supplementation ("pumps", increased muscular fullness) are in a very bad relation to the number and relevance of potential concerns regarding its other properties (interference with amino-acid uptake, questionable effects on glucose uptake in healthy individuals, tissue accumulation, and a plethora of potential toxic effects).

I am very sure that I will never again purchase any dietary supplement that contains vanadyl beyond the microgram range.

leonidas300
11-26-2007, 08:38 AM
It just occurred to me that if you are one of the people who gets pumped up from vanadium, then you may want to reconsider your diet and exercise habits. You may be getting pumped because you are pre-diabetic.

Interesting hypothesis, you are so smart.

leonidas300
11-26-2007, 08:40 AM
My company and myself have the knowledge and experience to discussion most aspects of health with excellent judgement.

Nice anthropomorphism of your company. Maybe you do indeed have the experience, but your grammar is atrocious.

DRP7
11-26-2007, 10:18 AM
... I think this is abit above your understanding.

well, you have demonstrated that you are surely the right person to make such judgements.

My company and myself have the knowledge and experience to discussion most aspects of health with excellent judgement.

what I wanted to say is that I didn't like how you judged or estimated the 'level of understanding' of other people. moreso in the light of your own highly questionable implications you have drawn from the study on 100 mg/kg vanadyl in diabetic rats on brain GSH levels and lipid peroxidation.

11-26-2007, 03:15 PM
To all the people whinnying and crying in this thread get a life.
If you don't like it don't use it.
Period.
Don't hate on others for using it with success.

And to ppl saying I'm naive or whatever lol, ive been on this forum for years longer than most of you.....
and if your so experienced post some pictures up....

terracotta
11-26-2007, 03:51 PM
I think they include it because everyone does. So people won't say, "but this doesn't have vanadyl in it". Similar to how glycocyamine was added to a lot of products.

Dr.Dave1
11-26-2007, 04:23 PM
To all the people whinnying and crying in this thread get a life.
If you don't like it don't use it.
Period.
Don't hate on others for using it with success.

And to ppl saying I'm naive or whatever lol, ive been on this forum for years longer than most of you.....
and if your so experienced post some pictures up....

This is a community and what goes on here is sharing of info so people can make an informed decision about what they put in their bodies. Many supp companies do not provide much info about the possible side effects of the ingredients they include in their products (some are probably unaware). If you have a problem with people sharing and discussing research or you have nothing to contribute then feel free to avoid this thread and the supp science section for that matter. If on the other hand you have some research or other sources to support your claims then by all means feel free to share them, the more minds involved the better.

And for what it's worth time on the forum is not a prerequisite for a high supplement IQ . . . everyone is welcome to contribute, their contributions will speak for themselves

NO HYPE
11-26-2007, 04:52 PM

Eclipse 2000 Vanadyl Sulfate - 60 mg

Olympian Labs Vanadyl Sulfate - 60 mg

Bricker Labs Big-V Triple Strength - 30 mg

Angel Sports Nutrition Extreme Drive Power - 30 mg

Eclipse 2000 Vanadyl XX - 30 mg

Olympian Labs Vanadyl Plus - 30 mg

SciFit Nitrox II Soft Gel - 30 mg

Millennium Sport Kreaceps XS - 20 mg

IDS Nitric Intensifire - 15 mg

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/van.html

ElMariachi
11-26-2007, 05:46 PM

Eclipse 2000 Vanadyl Sulfate - 60 mg

Olympian Labs Vanadyl Sulfate - 60 mg

Bricker Labs Big-V Triple Strength - 30 mg

Angel Sports Nutrition Extreme Drive Power - 30 mg

Eclipse 2000 Vanadyl XX - 30 mg

Olympian Labs Vanadyl Plus - 30 mg

SciFit Nitrox II Soft Gel - 30 mg

Millennium Sport Kreaceps XS - 20 mg

IDS Nitric Intensifire - 15 mg

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/van.html

60mg.......strong WTF????????

gjohnson5
11-26-2007, 05:51 PM
last I checked, this was the supplement science forum not a company promotion....
and LOL @ success

To all the people whinnying and crying in this thread get a life.
If you don't like it don't use it.
Period.
Don't hate on others for using it with success.

And to ppl saying I'm naive or whatever lol, ive been on this forum for years longer than most of you.....
and if your so experienced post some pictures up....

NO HYPE
11-27-2007, 04:37 AM
~~

We take a variety of supplements, but none of them seem to have a toxicity profile like vanadyl.... especially at such low dosages.

The pertinence threat level is still only green.

The degree of risk may be low so far.... but we simply do not know the threat level for the chronic supplementation of vanadyl in healthy adults.

Green:

Gastrointestinal/respiratory tract irritation with nausea, vomiting and possible burns.

Flu-like symptoms, aches/pains

Greenish-black tongue

Not Green:

Hepatoxicity

Nephrotoxicity

Renal peroxidation

Central nervous system effects and/or neurological effects.

Depression of aortic cholesterol

Phosphorylation/dephosphorylation inhibition

Na+ -K+ -ATPase inhibition

Depression of growth

NO HYPE
11-27-2007, 04:48 AM
Occupational and Environmental Medicine, Vol 51, 500-503

Renal toxicity and arterial hypertension in rats chronically exposed to vanadate

The effects of 1, 10, or 40 micrograms/ml of vanadium, given for six or seven months as sodium metavanadate in drinking water on cardiovascular and biochemical variables and the electrolyte metabolism of male Sprague-Dawley rats were investigated. At the end of the exposure period, all animals exposed to vanadate had increased systolic and diastolic blood pressure. This effect was not dose dependent and heart rate and cardiac inotropism were not affected. The role of defective renal function and electrolyte metabolism in such effects was supported, in the rats exposed to 10 and 40 ppm of vanadium, by the following changes: (a) decreased Na, + K(+)-ATPase activity in the distal tubules of nephrons; (b) increased urinary excretion of potassium; (c) increase in plasma renin activity and urinary kallikrein, kininase I, and kininase II activities; (d) increased plasma aldosterone (only in the rats treated with 10 ppm of vanadium). The alterations in the rats exposed to 1 ppm of vanadium were: (a) reduced urinary calcium excretion; (b) reduced urinary kallikrein activity; (c) reduced plasma aldosterone. These results suggest that blood hypertension in rats exposed to vanadate depends on specific mechanisms of renal toxicity related to the levels of exposure.

NO HYPE
11-27-2007, 04:54 AM
Volume 19, Number 6 / December, 2006
DOI 10.1007/s10534-006-9005-3

Reduction of oxidative stress induced vanadium toxicity by complexing with a flavonoid, quercetin: A pragmatic therapeutic approach for diabetes

Vanadium compounds are known to lower blood glucose level in diabetes but are associated with toxicity. In vitro cytotoxicity of VOSO4 and bis(quercetinato) oxovanadium(IV) (BQOV) was examined in CHO cells. Both the agents showed time and dose dependent increase in ROS generation however it was relatively less in BQOV. Moreover, VOSO4 also caused higher necrosis. Hypoglycemic potential of VOSO4 and BQOV was tested in streptozotocin-induced diabetic Balb/c mice. A marked difference was observed in the hypoglycemic action of VOSO4 and BQOV treated mice that lasted only for about 6 h in VOSO4 as against 24 h in BQOV. Comparison of acute toxicity of the compounds in normal Balb/c mice revealed negligible nephrotoxicity of BQOV. Kidney analyses of VOSO4 treated animals revealed high ROS generation and tubular necrosis. Similarly serum levels of urea and creatinine were elevated in these animals indicating kidney dysfunction. No such abnormality was observed in BQOV treated animals. Reduced nephrotoxicity of BQOV could be due to increased catalase activity found in the kidney of BQOV treated animals and BQOV?s radical scavenging activity. The data clearly demonstrates immense hypoglycemic activity and reduced toxicity of BQOV thus making the conjugate a suitable candidate for therapeutic utility.

11-27-2007, 04:56 AM
last I checked, this was the supplement science forum not a company promotion....
and LOL @ success

lets see what success you've had pal
care to post any pics?

deserusan
11-27-2007, 05:13 AM
lets see what success you've had pal
care to post any pics?

This is the supplement science section and not a cock measuring contest.

ElMariachi
11-27-2007, 08:25 AM
This is the supplement science section and not a cock measuring contest.

..............COOOOOOOKIE CRISP!!!"

Some of us prefer having real scientific studies supporting the things we use, and not broscience. I don't know, something about being healthy, 10-15 years down the road, just seems awfully appealing to me. I just can't quite put my finger on why..............

11-27-2007, 12:47 PM
This is the supplement science section and not a cock measuring contest.

..............COOOOOOOKIE CRISP!!!"

Some of us prefer having real scientific studies supporting the things we use, and not broscience. I don't know, something about being healthy, 10-15 years down the road, just seems awfully appealing to me. I just can't quite put my finger on why..............

that proved my point and anwsered my question lol
seems odd you "experts" won't post any pics to show how your pleathora of scientific knowledge has served you in developing a physique

your like "expert" swimmers who won't get in a pool

GeneGnomeX
11-27-2007, 12:54 PM
that proved my point and anwsered my question lol
seems odd you "experts" won't post any pics to show how your pleathora of scientific knowledge has served you in developing a physique

your like "expert" swimmers who won't get in a pool

You are a prime example of how size does not correlate to knowledge.

Some of us do other activities besides resistance training, and do not care about getting as big as we can (which undoubtedly has health consequences, good luck!), and do not see a point in parading half naked on an internet forum where there are perverts.

11-27-2007, 01:19 PM
You are a prime example of how size does not correlate to knowledge.

Some of us do other activities besides resistance training, and do not care about getting as big as we can (which undoubtedly has health consequences, good luck!), and do not see a point in parading half naked on an internet forum where there are perverts.

then get the fuk off of a BODYBUILDING forum

ElMariachi
11-27-2007, 01:21 PM
then get the fuk off of a BODYBUILDING forum

LOL, because he chooses to use his brain? I don't know who gave you your definition of bodybuilder, but if you think it means that it involves randomly ingesting all sorts of crap because "a good bro" told you to, then you're a moron and will only end up hurting yourself in the long run.

11-27-2007, 01:30 PM
LOL, because he chooses to use his brain? I don't know who gave you your definition of bodybuilder, but if you think it means that it involves randomly ingesting all sorts of crap because "a good bro" told you to, then you're a moron and will only end up hurting yourself in the long run.

when did i say i took it because "a good bro" told me?

point is i'd rather BODYBUILDING take advice from someone that looks like ronnie coleman than someone who looks more like gary coleman

deserusan
11-27-2007, 01:36 PM
that proved my point and anwsered my question lol
seems odd you "experts" won't post any pics to show how your pleathora of scientific knowledge has served you in developing a physique

your like "expert" swimmers who won't get in a pool

http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/img/44794/progresspic/8351.jpg

This is me as a natty which I no longer consider myself by definition of certain competing organizations. As for me being an expert I do work for a top 10 supplement company, am now formulating future products, and appear to have my **** together when it comes to training, having knowledge, etc.

11-27-2007, 01:41 PM
I do work for a top 10 supplement company

so do some of these guys and they look like theve never been in a gym....
makes you wonder about the state of bodybuilding when someone like that works for a supplement company or visits a bodybuilding forum giving out advice

but anyway, YOU have a good phsyique so I have no problems giving YOU respect or respecting YOUR opinion

ElMariachi
11-27-2007, 01:43 PM
when did i say i took it because "a good bro" told me?

point is i'd rather BODYBUILDING take advice from someone that looks like ronnie coleman than someone who looks more like gary coleman

I'd rather take bodybuilding advice from someone who has a solid background in science, who can comprehend various studies and has a solid background in human physiology, not to mention that the ability to put a whole sentence together is never overrated either.

The funny thing is that you are talking about taking advice from guys like Ronnie Coleman...who then pay guys like THIS GUY-> https://ssl.perfora.net/s146665725.onlinehome.us/bank/Image/NxCare/nxcare%20media%20images/chad.jpg

to show them what to do. Surely they aren't too concerned about taking advice from guys that they outweigh by 80...90...100+ pounds, especially considering how much dough they are giving them.

Size and knowledge have nothing to do with each other. You can be big, with outstanding genetics, and clueless as all hell when it comes to training knowledge.

11-27-2007, 01:44 PM

Claims

Lowers blood sugar
Increases muscle mass
Increases muscle vascularity and blood flow ("pumped feeling")
Mimics insulin action
Increases glycogen synthesis and storage

Theory

Vanadium or the most common supplemental form -vanadyl sulfate - is thought to mimic the physiological effects of insulin by a mechanism which remains unclear. Through this insulin-mimetic effect, vanadium is thought to promote glycogen synthesis, maintain blood glucose levels and stimulate muscle anabolism.

Scientific Support

Vanadyl sulfate supplements have been shown to normalize blood glucose levels and reduce glycosylated hemoglobin levels in patients with non-insulin dependent diabetes mellitus (NIDDM). Also in NIDDM patients, vanadium sulfate (100 mg per day – a HUGE dose) can reduce fasting glucose levels by about 20% and decrease hepatic insulin resistance. Normal (nondiabetic) subjects typically do not exhibit a significant change in glucose uptake or lipolysis, but vanadyl sulfate may acutely stimulate amino acid transport into skeletal muscle. Studies of vanadyl sulfate for weight loss and exercise performance have been variable, with most showing only modest (if any) effects on body composition. Although vanadium has become a popular dietary supplement among bodybuilders, there is limited data to support claims of increased muscle mass and strength.

Safety

Value

Vanadium is an essential trace mineral that is NOT contained in many multi-vitamin/mineral supplements. It is thought, however, that we obtain enough vanadium from our diets. For those individuals concerned with maintaining blood glucose levels – such as diabetics or people with hypoglycemia (low blood sugar), a vanadium supplement may be beneficial. Some bodybuilding and diabetic dietary supplements contain vanadium at milligram levels - when dietary needs are likely to be only in microgram amounts (1000 times lower). Prolonged consumption of high dose vanadium supplements is not recommended.

Dosage

There is no Daily Value (DV) or Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for vanadium. Vanadium is now considered to be an essential trace mineral and 10mcg (micrograms) per day is thought to satisfy the body's needs (our diets probably contain about 10-30mcg of vanadium per day).

References

1. Clarkson PM, Rawson ES. Nutritional supplements to increase muscle mass. Crit Rev Food Sci Nutr. 1999 Jul;39(4):317-28. 2. Cohen N, Halberstam M, Shlimovich P, Chang CJ, Shamoon H, Rossetti L. Oral vanadyl sulfate improves hepatic and peripheral insulin sensitivity in patients with non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus. J Clin Invest. 1995 Jun;95(6):2501-9. 3. Dehghani GA, Ahmadi S, Omrani GR. Effects of vanadyl sulphate on glucose homeostasis in severe diabetes induced by streptozotocin in rats. Indian J Med Res. 1997 Nov;106:481-5. 4. Goldfine AB, Patti ME, Zuberi L, Goldstein BJ, LeBlanc R, Landaker EJ, Jiang ZY, Willsky GR, Kahn CR. Metabolic effects of vanadyl sulfate in humans with non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus: in vivo and in vitro studies. Metabolism. 2000 Mar;49(3):400-10. 5. Halberstam M, Cohen N, Shlimovich P, Rossetti L, Shamoon H. Oral vanadyl sulfate improves insulin sensitivity in NIDDM but not in obese nondiabetic subjects. Diabetes. 1996 May;45(5):659-66. 6. Hoeger WW, Harris C, Long EM, Hopkins DR. Four-week supplementation with a natural dietary compound produces favorable changes in body composition. Adv Ther. 1998 Sep-Oct;15(5):305-14. 7. Jandhyala BS, Hom GJ. Minireview: physiological and pharmacological properties of vanadium. Life Sci. 1983 Oct 3;33(14):1325-40. 8. Kreider RB. Dietary supplements and the promotion of muscle growth with resistance exercise. Sports Med. 1999 Feb;27(2):97-110. 9. McCarty MF. Complementary measures for promoting insulin sensitivity in skeletal muscle. Med Hypotheses. 1998 Dec;51(6):451-64. 10. Nechay BR. Mechanisms of action of vanadium. Annu Rev Pharmacol Toxicol. 1984;24:501-24. 11. Preuss HG, Jarrell ST, Scheckenbach R, Lieberman S, Anderson RA. Comparative effects of chromium, vanadium and gymnema sylvestre on sugar-induced blood pressure elevations in SHR. J Am Coll Nutr. 1998 Apr;17(2):116-23. 12. Zorbas YG, Federenko YF, Naexu KA. Urinary excretion of microelements in endurance-trained volunteers during restriction of muscular activity and chronic rehydration. Biol Trace Elem Res. 1994 Mar;40(3):189-202.

ElMariachi
11-27-2007, 01:48 PM
Yea.......you can use Wikipedia.

Claims

Lowers blood sugar
Increases muscle mass
Increases muscle vascularity and blood flow ("pumped feeling")
Mimics insulin action
Increases glycogen synthesis and storage

Theory

Vanadium or the most common supplemental form -vanadyl sulfate - is thought to mimic the physiological effects of insulin by a mechanism which remains unclear. Through this insulin-mimetic effect, vanadium is thought to promote glycogen synthesis, maintain blood glucose levels and stimulate muscle anabolism.

Scientific Support

Vanadyl sulfate supplements have been shown to normalize blood glucose levels and reduce glycosylated hemoglobin levels in patients with non-insulin dependent diabetes mellitus (NIDDM). Also in NIDDM patients, vanadium sulfate (100 mg per day ?€“ a HUGE dose) can reduce fasting glucose levels by about 20% and decrease hepatic insulin resistance. Normal (nondiabetic) subjects typically do not exhibit a significant change in glucose uptake or lipolysis, but vanadyl sulfate may acutely stimulate amino acid transport into skeletal muscle. Studies of vanadyl sulfate for weight loss and exercise performance have been variable, with most showing only modest (if any) effects on body composition. Although vanadium has become a popular dietary supplement among bodybuilders, there is limited data to support claims of increased muscle mass and strength.

Safety

Value

Vanadium is an essential trace mineral that is NOT contained in many multi-vitamin/mineral supplements. It is thought, however, that we obtain enough vanadium from our diets. For those individuals concerned with maintaining blood glucose levels ?€“ such as diabetics or people with hypoglycemia (low blood sugar), a vanadium supplement may be beneficial. Some bodybuilding and diabetic dietary supplements contain vanadium at milligram levels - when dietary needs are likely to be only in microgram amounts (1000 times lower). Prolonged consumption of high dose vanadium supplements is not recommended.

Dosage

There is no Daily Value (DV) or Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for vanadium. Vanadium is now considered to be an essential trace mineral and 10mcg (micrograms) per day is thought to satisfy the body's needs (our diets probably contain about [ 10-30mcg of vanadium per day.

(That is 10-30MCG(MICROGRAMS) a day, not 10-50MG(MILLIGRAMS) like some "guru's" recommend)

GeneGnomeX
11-27-2007, 01:49 PM
Nice plagiarism. 10-30 mcg is a typical dietary intake, yet some supplements have up to 30 MG.

Claims

Lowers blood sugar
Increases muscle mass
Increases muscle vascularity and blood flow ("pumped feeling")
Mimics insulin action
Increases glycogen synthesis and storage

Theory

Vanadium or the most common supplemental form -vanadyl sulfate - is thought to mimic the physiological effects of insulin by a mechanism which remains unclear. Through this insulin-mimetic effect, vanadium is thought to promote glycogen synthesis, maintain blood glucose levels and stimulate muscle anabolism.

Scientific Support

Vanadyl sulfate supplements have been shown to normalize blood glucose levels and reduce glycosylated hemoglobin levels in patients with non-insulin dependent diabetes mellitus (NIDDM). Also in NIDDM patients, vanadium sulfate (100 mg per day – a HUGE dose) can reduce fasting glucose levels by about 20% and decrease hepatic insulin resistance. Normal (nondiabetic) subjects typically do not exhibit a significant change in glucose uptake or lipolysis, but vanadyl sulfate may acutely stimulate amino acid transport into skeletal muscle. Studies of vanadyl sulfate for weight loss and exercise performance have been variable, with most showing only modest (if any) effects on body composition. Although vanadium has become a popular dietary supplement among bodybuilders, there is limited data to support claims of increased muscle mass and strength.

Safety

Value

Vanadium is an essential trace mineral that is NOT contained in many multi-vitamin/mineral supplements. It is thought, however, that we obtain enough vanadium from our diets. For those individuals concerned with maintaining blood glucose levels – such as diabetics or people with hypoglycemia (low blood sugar), a vanadium supplement may be beneficial. Some bodybuilding and diabetic dietary supplements contain vanadium at milligram levels - when dietary needs are likely to be only in microgram amounts (1000 times lower). Prolonged consumption of high dose vanadium supplements is not recommended.

Dosage

There is no Daily Value (DV) or Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for vanadium. Vanadium is now considered to be an essential trace mineral and 10mcg (micrograms) per day is thought to satisfy the body's needs (our diets probably contain about 10-30mcg of vanadium per day).

References

1. Clarkson PM, Rawson ES. Nutritional supplements to increase muscle mass. Crit Rev Food Sci Nutr. 1999 Jul;39(4):317-28. 2. Cohen N, Halberstam M, Shlimovich P, Chang CJ, Shamoon H, Rossetti L. Oral vanadyl sulfate improves hepatic and peripheral insulin sensitivity in patients with non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus. J Clin Invest. 1995 Jun;95(6):2501-9. 3. Dehghani GA, Ahmadi S, Omrani GR. Effects of vanadyl sulphate on glucose homeostasis in severe diabetes induced by streptozotocin in rats. Indian J Med Res. 1997 Nov;106:481-5. 4. Goldfine AB, Patti ME, Zuberi L, Goldstein BJ, LeBlanc R, Landaker EJ, Jiang ZY, Willsky GR, Kahn CR. Metabolic effects of vanadyl sulfate in humans with non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus: in vivo and in vitro studies. Metabolism. 2000 Mar;49(3):400-10. 5. Halberstam M, Cohen N, Shlimovich P, Rossetti L, Shamoon H. Oral vanadyl sulfate improves insulin sensitivity in NIDDM but not in obese nondiabetic subjects. Diabetes. 1996 May;45(5):659-66. 6. Hoeger WW, Harris C, Long EM, Hopkins DR. Four-week supplementation with a natural dietary compound produces favorable changes in body composition. Adv Ther. 1998 Sep-Oct;15(5):305-14. 7. Jandhyala BS, Hom GJ. Minireview: physiological and pharmacological properties of vanadium. Life Sci. 1983 Oct 3;33(14):1325-40. 8. Kreider RB. Dietary supplements and the promotion of muscle growth with resistance exercise. Sports Med. 1999 Feb;27(2):97-110. 9. McCarty MF. Complementary measures for promoting insulin sensitivity in skeletal muscle. Med Hypotheses. 1998 Dec;51(6):451-64. 10. Nechay BR. Mechanisms of action of vanadium. Annu Rev Pharmacol Toxicol. 1984;24:501-24. 11. Preuss HG, Jarrell ST, Scheckenbach R, Lieberman S, Anderson RA. Comparative effects of chromium, vanadium and gymnema sylvestre on sugar-induced blood pressure elevations in SHR. J Am Coll Nutr. 1998 Apr;17(2):116-23. 12. Zorbas YG, Federenko YF, Naexu KA. Urinary excretion of microelements in endurance-trained volunteers during restriction of muscular activity and chronic rehydration. Biol Trace Elem Res. 1994 Mar;40(3):189-202.

ElMariachi
11-27-2007, 01:52 PM
Keep in mind that 1 milligram=1000 micrograms.

The recommendation is 10-30micrograms, while some folks are using 10000-60000 micrograms everyday.

boyscouT
11-27-2007, 01:53 PM
then get the fuk off of a BODYBUILDING forum
You first.

Skigazzi
11-27-2007, 02:10 PM
You first.

Boyscout for Mod!

DRP7
11-27-2007, 04:22 PM
...point is i'd rather BODYBUILDING take advice from someone that looks like ronnie coleman than someone who looks more like gary coleman

in all seriousness, I would definitively NOT take the advice from someone who looks like ronnie coleman, because I KNOW that he got this shape only by ingesting and injecting a few tons of chemicals, drugs and steroids.
I would rather take the advice of someone who is 100% natural and has still achieved a huge progress (e.g. pu12 here at this forum).

DRP7
11-27-2007, 04:32 PM
..., but vanadyl sulfate may acutely stimulate amino acid transport into skeletal muscle. ...

it's rather the opposite case. I know of three studies that investigated the effects of vanadyl on amino acid uptake (intestinal / muscular): two of these studies found that vanadyl INHIBITED amino acid uptake.
from what I could gather from various reviews, there is consensus in the literature that vanadyl is NOT protein-anabolic. it mimicks insulin only partially with regards to its effects on glucose uptake. but it does not have similarities to insulin when it comes to amino acids and protein metabolism.

Caiolgn
11-27-2007, 05:59 PM
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/clabs/flood.html

It's a pity that such a good supplement carries this ingredient.. Not only it has all those toxic effects but also inhibit nitric oxide production, as stated by NoHype.. A total contradiction

NO HYPE
11-27-2007, 06:12 PM
Safety Issues

The tolerable upper intake level for vanadium in adults has been set at 1.8 mg. [22]

Studies in humans and animals suggest that excess vanadium is toxic; furthermore, vanadium accumulation may occur if relatively small excess doses are taken for a prolonged time. [18,23-25]

Possible toxic effects include hepatotoxicity, nephrotoxicity, teratogenicity, and developmental/reproductive toxicity.

I guess we can add reproductive dysfunction to the list as well....

Hepatoxicity

Nephrotoxicity

Renal peroxidation

Central nervous system effects and/or neurological effects.

Depression of aortic cholesterol

Phosphorylation/dephosphorylation inhibition

Na+ -K+ -ATPase inhibition

Depression of growth

Dosage

Estimated nutritional needs for vanadium fall in the range of 10 to 30 mcg/day; the average American diet provides 10 to 60 mcg/day. [21] Much higher dosages have been used in studies, but their safety is questionable.

18. Srivastava AK. Anti-diabetic and toxic effects of vanadium compounds. Mol Cell Biochem. 2000;206:177-182.

19. Fawcett JP, Farquhar SJ, Walker RJ, et al. The effect of oral vanadyl sulfate on body composition and performance in weight-training athletes. Int J Sport Nutr. 1996;6:382-390.

21. Harland BF, Harden-Williams BA. Is vanadium of human nutritional importance yet? J Am Diet Assoc. 1994;94:891-894.

22. Dietary Reference Intakes for Vitamin A, Vitamin K, Arsenic, Boron, Chromium, Copper, Iodine, Iron, Manganese, Molybdenum, Nickel, Silicon, Vanadium, and Zinc (2001).

23. Domingo JL, Gomez M, Llobet JM, et al. Oral vanadium administration to streptozotocin-diabetic rats has marked negative side effects which are independent of the form of vanadium used. Toxicology. 1991;66:279-287.

24. Sanchez DJ, Colomina MT, Domingo JL. Effects of vanadium on activity and learning in rats. Physiol Behav. 1998;63:345-350.

25. Domingo JL. Vanadium: a review of the reproductive and developmental toxicity. Reprod Toxicol. 1996;10:175-182.

http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetContent.aspx?token=0b21bdaa-d1b7-47ef-8d3c-c6c194a26fe8&chunkiid=24483

NO HYPE
11-27-2007, 06:38 PM
In view of a potential vanadium nephrotoxicity a therapeutic application of vanadium compounds needs a critical re-evaluation.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T4P-45578WC-1&_user=10&_coverDate=04%2F01%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=8d9419fe5173ae67a73828a1c3542379

NO HYPE
11-27-2007, 06:48 PM
~

Optimal Nutrients - Vanadyl Sulfate 50mg

Take 1-3 capsules per day, or as directied by your Health Care Professional.

Cable Curling CincoUno
11-27-2007, 10:17 PM
~

Optimal Nutrients - Vanadyl Sulfate 50mg

Take 1-3 capsules per day, or as directied by your Health Care Professional.

hahahah

as directed by your health care professional lol

interesting read as always No Hype

NO HYPE
11-27-2007, 10:21 PM
~

Optimal Nutrients

Vana Trace

Serving Size: 1 Capsule

Adults take 1-3 capsules daily, as a dietary supplement.

Bane
11-28-2007, 04:11 AM
Never assume that the guys that formulate products have the slightest idea of what the f##k they are doing

bbattag
11-28-2007, 08:45 AM
Can someone summarize. There is too much flaming.....I cant seem to find where the real info is.....

ElMariachi
11-28-2007, 08:50 AM
Can someone summarize. There is too much flaming.....I cant seem to find where the real info is.....

CLIFF NOTES:

Supplementing with vanadyl sulfate is basically nonsense. It can be toxic in the doses that supplement companies supply it in, and can also lead to decreased amino acid uptake, as well all sorts of long-term problems, including ones involving the reproductive system.

terracotta
11-28-2007, 10:07 AM
CLIFF NOTES:

Supplementing with vanadyl sulfate is basically nonsense. It can be toxic in the doses that supplement companies supply it in, and can also lead to decreased amino acid uptake, as well all sorts of long-term problems, including ones involving the reproductive system.

- 1.8 mg per day is the suggested upper tolerable limit. Companies are suggesting using ranges between 20 and 150 mg per day.

DRP7
11-28-2007, 10:13 AM
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/clabs/flood.html

It's a pity that such a good supplement carries this ingredient.. Not only it has all those toxic effects but also inhibit nitric oxide production, as stated by NoHype.. A total contradiction

yes, white flood is surely an awesome product, but its content of vanadium is one reason why I passed on that supplement.

I think that vanadyl may indeed support the "pumps" that quite some people are reporting, especially when on a high-carb diet. but as this thread has already revealed, it appears that vanadium is not really the smartest choice for this purpose.

if the label of white flood actually follows FDA guidelines then it is very probable that it has an amount of vanadium in the two-digit mg range (> 10 mg) per serving. it is directly behind the cocoa extract and even before rhodiola rosea, so its defintiively not in the microgram range.

let me say one more thing:

if usual diet provides only traces of vanadium (= around 1 mg or below), then such a mineral must be treated differently than other minerals that are being consumed at much larger quantities.

example: it's no big deal to supplement with 20, 30 or even 40 mg/d of zinc. because this would increase your intake by factor 2x-3x.
in contrast to that, by supplementing 10 -100 mg/d of a mineral that is usually ingested only at < 1mg/d, you would increase your daily intake by factor 10x-100x. I mean, this is REAL mega-dosing. mega-dosing may be no problem with water-soluble, non-toxic susbtances (e.g. vitamin c, b-vitamins), were you can increase your intake by factor 100 -1000 without any apparent side effects. however, things dramatically change when we start speaking about minerals, especially such minerals that can accumulate in the body and which interfere with redox-processes in the body.
everybody was always thinking how healthy selenium is. yes, selenium is essential and very important for human health. but recent studies found that supplementation with 200 microgram/d of selenium increased the risk to get diabetes and worsened insulin resistance. 200 micrograms did this! this is only factor 4x above the RDA (50 microgram) that most people find to be already very low.

bottom line: sometimes it can be dangerous to play with high doses of certain metals, and I believe that vanadium is in the group of these metals that should be ingested with care.

DRP7
11-28-2007, 10:16 AM
CLIFF NOTES:

Supplementing with vanadyl sulfate is basically nonsense. It can be toxic in the doses that supplement companies supply it in, and can also lead to decreased amino acid uptake, as well all sorts of long-term problems, including ones involving the reproductive system.

- 1.8 mg per day is the suggested upper tolerable limit. Companies are suggesting using ranging between 20 and 150 mg per day.

excellent summary! this is indeed the essence of what I have gathered from this thread. I would rep you if I could.

terracotta
11-28-2007, 10:31 AM
bottom line: sometimes it can be dangerous to play with high doses of certain metals, and I believe that vanadium is in the group of these metals that should be ingested with care.

Yes, the difference between macrominerals and trace minerals. Wikipedia has a nice image:

NO HYPE
11-28-2007, 06:35 PM
Source: Current Vascular Pharmacology, Volume 4, Number 3, July 2006 , pp. 199-203(5)
Authors: Huang, Yuh-Chin T.1; Ghio, Andrew J.1
Publisher: Bentham Science Publishers

Vascular Effects of Ambient Pollutant Particles and Metals

Exposure to ambient pollutant particle (APP) is associated with increased cardiovascular morbidity and mortality. Recent evidence indicates that APP-induced vasoconstriction may be an important mechanism. APP constricts systemic arteries and increases blood pressure in human. APP decreases the diameter of pulmonary arterioles in animals. Intratracheal instillation of APP increases pulmonary artery resistance in isolated buffer-perfused lungs, and APP constricts isolated arterial rings. APP-induced vasoconstriction may be secondary to the release of inflammatory mediators from lung cells, which then activate vascular endothelial and smooth muscle cells. The vasoconstriction may also be caused by alterations in autonomic nervous system balance. Some soluble metals (e.g., vanadium) can produce acute vasoconstriction in in vitro and in vivo systems, and contribute to the systemic health effects of APP since they can more easily permeate the alveolar-capillary membrane than the whole particle. Both APP and its associated metals have been shown to enhance the release of endothelin 1 and reactive oxygen species, activate epithelial growth factor receptor and mitogenactivated protein kinases, and inhibit nitric oxide vasodilator activity. The vasoactive properties of APP and metals raised the possibility that patients with vascular diseases may be more susceptible to APP-induced adverse health effects, and that people who are regularly exposed to high amount of metals, e.g., vanadium contained in certain dietary and musclebuilding regimens or in the air of boiler making plants, may have increased risk for vascular diseases. Understanding how metals induce vasoconstriction may lead to the development of novel vasodilator therapies for vascular diseases.

eldawg
11-28-2007, 06:47 PM
I was checking the ingredients on my multi (ON Opti-Men) and noticed that it had a whopping 100mcg of Vanadium per 3 caplet serving.

Even at 20% or 30% versions, the high mg doses of vanadyl sulfate in some of these other supplements do seem quite excessive.

ram_6000000
11-28-2007, 07:36 PM
100 mcg is ok.

NO HYPE
11-28-2007, 07:48 PM
100 mcg is ok.

Maybe he was thinking 100 mcg, equals 1 gram?

eldawg
11-28-2007, 08:17 PM
100 mcg is ok.

Maybe he was thinking 100 mcg, equals 1 gram?

Sorry guys...I just wanted to use that as an example of what a more reasonable dose of Vanadium may be. I am well aware that 100mcg is 0.1mg :)

NO HYPE
11-28-2007, 08:25 PM
Sorry guys...I just wanted to use that as an example of what a more reasonable dose of Vanadium may be. I am well aware that 100mcg is 0.1mg :)

Alright.... just wanted to make sure that vanadyl wasn't over-accumulating, and impairing your judgement.:D

ram_6000000
11-28-2007, 08:31 PM
So do you think many of the products containing Vanadyl will now be re-formulated?? I'd really love to try MHP Trac NO Extreme, minus that ingredient.

Bane
11-28-2007, 08:49 PM
So do you think many of the products containing Vanadyl will now be re-formulated??

I'll beat your question with a question :
You think any of these people who put stuff in their mouth without having the slightest idea what it does will now start doing some research?

deserusan
11-28-2007, 08:51 PM
So do you think many of the products containing Vanadyl will now be re-formulated??

Only if people make a big enough stink about it. It worked with glycocyamine due to the uprisal on this forum.

You think any of these people who put stuff in their mouth without having the slightest idea what it does will now start doing some research?

You should be a motivational speaker for hookers. :p

ram_6000000
11-28-2007, 08:52 PM
Good point....

Bane
11-28-2007, 08:53 PM
You should be a motivational speaker for hookers. :p

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA
I love you Des(in a manly,100% nonsexual way)

terracotta
11-29-2007, 09:15 AM
Only if people make a big enough stink about it. It worked with glycocyamine due to the uprisal on this forum.

You should be a motivational speaker for hookers. :p

There'd need to be a sister thread in the main supplement section for all the people who don't wander in here, and probably never noticed that vanadium sulfate is in their product of choice.

terracotta
11-29-2007, 07:03 PM
For products containing vanadyl sulfate, in which vanadyl sulfate is not the primary ingredient, so far I've found - Millennium Sports Ragnarok, Controlled Labs White Flood and Dymatize Xpand.

Anyone find any others?

Those are the 3 products that don't contain l-carnitine which is illegal in Canada (:rolleyes: )

I've ordered citrulline malate, beta alanine and cytomax to try as an intra-workout enhancer (coupled with green mag) instead. Who knows, it might work better than the ragnarok.

bbattag
11-29-2007, 07:05 PM
CLIFF NOTES:

Supplementing with vanadyl sulfate is basically nonsense. It can be toxic in the doses that supplement companies supply it in, and can also lead to decreased amino acid uptake, as well all sorts of long-term problems, including ones involving the reproductive system.

Thanks. Appreciate the cliff notes

deserusan
11-29-2007, 07:09 PM
There'd need to be a sister thread in the main supplement section for all the people who don't wander in here, and probably never noticed that vanadium sulfate is in their product of choice.

I guess I could write something on this and blog it. I'm getting about 12-15k hit a month now so maybe that will spread the word. The only issue is that people will be like "wah, he's trying to sell Superpump." I guess the proper approach is would be to talk about the actual research and how it does not translate into "healthy" results in individuals without diabetes. While at times sometimes we can only reference research on diabetics for certain ingredients, often the results in non-diabetics leave little to be desired.

There are plenty of healthier substitutes and the real question is why aren't they being used? The obvious answer is because they take away from the profit margins which I find hilarious to those marketing their products as the most "value." They obviously don't value safety.

terracotta
11-29-2007, 07:22 PM
I guess I could write something on this and blog it. I'm getting about 12-15k hit a month now so maybe that will spread the word. The only issue is that people will be like "wah, he's trying to sell Superpump." I guess the proper approach is would be to talk about the actual research and how it does not translate into "healthy" results in individuals without diabetes. While at times sometimes we can only reference research on diabetics for certain ingredients, often the results in non-diabetics leave little to be desired.

There are plenty of healthier substitutes and the real question is why aren't they being used? The obvious answer is because they take away from the profit margins which I find hilarious to those marketing their products as the most "value." They obviously don't value safety.

NO HYPE
11-29-2007, 07:26 PM

x 2

NO HYPE
11-29-2007, 08:40 PM
For products containing vanadyl sulfate, in which vanadyl sulfate is not the primary ingredient, so far I've found - Millennium Sports Ragnarok, Controlled Labs White Flood and Dymatize Xpand.

Anyone find any others?

I found one or two:D....

Extreme Drive Power Formula - 30 mg

Big-V Triple Strength - 30 mg

Maximuscle Pump Up - 30 mg

IDS Nitric Intensifire - 15 mg

SciFit Nitrox II - 15 mg

AKG-V-C Nitric Oxide Stimulator - 15 mg

Maximuscle Pump Up -15 mg

Millennium Sport Kreaceps XS - 10 mg

KAL Blood Sugar Defense - 10 mg

DYMATIZE Xpand - 7.5 mg

Dymatize NOV - 5 mg

Scifit Kreation - 5 mg

Universal Cell Pro - 5 mg

Hard Nutrition Trib X - 5 mg

Pump Xtreme - 5 mg

Solaray Glucoreg - 5 mg

White Flood - ??

Ragnarok - ??

Omega Sports Lightning - ??

Diesel Nutrition NOS Precursor - ??

German American Technologies Sonic Pump - ??

Energized Xpand - ??

Cold Fusion EX - ??

CRE-X3 - ??

Performance Research Vertex - ??

Kre-Alkalyn Complex - ??

Full Blown Extreme - ??

Alphy
11-29-2007, 09:21 PM
example: it's no big deal to supplement with 20, 30 or even 40 mg/d of zinc. because this would increase your intake by factor 2x-3x.
in contrast to that, by supplementing 10 -100 mg/d of a mineral that is usually ingested only at < 1mg/d, you would increase your daily intake by factor 10x-100x. I mean, this is REAL mega-dosing. mega-dosing may be no problem with water-soluble, non-toxic susbtances (e.g. vitamin c, b-vitamins), were you can increase your intake by factor 100 -1000 without any apparent side effects. however, things dramatically change when we start speaking about minerals, especially such minerals that can accumulate in the body and which interfere with redox-processes in the body.
everybody was always thinking how healthy selenium is. yes, selenium is essential and very important for human health. but recent studies found that supplementation with 200 microgram/d of selenium increased the risk to get diabetes and worsened insulin resistance. 200 micrograms did this! this is only factor 4x above the RDA (50 microgram) that most people find to be already very low.

bottom line: sometimes it can be dangerous to play with high doses of certain metals, and I believe that vanadium is in the group of these metals that should be ingested with care.

200 microgram/d of selenium?? ALOT of multi's contain this much.

Of course they say it reduces certain cancers at this amount.

G.W. Hayduke
11-29-2007, 09:21 PM

NO HYPE
11-29-2007, 09:26 PM

In red high heels?

G.W. Hayduke
11-29-2007, 10:14 PM
In red high heels?

And then he cupchicks me.

NO HYPE
11-30-2007, 12:28 PM
1: J Toxicol Sci. 2007 May;32(2):185-92. Links

Effect of tiron and its combination with nutritional supplements against vanadium intoxication in female albino rats.

In the present study an attempt has been made to evaluate the effect of Tiron along with Zinc, Selenium and Vitamin E against vanadium intoxication in female albino rats. Toxicant caused significant increase in the activities of serum transaminases, serum alkaline phosphatase and lactate dehydrogenase. Significant decrease was observed in blood sugar, serum albumin and triglyceride levels whereas serum proteins, cholesterol and urea levels increased significantly during toxicity (p </= 0.001). Hepatic lipid peroxidation increased significantly, whereas significant depletion was observed in reduced glutathione after vanadium administration. The activity of glucose-6-phosphatase in the liver was also inhibited significantly after vanadium administration. A significant rise was observed in glycogen content of liver and kidney after toxicant exposure. Activities of alkaline phosphatase, adenosine triphosphatase and succinic dehydrogenase were inhibited significantly on the contrary activity of acid phosphatase elevated in kidney. Histopathological examination of the liver and kidney using light and ultramicroscopic study also substantiated the above findings. It was found that therapy with Tiron was effective but significant recovery in all the parameters was found with Tiron + Se followed by Tiron+ VitE and Tiron +Zn.

Cable Curling CincoUno
11-30-2007, 01:31 PM
I found one or two:D....

Extreme Drive Power Formula - 30 mg

Big-V Triple Strength - 30 mg

Maximuscle Pump Up - 30 mg

IDS Nitric Intensifire - 15 mg

SciFit Nitrox II - 15 mg

AKG-V-C Nitric Oxide Stimulator - 15 mg

Maximuscle Pump Up -15 mg

Millennium Sport Kreaceps XS - 10 mg

KAL Blood Sugar Defense - 10 mg

DYMATIZE Xpand - 7.5 mg

Dymatize NOV - 5 mg

Scifit Kreation - 5 mg

Universal Cell Pro - 5 mg

Hard Nutrition Trib X - 5 mg

Pump Xtreme - 5 mg

Solaray Glucoreg - 5 mg

White Flood - ??

Ragnarok - ??

Omega Sports Lightning - ??

Diesel Nutrition NOS Precursor - ??

German American Technologies Sonic Pump - ??

Energized Xpand - ??

Cold Fusion EX - ??

CRE-X3 - ??

Performance Research Vertex - ??

Kre-Alkalyn Complex - ??

Full Blown Extreme - ??

holy crap. I've tried a couple of those from companies I considered quite reputable

OneBetter
12-03-2007, 02:37 PM
I found one or two:D....

Extreme Drive Power Formula - 30 mg

Big-V Triple Strength - 30 mg

Maximuscle Pump Up - 30 mg

IDS Nitric Intensifire - 15 mg

SciFit Nitrox II - 15 mg

AKG-V-C Nitric Oxide Stimulator - 15 mg

Maximuscle Pump Up -15 mg

Millennium Sport Kreaceps XS - 10 mg

KAL Blood Sugar Defense - 10 mg

DYMATIZE Xpand - 7.5 mg

Dymatize NOV - 5 mg

Scifit Kreation - 5 mg

Universal Cell Pro - 5 mg

Hard Nutrition Trib X - 5 mg

Pump Xtreme - 5 mg

Solaray Glucoreg - 5 mg

White Flood - ??

Ragnarok - ??

Omega Sports Lightning - ??

Diesel Nutrition NOS Precursor - ??

German American Technologies Sonic Pump - ??

Energized Xpand - ??

Cold Fusion EX - ??

CRE-X3 - ??

Performance Research Vertex - ??

Kre-Alkalyn Complex - ??

Full Blown Extreme - ??

add this one to the list 10mg:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/evo/arimevol.html

the kick is the way this one is marketed.. ridiculous.

NO HYPE
12-03-2007, 05:53 PM
add this one to the list 10mg: http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/evo/arimevol.html

the kick is the way this one is marketed.. ridiculous.

Nice, but I kinda had my hopes set on Optimal Nutrients, 150 mg serving.... my DNA are mutating just thinking about it.:D

NastyNally
12-03-2007, 08:30 PM
Should I use my white flood or is it a toxic? lol Seriously should I use it what do you guys think.

NO HYPE
12-03-2007, 08:33 PM
Seriously should I use it what do you guys think.

Seeing how they will not disclose the actual amount.... that's for you to decide.

ElMariachi
12-03-2007, 08:34 PM
Should I use my white flood or is it a toxic? lol Seriously should I use it what do you guys think.

I wouldn't worry about it. I think problems with vanadyl will arise with the folks who consistently use it as a control for blood sugar, and not someone who occasionally uses it in a preworkout product. Truth be told, I would avoid it as much as possible, but unless you're using White Flood 365 days a year, you'll be just fine.

ElMariachi
12-03-2007, 08:35 PM
Seeing how they will not disclose the actual amount.... that's for you to decide.

I do think that the more people become aware of things like this, the less likely companies will be to use it. Look what happened with the whole glycocyamine issue........a lot of major players backed off from using it in their products after people threw a fit.

NO HYPE
12-03-2007, 10:16 PM
Should I use my white flood or is it a toxic? lol Seriously should I use it what do you guys think.

I agree on the White Flood.... the dosage cannot be that high anyways however, the amount should always be disclosed (considering it's potential for chronic toxicity).

I think problems with vanadyl will arise with the folks who consistently use it as a control for blood sugar, and not someone who occasionally uses it in a preworkout product.

Well.... I guess here's where I've gotta get off the bus.:D

Consider the fact that various (daily) pre and/or post-workout supps contain it at high dosages.

Here's just one example....

Extreme Drive Power Formula

Di-Arginine Malate 3g
Di-Creatine Malate 3g
Taurine 2g
N-Acetyl-Glutamine 2g
Betaine (Anhydrous) 2g
Gamma Oryzanol 1g
American Ginseng 1g
Guanidinopropionic Acid 500mg
Glycocyamine 500mg
Caffeine 300mg

30 mg a day, everyday. (that's 5.4 grams in 6 months).

No more than 1.8 mg/day should be used in people.

people who are regularly exposed to high amount of metals, e.g., vanadium contained in certain dietary and musclebuilding regimens, may have increased risk for vascular diseases.

Bane
12-03-2007, 10:32 PM
30 g a day, everyday. (that's 720 grams in 6 months).

Isn't that 30mg and 5,4 grams respectively?

NO HYPE
12-03-2007, 11:07 PM
Isn't that 30mg and 5,4 grams respectively?

Edited.... I'm not sure where I got that one from.

Bane
12-03-2007, 11:13 PM
Just to drop some random thought, when i looked at vanadyl a few years ago, it was investigated in some pharmaceutical resear4ch as an alternative carrier for insulin in place of Zinc. Research then demonstrated that the vanadium-insulin complex was more succesful at controlling blood glucose levels than the zinc-glucose complex used in insulin injections up to today. However oral vanadium did nothing to help blood glucose levels. In the end they dropped the idea of using it as a carier due to toxicity concerns. Still can't believe they use it to this day

NO HYPE
12-04-2007, 05:47 AM
Just to drop some random thought, when i looked at vanadyl a few years ago, it was investigated in some pharmaceutical resear4ch as an alternative carrier for insulin in place of Zinc. Research then demonstrated that the vanadium-insulin complex was more succesful at controlling blood glucose levels than the zinc-glucose complex used in insulin injections up to today. However oral vanadium did nothing to help blood glucose levels. In the end they dropped the idea of using it as a carier due to toxicity concerns. Still can't believe they use it to this day

I have a feeling that many individuals using this product on a daily basis in high dosages, are going to regret it in the years to come. I can foresee health issues of unknown origin surfacing.

terracotta
12-04-2007, 04:00 PM
MST has reported that Ragnarok has < 600 mcg of elemental vanadium per scoop. So at 2 scoops this should still put you in the safe range.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=103021031&postcount=32

NO HYPE
12-04-2007, 04:24 PM
MST has reported that Ragnarok has < 600 mcg of elemental vanadium per scoop. So at 2 scoops this should still put you in the safe range.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=103021031&postcount=32

That's good news, since it's such a popular product.... I'd bet that White Flood is around the same amount.

killerstack
12-04-2007, 04:41 PM
"Spook" from Avant labs used to talk about how Vanadyl was a worthwhile supplement. Anyone know why he thought so?

ElMariachi
12-04-2007, 06:54 PM
I have a feeling that many individuals using this product on a daily basis in high dosages, are going to regret it in the years to come. I can foresee health issues of unknown origin surfacing.

That is the problem. People will wind up with some potentially serious health complications due to taking in toxic amounts of this stuff, but by that point, many might have already discontinued it. Side-effects from stuff like this might not appear for years, well after the person has stopped using the product, which leaves them wondering what the hell happened.

Like that nutcase on Muscular Development boards was saying...."how many people do you know that died from using vanadyl???" I absolutely hate that logic btw, that is how they used to defend asbestos back in the day. Just because people aren't dying from it doesn't mean that toxically high levels of it aren't building up in their body over time, leading to all sorts of issues in the future.

ncangey0513
12-04-2007, 08:42 PM
That's good news, since it's such a popular product.... I'd bet that White Flood is around the same amount.

Energy & Antioxidant Flood Complex 3825mg ?
Inosine, Gamma-Aminobutyric Acid (GABA), Glucuronolactone, Natural Caffeine, Potassium Gluconate, Cocoa Bean (Extracted For 99% Theobromine), Vanadyl Sulfate, Evodia Rutaecarpa (95% Evodiamine Extract), L-Norvaline, Sugar Cane (Extracted For 60% Octacosanol), Coenzyme Q10, Vinpocetine, Alpha-Carotene, Zeaxanthin, Crytoxanthin, Lutein, Folic Acid, Selenium, Huperzia Seratta (Extracted For 99% Huperzine A)

pretty high on the ingredient list. maybe tank will let us know.

deserusan
12-04-2007, 10:38 PM
What concerns me, or better yet is just plain disgusting depending on how you look at it, is that all this research is readily available. Do these companies even bother to research the ingredients in their products? There are plenty of HEALTHY alternatives to VS but I'm sure they weren't used because it tacked on a few cents to the bottom line. Maybe the next time we see one of theses companies spamming the forum with how "cost effective" their products are this will be shoved up their asses.

gjohnson5
12-04-2007, 10:46 PM
The fact that there's an MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) saying quite clearly that VS is toxic should be enough. basically END OF DISCUSSION at that point.

Why it's still included in may peoples products is disgusting as you put it

What concerns me, or better yet is just plain disgusting depending on how you look at it, is that all this research is readily available. Do these companies even bother to research the ingredients in their products? There are plenty of HEALTHY alternatives to VS but I'm sure they weren't used because it tacked on a few cents to the bottom line. Maybe the next time we see one of theses companies spamming the forum with how "cost effective" their products are this will be shoved up their asses.

Bane
12-04-2007, 11:02 PM
Do these companies even bother to research the ingredients in their products?

No
No
No
and No
Actually about 80% of the formulas out there are so dump they'd make a 2nd year in pharmacy fall down laughing

ram_6000000
12-05-2007, 01:17 AM
I got a few more companies to add to the black list. MHP Anadrox and Trac NO Extreme. Also VPX NO Shotgun has a form of vanadium in it as well.

terracotta
12-05-2007, 11:51 AM
What concerns me, or better yet is just plain disgusting depending on how you look at it, is that all this research is readily available.

Just search for the term: vanadyl sulfate nitric

Can't get much easier than that.

ElMariachi
12-05-2007, 12:07 PM
Just search for the term: vanadyl sulfate nitric

Can't get much easier than that.

LOL.....obviously you are not aware that the R&D folks at most companies seem to treat Google as a tool that is mainly intended for digging up free porn and not looking up any sort of real research.

DRP7
12-05-2007, 12:17 PM
LOL.....obviously you are not aware that the R&D folks at most companies seem to treat Google as a tool that is mainly intended for digging up free porn and not looking up any sort of real research.

So, we should expect some *exciting* pics in the package insert next time?

Bane
12-06-2007, 04:06 PM
Just to drop some random thought, when i looked at vanadyl a few years ago, it was investigated in some pharmaceutical resear4ch as an alternative carrier for insulin in place of Zinc. Research then demonstrated that the vanadium-insulin complex was more succesful at controlling blood glucose levels than the zinc-glucose complex used in insulin injections up to today. However oral vanadium did nothing to help blood glucose levels. In the end they dropped the idea of using it as a carier due to toxicity concerns. Still can't believe they use it to this day

Hm I actually got into the trouble to unbury some of this from my archives. Regarding vanadyl sulfate researchers concluded that if it is effective(high enough dose) it is toxic, if it is not toxic(low dose) it is not effective

BuckeyeMuscle
12-09-2007, 03:46 PM
I'll be quite honest, I haven't read the entire thread, so I'm not sure if this was discussed....but what about BPOV (bis-Picolinate Oxo-Vanadium)?

I know VPX uses it in NO Shotgun, and it will be in their new NO Shotgun V2, and Nutrabolics uses it as well in Deca Stack.

NO HYPE
12-09-2007, 07:01 PM

I'm not really sure.... but I doubt it's much different.

I know VPX uses it in NO Shotgun, and it will be in their new NO Shotgun V2, and Nutrabolics uses it as well in Deca Stack.

I wonder why they bother?

Bane
12-09-2007, 07:33 PM
I'm not really sure.... but I doubt it's much different.

It has much better oral bioavailability and a stronger lipolysis-inhibiting effect due to higher distribution to adipose tissue

I wonder why they bother?

It looks cool on the bottle the advertisement and the write-up while being dirt cheap

DRP7
12-10-2007, 02:01 AM
It has much better oral bioavailability and a stronger lipolysis-inhibiting effect due to higher distribution to adipose tissue

this is great news for all 80 lbs girls who have difficulties to pack on some healthy adipose tissue around their hips.

Bane
12-10-2007, 02:14 AM
this is great news for all 80 lbs girls who have difficulties to pack on some healthy adipose tissue around their hips.

300% better than Mac Donalds

DRP7
12-10-2007, 02:18 AM
300% better than Mac Donalds

I didn't kid (at least not entirely)! I know quite some girls / schoolmates / female collegues who indeed have a very asthenic stature and whatever they do and try, they absolutely cannot gain mass - not even adipose tissue!

but for all other people who ahve rather the opposite problem (that is: to stay lean), any vanadium product would be rather counterproductive.

Bane
12-10-2007, 02:23 AM
I didn't kid (at least not entirely)! I know quite some girls / schoolmates / female collegues who indeed have a very asthenic stature and whatever they do and try, they absolutely cannot gain mass - not even adipose tissue!

but for all other people who ahve rather the opposite problem (that is: to stay lean), any vanadium product would be rather counterproductive.

My cousin had a problem like that, she had a kind of allergy that made her body respond with excessive adrenal and thyroid output.
She responded pretty well to cortisol though

NO HYPE
12-10-2007, 04:52 AM
It has much better oral bioavailability and a stronger lipolysis-inhibiting effect due to higher distribution to adipose tissue

Yay.:D

NO HYPE
12-10-2007, 04:54 AM
I wonder why they bother?

It looks cool on the bottle the advertisement and the write-up while being dirt cheap

I guess I forgot to insert the little green smiley face.

NO HYPE
12-16-2007, 06:23 PM
Methyl esters... Highly toxic, and worthless. (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?p=107321091#post107321091)

Vanity_Gurl
12-17-2007, 02:37 PM
Ingestion: May cause severe gastrointestinal tract irritation with nausea, vomiting and possible burns. May cause liver and kidney damage. May cause central nervous system effects and/or neurological effects. May cause greenish-black tongue discoloration due to deposition of vanadium salts. Ingestion of large amounts may cause an increase in blood pressure.

Dude dont sit there posting all sorts of false crap you know nothing about. It's getting old bro.

Vanity_Gurl
12-17-2007, 02:38 PM
Methyl esters... Highly toxic, and worthless. (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?p=107321091#post107321091)

NO HYPE
12-17-2007, 03:17 PM
Dude dont sit there posting all sorts of false crap you know nothing about. It's getting old bro.

Apostle X
12-17-2007, 03:44 PM

buh-bye! see you in banned camp troll

resurrected
12-17-2007, 04:27 PM
I was bitching about this stuff ages back and no one listened. Same with NO products With germanium. Gald to see someone else sees things as I do

markymark69
12-19-2007, 01:54 PM
Hey,
Have you guys looked at the MSDS sheet for Calcium?!
http://www.sciencestuff.com/msds/C1424.html

Bottom line: read the MSDS for just about anything we consume and its dangerous.
;)

Its funny...everyone is all worried about vanadium. yet think nothing of using artificial sweeteners, eat prepackaged foods that have more chemicals they real ingredients, etc.

Next time you are worried about ingesting toxic anything...take a look at the ingredients of everything you are buying at the grocery store.
:)

terracotta
12-19-2007, 02:10 PM
Hey,
Have you guys looked at the MSDS sheet for Calcium?!
http://www.sciencestuff.com/msds/C1424.html

Bottom line: read the MSDS for just about anything we consume and its dangerous.
;)

Its funny...everyone is all worried about vanadium. yet think nothing of using artificial sweeteners, eat prepackaged foods that have more chemicals they real ingredients, etc.

Next time you are worried about ingesting toxic anything...take a look at the ingredients of everything you are buying at the grocery store.
:)

http://www.hsegroup.com/hse/text/water.htm
:D

markymark69
12-19-2007, 02:17 PM
lol
Terracotta you got me there.....

NO HYPE
12-19-2007, 02:40 PM
Have you guys looked at the MSDS sheet for Calcium? Bottom line: read the MSDS for just about anything we consume and its dangerous. ;)

Comparing an MSDS for calcium.... to vanadium?

Are you serious with this nonsense?

Somehow, it does not surprise me that other people's concerns, amuse you.

yet think nothing of using artificial sweeteners

If you knew anything about artificial sweeteners.... you'd know there's nothing to worry about.

Next time you are worried about ingesting toxic anything...take a look at the ingredients of everything you are buying at the grocery store.

The next time you're at the grocery store.... I want you to find me ANY dietary ingredient that aquires the toxicity of vanadium.:D

NO HYPE
12-19-2007, 04:27 PM
Its funny...everyone is all worried about vanadium. yet think nothing of using artificial sweeteners

Priceless.

NO HYPE
12-19-2007, 04:36 PM
Again, I could careless if vanadium is effective or not. But toxic, is it not.

Vanadium is toxic, and the evidence is irrefutable. Any questions?

resurrected
12-19-2007, 09:45 PM
Vanadium is toxic, and the evidence is irrefutable. Any questions?

Yes I agree, I had this arguement many years back on the older forums, I did prove the toxicity of this garbage.

markymark69
12-20-2007, 10:30 AM
No Hype,

You really need to contact Marian Johnson-Thompson, Director, Education and Biomedical Research Development.
She is the chairwoman of the NIH IRB.

Currently there are 5 human clinic trials where diabetic participants are receiving up to 300mg of vanadium/daily.

According to you, these people are being poisoned. You must act quickly to stop this tragedy.

Her contact information:
Office of the Deputy Director
Tel (919) 541-4265
Fax (919) 541-2583
johnso21@niehs.nih.gov

Anyone that is interested in what the IRB does:

resurrected
12-20-2007, 10:53 AM
From some of my reading, I have found good points and bad points on this product. One says " due to the low absorption rate, levels of vanadyl can become toxic and cause damage to liver, kidneys and other organs.
Yet another will say it can cause sperm reduction in rats, Another claims it may be used for diabetic patients. This vanadyl is in need of further studying.
I myself do not like to use something that : 1 is readily available in our food in trace elements
and 2, the full effects of this has not been completey evaluated and could be toxic.
I guess we wait to see what the verdict is once all these test has been run .

DRP7
12-20-2007, 11:13 AM
Currently there are 5 human clinic trials where diabetic participants are receiving up to 300mg of vanadium/daily.

I see your point. however, Diabetes mellitus is a chronic disease. and to treat it you need drugs that you can apply chronically - over years and decades.
in the light of existing research, it appears highly improbable that a heavy metal that tends to accumulate in body tissues will ever be suited for oral long-term-application,e specially at such high dosages.

Let me quote a little piece from a nice paper that reviews the toxicity of vanadium:

there is a clear consensus in relation to
of vanadium compounds. Although in a recent study on the
effects of vanadium complexes with organic ligands on
glucose metabolism of diabetic rats, it was concluded that
modification of the vanadium species with organic ligands
might decrease the side-effects (gastrointestinal disturbances)
of the element, the tissue accumulation of vanadium was not
determined [30]. It prevents to establish the effects of organic
According to our personal experience, tissue accumulation
of vanadium remains the main concern regarding the potential
use of vanadium compounds for their insulin-potentiating
effects. Two organs with longer half-life, spleen and testes,
would tend to accumulate vanadium over time, which might
be related with the vanadium-induced immunotoxic and
reproductive effects. It should be taken into account that
diabetes mellitus is a chronic disease which requires a chronic
treatment for life independently on the specific therapy
187
could be unavoidable. On the other hand, vanadium is also
a potential developmental and behavioral toxicant, and
therefore it could not be used during the periods of pregnancy
and lactation. Moreover, the lack of data about the carcinogenic
potential is another important concern about long-term
effects of vanadium ions on several enzymes, including
sodium and potassium ATP-phosphatase are also of concern.
Taking into account the toxic effects that could derive from
the chronic use of vanadium, together with the restrictions
in its use during gestation, as well as the questions raised by
the unavoidable long-term administration, we conclude that
according to the important number of questions still unsolved,
the use of vanadium compounds in diabetic patients should
be avoided.

quoted from:

Domingo J, 2000, Molecular and Cellular Biochemistry; Volume 203, Numbers 1-2 / Januar 2000; 185-187

here is another snippet that shows some important pharmacokinetic data of different Vanadium preparations:

The proposed use of vanadium compounds as chronic treatment alternatives for diabetes [132], [133], [134], [135], [136], [137] and [138], with anticipated administration over many years, necessitated an improved understanding of these compounds’ absorption, distribution and excretion patterns. BMOV, and its ethylmaltol analog, bis(ethylmaltolato)oxovanadium(IV), BEOV, (a.k.a. KP102) were at the forefront of these ADME studies.

The carrier-added, direct comparison study between 48V-BMOV and 48VOSO4 [104] demonstrated a similar pattern of biodistribution to that of inorganic vanadium salts observed earlier [33], [97], [98], [139], [140] and [141], especially with regard to the order of relative accumulation, with bone > kidney > liver. A long half-life of elimination (>10 d for 48V in bone after a one-time 10 μM dose by oral gavage in rats) and low level of absorption (with bone retaining 0.1% of an oral dose/g tissue 24 h after an oral dose of VOSO4), were corroborated for VOSO4 in the carrier added study [104], and shown to be enhanced by BMOV, which had a two-fold longer half-life of elimination from bone. A clear advantage of BMOV over VOSO4 was that uptake of 48V was two to three times greater in most tissues 24 h after an oral dose equivalent to approximately 10 μmol vanadium.

These are pretty impressive numbers: the elimination half time (in bone tissue) of Vanadium is longer than 10 days after a single, small oral dose. and the values for the complexed Vanadium were two-fold longer than that! and now imagine what will happen with tissue-vanadium levels when you start to take vanadium 3 times per day, every day, for many weeks and months!!!

This property of Vanadium to accumulate in body tissues has two consequences for its potential therapeutic use:

1. you must reduce your daily dose of Vanadium to such low levels, that your steady-state V-concentration in such tissues (liver, spleen etc.) always stays below critical, toxic thresholds. Most likely, such low doses of Vanadium will not suffice to have any significant effect on diabetes parameters.

2. you must somehow block the accumulation of Vanadium in body tissues and / or force its excretion from the body. this is something that could be done with chelating agents. however, whether such an approach could ever work is more than questionable.

markymark69
12-20-2007, 11:23 AM
Artificial sweeteners:

Two reasons I mentioned that is because of your line of attack:
1) citing studies concluding vanadium is toxic. However those studies were all human in vitro or rat in vivo.

Same thing with sweeteners: All the studies showing toxicity were studies used rat in vivo or human in vivo.
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/artificial-sweeteners

Before my wife took a job in private industry she worked for several research labs. The last lab she worked worked on Myotonic Dystrophy. The genetic cause of the disease was discovered in 1992. But they do not know or understand the disease mechanisms that lead to pathology.

Time and again, various trials in rats exhibited positive or negative results. Once those trials moved to human trials the results were not the same.
It is extremely difficult to extrapolate the results of in vivo rat studies to say the same thing will occur in

2) The reason I find the uproar of vanadium amusing, is most people on here eat prepackaged food that are full of chemicals. Almost no studies have been done on the cumulative effect of those chemicals. Why? Because under FDA regulations a food company can put pretty much any chemical they want into a product. The only thing they are required to do is establish the fact that no studies have been completed that show contraindications in humans for that particular chemical.
So on a daily basis, you go to the grocery store, you buy prepackaged food and consume an item that has 20 ingredients that you have no clue about the cumulative effects on your body.

So yes..I find that amusing.
:)

markymark69
12-20-2007, 11:32 AM
Dr. P.

In another thread, I indicated that I do not take supplements other than a multivitamin.

My personal opinion is that supplements are a waste of money. I've been able to increase size, maintain low body fat without supplements and I am certainly not a mesomorph.

I commented on this thread and the other other after doing a medline search and finding only in vivo rat studies.

Am I going to consume 70-300mg of vanadium? Hell no....wait let me go look at what is in that multi-vitamin... ;)

10 mcg

gjohnson5
12-20-2007, 11:35 AM
This point is still irrelevant.
It means that supplement companies AND food manufacturers need to eliminate vanadium from their products.

And LOL @ assuming people posting on this thread are not aware of the dangers in processed foods. It's no different with supplements

2) The reason I find the uproar of vanadium amusing, is most people on here eat prepackaged food that are full of chemicals. Almost no studies have been done on the cumulative effect of those chemicals. Why? Because under FDA regulations a food company can put pretty much any chemical they want into a product. The only thing they are required to do is establish the fact that no studies have been completed that show contraindications in humans for that particular chemical.
So on a daily basis, you go to the grocery store, you buy prepackaged food and consume an item that has 20 ingredients that you have no clue about the cumulative effects on your body.

So yes..I find that amusing.
:)

GeneGnomeX
12-20-2007, 11:52 AM
2) The reason I find the uproar of vanadium amusing, is most people on here eat prepackaged food that are full of chemicals. Almost no studies have been done on the cumulative effect of those chemicals. Why? Because under FDA regulations a food company can put pretty much any chemical they want into a product. The only thing they are required to do is establish the fact that no studies have been completed that show contraindications in humans for that particular chemical.
So on a daily basis, you go to the grocery store, you buy prepackaged food and consume an item that has 20 ingredients that you have no clue about the cumulative effects on your body.

So yes..I find that amusing.
:)

This thread isn't about those chemicals it is about vanadium. Your argument is illogical and at the moment we don't have enough data as strong as for vanadium afaik but there is on vanadium and there are supplements with quite a bit in them so it is worth it to discuss. Especially when there is no reason to put it in there.

You can't compare rats to humans for every substance, no. But sometimes the effects ARE the same in both. Are you going to chance it on generalizing for everything?

markymark69
12-20-2007, 11:53 AM
The next time you're at the grocery store.... I want you to find me ANY dietary ingredient that aquires the toxicity of vanadium.:D

Interesting challenge. One that is difficult to meet considering there are relatively few studies on chronic usage of common food additives.
Take Ferrous gluconate dihydrate a food coloring used in quite a few foods. See if you can find one study on chronic ingestion of it.
Disodium Guanylate & Disodium Inosinate another example. no studies.

Even worse, most of these food additives are manufactured in China with little or no oversight from regulatory agencies.

However, there is one VERY common food additive that is a known carcinogen...in rats. ;)

GeneGnomeX
12-20-2007, 11:56 AM
Interesting challenge. One that is difficult to meet considering there are relatively few studies on chronic usage of common food additives.
Take Ferrous gluconate dihydrate a food coloring used in quite a few foods. See if you can find one study on chronic ingestion of it.
Disodium Guanylate & Disodium Inosinate another example. no studies.

Even worse, most of these food additives are manufactured in China with little or no oversight from regulatory agencies.

However, there is one VERY common food additive that is a known carcinogen...in rats. ;)

DRP7
12-20-2007, 12:05 PM
Artificial sweeteners:

Two reasons I mentioned that is because of your line of attack:
1) citing studies concluding vanadium is toxic. However those studies were all human in vitro or rat in vivo.

Same thing with sweeteners: All the studies showing toxicity were studies used rat in vivo or human in vivo.
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/artificial-sweeteners

Before my wife took a job in private industry she worked for several research labs. The last lab she worked worked on Myotonic Dystrophy. The genetic cause of the disease was discovered in 1992. But they do not know or understand the disease mechanisms that lead to pathology.

Time and again, various trials in rats exhibited positive or negative results. Once those trials moved to human trials the results were not the same.
It is extremely difficult to extrapolate the results of in vivo rat studies to say the same thing will occur in

2) The reason I find the uproar of vanadium amusing, is most people on here eat prepackaged food that are full of chemicals. Almost no studies have been done on the cumulative effect of those chemicals. Why? Because under FDA regulations a food company can put pretty much any chemical they want into a product. The only thing they are required to do is establish the fact that no studies have been completed that show contraindications in humans for that particular chemical.
So on a daily basis, you go to the grocery store, you buy prepackaged food and consume an item that has 20 ingredients that you have no clue about the cumulative effects on your body.

So yes..I find that amusing.
:)

I fully agree with all of your statements.

I think you are mostly critisizing the apparent "panic" on vanadium and you believe that such strong feelings are probably not appropriate because most people have no obviously bad emotions when consuming foods that contain chemicals. right?

But even if there is no rational 'balance' between the feelings on vanandium and the feelings on food preservatives, supplements that contain large doses of vanadium are ususally consumed by people who purposefully want to improve their health, appearance and performance (=bodybuilders, fitness-enthusiasts etc.). I think that many of such people would be very pissed when they find out that just this 'healthy' supplement on that they have spent so much money may be potentially harmful under certain conditions.

another problem is the awareness of the supplement industry. most companies are 1-5 men companies. in many cases such small companies don't have the ressources to consult professional nutritionists, chemists or physicians etc in order to find out whether a certain ingredient may be 'problematic' or not. they just put stuff into their products that are popular and that people believe in because some "authority in their local gym" said that this stuff is good.

I am absolutely sure that most - if not all - of the companies that put large quantities of vanadium into their supplements are absolutely not aware of all the implications that come with vanadium: that it probably doesn'T really work in healthy people with good insulin-sensitivity, that it may accumulate in the body, that it potentially can block amino acid uptake in muscle cells etc.

If threads like this can contribute just a little bit to increase the public awareness of both, supplement makers and supplement consumers - about all these potential problems, then they have fulfilled their purpose.

ElMariachi
12-20-2007, 01:08 PM
another problem is the awareness of the supplement industry. most companies are 1-5 men companies. in many cases such small companies don't have the ressources to consult professional nutritionists, chemists or physicians etc in order to find out whether a certain ingredient may be 'problematic' or not. they just put stuff into their products that are popular and that people believe in because some "authority in their local gym" said that this stuff is good.

Dr P just summed up a large portion of the supplement industry in a nutshell. Bravo! The lines above should be stickied on every bodybuilding/supplement forum on the internet.

NO HYPE
12-20-2007, 01:56 PM
No Hype,

You really need to contact Marian Johnson-Thompson, Director, Education and Biomedical Research Development.
She is the chairwoman of the NIH IRB.

Currently there are 5 human clinic trials where diabetic participants are receiving up to 300mg of vanadium/daily.

According to you, these people are being poisoned. You must act quickly to stop this tragedy.

The Abomination
12-20-2007, 02:11 PM
I can't believe VS is still around...my first experience of one week on the crap and feeling like crap was enough for me.

NO HYPE
12-20-2007, 02:16 PM
I can't believe VS is still around...my first experience of one week on the crap and feeling like crap was enough for me.

BUT DON'T WORRY... MARKY MARK SAYS IT'S OK!:D

I myself have experienced toxicity off this mineral. I was using ON VS5000, and after following the directions began experiencing flu and depression-like symptoms. One of my friends had his tongue turn blue after 3 months on this crap.

NO HYPE
12-20-2007, 02:28 PM
Two reasons I mentioned that is because of your line of attack: citing studies concluding vanadium is toxic.

There is no "attack".... and vanadium IS toxic.

However those studies were all human in vitro or rat in vivo.

Wrong.

Maybe you should try reading the entire thread first.... or maybe you should just stop seeing things, only as you'd like them to be.

Exposure to excessive vanadium occurs in some occupations and with consumption of some dietary regimens for weight reduction and body building. Because vanadium is vasoactive, individuals exposed to excessive vanadium may develop adverse vascular effects. We have previously shown that vanadyl sulfate causes acute pulmonary vasoconstriction, which could be attributed in part to inhibition of nitric oxide production. Exposure to excessive vanadium may contribute to pulmonary vascular diseases.

Ingestion: May cause severe gastrointestinal tract irritation with nausea, vomiting and possible burns. May cause liver and kidney damage. May cause central nervous system effects and/or neurological effects. May cause greenish-black tongue discoloration due to deposition of vanadium salts. Ingestion of large amounts may cause an increase in blood pressure.

Consistently observed toxic effects include depressed growth, elevated organ vanadium, diarrhea, and cramps were were observed in humans given 13.5 mg for 2 months followed by 22.5 mg for 5 months. In another study, signs of toxicity were observed on intakes of 4.5-18 mg vanadium/day in the form of vanadyl sulfate.(55)

Hematological and biochemical alterations, loss of body weight, nephrotoxicity, immunotoxicity, reproductive and developmental toxicity, and behavioral toxicity have been reported to occur following exposure to vanadium compounds. Moreover, vanadium also has a mitogenic activity affecting the distribution of chromosomes during mitosis and inducing aneuploidy-related end points.

The tolerable upper intake level for vanadium in adults has been set at 1.8 mg. [22]

Studies in humans and animals suggest that excess vanadium is toxic; furthermore, vanadium accumulation may occur if relatively small excess doses are taken for a prolonged time. [18,23-25]

In view of a potential vanadium nephrotoxicity a therapeutic application of vanadium compounds needs a critical re-evaluation.

people who are regularly exposed to high amount of metals, e.g., vanadium contained in certain dietary and musclebuilding regimens, may have increased risk for vascular diseases.

NO HYPE
12-20-2007, 02:32 PM
Before my wife took a job in private industry she worked for several research labs.

Could you possibly get through a thread WITHOUT bragging about what you and your wife do for a living.... let's stay on topic, shall we?.

NO HYPE
12-20-2007, 02:51 PM
According to you, these people are being poisoned. You must act quickly to stop this tragedy.

Negged.

NO HYPE
12-20-2007, 09:54 PM
"The tolerable upper intake level for vanadium in adults has been set at 1.8 mg."

Optimal Nutrients Vanadyl Sulfate = 150 mg/day

"May cause central nervous system effects and/or neurological effects."

"40% exhibited green tongues"

after following the directions began experiencing flu and depression-like symptoms. One of my friends had his tongue turn blue after 3 months on this crap.

markymark69
12-20-2007, 11:12 PM

I guess all of NIH and every single IRB that has been in existence is also ignorant.

If you are right....
(repeated again since you are sidestepping)
You really need to contact Marian Johnson-Thompson, Director, Education and Biomedical Research Development.
She is the chairwoman of the NIH IRB.
Currently there are 5 human clinic trials where diabetic participants are receiving up to 300mg of vanadium/daily.

According to you, these people are being poisoned. You must act quickly to stop this tragedy.

Her contact information:
Office of the Deputy Director
Tel (919) 541-4265
Fax (919) 541-2583
johnso21@niehs.nih.gov
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you truly are right...then why dont you contact Ms. Johnson-Thompson and point out the errors of the IRB for allowing human clinical trials to continue?

After all the evidence you presented is overwhelming and irrefutable....correct?

Do you realize how famous you could be? The significance of a single person on a bodybuilding blog proving an NIH IRB has been negligent in allowing clinical trials, where particpants are ingesting 300mg/daily....when you say "The tolerable upper intake level for vanadium in adults has been set at 1.8 mg.", is off the charts. It would send shockwaves throughout the scientific community.

Not only would you be famous, but think about it, every trial lawyer in the country would hire you as an expert witness....
:)

markymark69
12-20-2007, 11:15 PM
Could you possibly get through a thread WITHOUT bragging about what you and your wife do for a living.... let's stay on topic, shall we?.

Hmmm, never mentioned what I did for a living. I mentioned what my wife did because her experience in mouse and rat models was relevant to the discussion.
If you interpret that as 'bragging'..all I can say is...perhaps you are taking this discussion a wee bit too seriously.

NO HYPE
12-21-2007, 04:34 AM
Hmmm, never mentioned what I did for a living.

Oh.... that must of been one of the other various threads where you were discussing what you and your wife do.

I mentioned what my wife did because her experience in mouse and rat models was relevant to the discussion.
If you interpret that as 'bragging'..all I can say is...perhaps you are taking this discussion a wee bit too seriously.

Do you really think I got this impression out of nowhere?

Just take a look at your post history, public profile, and the way you belittle other people's genuine concerns.... and it is not hard to see that you are high on yourself. Now I am finished with this portion of the conversation, as it has nothing to do with your warped sense of reality.

NO HYPE
12-21-2007, 04:40 AM
If you are right....
(repeated again since you are sidestepping)

If I'm right?....

You act as though vanadium's toxicity is merely a figment of my imagination (DESPITE THE TRUTH THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN DISPLAYED).

You are the only one sidestepping.

NO HYPE
12-21-2007, 05:11 AM
I guess all of NIH and every single IRB that has been in existence is also ignorant.

Alright everybody, I guess everything I've presented herein.... is merely a lie.:(

markymark for MOD.:D

gjohnson5
12-21-2007, 06:19 AM
Gosh , let's take a look at the MSDS for vanadium in comparison to your example of calcium
http://www.sciencestuff.com/msds/C2952.html

Take a look at the health hazard rating and tell me that calcium and vanadium are in the same catagory in terms of health hazards?

I see your point , but your comparing a heath hazard 1 to a health hazard 3 and saying don't take calcium.... It's almost as ridiculous as the water example

Hey,
Have you guys looked at the MSDS sheet for Calcium?!
http://www.sciencestuff.com/msds/C1424.html

Bottom line: read the MSDS for just about anything we consume and its dangerous.
;)

Its funny...everyone is all worried about vanadium. yet think nothing of using artificial sweeteners, eat prepackaged foods that have more chemicals they real ingredients, etc.

Next time you are worried about ingesting toxic anything...take a look at the ingredients of everything you are buying at the grocery store.
:)

markymark69
12-21-2007, 07:34 AM
Gosh , let's take a look at the MSDS for vanadium in comparison to your example of calcium
http://www.sciencestuff.com/msds/C2952.html

Take a look at the health hazard rating and tell me that calcium and vanadium are in the same catagory in terms of health hazards?

I see your point , but your comparing a heath hazard 1 to a health hazard 3 and saying don't take calcium.... It's almost as ridiculous as the water example
G,
I was being facetious when I compared calcium to vanadium. I was pointing out that from reading the MSDS for just about any substance we consume one could draw the conclusion that something is toxic.

markymark69
12-21-2007, 07:49 AM
If I'm right?....

You act as though vanadium's toxicity is merely a figment of my imagination (DESPITE THE TRUTH THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN DISPLAYED).

You are the only one sidestepping.

Now call the head of the NIH IRB to warn them of the danger to the patients participating in on-going trials.

Additionally call the FDA Office of Nutritional Products, Labeling, and Dietary Supplements. Its their job to regulate supplements.
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/onplds.html
Here are the steps in filing a complaint:
http://www.fda.gov/opacom/backgrounders/problem.html
Direct contact #'s:
http://www.fda.gov/opacom/backgrounders/complain.html

Its your chance to become famous and quite possibly wealthy.

If nothing else, you will prevent others from being poisoned.

Lets us know what they tell you.

;)

gjohnson5
12-21-2007, 11:44 AM
I don't know if many of you have ever worked with the gov't but I stopped due to these very issues. Calling the gov't or being on the inside and saying this is wrong and that is wrong is as futile as talking to a brick wall trying to get the wall to listen. State and Fed gov't have a hierarchy far more busy then any commercial company. What agendas that are pursued and submitted go through that heir achy. The fact is the Fed gov't often sides with big businesses even in legal cases is often due to lobbying. If a commercial company wants to use vanadium due to it being cheaper then another chemical which is not toxic then they will use production costs as their reasoning. As we've also seen commercial companies often times pay for studies to be ran (with a bias of course) on a certain outcome. A commercial company may have paid a University to do an animal study that had favorable results... I wouldn't be surprised that a Diabetes treatment with a dose of vanadium is being studied. Hence the clinical trials. Commercial and Pharmaceutical companies definitely have big money to back up their reasoning. I wouldn't be surprised this is why the NIH are doing the clinical trials in the first place.

You can call her , but I doubt if anything productive will come out of it. As long as you have read the evidence and are removing vanadium from your diet and asking it to be removed from nutritional supplements via this forum, I think that's all that can be done at this point

Now call the head of the NIH IRB to warn them of the danger to the patients participating in on-going trials.

Additionally call the FDA Office of Nutritional Products, Labeling, and Dietary Supplements. Its their job to regulate supplements.
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/onplds.html
Here are the steps in filing a complaint:
http://www.fda.gov/opacom/backgrounders/problem.html
Direct contact #'s:
http://www.fda.gov/opacom/backgrounders/complain.html

Its your chance to become famous and quite possibly wealthy.

If nothing else, you will prevent others from being poisoned.

Lets us know what they tell you.

;)

Bane
12-21-2007, 02:35 PM
To drop yet another random thought,
patients in experimental drug trials that expirienced severe health problems aren't an unknown thing.
They either get paid well or are hopeless to accept such risks

NO HYPE
12-21-2007, 04:12 PM

I never stated that vanadium is "extremely" toxic. So are you done altering the truth to your liking.... YET?:D

You can continue to deny the in-vivo, human evidence that has been presented in this thread, or you can continue to only see things from markymark's point of view, either way.... it won't change vanadium's toxicity.

NO HYPE
12-21-2007, 04:18 PM
Its your chance to become famous and quite possibly wealthy.

Forget the fame and wealth.... I just wanna be like you markymark.

NO HYPE
12-21-2007, 09:33 PM
I was being facetious when I compared calcium to vanadium.

Really?.... and to think we all took you seriously! You're such a silly goose.

I was pointing out that from reading the MSDS for just about any substance we consume one could draw the conclusion that something is toxic.

Well thankfully, most of us here can tell the difference between an MSDS that actually applies to the issue of chronically exposed toxicity.... and one that does not.:DBye now.

markymark69
12-21-2007, 10:50 PM
I never stated that vanadium is "extremely" toxic. So are you done altering the truth to your liking.... YET?:D

You can continue to deny the in-vivo, human evidence that has been presented in this thread, or you can continue to only see things from markymark's point of view, either way.... it won't change vanadium's toxicity.

Toxic, extremely toxic. We all make mistakes. Just like you said I stated what I did for a living in another thread. We are arguing semantics.

You stated in the beginning of this thread that you wanted to inform people that vanadium was toxic.

Call...its free. Email....its free.

I already said I agree with you. I just want you to call the FDA and the NIH IRB. Save others that dont read BB.com

Post what they say. It would educate the people on the forums.

Heck, you just might end up on Dateline, 20/20 & 60 mins.

I can hear Stone Phillips right now..."Vanadium...what is it? Why is it in so many products? Tonight we interview a man who is about to bring the world crashing down on the FDA and the NIH. He claims vanadium is toxic over 1.8mg/day...yet mysteriously the FDA allows 30+mg/day and the NIH allows 300mg/day..."

I guess it comes down to this: ...why don't you call or email?
;)

NO HYPE
12-21-2007, 10:56 PM
He claims vanadium is toxic over 1.8mg/day

Wrong.

NO HYPE
12-21-2007, 10:57 PM
Toxic, extremely toxic. We all make mistakes.

Even you make mistakes markymark?

NO HYPE
12-21-2007, 11:08 PM
"I can hear Stone Phillips right now..."Vanadium...what is it? Why is it in so many products? Tonight we interview a man who is about to bring the world crashing down on the FDA and the NIH. He claims vanadium is toxic over 1.8mg/day...yet mysteriously the FDA allows 30+mg/day and the NIH allows 300mg/day..."

Thank you for your priceless contribution. This is exactly the guy I suspected you to be, upon entering into this thread.

Once again, your ignorance speaks volumes.

godjoey
12-29-2007, 12:42 AM
Have taken Vanadyl sulfate cycled on and off since I was 17. I'm 32 years old now and I have to say I have never had any of those symptoms. I took it years before it was even thought of being put into other supplements.

Bricker labs 10mg, then sportpharma 7.5mg high absorption was the best 2 to 3 times a day.

15 year experiment I had no problems.

For the people who didn't read the bottle... eat with carbs you won't feel like crap your muscles get harder and more vascularity comes out. Cheap product that works for me.

NO HYPE
12-29-2007, 04:29 AM
Have taken Vanadyl sulfate cycled on and off since I was 17. I'm 32 years old now and I have to say I have never had any of those symptoms.

Well that's nice, but as indicated previously.... others have experienced symptoms from the use of vanadyl sulphate, and only after a short time.

15 year experiment I had no problems.

Cheap product that works for me.

So what did it do for you? Seriously, if the results were that great.... vanadyl would be used like creatine.

For those who might be considering it, do you feel that the results are worth overlooking vanadyl's toxicity (which is not a matter of opinion)?

NO HYPE
12-29-2007, 09:02 AM
Vanadium: A review of the reproductive and developmental toxicity

godjoey
12-29-2007, 12:38 PM
Ok I guess I won't hold back facts.

Considering I have been on this stuff well well longer than anyone in this entire thread.

I think it might have been an underlying prior existing problem if you end up with any problems taking this supplement.

Fact is I have taken well over 1000 pills of this stuff my arms went from 17"s to 21"s. Vanadyl taken along with Creatine helps keep prolonged pumps also keeping creatine inside the muscle longer.

EAS saw that thats why they brought out V2G to go along with their Flagship Creatine product.

I think some of you put too much into reading and opinion than just strap on the balls and experiment yourselves.... Maybe thats why alot of people lack gains they spend too much time scared out of their minds reading condescending warnings that have no experimentation to back anything up.

Good luck with that... =) Happy Holidays
3 products that are tried and true. For the last 12-15 years Creatine, Vanadyl sulfate "bricker labs", and any protein shake I like myoplex.

Remember kids if you have a history of problems in your family or haven't been checked out by a doctor or monitored by someone a little bit smarter than you...... Don't take anything just eat your veggies and meat and workout.

Went from 8" arms to 21" naturally take your lack of studies on supplements and disregard. "high on opinion and no facts"

NO HYPE
12-29-2007, 01:03 PM
keeping creatine inside the muscle longer.

Does it really?:D

NO HYPE
12-29-2007, 01:08 PM
Fact is I have taken well over 1000 pills of this stuff my arms went from 17"s to 21"s.

godjoey
12-29-2007, 01:16 PM
Now I get it heh jokes on me..... I didn't realize you are forum trolling....

It would be foolish to think Vanadyl didn't help in my gains at all.

Wait no..... you are right vanadyl does not work at all, the geeky guys who put out the warnings are 100% right. DO NOT TAKE THIS SUPPLEMENT ;).

NO HYPE
12-29-2007, 01:22 PM
It would be foolish to think Vanadyl didn't help in my gains at all.

I never implied that vanadyl did nothing to assist your gains (that's good that you have found use for it).... your statement seemed to exaggerate the truth.

In any case, your experience with VS, does not change the observed toxicity, which simply cannot be denied.

NO HYPE
12-29-2007, 06:36 PM
Ok I guess I won't hold back facts.

Considering I have been on this stuff well well longer than anyone in this entire thread.

I think it might have been an underlying prior existing problem if you end up with any problems taking this supplement.

Fact is I have taken well over 1000 pills of this stuff my arms went from 17"s to 21"s. Vanadyl taken along with Creatine helps keep prolonged pumps also keeping creatine inside the muscle longer.

EAS saw that thats why they brought out V2G to go along with their Flagship Creatine product.

I think some of you put too much into reading and opinion than just strap on the balls and experiment yourselves.... Maybe thats why alot of people lack gains they spend too much time scared out of their minds reading condescending warnings that have no experimentation to back anything up.

Good luck with that... =) Happy Holidays
3 products that are tried and true. For the last 12-15 years Creatine, Vanadyl sulfate "bricker labs", and any protein shake I like myoplex.

Remember kids if you have a history of problems in your family or haven't been checked out by a doctor or monitored by someone a little bit smarter than you...... Don't take anything just eat your veggies and meat and workout.

Went from 8" arms to 21" naturally take your lack of studies on supplements and disregard. "high on opinion and no facts"

Strap-on balls?:D