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BernieD
07-13-2005, 06:45 PM
Here's an article that I've alluded to a few times that I had been working on. It's finally finished. I hope you like the final product. If you have any suggestions or comments, please let me know. I'd be happy to hear constructive criticisms on the article. My goal with this article was to make a single body of text that contained enough information for people to be busy with for awhile. I hope that people like it enough that the next time someone posts a thread asking about a shoulder injury, that they will get linked to this thread. I have tried to cover a lot of material (not just "OK, here's some RC exercises, now go do them" and that's it), and I hope you get something out of it. Thanks in advance for reading this article--I put a lot of time into it, so I hope you like it.

BernieD
07-13-2005, 06:47 PM
Shoulder Rehabilitation: Tips, Exercises and Routines

This article contains the following sections:

1: Introduction to Rotator Cuff

2: Stretches

3: Exercises

4: A sample routine

5: Exercises to be wary of

6: How to do certain exercises better

7: Further Reading

8: Final Thoughts


Section 1: Introduction

First off, let me explain something. I hesitate to call this a ďcompleteĒ thread on shoulder injuries, as it is virtually impossible to cover everything. My hope is if you have a shoulder injury (or even if you donít), that you will learn some valuable tips on how to rehab your shoulder and keep it healthy, what exercises to avoid, and how to do certain exercises better to minimize stress on the shoulders. But please keep in mind that you need to be careful doing any of these exercises. If you are in a lot of pain, then you should probably be going to a doctor or chiropractor. I cannot diagnose you. It may be your RC, it may be your AC. But if your shoulder has been a nagging injury (like it was for me) or if you just want to know how to take care of your shoulder better, then look no further.

As for me, I had a nagging RC injury for months and months. I trained through it (stupidly enough) and just went a little lighter on the weights. While my shoulder didnít really get any worse, it didnít get any better, either. So finally I decided to take action and really work on rehabbing my shoulder (or shoulders, I should sayÖI had impingement in both!)

Training the RC is extremely important for lifting. It gets used in most upper body exercises (even in tricep and bicep exercises to a certain extent) and constantly has to handle a lot of stress. If you keep it strong and healthy though, you can lift for a long time with no problems. I will not go into a detailed explanation of shoulder anatomy, as this is not the purpose of this article, but if you want more information on that then look HERE ( http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kurilla6.htm).

An obvious question becomes, how do I know if I even have an injured shoulder? If you have any pain, then thereís obviously something wrong. But there are other telltale signs, such as tenderness in the shoulder when you press on it, pain when lifting it overhead or to the side (i.e. lateral raise) or a limited Range Of Motion (ROM).

Hereís also a quick, easy test to try with which you can evaluate your shoulders. Stand facing a mirror, hands at your sides. If you can only see your thumbs and index fingers, then your posture is fine. If you can see your ring finger or even your whole palm, then your shoulders are out of whack. With the following exercises, your posture and your shoulders-hunched-forward look will improve.

According to a recent article in Menís Health (yes, Iím referencing that magazine, donít laugh ;)) shoulder impingement is the second most common sports injury behind a neck pull, so that will not only tell you how prevalent it is but then also how important it is to not be someone who adds to these statistics.

If you think and/or know that you have an AC injury, Iíd recommend searching for posts by ďNainoaĒ on this board, he knows a lot of information about AC injuries. If it hurts to do overhead presses, then it is more likely an AC injury rather than an RC injury.

Well, that about does it for the intro, now letís get down to business!

Section 2: Stretches

In case you didnít already know, stretching is very important in lifting. Without it, you have a higher chance of injury (and who wouldnít want to avoid that?) If you currently have shoulder problems, do them cautiously. You should feel a stretch when doing this, but not pain. Try holding the stretch for 15 seconds. Iíd recommend doing them before and after every workout (even lower body work; squats place some stress on the shoulders as well).

Some great shoulder stretches are explained HERE (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/likness22.htm) (Go to the very bottom of the page).

Another great stretch is to bend your elbow so your forearm and upper arm create a 90 degree angle. Keeping this position, put your arm behind your back, palm facing away from you. The higher up you place your hand on your back, the greater the stretch. Experiment and see what position is comfortable for you. This is a great stretch thatís easy to do, and can be done in public without it looking awkward (I do these when Iím talking to someone all the time, although usually just when Iím sitting down).


Section 3: Exercises

Well, here we go. I will make a list of the best RC exercises that I know of, and in the next section I will post a sample routine.

First off, the ďBroomstick stretchĒ from the infamous Dante AKA Doggcrapp over at http://www.intens************

This exercise was extremely vital for rehabbing my shoulder. It increased my ROM, stopped any clicking, and was well, just plain awesome. I highly recommend doing this. (I do it everyday, except for on the same day of my chest workout and my shoulder workout, 40-50 repetitions). As explained in the thread, you will need a long broomstick (about 6-7 feet long) for it to be effective. A towel or anything else just wonít cut it. When starting off, first try 25 repetitions, then slowly work your way up to 50. By the time you get there, your shoulders will feel a lot better and a lot more flexible, whether you had a shoulder problem or not. In case you havenít already noticed, I absolutely swear by this exercise. Read about it HERE (http://www.intens************/showthread.php?t=6997&page=1&pp=25)


Internal and External Rotations

These are another must for working the RC. If you donít have access to a cable pulley machine, you can try them with dumbbells (as explained HERE (http://www.thetrainingstationinc.com/rotator-cuff-exercises.html)), but in my personal opinion dumbbells donít work as well. Why? Doing them on a cable pulley allows you to keep constant tension in your shoulder, and with a cable I feel it is a lot easier to control the motion with strict, strict form (which of course is always important).

View a video of Internal rotations url=http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Subscapularis/CBInternalRotation.html]HERE/url]

Personally, this isnít my favorite representation of the exercise. I think it is more effective to do it standing up, but to each their own I guess. Your shoulder should act as a hinge. Your elbow should be right on your ribs and should NOT leave your side. The key with internal (and external rotations) is very low weight and very high reps. When I was rehabbing my shoulder (and even now) I never go higher than 10 or 15 pounds (if youíre doing these with dumbbells, try 5 pounds first). The point of training the RC isnít a lot of weight. The point is to increase blood flow to the area and increase flexibility and ROM. The other important point is high reps. I usually do 2-3 sets of 30-50 reps. Doing that many reps will do wonders for your RC, trust me!

Here are some pics on how to do external rotations (http://www.bullz-eye.com/furci/2004/exercise_of_month/external_rotation.htm)

Again, I recommend 10-15 pounds and 30-50 reps. The 2nd exercise shown there is slightly similar to the Cuban Rotation, explained next.

The Cuban Rotation:

View the exercise HERE (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/exercise3/cubanrotations.htm)

This is another great exercise to improve your external rotation. For this one, go very light weight (I cannot stress this enough, working your RC is not about using a lot of weight!). For many a barbell may be too much weight when starting out. I used one of those pre-fitted EZ bars at my gym, only 25 pounds. Again, you donít need a lot of weight. Make sure your form is strict and controlled. Shoot for about 10-12 reps.


Scapular Retraction:

The Start: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/likness22g.jpg
The Finish: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/likness22h.jpg

This is a great exercise for your shoulder blades.. This will help you if you have rounded shoulders, as it works in pulling the shoulders back so that theyíre in a more natural position. While this does not directly target the RC per se, I still found it to be a great exercise that worked really well. Again, use light weights anywhere between 5-20 pound dumbbells when you first try it. Shoot for about 10-15 reps and concentrate on really squeezing your shoulder blades together. If you go to heavy, you wonít be able to do this and youíll compromise your form, which is always a no-no.

The Can Opener

I'm not sure of the actual name of this exercise, but I call it "The Can Opener" for lack of a better term. Check it out HERE (Exercise #4) (http://www.thetrainingstationinc.com/rotator-cuff-exercises.html).

Make sure to do it with a light weight and slow, controlled reps.

Other exercises:

http://www.ncsf.org/tools/video.aspx#9

This website has a bunch of rotator cuff exercises. I have tried a bunch of them, and personally I donít feel that they did much for me, but of course Iím not like everybody else, so if you try them and you like them, then by all means use them. I think a better alternative to some of these is doing the rotations lying on your side, rather than on your back.

Note: The exercises I have outlined are by no means the only RC exercises. They are some of the most common ones though (especially the internal and external rotations) and they are what worked best for me (but again, I canít speak for everyone).

BernieD
07-13-2005, 06:48 PM
Section 4: A Sample Routine

The following is a sample routine for the aforementioned exercises. Ideally you would do them before every upper body workout. But then again, this routine can also be time-consuming, so if you want, you could limit the routine to just internal rotation and then external rotation or Cuban rotation.

Exercise 1: Internal Rotation on a cable pulley machine (do both arms together at the same time) or with dumbbells (but again, cables are best)

2-3 sets, 30-50 reps, 10-15 pounds (20-25 reps and 5-10 pounds for dumbbells)

Exercise 2: External Rotation on a cable pulley machine or with dumbbells

2-3 sets, 30-50 reps, 10-15 pounds (20-25 reps and 5-10 pounds for dumbbells)

Exercise 3: Cuban Rotation

2-3 sets, 10-12 reps, start off somewhere between a 15 pound to 40 pound bar and go from there

Exercise 4: Scapular Retraction

2-3 sets, 10-15 reps, try dumbbells anywhere between 5-20 pounds and go up from there. Remember to really squeeze those shoulder blades



Section 5: Exercises to be wary of

This section of the article will probably be very controversial. I will give a list of exercises that I think should not be done at all (for someone with healthy or bad shoulders) and some that should be avoided if you have shoulder problems (granted, the best thing is to not be lifting at all if you have a bad shoulder, but if it is only minor and nagging, it is still very common to see guys just working through it). Ultimately, you have to be the judge. But rememberójust because the exercise doesnít cause pain, does not mean it canít cause problems in the long run. Here are some of my suggestions:

1) Upright Rows: I think that these should be avoided entirely. Again, I will emphasize that this isnít true for everyone, but they have a high probability of causing impingement

2) Pec Deck: If your shoulders are fine, go for it. But if you have any shoulder issues, steer clear.

3) Flyes: Same as above. If your shoulders are fine, go for it. If not, be wary

4) Dips: Same as above. If you have bad shoulders avoid them. Otherwise, go ahead. Just be sure to not go past parallel with your upper arms.

5) Shoulder and Chest Presses (including Bench Press): These will most certainly aggravate your bad shoulder. Try to avoid these if you have shoulder problems.

6) Overhead Tricep Extension (with barbell or dumbbell): These put a lot of stress on your shoulders, so if you have any issues, avoid them.

Realistically, I could go on forever, as almost every upper body exercise involves the shoulders, but I think these are some of the top ones to avoid. You could argue that Any type of lateral or front raise should be in there too, but since you do usually go lighter with them anyway, Iíll leave that for you to decide whether to do them or not if you have a bad shoulder. Only you can judge what your body can handle, not me.


Section 6: How to do certain exercises better

Through my training, I found ways to change an exercise a little bit so that if you have shoulder problems, and even if you donít, you can perform them without putting too much stress on the shoulders. Again, you have to be your own judge. I could do most of these exercises without pain when my RC was bad, but that does not mean that this will be true for everybody. My point is, tread cautiously. Use these suggestions as a guide and hopefully they will help you.

1) Flat, Incline or Decline Dumbbell or Barbell Press: When lowering the barbell or dumbbell, donít go all the way to your chest. The point of doing these exercises is mainly to work your chest, and if you go too low, your shoulders will start doing all the work. Try it out for yourself to see whatís comfortable for you, but I would stop 3-4 inches above your chest. This will keep the stress on your chest (good) and off your shoulders (also good).
2) Pullups or Chinups: On the negative part of these exercises, donít quite go down all the way so that your arms are completely straight. This will put a lot of stress on your shoulders.
3) Pushups: Changing your hand positioning will reduce the stress on your shoulders. When my RC was bad, regular pushups caused me pain. But changing the hand position made them pain-free. For example, letís say your right shoulder is your bad one. When you get into pushup position, move your right hand back a couple inches, but keep your left hand where it was. Although some will decry that this will work your muscles different from the classic pushup, if you have a bad shoulder pushups might be painful, but putting the arm with the bad shoulders a couple inches back will greatly reduce the stress on your shoulders.
4) Skullcrushers or Lying tricep extensions: Instead of doing them on a flat bench, which is the most common way, try doing them on a slight incline. This will greatly reduce the stress on your shoulders. Even now that my shoulders are OK, I still do extensions on a slight incline (the lowest the bench will go without being flat, I think thatís at 15 degrees).


Thatís about all I can think of on how to perform certain exercises better to reduce stress on your shoulders. If I come up with anymore ideas Iíll add them, or if anyone else has suggestions I will gladly add them and credit you as the source.

Section 7: Further Reading

Here are some articles on shoulder rehabilitation if youíre interested in further reading:


http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1608/is_3_18/ai_83343027

http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=body_145shldr

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bbinfo.php?page=ShoulderInjuries


Section 8: Final Thoughts

If youíre reading this, well then thank you for making it this far! This took me a long time to write up, and I hope you have gained some new knowledge, whether youíre a novice or veteran of lifting, whether you have healthy shoulders or you donít. I would just like to stress again that these exercises arenít about how much weight you can do. Form and control are paramount. If you have any suggestions or comments or questions, please say something! If thereís something in here you disagree with, tell me why. As long as you give me a good reason, Iíll listen. But if you just say ďyour article sucks,Ē itíll fall on deaf ears. I want to know why it ďsucksĒ and what I can change. I wrote this as a service to everyone out there, healthy shoulders or not, and show you what has worked for me. If you even gain one tip or one exercise or whatever from this, then Iíll be happy. If not, thatís fine too. Good luck!

maxiw
07-13-2005, 07:02 PM
1) Flat, Incline or Decline Dumbbell or Barbell Press: When lowering the barbell or dumbbell, donít go all the way to your chest. The point of doing these exercises is mainly to work your chest, and if you go too low, your shoulders will start doing all the work. Try it out for yourself to see whatís comfortable for you, but I would stop 3-4 inches above your chest. This will keep the stress on your chest (good) and off your shoulders (also good).
When injured, how high up did you put it?

BernieD
07-13-2005, 07:06 PM
Good question

I didn't quite go up to arms fully locked, I went just high enough so that my elbows were still slightly bent. But I would say that overall I pretty much stayed away from presses. I wouldn't really advocate doing them if you have a bad shoulder. But doing them with a slightly decreased ROM will ease shoulder stress.

Thanks for the question

maxiw
07-13-2005, 07:10 PM
Pressing doesn't give me any direct pain... most lifting activities just seem to intensify a background, dull-like ache in the RC region.

Deadlift is the only lift I go hardcore on.

maxiw
07-13-2005, 07:15 PM
Do/did you have this kind of general ache?

cwsocr
07-13-2005, 07:17 PM
great great great read. im suffering from a shoulder problem now, AGAIN. def gonna start to rehab it as its about that time, ive been waiting just for everyday pain to go away. think im goin to see a chiropractor too, see what he sais about it. well done on the article.

KKFB140
07-13-2005, 07:20 PM
Are shoulder presses bad for you?

According to joe Defrance, they are.

": Timmy, Iíve answered this question before. Basically, when you press overhead, youíre driving the head of the humerus into the acromion. This causes impingement, specifically to the supraspinatus and long head of the biceps tendon. Repetitive impingement can lead to a tearing of these two muscles/tendons. I CANíT do military presses anymore even if I wanted to. The pain it creates in both of my AC joints is so severe that I canít lift upper body for at least 3-4 weeks after just a couple of sets of military presses. Itís just not worth it for me. Basically, my shoulder training consists of a ton of rear delt work, external rotator work, shrugs and light cable lateral raises.

Itís also very important for you to know that EVERYONEíS ANATOMY IS DIFFERENT. This is why exercises that hurt me, may not hurt you (for now anyway). For example, I had an appointment with a shoulder specialist last Monday to get cortisone shots in each one of my shoulders. The doctor was nice enough to spend some extra time with me as I asked him a thousand questions. He showed me the x-rays of my shoulders and revealed something to me that no other doctor has ever told me. He told me that the ďhookĒ of my acromion was the largest that heís ever seen. (This is NOT good, by the way.) Not only has this contributed to the arthritis that I have in my shoulder; Iím destined to have a rotator cuff tear in my supraspinatus down the road. Basically, the ďhookĒ of my acromion comes down so low itís rubbing against my supraspinatus. Even if I do everything perfect in the weight room, I am destined for this type of tear because of my God-given anatomy. (Just the news that I wanted to hear 1 week before my back surgery!)

**** happens.
Joe D."

http://www.defrancostraining.com/ask_joe/archives/ask_joe_05-04-01.htm#question02 (2nd question down)

BernieD
07-13-2005, 09:13 PM
Do/did you have this kind of general ache?


I wouldn't say that everything gave me an ache. Really only chest and shoulder exercises ached. Back and triceps was fine for me (but I did stay away from doing dips or close grip bench press)

Now, I almost never have any aches in my shoulders..and I attribute that partially to do these exercises prior to almost every workout.

If you get aches like that don't keep ignoring them. I did it for awhile until I realized how ridiculous it was that I wasn't doing anything. Try some of the things I mentioned (along with a little break from lifting) and hopefully it'll get better for you.

Thanks for the comment cwsocr. Good luck with the chiropractor.

And KKF...interesting post from that guy. But when I read that, what pops into my head immediately is something he even mentions: Itís also very important for you to know that EVERYONEíS ANATOMY IS DIFFERENT. This is why exercises that hurt me, may not hurt you (for now anyway)

Just cuz he can't do them cuz he's got real bad shoulders doesn't mean you shouldn't do them. If your shoulders are fine, then go ahead and do them. Just don't go overboard. Remember that bodybuilding isn't a numbers game. Concentrate on doing slow, controlled reps with perfect form with moderate weight. If you don't act all gung-ho and try and military press more than you can handle, you should be fine. Just progress slowly. And doing some of the exercises I've mentioned will certainly help you in the long run. To save time, I usually only do cable rotations, but on my shoulder days and sometimes on my chest days I do the full 4 exercise routine I have listed. Sure, it sucks to have to take the time to do them, but think of it in the long run...those 10 minutes could save you weeks, months or even years of shoulder problems.

Glyder
07-13-2005, 09:32 PM
Tag for later reading. At work now, so will read tomorrow :)

I have a current problem with my shoulder that I am trying to rectify, so hopefully this information will supplement what i am doing now.

maxiw
07-14-2005, 04:27 AM
I wouldn't say that everything gave me an ache. Really only chest and shoulder exercises ached. Back and triceps was fine for me (but I did stay away from doing dips or close grip bench press)

Now, I almost never have any aches in my shoulders..and I attribute that partially to do these exercises prior to almost every workout.

If you get aches like that don't keep ignoring them. I did it for awhile until I realized how ridiculous it was that I wasn't doing anything. Try some of the things I mentioned (along with a little break from lifting) and hopefully it'll get better for you.
I don't totally ignore them; I feel my way by the intensity of the ache.

I haven't had time to look through your rehab exercises and I never understood Dogcrapp's ones. But here you will find many similar such exercises, most of which I do roughly once every two days (I wonder what you think of them and if you think they're sufficient). I hope viewing the video clips will spare others trying to figure the exercises out from written descriptions. I only kept a record of their URLs:

http://www.orthopedic-sportsmed.com/clips/v00010.mpg
http://www.orthopedic-sportsmed.com/clips/Dzl5010.mpg
http://www.orthopedic-sportsmed.com/clips/v00015.mpg
http://www.orthopedic-sportsmed.com/clips/v00014.mpg
http://www.orthopedic-sportsmed.com/clips/Dzl62E5.mpg
http://www.orthopedic-sportsmed.com/clips/v00013.mpg
http://www.orthopedic-sportsmed.com/clips/v00012.mpg
http://www.orthopedic-sportsmed.com/clips/Dzl2A1.mpg

http://www.orthopedic-sportsmed.com/clips/DzlB144.mpg
http://www.orthopedic-sportsmed.com/clips/DzlA190.mpg
http://www.orthopedic-sportsmed.com/clips/Dzl6344.mpg
http://www.orthopedic-sportsmed.com/clips/Dzl4290.mpg
http://www.orthopedic-sportsmed.com/clips/Dzl5291.mpg
http://www.orthopedic-sportsmed.com/clips/Dzl3311.mpg

http://www.orthopedic-sportsmed.com/clips/Dzl9321.mpg
http://www.orthopedic-sportsmed.com/clips/Dzl8333.mpg
http://www.orthopedic-sportsmed.com/clips/Dzl80A1.mpg
http://www.orthopedic-sportsmed.com/clips/DzlB1E3.mpg
http://www.orthopedic-sportsmed.com/clips/DzlD270.mpg
http://www.orthopedic-sportsmed.com/clips/DzlF186.mpg

Boogie
07-14-2005, 05:16 AM
I've had a nagging shoulder injury for years in my left shoulder by my armpit close to my chest. I am unable to do flat bench presses. I have never tried to rehabilitate it, so maybe this stuff can work on me.

KKFB140
07-14-2005, 09:09 AM
But what military presses do for EVERYBODY is:

"Basically, when you press overhead, youíre driving the head of the humerus into the acromion. This causes impingement, specifically to the supraspinatus and long head of the biceps tendon."

Shoulders are the most complex body part to workout safely.

BernieD
07-14-2005, 10:47 AM
^I know what you're saying, but then how do you respond to the people who can military press 250+ pounds without problems? Everyone's body is different. Some people are better at handling heavy loads than others...

maxiw...thanks for those links...I'll check em out later.

xueimelynnad
07-14-2005, 11:46 AM
Good post, just about everything there is what my physical therapist told me to do after I had my shoulder cleaned out and rebuilt. Another sign that you might have a bad shoulder is if when you lift, your shoulders both feel fine but move differently and automatically adjust to different angles. Even after lots of therapy and getting them to pretty much the same strength, having no cartiledge or a couple ligaments and tendons makes it move different. The cable extensions are also great for extending your range of motion, let the weight reasonably pull your arm back further than you could pull it in the other direction (I can get to 120 degrees outward pulling the cable, but can pull in from 200, the weight helps pull it backward. Also if you cant quite lift your arm up real high, say, well ok 60 degrees from vertical, but wherever, grab onto a door edge and walk your fingers up, then see how long you can hold it there without holding onto the door, lower as slow as you can.

this thread should be a sticky, shoulders are some of the weakest and most complicated parts on someone, and the most used

Bad_Vibes
07-14-2005, 11:54 AM
Great article, I've worked through shoulder issues on both sides of my body over the years. As soon as I get one cleared up the other side goes. The thing I've learned is making adjustments in movements, constantly trying new things ,and researching will heal them. The lower back can be the same way. That broom stick stretch looks great. One more weapon in the arsenal against impengments. Thanks a lot for the info.

Gajanga
07-14-2005, 12:31 PM
If you feel a twinge while doing db bench, and then pust through it, then a few months later up the weight on your db military press and the shoulder feels like it's "slipping" for lack of better words, which injury do you think this would be? 3 months of rest later, and now in week 3 of workout again, dips don't hurt, but bench does, so it can't be done. Military press is crazy to even consider. Weight was 70lb db's on the military, now is 20lb db's, and a lot of stretching and rehab for the shoulder. I guess what I'm asking is, does this sound like an AC or r/c injury to you? I've had my shoulder x-rayed, and scheduled for an MRI, but not for several months.

BernieD
07-14-2005, 03:30 PM
^^

I don't know as much about AC injuries, but it sounds as if it could be one. When I was looking up info for this article, I came across posts from this guy "Nainoa" here on BB.com about AC injuries. I tried emailing him once, but got no response. I would search for his posts though, as he seems to have a lot of knowledge about AC injuries...he had simple tests you could do to check pain, ROM etc. My understanding was that if overhead presses etc cause pain, then it could be an AC injury.

And the fact that dips don't hurt leads me to believe that it isn't the RC, but the AC...but this is just what I'm thinking, please DO NOT take this as actual medical advice, just my opinion ;)


Also, to everyone else...in the exercise section of the article I added one more exercise that I'd forgot to put in....

http://www.thetrainingstationinc.com/rotator-cuff-exercises.html

Exercise 4 there (I did list this link in the article, but thought I'd repost it separately. Just be sure to go light weight.

JNo20
07-14-2005, 03:45 PM
bump for a great thread

xueimelynnad
07-15-2005, 11:10 AM
I tried those over the head broomstick things yesterday and its kicking my ass today, guess I wasnt as equal as I thought. One question with them though, should I keep my entire grip on the stick? I mostly just kept my thumb and index finger ringed around the stick so I could rotate my hands at the bottom of the movement, hope I didnt do it wrong.

BernieD
07-26-2005, 09:24 PM
^oops, should've answered this awhile back, sorry.

Always keep your whole hand gripping the broomstick. Not sure if I understand you right, but you shouldn't be bending at the wrist at all.


Better late than never I guess...



After thinking about it a lot and trying some different things.....I've come to a conclusion: I now DEFINITELY prefer using dumbbell for the different rotations rather than the cables (see links above for the DB examples).

But before you go and reach for those dumbbells now instead, consider this:


If you're gonna do some of the above exercises as a warmup for an upper body workout just to get blood flowing to your shoulders, dumbbells MAY (keyword here) not be the answer for you. Why? DBs will tend to wear out your RC more than the cables will, for obvious reasons (machine vs freeweight). While following such a warmup routine, while your shoulder won't be sore necessarily for your workout, it will be a little more fatigued (but I also found that the more I did rotations with DBs for awhile, the less fatigued I was after). Often though, just waiting a couple minutes before you start your workout will make your shoulder fatigue go away, so even if you were to do a shoulder workout, I don't think it would interfere significantly. That being said though, this DOES deserve a mention (since we're always about safety, right?)

So if you will use DBs as a warmup for the RC before a workout, I'd definitely just try doing only internal and external rotations, 2 sets, around 10 reps (I'm not really a fan of going to failure, this will especially make your shoulders fatigued for the impending workout only minutes away). That should be sufficient.


Otherwise, you could just opt to go for cables.


On the other hand, if you are intent on REHABBING your RC, definitely go with the dumbbells! Not sure why I didn't like using DBs as much before...I think it was just cuz I liked the fact that there was constant tension on the RC with the cables, and that the ROM is somewhat greater/easier. But DBs will work the RC so much better. If you're one of those people that has had clicking/cracking in your shoulder for a longer period of time now, do 2 sets each of internal and external rotations with DBs (lying sideways on a bench) and I can almost guarantee you that your shoulder will feel better immediately after (I could be jinxing myself by saying that, as this is how it is for me, but try it and I think you'll suddenly hear/feel less cracking or noises and increased ROM and flexibility). Granted, this doesn't mean that the loose feeling in your shoulders will be permanent (cuz c'mon, then rehab would always be easy ;)), but it will definitely tell you you're on the right track.

Just a little update. I will try and edit some of these ideas into the original posts so that people don't miss this info. I'm also going to try and add some new information/observations later this week. The importance of a healthy RC CANNOT be underestimated, so there are always new things to learn and try.

And I'm spent.

AussieLB
08-11-2005, 12:28 PM
Thanks to all for doing the hard work and writing this up - this is really informative.

I just wanted to add that my shoulder problems were caused by me doing poor form on a lot of exercises. Now I make sure I "Lock" my shoulder blades in before doing any shoulder work. This has improved the feel of the exercise, protected my shoulders and isolates my shoulder really well.

Thanks for going to such an effort - I have forwarded this on two three of my friends with similar problems.

Gajanga
08-13-2005, 10:47 AM
do 2 sets each of internal and external rotations with DBs (lying sideways on a bench) and I can almost guarantee you that your shoulder will feel better immediately after


What are internal and external rotations w/db's? Lay sideways, then hold the db out to my front once, and out to my side once? Thanks.

BernieD
08-13-2005, 11:51 AM
^http://www.thetrainingstationinc.com/rotator-cuff-exercises.html

more pics here: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/likness22.htm

exercises 2 and 3 on the first page. You can see animations of them there. For ex. 2, I like to do it so my forearm is vertical, not just up to shoulder level...up to shoulder level didn't really do much for me since the ROM is so small. Your elbow joint has to act like a hinge. Keep the elbow firmly at your side. Try 3 or 5 pound DBs to start, then gradually increase the weight. I get all the benefits I need though from 5 pounds, maybe 7.5 pounds. But of course, if you're a pretty big guy with like 18 inch arms hehe, 5 pounds may seem really light. But again, you don't need a lot of weight at all to strengthen your RC.

pepingtom
08-13-2005, 03:22 PM
^http://www.thetrainingstationinc.com/rotator-cuff-exercises.html

more pics here: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/likness22.htm

exercises 2 and 3 on the first page. You can see animations of them there. For ex. 2, I like to do it so my forearm is vertical, not just up to shoulder level...up to shoulder level didn't really do much for me since the ROM is so small. Your elbow joint has to act like a hinge. Keep the elbow firmly at your side. Try 3 or 5 pound DBs to start, then gradually increase the weight. I get all the benefits I need though from 5 pounds, maybe 7.5 pounds. But of course, if you're a pretty big guy with like 18 inch arms hehe, 5 pounds may seem really light. But again, you don't need a lot of weight at all to strengthen your RC.

Aren't you suppose to stay at or below 5 pounds to effectively strengthen the rotator cuff and ligaments

BernieD
10-06-2005, 04:25 PM
Shoulder Rehabilitation: Tips, Exercises and Routines

This article contains the following sections:

1: Introduction to Rotator Cuff

2: Stretches

3: Exercises

4: A sample routine

5: Exercises to be wary of

6: How to do certain exercises better

7: Further Reading

8: Final Thoughts


Section 1: Introduction

First off, let me explain something. I hesitate to call this a ďcompleteĒ thread on shoulder injuries, as it is virtually impossible to cover everything. My hope is if you have a shoulder injury (or even if you donít), that you will learn some valuable tips on how to rehab your shoulder and keep it healthy, what exercises to avoid, and how to do certain exercises better to minimize stress on the shoulders. But please keep in mind that you need to be careful doing any of these exercises. If you are in a lot of pain, then you should probably be going to a doctor or chiropractor. I cannot diagnose you. It may be your RC, it may be your AC. But if your shoulder has been a nagging injury (like it was for me) or if you just want to know how to take care of your shoulder better, then look no further.

As for me, I had a nagging RC injury for months and months. I trained through it (stupidly enough) and just went a little lighter on the weights. While my shoulder didnít really get any worse, it didnít get any better, either. So finally I decided to take action and really work on rehabbing my shoulder (or shoulders, I should sayÖI had impingement in both!)

Training the RC is extremely important for lifting. It gets used in most upper body exercises (even in tricep and bicep exercises to a certain extent) and constantly has to handle a lot of stress. If you keep it strong and healthy though, you can lift for a long time with no problems. I will not go into a detailed explanation of shoulder anatomy, as this is not the purpose of this article, but if you want more information on that then look HERE ( http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kurilla6.htm).

An obvious question becomes, how do I know if I even have an injured shoulder? If you have any pain, then thereís obviously something wrong. But there are other telltale signs, such as tenderness in the shoulder when you press on it, pain when lifting it overhead or to the side (i.e. lateral raise) or a limited Range Of Motion (ROM).

Hereís also a quick, easy test to try with which you can evaluate your shoulders. Stand facing a mirror, hands at your sides. If you can only see your thumbs and index fingers, then your posture is fine. If you can see your ring finger or even your whole palm, then your shoulders are out of whack. With the following exercises, your posture and your shoulders-hunched-forward look will improve.

According to a recent article in Menís Health (yes, Iím referencing that magazine, donít laugh ;)) shoulder impingement is the second most common sports injury behind a neck pull, so that will not only tell you how prevalent it is but then also how important it is to not be someone who adds to these statistics.

If you think and/or know that you have an AC injury, Iíd recommend searching for posts by ďNainoaĒ on this board, he knows a lot of information about AC injuries. If it hurts to do overhead presses, then it is more likely an AC injury rather than an RC injury.

Well, that about does it for the intro, now letís get down to business!

Section 2: Stretches

In case you didnít already know, stretching is very important in lifting. Without it, you have a higher chance of injury (and who wouldnít want to avoid that?) If you currently have shoulder problems, do them cautiously. You should feel a stretch when doing this, but not pain. Try holding the stretch for 15 seconds. Iíd recommend doing them before and after every workout (even lower body work; squats place some stress on the shoulders as well).

Some great shoulder stretches are explained HERE (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/likness22.htm) (Go to the very bottom of the page).

Another great stretch is to bend your elbow so your forearm and upper arm create a 90 degree angle. Keeping this position, put your arm behind your back, palm facing away from you. The higher up you place your hand on your back, the greater the stretch. Experiment and see what position is comfortable for you. This is a great stretch thatís easy to do, and can be done in public without it looking awkward (I do these when Iím talking to someone all the time, although usually just when Iím sitting down).

BernieD
10-06-2005, 04:26 PM
Section 3: Exercises

Well, here we go. I will make a list of the best RC exercises that I know of, and in the next section I will post a sample routine.

First off, the ďBroomstick stretchĒ from the infamous Dante AKA Doggcrapp over at http://www.intens************

This exercise was extremely vital for rehabbing my shoulder. It increased my ROM, stopped any clicking, and was well, just plain awesome. I highly recommend doing this. (I do it everyday, except for on the same day of my chest workout and my shoulder workout, 40-50 repetitions). As explained in the thread, you will need a long broomstick (about 6-7 feet long) for it to be effective. A towel or anything else just wonít cut it. When starting off, first try 25 repetitions, then slowly work your way up to 50. By the time you get there, your shoulders will feel a lot better and a lot more flexible, whether you had a shoulder problem or not. In case you havenít already noticed, I absolutely swear by this exercise. Read about it HERE (http://www.intens************/showthread.php?t=6997&page=1&pp=25)


updatedInternal and External Rotations

These are another must for working the RC. View examples HERE (http://www.thetrainingstationinc.com/rotator-cuff-exercises.html) Exercises 2 and 3


Here are some pics on how to do external rotations (http://www.bullz-eye.com/furci/2004/exercise_of_month/external_rotation.htm)

This right here is the biggest change Iíve made to this article. Before I was all about using cables over dumbbells because cables gave you constant tension on the muscle. Now I realize how wrong I was! I started trying dumbbells (begrudgingly) and I was amazed at how much better my shoulders started to feel. So I hate to do it, but ignore what I said about cables and try dumbbells. If youíve already been doing cables for awhile, then at least give dumbbells a try and see what you think. If youíve tried neither, go for dumbbells and if that doesnít seem to work for you then try cables. Again, to each their own, but dumbbells have been much better for me.

That trainingstationinc link above shows how to do DB internal and external rotations, but personally I donít like their depiction of the exercise. It is common to go anywhere from 15 pound dumbbells on up to do said RC exercises, but I think you can get MUCH better results with trying less than 10 pounds (and increasing from there) by using a greater ROM.

Hereís how (this explains both internal and external rotation, only the grip is different).

Lie on your side on a bench (doing it on the floor wonít allow for the best ROM) or anything elevated. So try lying on your left side first. Hold the dumbbell in your right hand, and lay your forearm across your abs so that your arm is at a 90 degree angle and your elbow is by your waist.. Keep your right elbow FIXED at your side (it should NEVER leave your obliques). Slowly raise the dumbbell (NEVER moving your elbow joint, this is important: If you need to, you can cup your elbow with your other hand so it remains stationary) until your forearm is completely vertical (perpendicular to the ground, in other words). Then slowly come back down (slow negative). As for grip, thereís one for internal rotation and one for external rotation.

For internal rotation: Hold the dumbbell so it is parallel to the floor, palms facing towards you. In other words, you should be holding the dumbbell in the same position as if you were standing up and holding one at your side with a hammer grip (i.e. getting ready to do hammer curls).

For external rotation: Letting your forearm dangle, hold the dumbbell so that the end of it is
The Cuban Rotation:

View the exercise HERE (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/exercise3/cubanrotations.htm)

This is another great exercise to improve your external rotation. For this one, go very light weight (I cannot stress this enough, working your RC is not about using a lot of weight!). For many a barbell may be too much weight when starting out. I used one of those pre-fitted EZ bars at my gym, only 25 pounds. Again, you donít need a lot of weight. Make sure your form is strict and controlled. Shoot for about 10-12 reps.


Scapular Retraction:

The Start: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/likness22g.jpg
The Finish: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/likness22h.jpg

This is a great exercise for your shoulder blades.. This will help you if you have rounded shoulders, as it works in pulling the shoulders back so that theyíre in a more natural position. While this does not directly target the RC per se, I still found it to be a great exercise that worked really well. Again, use light weights anywhere between 5-20 pound dumbbells when you first try it. Shoot for about 10-15 reps and concentrate on really squeezing your shoulder blades together. If you go to heavy, you wonít be able to do this and youíll compromise your form, which is always a no-no.

The Can Opener

I'm not sure of the actual name of this exercise, but I call it "The Can Opener" for lack of a better term. Check it out HERE (Exercise #4).

Make sure to do it with a light weight and slow, controlled reps.

New: Dumbbell Swing

These are done with pretty light weights, try under 10 pounds first then take it from there. Hold a dumbbell in one hand and then with the other hand lean down and support it on a bench, table, chair etc. With the dumbbell in hand, do a circular rotation i.e. make a circle by moving your arm from your shoulder, keeping the arm straight. First try making a very small circle, then once it gets easier you can increase the ROM by making very big circles. Aim for 10-20 rotations with each hand.

Other exercises:

http://www.ncsf.org/tools/video.aspx#9

This website has a bunch of rotator cuff exercises. I have tried a bunch of them, and personally I donít feel that they did much for me, but of course Iím not like everybody else, so if you try them and you like them, then by all means use them. I think a better alternative to some of these is doing the rotations lying on your side, rather than on your back.

Note: The exercises I have outlined are by no means the only RC exercises. They are some of the most common ones though (especially the internal and external rotations) and they are what worked best for me (but again, I canít speak for everyone).



updatedSection 4: A Sample Routine

The following is a sample routine for the aforementioned exercises. Ideally you would do them before every upper body workout. But then again, this routine can also be time-consuming, so if you want to use the RC exercises as a warmu , you could limit the routine to just internal rotation and then external rotation. [i]A note about poundage: I know Iíve said this earlier, but donít scoff when I say to try 5 pounds. Sure, most people would be able to do it fine, but when my RC was bad 5 pounds felt like a lot. RC exercises, again, have really no implication for muscle gains, purely for rehab/strength. You donít need heavy weights (and yes, I realize that strength training is usually associated with heavy weights, but this is different ;))

Exercise 1: Internal Rotation with dumbbells

2-3 sets, go to failure or 20 reps, whichever comes first (if you can do 20 reps without feeling much of a ďburnĒ or fatigue in your shoulder, then increase the weight. Try 5 pounds first and see how it feels, then adjust accordingly. Remember, it should not hurt, you should just feel the RC working. Also, donít forget that I think a full ROM is optimal, so start with your forearm hanging down perpendicular to the floor and then lift up the weight (keeping your elbow fixed at your side) until your forearm is upright and again perpendicular to the floor. Again, PLEASE read Section 3 above on how to do the exercise correctly.

Exercise 2: External Rotation with dumbbells.

2-3 sets, go to failure or 20 reps, whichever comes first (if you can do 20 reps without feeling much of a ďburnĒ or fatigue in your shoulder, then increase the weight. Try 5 pounds first and see how it feels, then adjust accordingly. Remember, it should not hurt, you should just feel the RC working. Also, donít forget that I think a full ROM is optimal, so start with your forearm hanging down perpendicular to the floor and then lift up the weight (keeping your elbow fixed at your side) until your forearm is upright and again perpendicular to the floor. Again, PLEASE read Section 3 above on how to do the exercise correctly.

Exercise 3: Cuban Rotation

2-3 sets, 10-12 reps, start off somewhere between a 15 pound to 40 pound EZ-bar and go from there

Exercise 4: Scapular Retraction

2-3 sets, 10-15 reps, try dumbbells anywhere between 10-20 pounds and go up from there. Remember to really squeeze those shoulder blades

BernieD
10-06-2005, 04:29 PM
Section 5: Exercises to be wary of

This section of the article will probably be very controversial. I will give a list of exercises that I think should not be done at all (for someone with healthy or bad shoulders) and some that should be avoided if you have shoulder problems (granted, the best thing is to not be lifting at all if you have a bad shoulder, but if it is only minor and nagging, it is still very common to see guys just working through it). Ultimately, you have to be the judge. But rememberójust because the exercise doesnít cause pain, does not mean it canít cause problems in the long run. Here are some of my suggestions:

1) Upright Rows: I think that these should be avoided entirely. Again, I will emphasize that this isnít true for everyone, but they have a high probability of causing impingement

2) Pec Deck: If your shoulders are fine, go for it. But if you have any shoulder issues, steer clear.

3) Incline, Decline, Flat Flyes: Same as above. If your shoulders are fine, go for it. If not, be wary

4) Chest/Tricep Dips: Same as above. If you have bad shoulders avoid them. Otherwise, go ahead. Just be sure to not go past parallel to the ground with your upper arms.

5) Shoulder and Chest Presses (including Bench Press): These will most certainly aggravate your bad shoulder. Try to avoid these if you have shoulder problems.

6) Overhead Tricep Extension, seated or lying down (with barbell or dumbbell): These put a lot of stress on your shoulders, so if you have any issues, avoid them.

Realistically, I could go on forever, as almost every upper body exercise involves the shoulders, but I think these are some of the top ones to avoid. You could argue that Any type of lateral or front raise should be in there too, but since you do usually go lighter with them anyway, Iíll leave that for you to decide whether to do them or not if you have a bad shoulder. Only you can judge what your body can handle, not me.


Section 6: How to do certain exercises better

Through my training, I found ways to change an exercise a little bit so that if you have shoulder problems, and even if you donít, you can perform them without putting too much stress on the shoulders. Again, you have to be your own judge. I could do most of these exercises without pain when my RC was bad, but that does not mean that this will be true for everybody. My point is, tread cautiously. Use these suggestions as a guide and hopefully they will help you.

1) Flat, Incline or Decline Dumbbell or Barbell Press: When lowering the barbell or dumbbell, donít go all the way to your chest. The point of doing these exercises is mainly to work your chest, and if you go too low, your shoulders will start doing all the work. Try it out for yourself to see whatís comfortable for you, but I would stop 3-4 inches above your chest. This will keep the stress on your chest (good) and off your shoulders (also good).
2) Pullups or Chinups: On the negative part of these exercises, donít quite go down all the way so that your arms are completely straight. This will put a lot of stress on your shoulders.
3) Pushups: Changing your hand positioning will reduce the stress on your shoulders. When my RC was bad, regular pushups caused me pain. But changing the hand position made them pain-free. For example, letís say your right shoulder is your bad one. When you get into pushup position, move your right hand back a couple inches, but keep your left hand where it was. Although some will decry that this will work your muscles different from the classic pushup, if you have a bad shoulder pushups might be painful, but putting the arm with the bad shoulders a couple inches back will greatly reduce the stress on your shoulders.
4) Skullcrushers or Lying tricep extensions: Instead of doing them on a flat bench, which is the most common way, try doing them on a slight incline. This will greatly reduce the stress on your shoulders. Even now that my shoulders are OK, I still do extensions on a slight incline (the lowest the bench will go without being flat, I think thatís at 15 degrees).


Thatís about all I can think of on how to perform certain exercises better to reduce stress on your shoulders. If I come up with anymore ideas Iíll add them, or if anyone else has suggestions I will gladly add them and credit you as the source.

Section 7: Further Reading

Here are some articles on shoulder rehabilitation if youíre interested in further reading:


http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1608/is_3_18/ai_83343027

http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=body_145shldr

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bbinfo.php?page=ShoulderInjuries


Section 8: Final Thoughts

If youíre reading this, well then thank you for making it this far! This took me a long time to write up, and I hope you have gained some new knowledge, whether youíre a novice or veteran of lifting, whether you have healthy shoulders or you donít. I would just like to stress again that these exercises arenít about how much weight you can do. Form and control are paramount. If you have any suggestions or comments or questions, please say something! If thereís something in here you disagree with, tell me why. As long as you give me a good reason, Iíll listen. But if you just say ďyour article sucks,Ē itíll fall on deaf ears. I want to know why it ďsucksĒ and what I can change. I wrote this as a service to everyone out there, healthy shoulders or not, and show you what has worked for me. If you even gain one tip or one exercise or whatever from this, then Iíll be happy. If not, thatís fine too. Good luck!

BernieD
10-06-2005, 04:30 PM
For some damn reason I can't edit the original posts, so you'll have to scroll all the way down here to read the updated article. The main portions updated are sections 3 and 4.

Lights0ut
10-06-2005, 05:27 PM
Thank you very much for your hard work BernieD. I'm subscribing to this one.

BernieD
10-06-2005, 09:42 PM
Aren't you suppose to stay at or below 5 pounds to effectively strengthen the rotator cuff and ligaments



sorry, very old question that I totally missed...


Well yes, you're right, if you've never trained your RCs before, or if they're injured, then you really should start out with 3 or 5 pounds...but as the RC's get stronger, you're gonna want to increase the weight. When I first did them 3 pounds was kinda rough (that was when my shoulders were kinda crappy). Shoulders still aren't 100%, but I can now do 8 pounds, so it's getting there hehe. As you get stronger, it only makes sense to increase the weight, just within reason of course. Each time should only be 1-2 pounds.

And you're welcome LightsOut, glad you got something out of this

Ron Schwarz
10-06-2005, 10:00 PM
But what military presses do for EVERYBODY is:

"Basically, when you press overhead, youíre driving the head of the humerus into the acromion. This causes impingement, specifically to the supraspinatus and long head of the biceps tendon."

Shoulders are the most complex body part to workout safely.

I disagree with the quote. If this were true, everyone would *eventually* get impingement, which isn't the case. I agree that you have to be *very* careful with the shoulders, and the thinking that, "my exercise and/or form is okay because I haven't been injured" is not the right way to look at it.

You really *should* do overhead presses, not just to build muscle, but for shoulder health as well. It's a great exercise. My philosophy again, though is that certain types of OHPs lead to increased chance of injury.

I don't recommend the behind neck press, as it has led to a LOT of problems in many people.

There are also guys who have problems just doing a regular barbell press to the front. This is due to the wrist positioning - some are more likely to have problems. The solution is to do dumbbell pressing where the grip can be varied. IMO, the safest overhead press is the db OHP with palms facing each other. Least amount of stress on the tendons.

Another big reason why guys have shoulder problems is they focus WAY too much on pressing movements and not on pulling. Strength imbalances lead to problems.

EVERYONE should be doing an external rotator exercise like l-flyes for shoulder health.

Good discussion, guys.

Ron Schwarz
10-06-2005, 10:04 PM
Thank you very much for your hard work BernieD. I'm subscribing to this one.

I agree, Bernie should be applauded for taking the time to write the article.

jmonty
10-10-2005, 09:39 PM
thanks bernied. very informative. i didn't realize that going all the way down on pullups and benchpressing was that bad on the shoulders, even though it seems obvious now.

samos1
10-15-2005, 10:09 PM
After having shoulder problems and partial dislocation/minortear of the spinatus I'll be reading this thread closely.. need to strengthen my shoulders.

As far as these exercises go, how often should they be performed.. will once a week suffice?

$AJ
10-15-2005, 10:23 PM
bizump

BernieD
10-16-2005, 12:41 PM
After having shoulder problems and partial dislocation/minortear of the spinatus I'll be reading this thread closely.. need to strengthen my shoulders.

As far as these exercises go, how often should they be performed.. will once a week suffice?


If you're rehabbing your shoulders from an injury, do one of the FULL routines, 4 exercises, that I've listed maybe 3-4x a week. If you're healthy, but think you have weak RC's, try it 2x a week. But no matter what you do, I'd ALWAYS recommend doing dumbbell internal and external rotations before ANY upper body workout, no matter what muscle you're working.

So I guess what I'm saying is..if you're looking to strengthen your shoulders, 1x a week isn't quite enough.

deepakd
10-16-2005, 04:16 PM
Thanks a lot
I also have small apin in my weak right hand shoulder
I avoid all the exercises that casue the pain to come up
I almst dont do any shoulder exercises like military press, side raise, db front raise at all

But I do rotator db and some shoulder stretching exercise with miniscule weight

thanks

deepak

samos1
10-16-2005, 05:21 PM
If you're rehabbing your shoulders from an injury, do one of the FULL routines, 4 exercises, that I've listed maybe 3-4x a week. If you're healthy, but think you have weak RC's, try it 2x a week. But no matter what you do, I'd ALWAYS recommend doing dumbbell internal and external rotations before ANY upper body workout, no matter what muscle you're working.

So I guess what I'm saying is..if you're looking to strengthen your shoulders, 1x a week isn't quite enough.
Thanks bro. Yeah I'm rehabbing from poor shoulders. I'll try the routine 4x this week, I really want to get back into training.

BernieD
10-16-2005, 09:19 PM
^yea. I remember the first time I did it with DB's my shoulders felt waay better. Clicking was gone, ROM was better. Of course, I knew it didn't mean it was healed, but it meant I was headed in the right direction.

samos1
10-17-2005, 01:06 AM
I've got an proper understanding of internal/external and the cuban movements, all pretty basic.. but the one over at DC didn't have any pictures.. I don't quite understand it, any pictures to explain it better? Seems like a weird movement..

BernieD
10-17-2005, 08:06 PM
I've got an proper understanding of internal/external and the cuban movements, all pretty basic.. but the one over at DC didn't have any pictures.. I don't quite understand it, any pictures to explain it better? Seems like a weird movement..

If you scroll through the first 4 pages or so of the thread there will be pics. Here's an easy to describe it. Hold the broomstick in front of you, at about ab level, arms perfectly straight, not bent. This is how it should look when the stick is behind your back. Lift your arms up and over head, maintaining straight arms, then go behind the back until the stick reaches about mid-back level, or wherever you feel a real good stretch in the shoulders. But yea, there are pics in that thread.

spirit3530
10-17-2005, 08:29 PM
Nice article bro. Well thought out and nice break from "teh best bicept workout" articles. Reps on the way.

samos1
10-20-2005, 04:50 AM
If you scroll through the first 4 pages or so of the thread there will be pics. Here's an easy to describe it. Hold the broomstick in front of you, at about ab level, arms perfectly straight, not bent. This is how it should look when the stick is behind your back. Lift your arms up and over head, maintaining straight arms, then go behind the back until the stick reaches about mid-back level, or wherever you feel a real good stretch in the shoulders. But yea, there are pics in that thread.
With a stick, it's so difficult it actually hurt my shoulders. In the thread with the pics, the guy is using a rubber band type piece of equipment which allows rotation of the wrists to face the opposite ways as he turns.

You start with palms pronated and once you're past your head hands should be supinated?

BernieD
10-20-2005, 02:43 PM
^yea, that sounds right.

As for the stick hurting...it may be painful when you first try it. If it is, then don't do it. I don't know how severe your injury is. If your shoulders are so that they just hurt pretty bad in general, then the broomstick stretch will be bad for you. If you can only feel it if you move your shoulder a certain way, then just try and tough it, just be careful. This exercise shouldn't be pleasant, it does hurt a bit cuz your shoulders get a huge pump from doing it. Try doing 10 reps first and gradually increasing to 50.

Also, are you sure that your stick is long enough? You could use a rubber band type piece of equipment, just make sure it's about 7 feet long (that's a little over 2 meters long). As you get stronger, you can move your hands closer together on the band to make it tougher. But yea, you need a long stick, cuz you'll be using a super wide grip for this. I think in the intensemuscle thread, there's a pic of a guy doing it with a stick...you'll see how long it is.

samos1
10-20-2005, 05:52 PM
Yeah it only hurts certain part of the movement.. I guess I just need to get used to it, and use a proper stick. The stick I was using was quite heavy, but only ~1.2-1.5m long.. so an extra long broomstick will do the job?

BernieD
10-20-2005, 07:15 PM
ah, that's your problem. The stick should be light. Look at that pic again in the thread...the guy is just using a stick...weighs practically nothing. You don't want/need a heavy stick for this. And yea, 1.5m is too short. Try to find something at least 2m. A broomstick from a hardware store might do the job, or maybe you could find another store with something long like that...shouldn't be very expensive.

samos1
10-25-2005, 04:58 PM
I've been doing it without the stick, just rotating my arms.. I can feel my scap retracting as I do it, so I think I have the movement down - you're supposed to let the broom stick roll through your fingers and not be ridged, correct? Even though the pic provided states you should be maintaining tension (pulling the stick apart) as you do the movement..

BernieD
10-25-2005, 09:05 PM
no, don't let the stick roll around in your fingers, keep a snug grip on the stick at all times. And remember to keep your arms straight AT ALL TIMES. The way your arms look when the stick is front of your body is the way they should look when the stick is overhead and behind you. If you can't keep your arms straight, then widen your grip. As you get better, narrow your grip inch by inch (on the stick I use I made markings so I can see the progress I've made..)

Bobyota
10-27-2005, 03:04 PM
Very nice article Bernie.

I have some kinda shoulder problem myself. I had slight shoulder pain for a few months, then one day, it started hurting pretty bad (kinda sharp pain). Funny thing is this pain started about 24 hrs after a workout (di bi's and back that day, guess the back stuff could have put the strain on it). Didn't have pain during the workout or that night.

So I took off 1 month and things felt better, but it still felt a little odd in my shoulder (pain was pretty light, more annoying than anything). Now I've been working out for about 6 weeks and trying to take out some excersises that could hurt and I also do stretches and some of these RC strengthening excersises.

What I'd like to know is if some of you don't really have problems during the workout (or very minimal pain), but maybe more pain the next day or two. This happens to me, and I thought it may be out of the ordinary?

BernieD
10-27-2005, 05:45 PM
nah, that's normal, to have more pain the next day. Same with soreness, you won't be sore after your workout, but the next day or day after that you will. You just don't want pain to be a constant thing. If your shoulder is always painful, then you need to be proactive about it.

Bobyota
10-27-2005, 06:19 PM
Cool. I'm not always in pain, just usually sore after working out and sometimes during. I work upper body 4 times a week, thought about combining some body parts just so I don't have so many days that could bring out the shoulder pain.

BernieD
11-02-2005, 07:47 AM
you need to do a cardio warmup then stretch your shoulders a bit and do some of the DB internal and external rotations I was talking about in the article to warm up your shoulders. Then stretch your shoulders postworkout. If you keep just ignoring the soreness it will NEVER get better and you won't be able to lift them big weights for them big muscles lol.

Look at it this way:

Ignoring it is a temporary (easy) solution to a chronic problem.

Diana Ball
11-02-2005, 07:57 AM
I tried the broomstick exercise... Am I doing this right-

GarethCheeseman
11-05-2005, 04:14 PM
I just can't picture how this broomstick stretch is being done, it doesn't sound possible. Anyone got a video or some pictures of it at individual stages?

BernieD
11-05-2005, 10:59 PM
I just can't picture how this broomstick stretch is being done, it doesn't sound possible. Anyone got a video or some pictures of it at individual stages?

If you go to the intens************ thread, skim through the first 4 pages or so and you'll see a few pictures.

Easy way to think of it. Hold the stick out in front of you with a wide grip, with STRAIGHT arms, so that the stick is at about bellybutton height. It should look like that, just reversed, when you go through the motion.

Another way I could explain it. Hold it out in front of you, arms straight, at bellybutton height. never losing the straight arms (elbows locked) lift the stick up and back behind your head so that by the end of the movement your palms up instead of palms down. Then just slowly bring it back up over your head to the front.

Use a wide grip, and you need a 7 foot long stick. Any shorter than that is too ineffective/tough to use.

EDIT: In the IM.com thread, someone posted this link, if this doesn't explain it well then, I'm at a loss ;):

http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/000629.html

GarethCheeseman
11-06-2005, 04:45 AM
Thanks :)

I wasn't holding it wide enough and was being too cautious with how far back I took it but doing it really slowly and carefully I can get it back that far.

Thanks again.

samos1
11-26-2005, 05:04 PM
Well I can say my shoulder health has improved a bit.. still out of training which is depressing. I can still feel a bit of pain (supraspintus related) I've been out for 5 weeks now, roughly how long does a suprispintus injury take to heal? (I did it via partial dislocation of the shoulder during combat, but the chief cause would have been abusing the shoulders with many presses, lateral raises and just generally belting them..)

Fallen_Horse
03-30-2006, 06:36 PM
First let me give a big THANKS to Bernie for the GREAT article. I was looking for information about my shoulder problem, and this is perfect.

One question, for the broomstick stretch, it says you are supposed to move the bar above your head and behind your back while keeping your arms straight? Personally, my arms only go to vertical without bending. Is this stretch still useful for me?

FX45
04-04-2006, 06:16 AM
best thread ever, bump.

RJM28
04-06-2006, 06:46 AM
Well I can say my shoulder health has improved a bit.. still out of training which is depressing. I can still feel a bit of pain (supraspintus related) I've been out for 5 weeks now, roughly how long does a suprispintus injury take to heal? (I did it via partial dislocation of the shoulder during combat, but the chief cause would have been abusing the shoulders with many presses, lateral raises and just generally belting them..)


How often should I do these exercises to rehab my shoulder. I have major problems doing any kinds of presses and things and I'd like it to get better before it gets worse. So I've taken a little time off and it's feeling better but I think I need to rehab it without injuring it or over doing it.

WeedyBloke
05-17-2006, 01:54 PM
bump tbh

samos1
05-20-2006, 04:40 PM
How often should I do these exercises to rehab my shoulder. I have major problems doing any kinds of presses and things and I'd like it to get better before it gets worse. So I've taken a little time off and it's feeling better but I think I need to rehab it without injuring it or over doing it.
I did this for 3-4x a week without training. I do it 2x a week or 3x a week now, once maybe by itself at home.. the others I just do a few rotations to warm the shoulders up prior to chest/back/shoulders..

I was thinking of getting a speedball for hand eye coordination, will this have a negative or positive affect on shoulder health? Any ideas?

whitesox3223
08-31-2006, 06:55 PM
Bump

Troutwine
09-22-2006, 08:06 AM
Good post, just about everything there is what my physical therapist told me to do after I had my shoulder cleaned out and rebuilt.
cleaned out :confused:

what was in it?

Anywyas, thanks Bernie!!!

When should these excercises be done?

Tomos
10-06-2006, 05:34 PM
bump

BernieD
11-29-2006, 07:02 PM
Sorry guys :(

I don't really come around BB.com much anymore, but I'm glad this thread has still been getting responses

To Troutwine...if you have access to this equipment at home, then it can't hurt to do it on OFF days, possibly at night so that overnight your shoulders will have time to rest. It really depends on your intensity though. If you were to do a full routine like this, with 3-4 different exercises, you'd probably want to do it on an OFF day or at night on a day you lift. But too much at once can get you really sore(even with these exercises). What I do now is dumbell internal and external rotations before EACH workout, 1-2 sets each. Then 5 days a week AT NIGHT I'll do the broomstick stretch, 40-50 reps. If I get tired I'll take a break, then get to 50. On OFF days then (so about 3x a week) I'll do a longer routine

Originally Posted by xueimelynnad
Good post, just about everything there is what my physical therapist told me to do after I had my shoulder cleaned out and rebuilt.

Wow, that's pretty flattering, heh.


In case you are just seeing this thread, please read the Version at the BOTTOM of page 1, post #27. It's an updated version (many many changes) from the version in post #1.

shinobidoode
03-18-2007, 01:39 PM
You think this will help with rounded shoulders?

Sabbra Cadabra
05-05-2007, 02:35 AM
wow, just injured my rotator cuff, definately looks great. Replied to find it easier next time and definately be reading. Thanks for the time taken to write this up. Much appreciated and the replies of wats worked and peoples experiences. Thanks.

Richie_Awesome
11-21-2007, 08:56 PM
Awesome thread.

Purostaff
12-02-2007, 10:57 AM
This thread is too awesome not to be bumped every week :D

Dominik
12-02-2007, 11:09 AM
Should be a sticky.

Richie_Awesome
12-02-2007, 11:19 AM
Should be a sticky.

Agreed.

ShotClock
12-26-2007, 07:28 PM
How far should one's rotation go in these exercises? I tried the cable one today for internal rotations and on the eccentric i tried to let my arm rotate far enough so that it was in line with my side, but then it started to hurt. I'm guessing this is going too far...

Also, I have a problem with the lying external rotations. Anyone else tend to mainly feel it in the bicep?

ITHURTZ
12-26-2007, 07:31 PM
LOL DONT go that far!!!

and doing this rotations you must keep your elbow to your side and pull level

HiTMe
12-27-2007, 11:54 PM
Great Thread!!

I was just wondering, what are some good chest/back excercises that work the muscle group but don't involve the shoulder?

hjayss
12-28-2007, 03:21 AM
You know ther are a lot of shoulder issues around here glad to see somebody put something together like this...

tbbuccaneer87
12-31-2007, 01:42 PM
would these exercises help with a should instability?

ITHURTZ
12-31-2007, 01:49 PM
the rc muscles is what holds the joint in its place, so naturally working them out and getting them stronger results in a stronger healthier shoulder

tbbuccaneer87
01-02-2008, 07:11 AM
sounds good. thanks.

jckedup616
03-08-2008, 07:22 PM
How often should I do this routine?

derzeps
06-27-2008, 06:59 AM
i pulled a muscle in my right shoulder three weeks ago and since the injury i've stopped lifting and began icing/heating the region. My shoulder pain stopped for the most part (i had some light pain but nothing too noticeable), so i decided to start lifting light weights yesterday. I just finished working out today and noticed a stiff-like feeling in my shoulder right after i finished a lift, and then sporatically throughout the day. Since i started lifting, my shoulder feels basically the same way it felt before i started lifting again. My question is should i keep lifting light weights, or should i quit lifting and go back to icing/heating and wait to start lifting again? Thanks

rhyko
07-29-2008, 07:39 AM
this was probably just as helpful as my phyiotherapist,

i need to strengthen back up my infraspinatus, teres minor and supraspinatus muscles, do you know any good exercises specifically to strengthen those 3 muscles? i use exercises similar to armwrestling movements.
any suggestions welcome

jdmalm123
07-29-2008, 06:24 PM
Sorry guys :(

I don't really come around BB.com much anymore, but I'm glad this thread has still been getting responses

Uh, fellas, the OP hasn't posted here since 11-29-2006!!!

Apparently, he's happy but completely unaware of your qeustions...try a PM or email, but who knows if he's still around...

Richie_Awesome
07-29-2008, 10:05 PM
My shoulder is injured, AGAIN

jdmalm123
07-30-2008, 03:40 AM
My shoulder is injured, AGAIN

no way. what did you do to it?

Dayroc
08-20-2008, 05:39 PM
Awesome~

I have just injured my shoulder about 1.5 weeks ago and was wondering why it is not healing (as with all other body parts it should heal!).

But after reading this and doing some exercises, i can feel my recovery already.

I can't wait to hit the gym.

Richie_Awesome
08-28-2008, 09:16 PM
Love it.

I'm always hurting my RC.

Richie_Awesome
08-28-2008, 09:17 PM
no way. what did you do to it?

I did 240 on incline, then did incline chest flys with the 75s. It was fine then, next day, insane pain.

For not, I'm never doing dumbell flyes again, and also sticking to dumbells with the incline press.

I mostly do floor presses and a powerlifting style now.

ALWAYS TUCK YOUR ELBOWS ON THE BENCH PRESS!!!

echoareone
09-07-2008, 02:34 PM
Here's a question for all you guys who are somewhat experienced, as it were, with RC stuff. I've got a shoulder issue that my physical therapist diagnosed as a weak rotator cuff and imbalance between anterior and posterior delts. I've been doing stretches and strengthening for about 4 months, and I've severely limited my lifiting, took 3 months off, and now I do 3x a week, light.

My shoulder still hasn't gotten that much better. Is there another injury that could be confused with RC?

outofshapetin
09-18-2008, 08:53 AM
Here's an article that I've alluded to a few times that I had been working on. It's finally finished. I hope you like the final product. If you have any suggestions or comments, please let me know. I'd be happy to hear constructive criticisms on the article. My goal with this article was to make a single body of text that contained enough information for people to be busy with for awhile. I hope that people like it enough that the next time someone posts a thread asking about a shoulder injury, that they will get linked to this thread. I have tried to cover a lot of material (not just "OK, here's some RC exercises, now go do them" and that's it), and I hope you get something out of it. Thanks in advance for reading this article--I put a lot of time into it, so I hope you like it.

very useful info. gracias amigo

seems
10-03-2008, 08:30 PM
That is some real nice article. i am going to take care when I work out that there is no such injuries.
Thank you!

RobotFood
10-06-2008, 10:08 AM
well, I'm glad this thread is routinely bumped! I've had a problem with my shoulder since overdoing a workout a few months back.. and spending long hours in front of a computer with my arm at an angle only added to the strain. this thread was exactly the kind of information I was looking for, and so I will be incorporating this stuff into my warm-up pronto.

cheers to the OP, wherever you may be these days!

rsrose007
10-21-2008, 07:23 AM
http://lhnweb.info/img/276/x08y1009qdcb/23.gif
Your quote was very informative.
actually i'm beginer to body building your information has helped me a lot.
I had doubt regarding exercise and training but this quote gave a massive information.
thank you very very very much!!!!
Nice of You
Keep posting like this
bye!!!sweet!!!

dEntremont
11-06-2008, 06:16 AM
Just thought I'd drop in to say that the information in this article has helped with my shoulder a lot. The last time I hurt my shoulder I took a month or so off but with the tips in this thread I've made much faster progress with my shoulder.

I'm just about back to normal and I am definitely going to make the external rotations and broomstick stretches a regular part of my routine. I know the OP doesn't hang out here anymore, but thanks!

motionOne
11-11-2008, 10:19 AM
ately, i've diagnosed myself with a minor rotator cuff issue. I'm pretty sure i did something to it using smith machine for benching, incline benching and especially smith seated shoulder press. I think i had the bench in a poor position relative to me, and pulled something that way. I also think i've exacerbated it by continuing to do heavy presses (shoulder, incline, flat) somewhat incorrectly (shoulderblades not back). That, and heavy overhead tricep extensions, which i've read rely heavily on rotator cuff.

So, today is supposed to be my shoulder/bicep day. Instead of doing my normal shoulder routine (standing MP, seated db press, plate raise, lateral raise), i'm going to do the following all with very light weight:

internal rotation 3x10
external rotation 3x10
cubans 3x10
scapular retraction 3x10

then, proceed to my bicep routine with normal weight.

so, my questions are these..

should i do these before every work out
should i cut my chest routine out until this feels better? (flat BP, incline BP, cable cross, wide chest iso machine)
should i not do any sort of shoulder exercises for a while?

has anyone else had a similar issue?? how have you incorporated these types of exercises into your routine? i don't want my shoulders to fall behind relative to the rest of my body.

squats, deads, any of my back or bi exercises don't hurt it so id on't plan on really modifying/stopping them

ndedekian
11-15-2008, 05:54 AM
Ok, so i'm having a very annoying and odd problem with my left shoulder. The initial injury occurred when I was wrestling my friend for fun about 3 years ago. He made the a-hole move of twisting my arm behind me. It went too far and I felt some pain initially but it went away. However immediately afterward it felt as though my shoulder needed to be stretched back out, like it was compressed somehow.

Since then i've been having that same feeling. It's in the rear of the shoulder but not so much the meaty part of the rear deltoid. It's basically right as the side of the shoulder bends around towards the back. It feels like I need someone to pull my shoulder out in front of me and pop it out. It's the biggest physical annoyance i've ever dealt with. Since then I haven't been able to get my shoulders as huge in my mind.

I have no range of motion problems, and I can still bench my normal weight and everything. It just feels like it's holding me back from hitting even more weight and feels like i've lost the explosiveness in the shoulder because it is not as stable. However i've always had a stiffer neck/shoulders so i'm not sure how much of this is just how I am. All I know is when I lift heavy incline and military press, the back of my shoulder starts acting up and feels inflamed. It pops alot but has never felt dislocated or anything.

I have no pain in the front of the shoulder (it's my non-throwing shoulder). It's only in the outer rear of the shoulder. Any ideas on what this could be?

KappaRaiders
11-16-2008, 06:43 PM
bernied, id rep you if i could. added these exercises to my routine 3 times so far and it's made AMAZING progress. shoulder doesn't hurt like it did anymore. now it just feels "wierd". we'll see what happens with chest day, but so far so good. this thread made a world of difference in my shoulder agitation. thanks.

Tallbill
11-24-2008, 10:56 PM
Anyone have a link to the broomstick exercise? Link is dead.

bango skank
11-24-2008, 11:15 PM
ifxxbWwzKio

blkbelt42
12-03-2008, 04:02 AM
subb'd for later reading. great thread.

Cosmonaut
12-12-2008, 06:02 PM
What does AC stand for? Acromion Complex?

Richie_Awesome
12-12-2008, 06:38 PM
What does AC stand for? Acromion Complex?

acromioclavicular joint

Richie_Awesome
12-12-2008, 06:40 PM
ately, i've diagnosed myself with a minor rotator cuff issue. I'm pretty sure i did something to it using smith machine for benching, incline benching and especially smith seated shoulder press. I think i had the bench in a poor position relative to me, and pulled something that way. I also think i've exacerbated it by continuing to do heavy presses (shoulder, incline, flat) somewhat incorrectly (shoulderblades not back). That, and heavy overhead tricep extensions, which i've read rely heavily on rotator cuff.

So, today is supposed to be my shoulder/bicep day. Instead of doing my normal shoulder routine (standing MP, seated db press, plate raise, lateral raise), i'm going to do the following all with very light weight:

internal rotation 3x10
external rotation 3x10
cubans 3x10
scapular retraction 3x10

then, proceed to my bicep routine with normal weight.

so, my questions are these..

should i do these before every work out
should i cut my chest routine out until this feels better? (flat BP, incline BP, cable cross, wide chest iso machine)
should i not do any sort of shoulder exercises for a while?

has anyone else had a similar issue?? how have you incorporated these types of exercises into your routine? i don't want my shoulders to fall behind relative to the rest of my body.

squats, deads, any of my back or bi exercises don't hurt it so id on't plan on really modifying/stopping them

Just general info. IMO. Cut out things like upright rows. Do all pushing with elbows tucked in(PM if you have Qs on that).

I'd do those exercises after any pushing or shoulder adduction. I do RC work 2x per week, one heavy workout, and one volume workout.

user345008781
12-17-2008, 11:56 AM
When doing these on a light weight e.g. 4-5kg for 10-12 reps for 4 sets should one feel at all sore the following. I felt i was positively pushing myself on the last rep or so on each set (not too much). My shoulder does not feel sore in the slightest unless I place my palm on my chest and push down using my arm (in which case i can feel a tiny bit of soreness on the upper deltoid region (around where the RC is). Is this okay? I don't have a history of RC injuries, just trying to strengthen them as i have the occasional click in my shoulders(along with other areas e..g ankles, wrists etc).

Thanks!

timmer77
12-17-2008, 10:30 PM
ately, i've diagnosed myself with a minor rotator cuff issue. I'm pretty sure i did something to it using smith machine for benching, incline benching and especially smith seated shoulder press. I think i had the bench in a poor position relative to me, and pulled something that way. I also think i've exacerbated it by continuing to do heavy presses (shoulder, incline, flat) somewhat incorrectly (shoulderblades not back). That, and heavy overhead tricep extensions, which i've read rely heavily on rotator cuff.

So, today is supposed to be my shoulder/bicep day. Instead of doing my normal shoulder routine (standing MP, seated db press, plate raise, lateral raise), i'm going to do the following all with very light weight:

internal rotation 3x10
external rotation 3x10
cubans 3x10
scapular retraction 3x10

then, proceed to my bicep routine with normal weight.

so, my questions are these..

should i do these before every work out
should i cut my chest routine out until this feels better? (flat BP, incline BP, cable cross, wide chest iso machine)
should i not do any sort of shoulder exercises for a while?

has anyone else had a similar issue?? how have you incorporated these types of exercises into your routine? i don't want my shoulders to fall behind relative to the rest of my body.

squats, deads, any of my back or bi exercises don't hurt it so id on't plan on really modifying/stopping them
Restrict the ROM to the upper half of the movement on any pressing, stay away from overhead stuff and heavy curling until the pain subsides.

Nothing against Richie...but I would not do direct heavy RC work, especially if the is an issue. It gets a ton of work during pressing (and pulling for that matter) of any kind. Endurance (volume) work is important to increase the time to fatigue, because you use the RC any time you use your arms. It needs to be able to.

Your warmup is good, keep it up!

Use a baseball to massage all of the muscles around your shoulder, this will help break up any scar tissue that is forming in there. And stretch the RC both internally and externally.

Also, take out the widegrip benching (unless it's light and for volume), and do your flyes from a cable machine or on a stability ball. This allows your scapula to move freely and does not cause a "prying" type force on the shoulder joint.

hope this helps!

timmer77
12-17-2008, 10:34 PM
When doing these on a light weight e.g. 4-5kg for 10-12 reps for 4 sets should one feel at all sore the following. I felt i was positively pushing myself on the last rep or so on each set (not too much). My shoulder does not feel sore in the slightest unless I place my palm on my chest and push down using my arm (in which case i can feel a tiny bit of soreness on the upper deltoid region (around where the RC is). Is this okay? I don't have a history of RC injuries, just trying to strengthen them as i have the occasional click in my shoulders(along with other areas e..g ankles, wrists etc).

Thanks!
Clicks and ticks are ok if there is no pain, probaly just a tendon "snapping", which just means it's rubbing up against a process of the bone. The pain when you press on your chest is just muscle soreness from directly working the RC. You are feeling your internal rotator or your subscapularis. It's the muscle that is used when pressing or throwing something.

Go easy on lifting until it subsides!

user345008781
12-18-2008, 02:41 AM
Clicks and ticks are ok if there is no pain, probaly just a tendon "snapping", which just means it's rubbing up against a process of the bone. The pain when you press on your chest is just muscle soreness from directly working the RC. You are feeling your internal rotator or your subscapularis. It's the muscle that is used when pressing or throwing something.

Go easy on lifting until it subsides!

No, there was no pain when i pressed my chest muscle, just some soreness on my upper delt region, which is better today (although not completely gone). I guess it is just my RC's adjusting to the exercise. They probably won't be sore next time. My next workout is not until Saturday anyway, so it has plenty of time to recover.

TLotou
12-20-2008, 10:31 AM
allright if anyone can help me out to kno whats wrong or give me an insight on what they think might be wrong .

first off what muscles exactly r involved in a side lateral raise?

whenever i do side lateral raise or if i do dumbell rows my rom is very limited becasue if my arm was to be locked out w/ a weight on the otherside there would be a sharp stinging pain in the back shoulder area , feels like the upper lats. the Pain started when i was doing dumbell rows a couple weeks ago , i was doing a set of 10 then at the end of the set i dropped my weight down, and i think the sudden change of tension in my muscle ****ed somethin up

anywho idk if its a hyper extension ?? prolly not a muscle tear cause i wouldnt be able to lift then...


anyone?

user345008781
12-20-2008, 11:11 AM
allright if anyone can help me out to kno whats wrong or give me an insight on what they think might be wrong .

first off what muscles exactly r involved in a side lateral raise?

whenever i do side lateral raise or if i do dumbell rows my rom is very limited becasue if my arm was to be locked out w/ a weight on the otherside there would be a sharp stinging pain in the back shoulder area , feels like the upper lats. the Pain started when i was doing dumbell rows a couple weeks ago , i was doing a set of 10 then at the end of the set i dropped my weight down, and i think the sudden change of tension in my muscle ****ed somethin up

anywho idk if its a hyper extension ?? prolly not a muscle tear cause i wouldnt be able to lift then...

anyone?


Hmmm. Do you feel a tendon sliding over your shoulder when you lift your arms up during lateral raises?

essawi
01-29-2009, 08:53 PM
Does this work for shoulder tendonitis?

essawi
01-30-2009, 04:42 PM
bump

amittiz
02-12-2009, 06:17 PM
Two weeks ago while doing dumbbell rows on a flat bench I felt a sharp pain in my left shoulders and I stopped immediately and did not do any weight lifting that irritates my shoulder for some time. The pain was not at the shoulder but near the front side into my collar bone (where the shoulder joins the collar bone) and when I sleep on that side it extends towards my side upto my biceps. Then one week later when the pain subsided I went and tried to do cable flyes for chest and I felt like something was loose in my shoulder joint but did not have much pain it was just like a slip in the joint when I did the exercise but the next day it started to pain again inside my collar bone. Day before yesterday I went to a doctor and he pressed on my shoulder and analyzed my situation and since I did not have any pain when he did that he told me it was not a tear and told me I could do those exercise that does not irritate my shoulder. So Yesterday i felt completely normal I did some pushups and the pain was not there so I felt confident and happy so I tried to do flat barbell bench-press I started out with very low weight 15lbs then 25 lbs and when I tried to increase the weight I felt the joint was getting loose and it was kind of some muscle in my shoulder joint is loose but it did not pain that much when I did the exercise It was just like something was moving around in my shoulder. But today I can feel some pain in the shoulder.

amittiz
02-12-2009, 06:19 PM
Am I not giving enough time for my shoulders to heal??

but this thread is amazin it has all the information I ever need for shoulder injury. But just curious how long should I take a time out ??

mkit8971
02-13-2009, 05:17 PM
My shoulder seemed to be a bit tweaked after a benching session, so i gave it a couple days. Went back to the gym and it still had a slight dull pain, so i finished up the workout and went home. Next session I did strictly RC exercises with light weight/high reps and the shoulder feels great right now. I honestly feel like I got a better shoulder workout today doing RC exercises then using heavy weights and doing arnold presses, military presses, etc. I will continue to warm up with some light RC exercises and reserve some time on my shoulder days to isolate the RC. I never realized how important training this muscle capsule could be.

amittiz
02-14-2009, 11:34 PM
Hi friends I found this link and I think it is very useful if you are suffering from a shoulder problem as I'm now. I know it is frustrating :(
http://www.t-nation.com/article/performance_training/creating_a_training_effect_when_youre_injured&cr

The Shoeless Wonder
02-18-2009, 08:15 PM
hopefully someone can help me with this: Until last week I wasnt working out for about 3 weeks or so due to an illness. About a week after I stopped lifting, I noticed a slight pain in my right shoulder (im righty). I really didnt think anything of it, until it would start hurting when I bowled. Last week I finally got back into the gym and while doing bench press, it was slightly bothersome. I also noticed that when I would do an overhead tri stretch, it was painful. Now yesterday, I was doing bench press and it was hurting, but only when I was using an overhand grip. I didnt notice anything with a hammer grip. I had to give up on cable flies tho. The pain is between the side and the rear of my shoulder and goes halfway down my tri. Also, around my right shoulder blade has been tight. Is this RC related? Are the 2 even related?

jscatton21
02-23-2009, 07:19 PM
i had a question i have been working out for like 3 months now... and for some reason the other day when i went to do incline bench press i got this extremely bad pain in the front of my right shoulder i was horrable.. people said i may have had to much weight on which was not true i only put a 10 on each side which i usually use 25's... anyidea what i may have done? the pain goes away within a few minutes but for those few minutes it is horrable and now it happens everytime i do incline but no pain at all on regular bench or decline.... i would be a great help to hear what you guys think it may be!!

jscatton21
02-23-2009, 07:32 PM
i had a question i have been working out for like 3 months now... and for some reason the other day when i went to do incline bench press i got this extremely bad pain in the front of my right shoulder i was horrable.. people said i may have had to much weight on which was not true i only put a 10 on each side which i usually use 25's... anyidea what i may have done? the pain goes away within a few minutes but for those few minutes it is horrable and now it happens everytime i do incline but no pain at all on regular bench or decline.... i would be a great help to hear what you guys think it may be!!

GluteStrength
02-24-2009, 05:50 PM
I stayed away from the gym for 3 weeks, did the RC exercises, I stretch and warm up regularly. First week back at the gym, just did mostly flat bench yesterday for chest. No pain while lifting or shortly thereafter, only until the next day during the afternoon did my left shoulder begin to feel kind of tight, much like a stiff neck, yet no pain. Is this okay to work out with and just avoid shoulders or should I go see a doc if the feeling persists?

jckedup616
02-24-2009, 06:59 PM
I stayed away from the gym for 3 weeks, did the RC exercises, I stretch and warm up regularly. First week back at the gym, just did mostly flat bench yesterday for chest. No pain while lifting or shortly thereafter, only until the next day during the afternoon did my left shoulder begin to feel kind of tight, much like a stiff neck, yet no pain. Is this okay to work out with and just avoid shoulders or should I go see a doc if the feeling persists?

from my experience if the pain is not to killing you or you cannot use your shoulder at all, the doctor will not do anything. He will advise you to go to a physical therapists which may actually help you. It wouldn't be bad to go to a real therapist for a few sessions.

GluteStrength
02-24-2009, 08:57 PM
from my experience if the pain is not to killing you or you cannot use your shoulder at all, the doctor will not do anything. He will advise you to go to a physical therapists which may actually help you. It wouldn't be bad to go to a real therapist for a few sessions.

Perhaps an MRI to see if maybe anything is unusually enlarged or damaged? I'll give it a shot either way, wouldn't hurt to see what he says. Also, I asked a couple guys in the gym and one of them suggested doing Deca since it repairs joints and ligaments he said lol. I'm not about to do it just because he said to and without enough research on the subject, but... any opinions? lol.

mkit8971
02-26-2009, 12:44 PM
I suggest an MRI. That'll provide you with a better answer and how to treat the problem. Good luck.

dtrryan
02-27-2009, 06:45 AM
Well you can listen to the ladies who lift little weights or you can read the article that every StrongMan competitor, is promoted by WestSide Barbell and the strongest bench pressers in the World, who are pressing over 800 - 1000 pounds.

You might want to pay attention since it is available in 22 languages.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drryan9.htm

Or you can go back and train with the girls, it is up to you!

BernieD
02-28-2009, 08:23 PM
Hello...well the OP is back from the dead. I just remembered this thread and thought I'd check on it. The last time I'd logged into BB.com was July 2008 haha. Nice to see I had a bunch of PMs waiting for me with questions. I can't answer everything from the thread, but a couple general comments.

If you have weak or rounded shoulders, do exercises for your posterior deltoid. This muscle is very weak in most people and leads to injuries. 2 exercises for the PD:

1) Reverse pec deck. Go on the peck deck machine and do the reverse fly on there.

2) My personal fav: Using the tricep pushdown machine, attach one a rope handle. Grab the rope and take several steps back from the machine. Have your elbows at chin level as you pull back on the rope, pulling the rope towards your head, almost touching your head. Then slowly release and repeat. Sorry for the bad explanation but it's hard to explain. Just remember to keep your elbows high and you will feel this in your posterior deltoids, the back of the shoulder.


Does this work for shoulder tendonitis?


Yes it may help. With tendonitis the important thing is rest, ice and heat. Then after a couple weeks do a few strengthening exercises.



I stayed away from the gym for 3 weeks, did the RC exercises, I stretch and warm up regularly. First week back at the gym, just did mostly flat bench yesterday for chest. No pain while lifting or shortly thereafter, only until the next day during the afternoon did my left shoulder begin to feel kind of tight, much like a stiff neck, yet no pain. Is this okay to work out with and just avoid shoulders or should I go see a doc if the feeling persists?

Well maybe you lifted too heavily on the flat bench. Some soreness after 3 weeks off is normal. If it persists, just go lighter on the weights. Even taking 3 weeks off from the gym, your strength will decrease by a lot. I forget the exact percentage, but I read that you lose a small amount of strength each week. So after 3 weeks, yea, you'd be weaker and you'd have to lift easy for a week or 2 to catch up.

chadobomber
03-06-2009, 07:07 AM
Hey guys,

Everyone claims that the article found at http://www.intens************/showthr...7&page=1&pp=25 works wonders for shoulder injuries. I'm having trouble accessing the page. Are the asterix's in the URL supposed to be there?

Wh][te Dev][L
03-06-2009, 11:34 AM
Hey guys,

Everyone claims that the article found at http://www.intens************/showthr...7&page=1&pp=25 works wonders for shoulder injuries. I'm having trouble accessing the page. Are the asterix's in the URL supposed to be there?
I have shoulder issues and did those broomstick stretches for a while and it got worse. Not to say that they won't work for some, just be careful.
If you have a nagging, what could be serious issue a MRI and consult with a shoulder specialist is a must.

jmac66
03-11-2009, 01:33 AM
Great article! I've suffered from a right shoulder impingement for years, and am just now recovering from the worst bout I've ever had. As a medical provider, I can say your advice was spot on what my physical therapists preach about shoulder injury and rehab. I also agree with your comment about not being able to diagnose over the internet... always see your provider!

Keep up the good work, and thanks again for the excellent article.

jmac66

atf8008
03-11-2009, 12:54 PM
Thanks for the great post. I really wasn't sure what was going on with my shoulder until I started some of the stretches you suggested. Thanks again. Great post.

GenghisKal
03-12-2009, 05:47 AM
I've just got into bodybuilding and feel extremely foolish for having suffered a shoulder injury so early. About 2 months ago I felt extreme pain in my right shoulder while doing flat bench presses but I continued (although not to maximum weight or failure), and then continued with the rest of my workout. I realise how stupid this was. I've had 2 months off, once the pain stopped I started doing some REALLY light raises and presses, and for a few weeks there was no pain, so last week I decided to start working out properly again. Now the pain is back and I've also noticed that there seems to be a part of my shoulder missing (I know it sounds daft), in between the front and rear deltoids and behind the middle one. This makes it look odd, whereas my left shoulder looks nice and rounded and feels full, there is a gap in my right one which is very clear when I run my hand along my shoulder towards my neck. This is very worrying because now I'm sure this is a serious injury and that surgery may be required. Anyway I'm going to a sports injury clinic tommorow to get a proper diagnosis, I just wanted to share this to get peoples thoughts and maybe some advice from bodybuilders who have experienced this about whether I can recover both strength and physical shape of the shoulder. So frustrating because I've recently made a massive lifestyle change, eating way healthier and getting more exercise, then getting into weight lifting, and now this has set me back.

KIDDROK
03-20-2009, 08:59 AM
one thing i didnt see mentioned is how long after an injury should you start rehabing it ? also that depends on the severity of the injury. some injuries need time before you start a rehab program. also ppl should keep in mind that they should ice after and ther are plenty of nutritionals to take also to speed up recovery. eg chondroiden,clucosamine,msm.fsn,fish oil,ibuprophen. I'm rehabing a seperated shoulder,torn muscle/tendons frm m.m.a training. needed a good 2 mos of resting it before trying to rehab,dr's orders. so i wanted to check out other ppl opinions on rehab & seems im on the right track. dam 2 lbs is heavy right now lol !

PBJTime
03-30-2009, 09:24 PM
I think you described my shoulder rehab protocol. I didn't read everything in depth yet, but it looks good from reading over it. If I could rep you right now I would (not that it would mean anything right now since I don't have "the power.")

Edit: I would recommend not doing the "empty can" exercise anymore for anyone doing these. That is kind of "old school" therapy. When performing that exercise, you are most certainly impinging the supraspinatus tendon when you go above about 45 degrees. In fact, this position (with the thumb down) is actually used in some tests to help diagnose shoulder pathology. The better way to do it is "full can" with your thumb up. In fact, any kind of exercise involving raising your arm up should be with the thumb up to externally rotate the humerus.

yoyohello
03-31-2009, 01:41 AM
hey guys, i think i injured my shoulder about 2 weeks ago. someone pulled my arms while i was sleeping and i felt a sharp pain in my shoulder (but it doenst bother me really). then i noticed teh pain while doing flat bench press, wide grip. anyway, i noticed taht when i do shoulder abduction (arms at the side, then raise them overhead, laterally), my shoulder has pain. this is the only stretch where there is pain; otherwise, i just have tightness. ideas? waht do you think it is?

Paul1981
04-08-2009, 02:57 AM
For a few days i have had pain in the front of my left shoulder like a dull aching. Today after doing floor press (i have no space for a bench) the pain increased a little and also appeared in my other shoulder. Something i have noticed is that compared to the rest of my body my shoulders are lagging behind in the weight they can take so im wondering rather than just lay off lifting for a while would it perhaps be a good idea to cut down on the weight im using and wait until my shoulder exercises have caught up with the rest of my body? Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

KarateLisa
04-08-2009, 12:06 PM
Bernie,

Thanks for the very informative post !

I've had a nagging RC issue from my martial arts training and was unsure how to deal with it in regards to my (new) weight lifting program. The information you provided is much appreciated !

Lisa

hxh_killua
04-09-2009, 07:53 PM
Hi there,

Last Sunday, was the first time I had felt shoulder discomfort when doing an exercise. While, I've done dumbbell flies before, I have never felt discomfort.

It's a discomfort/minor pain that has persisted this whole week. It feels like where the joint is deep inside my deltoids. Has anyone have the same experience? I'm not sure what to do. (rotator cuff exercises?)

I'm going to the doctors tomorrow but I know he'll just tell me to rest or take pain killers if the pain is severely bothering me.

I'm worried as I know how the body has to work coherently and a shoulder injury can really set anyone back.

bigart7803
04-14-2009, 03:59 AM
i have had a shoulder pain goin back to high school. i have always worked through it. it mainly hurts when i do incline or front lateral raises. would ur best opinion be that it might be injured or that it may just be that its not able to support the weight i do? i have lowered the weight, it doesnt hurt as much but still gets tender. another thing is when im doin these exercises sometimes i feel like my shoulder pops, kinda like 2 things are rubbing together and thats where the pain comes from. after reading the post im starting to think that it might be an injury. and on some of the exercises to recover i clicked on, and it would not display, could u put the links on again?

Thanks, Art

rockymp14
04-24-2009, 12:43 AM
most of the excersises you mentioned i am familiar with and have used them from time to time and they do work. Any way my question is about my posture. when i lift weights i notice that my left shoulder sits higher than my right one. i played baseball for 12yrs and am wondering if this could be cause of my right side hanging lower. this does effect me lifting weights everything from straight bar curls to benching. however my left delt is shaped much better that the right one. thanks and any suggestions would be great.

isosceles
04-24-2009, 02:15 AM
xpost as this seems to be the more up to date shoulder thread:

man you all want to talk about depressing.. I'm 20 and just got my 2nd shoulder surgery (on the same shoulder) on Feb 5th. I had about 10 dislocations before my first surgery, which lasted about 3 years before the next dislocation - which annoyingly enough happened when I twisted my arm the wrong way trying to catch a LOB football pass... from 5 yards away. Yeah, I suck.
About 4 more dislocations later, all of them occurring while I was asleep, we realized that it was definitely time for emergency surgery. That is a less-than-fun way to wake up, btw.
Like a lot of guys in here, the doctors/MRIs couldn't find a single thing wrong with my shoulder. In the end, I went to the best guy I could find in Miami (he does most of the pro sports teams shoulders/knees in the area) and said "just open me up and fix what you decide needs to be fixed." It was pretty ugly. Tears everywhere, I was missing about 25% of my bone from the scraping it went through on post-surgery dislocations, just ugly ugly stuff.
Yeah, it was pretty depressing the first time around, and even more so now. I had 3 months of recovery before, and this one was given about 8 months so I'll be ecstatic if I somehow make it back in time for soccer in September. The pain has JUST finally gone away, and physical therapy is going pretty solidly. I've got 95% ROM back already on everything except external rotation and reaching behind my back. Those are still going pretty slowly, but that's what the surgery was repairing.
Also, during one of my physical therapy sessions, my right shoulder slipped doing an exercise. Scary as ****, but it went right back in within half a second and feels fine now.

Gl to everyone else going through this right now. Just think how much more we will enjoy working out as opposed to those who have never been injured, since we know what it is like to completely be UNABLE to do it.

Blindead
04-25-2009, 11:08 PM
Do you guys know any way to improve shoulder mobility? I have....horrible...shoulder mobility. I tried doing those "shoulder dislocation" things and I literally can't do it no matter how wide I go. The stretch where you drop a towel over your back and pull the other arm up with? My left arm can touch my neck easily but my right can barely get between my shoulder blades without inching up.

Burzmali
05-15-2009, 08:49 PM
I tried the stretch listed in the article, the one wear you get a 90 degree angle at the elbow and put your hand behind your back as far as comfortable.

With my left arm, I can get it up touching the right shoulder blade. With the right arm (injured probably), I can only get it barely reaching midway up my back.

This is a really good sign something is wrong, correct?

Other symptoms: the right shoulder is extremely loose. I can sort of dislocate it at will by just flexing the shoulder a certain way.

I think it might be related to my upper back pain, I think that my body is sort of slanted like this: (exaggerated in this drawing)

[x is torso, - is arm, looking straight down as if above me]

xx--
--xx


Any ideas on what the problem could be?

Blindead
05-15-2009, 10:18 PM
I have the same problem with mobility in that stretch. Getting an MRI soon...I'll let you know, lol.

7amad123
05-21-2009, 11:03 AM
First, begin your exercise with a five-minute warm-up period such as slow walking or easy-paced bike riding. A slow gentle warm-up is a lot more effective than stretching in preventing injury to your muscles.

Stretching is important to maintain flexibility, but it's best to stretch at the end of your warm-up period. Even stretching can injure your muscles and tendons if done too vigorously when you're still cold. Another point to remember about stretching is that it should be static. This means you should hold the stretched position for at least 10 to 20 seconds before repeating or advancing the stretch. Never use a bouncing type of stretching, such as quick repeated toe touching, because it can cause injury.

Cooling-down with slow activity for five minutes at the end of your exercise period is important for your heart and for your muscles and tendons. Stopping exercise abruptly will release a large amount of adrenaline-like hormones in your body, which can cause a sudden stress to your heart. Continue to walk slowly after completing your run, or cycle slowly for 5 minutes at the end of your ride. A proper cool-down will also rid the muscles of lactic acid, which is built up during exercise. This will help prevent muscle stiffness and soreness following exercise.

Good foot protection is well worth the investment. If you need to buy new shoes, they should provide adequate arch support, some firmness or stiffness to the part of the shoe behind the heel, and padding behind the heel to prevent friction against the Achilles tendon and heel bone. Also, there should be enough thickness to the sole of the shoe to absorb shock well and minimize the pounding to your joints.

Variety is important. Use more than one kind of exercise to avoid constantly using your muscles or joints in the same way each time. If you like to swim regularly, alternate occasionally with biking, walking or even vigorous low-impact dancing.


Finally, the guiding principle for injury prevention is to listen to your body. You don't need to have pain to gain in fitness. Rest when you're tired. You may have chosen an activity that doesn't match your current level of fitness or your skill level. Allow yourself time and training to gradually improve.

Blindead
05-26-2009, 01:37 PM
Torn rotator cuff, awesome.

naaaaaaaaaaaat.

f my life.

Burzmali
05-27-2009, 10:52 PM
Torn rotator cuff, awesome.

naaaaaaaaaaaat.

f my life.

wat...

you serious??

how could you be benching 200+ with a torn rotator cuff. you are starting to scare me now, because i always thought "no way i have a torn RC b/c i put up 225 on bench that makes no sense".

Burzmali
06-12-2009, 04:07 PM
wat...

you serious??

how could you be benching 200+ with a torn rotator cuff. you are starting to scare me now, because i always thought "no way i have a torn RC b/c i put up 225 on bench that makes no sense".

bump

Blindead
06-12-2009, 04:54 PM
*** partially torn rotator cuff. well, supraspinatus (part of the RC). my bad lulz. it's not a full tear. and before going to the doctor finally about the pain...2 weeks before going i got 195x5 clean. the next week i got 195 twice. before i started getting pain i was getting 225x5. and it's not a large partial tear either.

bigman334
06-12-2009, 05:53 PM
hey guys. i know shoulder problems are really hit or miss when trying to diagnose through an explanation. however i feel as though my problem isnt major. it cant be or else i wouldnt be able to still do some of the lifts i do. The area's it hurts most is when i do a lift that requires me to lift weight up and over such as any type of bench press or military press. the seated press where you have to sorta lift your arms back then up to get the bar is a bitch and hurts the most. i'll tell you what is strange about my injury is that it seems to be a problem with the part of the shoulder that is responsible for pulling up. at my job i am constantly lifting 15 lb's or so in a pulling up motion and sometimes pulling up while my arm is extended to lift the object. i'm almost certain this is a reason i cant heal. lets say i put my hand in a clapping motion and hold them together and press really hard, i can feel slight pain in that area thats bothering me. Getting in the pec dec is a bitch as that placing of my arm back and up is a bitch. If i stand up with my arms extended out parallell to the ground i begin to feel the pain in that shoulder. it's almost as if a joint is too weak. all of those problems IMO come back to the same problem that i have. it's almost as if extending across my body hurts although extending behind is not a problem. so is that protraction or rectraction? any help would be appreciated. i'd also like to state that i could probably bench 205 for reps with this injury though be in some pain. the wider the grip the more pain. i can military press 135 for reps with this injury with a slightly closer grip with a little pain. now that i mention military press, the motion of picking the weight up off the ground then transferring it up right at the switch of the wrist i can feel it and sometimes hear it pop. this is with standing barbell presses. Again, somewhat of a pulling up motion causing the problem. the more i type the more i realize my shoulder is probably ****ed.

Blindead
06-12-2009, 06:02 PM
It's probably tendonitis somewhere in your shoulder, where the shoulder attaches to the bicep, or in your rotator cuff. Those symptoms are pretty similar to mine.

bigman334
06-12-2009, 06:31 PM
It's probably tendonitis somewhere in your shoulder, where the shoulder attaches to the bicep, or in your rotator cuff. Those symptoms are pretty similar to mine.

where it attaches to the bicep huh.. that would explain why it feels funky with pulling motions. even heavy hammer curls feel weird. at least i'm getting somewhere now.

Blindead
06-12-2009, 06:48 PM
where it attaches to the bicep huh.. that would explain why it feels funky with pulling motions. even heavy hammer curls feel weird. at least i'm getting somewhere now.

well, rather, where the bicep attaches to the shoulder. the tendon there. you could also be impinged...have bursitis. the treatment for bursitis is about the same as tendonitis though. you could possibly have a type 2 acromiom which would cause irritation and inflammation too, but that's just a hypothetical and probably isn't the case.

bigman334
06-13-2009, 07:22 AM
well, rather, where the bicep attaches to the shoulder. the tendon there. you could also be impinged...have bursitis. the treatment for bursitis is about the same as tendonitis though. you could possibly have a type 2 acromiom which would cause irritation and inflammation too, but that's just a hypothetical and probably isn't the case.

now that you mention that. if i stand up and mimic an incline type pressing movement with my bum shoulder i can feel the pain. but when i take my other hand and press down really hard right in the middle where you see the separation of the shoulder and the front long part of the bicep i dont feel the pain. interesting. thats a pretty big find in determining my problem it seems.

manONfire
06-24-2009, 12:19 PM
thx great thread

Blindead
06-24-2009, 02:08 PM
now that you mention that. if i stand up and mimic an incline type pressing movement with my bum shoulder i can feel the pain. but when i take my other hand and press down really hard right in the middle where you see the separation of the shoulder and the front long part of the bicep i dont feel the pain. interesting. thats a pretty big find in determining my problem it seems.

Try pushing it around in the middle of your medial deltoid. That's where most of my pain is.

shou
06-30-2009, 09:07 AM
First at all, i would like to thank you Bernie for the time you took to write this very rich and interesting topic on shoulder and RC injury/rehab.

Furthermore, since i had a bankart surgery on my shoulder 3 years ago (and my infraspinatus is still a bit sensible), i would like to know if i should train specifically my infraspinatus (which is sane according to IRM and echography exam) with external rotation exercise in spite the fact it becomes quickly relatively painful (my physician told me i must train it even it is a bit painful) ?

I ask the question because i've heard infraspinatus is very important to work for preventing other RC injurys but so i don't know really what to do (work it or not ?).

Thank you by advance for all your advices and experience !

Sorry for my poor english (i'm a french guy).

Greeting

P.S : on the advice of my physician, i've started back light weight lifting (non painful exercises such lateral raises up to 70-80?, front raise to 70-80?, bent over rows, chest exercises with cables....)

shou
07-01-2009, 02:45 AM
First at all, i would like to thank you Bernie for the time you took to write this very rich and interesting topic on shoulder and RC injury/rehab.

Furthermore, since i had a bankart surgery on my shoulder 3 years ago (and my infraspinatus is still a bit sensible), i would like to know if i should train specifically my infraspinatus (which is sane according to IRM and echography exam) with external rotation exercise in spite the fact it becomes quickly relatively painful (my physician told me i must train it even it is a bit painful) ?

I ask the question because i've heard infraspinatus is very important to work for preventing other RC injurys but so i don't know really what to do (work it or not ?).

Thank you by advance for all your advices and experience !

Sorry for my poor english (i'm a french guy).

Greeting

P.S : on the advice of my physician, i've started back light weight lifting (non painful exercises such lateral raises up to 70-80?, front raise to 70-80?, bent over rows, chest exercises with cables....)

Any opinion on my infraspinatus's problem ?

Staxed1989
07-01-2009, 05:27 AM
First at all, i would like to thank you Bernie for the time you took to write this very rich and interesting topic on shoulder and RC injury/rehab.

Furthermore, since i had a bankart surgery on my shoulder 3 years ago (and my infraspinatus is still a bit sensible), i would like to know if i should train specifically my infraspinatus (which is sane according to IRM and echography exam) with external rotation exercise in spite the fact it becomes quickly relatively painful (my physician told me i must train it even it is a bit painful) ?

I ask the question because i've heard infraspinatus is very important to work for preventing other RC injurys but so i don't know really what to do (work it or not ?).

Thank you by advance for all your advices and experience !

Sorry for my poor english (i'm a french guy).

Greeting

P.S : on the advice of my physician, i've started back light weight lifting (non painful exercises such lateral raises up to 70-80?, front raise to 70-80?, bent over rows, chest exercises with cables....)

I fit hurts then just try different movements e.g. if you can't do the basic DB external rotations, try doing cable or thera band rotations, or even face pulls with external rotation towards the end, or even cuban rotations. There are always ways around these problems.

Good luck!

low blow
07-01-2009, 07:10 AM
http://billhartman.blogspot.com/2006/11/bodybuilders-shoulderare-you-at-risk.html

The reason that experienced weight lifters hurt their shouldnt isn't because of weak external rotators IMO, it's probably more related to have an imbalance between the medial scapula rotators (ie the rhomboids and levatore scapulae) vs. the lateral scapula rotators (serratus anterior, upper trapezisu).

as the serratus/subscap is an extremely important muscle for any overhead or pressing movements, i think they're worth a mention in the "rehab" guide.

http://www.bertec.com/publications/research/papers_products/Decker-AJSM-2003.pdf

outlines some great subscapularis exericses

IMO the push up plus should be a mainstay in any weight lifters routine for its serratus and subscap activation

I'm actually going to go out on a limb and say that the subscap is more of a stabiliser of the anterior part of the shoulder capsule then it is an internal rotator - the above article mentions traditional IR's as being the worst for activating the subscap.

but of course everybody has an individual case that needs to be anaylsed. Making broad assumptions never helps anybody

blast00
07-30-2009, 12:00 PM
what is the website guys that is asterixed out? can someone please PM it to me for reps.

blast00
08-04-2009, 06:12 AM
when doing these:


Cable Seated Shoulder Internal Rotation

do you rotate from your shoulder or from your elbow? its hard for me to rotate from my shoulder, rotating from my elbow feels much more natural and i guess my shoulder rotates too when doing this?

but which way is it supposed to be done?

jared07
08-04-2009, 05:55 PM
Thanks for the great write up/info...After having shoulder surgery 2 months ago, this will defiantly help me get back into the swing of things



-jared

Blindead
08-04-2009, 05:56 PM
when doing these:


Cable Seated Shoulder Internal Rotation

do you rotate from your shoulder or from your elbow? its hard for me to rotate from my shoulder, rotating from my elbow feels much more natural and i guess my shoulder rotates too when doing this?

but which way is it supposed to be done?

you rotate at your elbow. it also rotates your RC, you just cant see it. put your hand on your back where your RC can be felt and you'll feel it move during rotations.

Mnx4
09-08-2009, 10:39 PM
Hey, first off, thanks for this thread. I've had some shoulder discomfort for the past couple of weeks and didn't even think about strengthening my rotator cuff.
So a few weeks ago, I was in the middle of doing tricep rope pull downs when there was a sharp pain in my left shoulder. I was pulling the rope down, rope braids together, and when I reached the bottom, pulled the braids outward. It was during that outward movement when I had the pain. Since then, I've reduced weight a little and let my arms naturally pull the strands apart rather than actively pulling them apart and it's been alright. However, the discomfort still remains. It's a very, very dull ache which seems to resurface after flexion or tension. I had noted in my last shoulder exercise log that my left arm could not lift a dumbbell as high as my right arm of equal weight (towards the end of each set). I don't remember there being much of a problem with chest exercises, but I'll find out when I go tomorrow.
Anyway, I know it's not a lot of information, but does this sound like I'm leading myself towards a rotator cuff injury? Is there any way to pin it on whether it's a muscle, joint or a nerve issue? Thanks.

GluteStrength
09-21-2009, 09:23 PM
I've had some minor impingement before in my past and aches, I finally saw a physical therapist about it who claimed that my traps and pec (where it connects to the front part of the shoulder) were overactive and somehow putting stress on my shoulder. After 4 weeks of Physical therapy, one day a week, she said since I could do reps and a few sets there was no injury and discharged me from physical therapy. So here I am happy to be back in the gym starting out slow again, when the pain and tightness and fatigue is STILL there several months after being let go from PT (and the amount of weight I'm using is nowhere near what it used to be). What should I do? Get an MRI? Does this PT know what she's talking about?

Blindead
09-21-2009, 09:25 PM
Hey, first off, thanks for this thread. I've had some shoulder discomfort for the past couple of weeks and didn't even think about strengthening my rotator cuff.
So a few weeks ago, I was in the middle of doing tricep rope pull downs when there was a sharp pain in my left shoulder. I was pulling the rope down, rope braids together, and when I reached the bottom, pulled the braids outward. It was during that outward movement when I had the pain. Since then, I've reduced weight a little and let my arms naturally pull the strands apart rather than actively pulling them apart and it's been alright. However, the discomfort still remains. It's a very, very dull ache which seems to resurface after flexion or tension. I had noted in my last shoulder exercise log that my left arm could not lift a dumbbell as high as my right arm of equal weight (towards the end of each set). I don't remember there being much of a problem with chest exercises, but I'll find out when I go tomorrow.
Anyway, I know it's not a lot of information, but does this sound like I'm leading myself towards a rotator cuff injury? Is there any way to pin it on whether it's a muscle, joint or a nerve issue? Thanks.

It sounds like the pains occuring during external rotation of the rotator cuff, which yes, would be a rotator injury. Try keeping off of your shoulders completely for a few weeks and then do rotator cuff exercises.

josephinedalton
10-03-2009, 07:38 PM
OUTSTANDING

Had surgery June of 2008 (decompression, bone spur removal, clean out, AC ligament release) and my overall pain has decreases but I am left with reduced performance in other exercises, although I am able to perform most deltoid exercises with lower weights and higher reps.

I plan to incorporate this into my RC program ! !
THANK YOU

OneBetter
10-08-2009, 03:54 PM
I've had some minor impingement before in my past and aches, I finally saw a physical therapist about it who claimed that my traps and pec (where it connects to the front part of the shoulder) were overactive and somehow putting stress on my shoulder. After 4 weeks of Physical therapy, one day a week, she said since I could do reps and a few sets there was no injury and discharged me from physical therapy. So here I am happy to be back in the gym starting out slow again, when the pain and tightness and fatigue is STILL there several months after being let go from PT (and the amount of weight I'm using is nowhere near what it used to be). What should I do? Get an MRI? Does this PT know what she's talking about?

first, stress on your shoulder is very vague.

second, yes it is possible. in basic terms - pec major essentially originates from your sternum up and around to your clavicle and inserts into your humerus. pec minor essentially runs from your 3rd, 4th, and 5th ribs to upper part of the scapula. it may help to think about their orientation in the body when asking your question. think about how they could stress your shoulder if they were pulling on the bones they insert into.

third, it could be a muscular imbalance. meaning one set of muscles is overpowering another set, causing discomfort. i would also add that one day a week seems a little light on the therapy. what did she recommend you do for exercises, and did you do them as she said?

nick1990
10-14-2009, 01:18 AM
i injured my shoulder throwing a baseball a week ago today.

I feel pretty bad pain while doing a "cuban press" movement so i believe its the RC.
hurts mainly on the part when i begin to rotate my arms upward btw.
The pain also shoots to my rear delt as well.

cuban press:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_VOInmUeAew&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_VOInmUeAew&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

I would always just let it heal by itself and when it did i would just go back to training, but after reading this article i want to try to strengthen it to prevent future injury.

I actually wanted to know when it would be best to begin strengthening it?

any help would be appreciated

jckedup616
10-25-2009, 09:26 PM
My shoulder gets extremely sore when I do any type of press exercise on chest day. The soreness is so bad that I cannot do any chest exercises. It is also slightly effected when I do pull movements for my back and biceps.

The soreness is coming from the large muscle that runs from the bicep to the collar bone. There is no pain just extreme soreness.

I followed your rehab guide for about a month and I saw no improvement. In fact, it seems worse now. I did not do any chest stuff during that month and I did not strain myself on other exercises.

So am I out of luck??

Mr.Leather
11-05-2009, 08:38 PM
yup

Thedss
12-02-2009, 07:23 PM
I have been lifting seriously for around 2 years now. Over this time, I continued to participate in varsity basketball for my school team. Sometime over this summer after playing pickup, I noticed an odd shooting type pain in my upper left arm, which i could not quite locate. I did not think much of it and kept lifting/playing basketball and it didnt get worse at all. I took an advil before working out as precaution, and began to warm up and cool down as well. However, a couple of months ago, I noticed that after chest day, my shoulders would be more sore than normal, and would take a couple more days to recover. Also, after playing basketball, my shoulders would get a bit more pain than before. I began to read things on the internet, and self diagnosed myself with rotator cuff tendonitis,
although a mild form, as my ROM and pain was not TOO bad.

Around this time I decided to go to my family doctor for proper diagnosis. My Doc is not very good with sports injuries and said I had milf shoulder tendonitis and just do RICE. A waste of time, except for that i got a referal to physical therapy. The physical therapist said the same thing, and said i should lay off my shoulder for a month and go to therapy, and it will be better. The problem is, I cant lay off my shoulder because I am in the middle of basketball season, and am into lifting too much. By the way, I was still making gains during this time. I encountered a major problem however. My shoulders, and body in general, was staying sore for too long, so i had to change my workout plan. I switched from a 5 day split, to a split in which i worked my upper body twice a week and legs once. My goal in this split is to give my body more rest so I can still lift.

This is where I am at now. A major problem so far in this program has been that after 3x benchpress lets say, my whole upperbody is fatigued for some reason. I can lift effectively for a couple excercises, but after that my strength goes down significantly. I am also warming up for 10 mins before and 10 mins after, doing special stretches and movements for the tators. Also, I am going to physical therapy twice a week, taking MSM/Glucosamine/Chondritin, and doing rotator excersises on my off days AND playing basketball. My shoulders are not getting better, and i am worried and frustratetd. I see my friends at the gym doing what they are doing and I am afraid I will get left behind.

NOTE: I feel the pain most after a set when I put the weight down, and I have completely eliminated barbell incline press and direct shoulder work. I stretch everyday, and have a good ROM, but the shoulders are stiff.

Thank you for reading this long post, and i look forward to getting help. Cheers

Finnegan Bell
12-03-2009, 12:49 AM
My pain goes away with Broomstick stretch ,but returns again after a couple of hours. I also bought a dumbbell to do rotations at home. Still have this pain near the biceps when I fly my arms back.

Sauce-head
12-05-2009, 02:46 PM
Hey Guys,

I've become extremely frustrated with my shoulder/bicep pain. Got diagonosed with Impingement of my left shoulder about 5 months ago. Immediately started seeing a PT who told me the common thing: strength your RC and you'll be fine. Started doing internal/external rotations about 3x a week and the pain definitely subsided significantly.

However if I didn't do my RC exercises for even a week after going a couple months strong, the pain would return.

I now noticed that while the pain in my shoulder was still there on pressing movements, it was much more tolerable, however my bicep was causing more pain than anything else.

I started seeing a specialist who introduced me to Active Release Therapy. It definitely made a difference, but he asked me to not go to the gym during this time (about 6 weeks). Figured the rest would do me good anyway. He used Granston on me (a tool to release inflammation for those not familiar, hurts like a byatch btw) and said I have A LOT of scar tissue build up in my left bicep.

After about 6 weeks of stability and core rehab with him, I started going to the gym again. However after a few weeks, the bicep tendonitis is STILL present. When I lift my shoulder over-head I clearly hear a cracking sound.

I went to the gym a couple days ago and did light bicep work and there was some pain and it basically feels like very little if any blood is going to the arm.

I've started the recommending rehab here again: Broomstick, internal/external rotations, but I'm wondering if I should be doing some type of specific rehab for my bicep that's killing me.

BTW the pain is at the inner bend of my elbow, the tendon that runs up to my shoulder. I've also been icing, but I'm starting to wonder if my impingement is under control and my issue is now strictly bicep tendonitis???

Any thoughts of advice?? Would an MRI be necessary?? I'm hoping I don't have a tear???


Thanks for the help,



SH

Blindead
12-05-2009, 03:14 PM
My pain goes away with Broomstick stretch ,but returns again after a couple of hours. I also bought a dumbbell to do rotations at home. Still have this pain near the biceps when I fly my arms back.

I think I know the bicep "pain" you refer to. I get it when stretching my sub-scapularis. It just means you have tight biceps, since they don't get stretched much. Try loosening them up a little bit, but don't go overboard.

Deet.er
01-03-2010, 01:30 PM
Great article BernieD! Its nice to see all this info gathered in one nice spot. I had a question, 3 weeks ago I was doing military presses behind my head (stupid yes, now I know but its too late) with the heaviest weight I had ever done on military presses (115lb), I was lifting the weight fine and was about to finish my last rep of my last until until my shoulder gave out and felt like something popped out and back in - I've never had any sort of feeling remotely close to what I felt then. Luckily I had a spotter who caught the bar. But anyways, it sounds like I have an AC injury since it happened while lifting over my head. Now, 3 weeks later, I have full ROM with little to no pain. I did dumbbell presses with 50lb's and my shoulder hurt a bit the next day. I'm incorporating internal and external rotations into my workout plan so that I do them 3 times per week. I'm obviously going to have to do lighter weight for a bit but how long do you suspect I will have to lay off barbell benching with complete reps for?

weegee
01-11-2010, 12:07 AM
great work

low blow
02-19-2010, 01:54 AM
Hey Guys,

I've become extremely frustrated with my shoulder/bicep pain. Got diagonosed with Impingement of my left shoulder about 5 months ago. Immediately started seeing a PT who told me the common thing: strength your RC and you'll be fine. Started doing internal/external rotations about 3x a week and the pain definitely subsided significantly.

However if I didn't do my RC exercises for even a week after going a couple months strong, the pain would return.

I now noticed that while the pain in my shoulder was still there on pressing movements, it was much more tolerable, however my bicep was causing more pain than anything else.

I started seeing a specialist who introduced me to Active Release Therapy. It definitely made a difference, but he asked me to not go to the gym during this time (about 6 weeks). Figured the rest would do me good anyway. He used Granston on me (a tool to release inflammation for those not familiar, hurts like a byatch btw) and said I have A LOT of scar tissue build up in my left bicep.

After about 6 weeks of stability and core rehab with him, I started going to the gym again. However after a few weeks, the bicep tendonitis is STILL present. When I lift my shoulder over-head I clearly hear a cracking sound.

I went to the gym a couple days ago and did light bicep work and there was some pain and it basically feels like very little if any blood is going to the arm.

I've started the recommending rehab here again: Broomstick, internal/external rotations, but I'm wondering if I should be doing some type of specific rehab for my bicep that's killing me.

BTW the pain is at the inner bend of my elbow, the tendon that runs up to my shoulder. I've also been icing, but I'm starting to wonder if my impingement is under control and my issue is now strictly bicep tendonitis???

Any thoughts of advice?? Would an MRI be necessary?? I'm hoping I don't have a tear???


Thanks for the help,



SH

great sauce head

it sounds like your getting pain in the front of the shoulder ?

http://shoulderpaininfo.com/shoulderBicepsTend.html

basically this tendon indicates a dysfunctional shoulder since it plays a role in stability of the shoulder - or more specifically anterior stability + reinforcing the glenoid labrum (the ring of tissue that helps keep your humerus, the arm bone, inside its place on the scapula). Constant inflammation of this tendon can mean a couple things such as anterior instability, a rotator cuff tear or dysfunction or a SLAP lesion.

so yes, to rule out 2 of the above 3 you will need an MRI

sounds like tendinosis also, which should come up on the MRI - this is irregular collagen in the tendon that isnt as strong as normal tissue.

So firstly

1) find a good shoulder specialist who can manage your shoulder
2) get MRI
3) report back

Sauce-head
02-25-2010, 11:06 PM
great sauce head

it sounds like your getting pain in the front of the shoulder ?

http://shoulderpaininfo.com/shoulderBicepsTend.html

basically this tendon indicates a dysfunctional shoulder since it plays a role in stability of the shoulder - or more specifically anterior stability + reinforcing the glenoid labrum (the ring of tissue that helps keep your humerus, the arm bone, inside its place on the scapula). Constant inflammation of this tendon can mean a couple things such as anterior instability, a rotator cuff tear or dysfunction or a SLAP lesion.

so yes, to rule out 2 of the above 3 you will need an MRI

sounds like tendinosis also, which should come up on the MRI - this is irregular collagen in the tendon that isnt as strong as normal tissue.

So firstly

1) find a good shoulder specialist who can manage your shoulder
2) get MRI
3) report back



Thanks for the reply bro. I think your definitely right on a few things here. I've got some posture/shoulder instability (cracking) and definitely have bicep tendonosis.

I've been doing massage therapy (cross fiber) for the past 6 weeks and it seems to have helped some, but I still feel the discomfort at the inner bend of my elbow.

I just started eccentrics tonight and can feel something happening! haha I'll keep this up for at least 6-8 weeks and see how it responds.

I don't have any inflammation, but I do feel dull pain in belly of the bicep from time to time and also have pain when I sleep on that side.

Do you have any tips on a good eccentric routine for my bicep?

I'm kinda a noob on eccentrics....


Thanks bro, I'll keep you posted and look forward to your reply.



SH

dancingduck
02-26-2010, 12:18 AM
Thank you so much.. I just posted a question you answered in this write up.. and am suffering from this type of injury.

***8ness8***
03-05-2010, 02:24 PM
I've always worked out my shoulders evenly however for some reason I have this awkard "lean" or imbalance to my shoulder where my right should hangs about an inch lower than my left one... My strength seems to be equal with both shoulder however, any suggestions on how to fix this?

jckedup616
03-06-2010, 04:52 PM
I've always worked out my shoulders evenly however for some reason I have this awkard "lean" or imbalance to my shoulder where my right should hangs about an inch lower than my left one... My strength seems to be equal with both shoulder however, any suggestions on how to fix this?

x2

I injured my right shoulder, tried to work through the pain, went through physical therapy and still my right shoulder droops

I think part of the problem lies in the traps. The traps basically hold your shoulder in place. Hold your shoulders back when you do trap work and any other work

Sami76
03-13-2010, 08:29 AM
This thread is awesome. A lot of info to absorb! Major props to the OP and other contributors. I've had chronic pain in both shoulders for over a decade now and it's really put a damper not only on shoulder training, but also on benching. One of the first things I'm going to try is that broomstick exercise.

calorier710
03-17-2010, 12:32 AM
Thanks for your posts. They are really very cool, very wonderful

Aries21
03-30-2010, 09:24 PM
when i turn my arm into my body, forearm across my chest, my shoulder is in pain.. rc injury?

jckedup616
04-01-2010, 02:53 PM
when i turn my arm into my body, forearm across my chest, my shoulder is in pain.. rc injury?

could be a problem with the bicep tendon. I still have lingering tendonitis and when i do that motion it hurts in the bicep tendon

19JasonB93
04-11-2010, 06:21 AM
my shoulder pops out when lifted straight above the head or jsur behind it. do u have any rehab for this.

pev
05-14-2010, 09:54 PM
my shoulder pops out when lifted straight above the head or jsur behind it. do u have any rehab for this.

if its popping out that easily id recommend seeing an orthopedic surgeon for advice

boultwood
06-02-2010, 03:00 PM
Helped me with my trick shoulder. Thanks

guest89
06-07-2010, 12:50 PM
Great thread. I've been suffering from an injured shoulder for awhile (6+ months) and realized training through the pain simply wasn't working. Time to really focus on rehabbing it. (I have been for the last week, everyday I go to the gym and do lightweight high rep shoulder exercises listed here and other places, which takes me about an hour a half. I've been able to do more and more reps so it is improving.


My question is, what exactly are the best chest exercises for someone with a jacked up shoulder?


Bench press and DB press = out of the question. When I get done doing them I'm in intense pain. (I get worse shoulder pain when I bench press then when I military press). Dips = out of the question, again terrible pain during/afterwards.

In fact, every chest exercise seems to be terrible for the shoulders. I need something that I can do in the 12 rep range because I'm keeping the weight light until I'm fully healed. Preferably more then 1 chest exercise to choose from. Perhaps top 3 most healthy for shoulders.

proti3n
06-10-2010, 09:57 AM
my shoulder pops out when lifted straight above the head or jsur behind it. do u have any rehab for this.

ha you need to have surgery to tighten your rotator cuff search up "bankart surgery"

RavensFan2k3
06-12-2010, 06:56 PM
those of you rehabbing your shoulders, what rep ranges are you using? I'm not sure if I should be using a 15-25 rep range or something like 12-20. They arent that different I know, so would it make a difference? Should I be using something lower?

guest89
06-13-2010, 01:29 AM
those of you rehabbing your shoulders, what rep ranges are you using? I'm not sure if I should be using a 15-25 rep range or something like 12-20. They arent that different I know, so would it make a difference? Should I be using something lower?

I start at 12-20 reps (depending on the exercise, I do about 10 different ones) then every single day I add a rep.


Feels good when you hit 30 reps on something that you originally struggled to make 15 reps with. (My goal is 30 reps, then I up the weight a notch, do less reps, work way back to 30.



Still haven't done anything for chest in 4 weeks.. Not sure what chest exercises aren't harmful to the shoulders and don't wanna experiment. Any help guys?

RavensFan2k3
06-13-2010, 08:35 AM
I start at 12-20 reps (depending on the exercise, I do about 10 different ones) then every single day I add a rep.


Feels good when you hit 30 reps on something that you originally struggled to make 15 reps with. (My goal is 30 reps, then I up the weight a notch, do less reps, work way back to 30.



Still haven't done anything for chest in 4 weeks.. Not sure what chest exercises aren't harmful to the shoulders and don't wanna experiment. Any help guys?
So you work up to 30? You said depending on the exercise. What rep range do you use for lateral raises if you do them?

guest89
06-13-2010, 11:19 AM
So you work up to 30? You said depending on the exercise. What rep range do you use for lateral raises if you do them?
I started at 10lb dbs for 12 reps and worked up to 16 reps. I don't do them every single day cause I alternate Lateral raise, front raise, and military press.

My "heavy" sets are, I rotate these out on different days, I do one of these each day, although it depends mostly on whats available/what I feel like doing.

Military press: 65lbs (using a BB) for 18 reps (3 sets).
Lat. Raise: 10lb DBx 16 reps.
Front raise: 10lb DBx 16 reps. (Could possibly do more, keeping even with LR though).
(Only been at this 2 weeks and didn't do raises as much at first)




Also I've been doing these (someone else posted this video in this thread) every single day for 3 sets at the end of my workout (using 10lb DBs rather then a BB). Right now I'm at 15 reps.
_VOInmUeAew




For all the exercises using weights I start out at 12 reps because form is really important. I don't go lower cause don't want too much weight as strain. I also do 2 types of exercises using the cables at the beginning of every workout, I do these every day.



This one is at 28 reps

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/images/magazine/40/th_9.jpg
http://www.mindandmuscle.net/images/magazine/40/th_10.jpg
(Taken from mindandmuscle site, link at bottom of post)

And I'm at 31 reps of these
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Subscapularis/CBInternalRotation.html
(posted in OPs post in this thread).





I do 3 sets of every exercise I've posted. Reps increase each day by 1 for each lift/exercise. I stay vigilant looking for shoulder exercises though and sometimes I might throw in 2 sets of some of random shoulder exercise (the ones I feel aren't as effective as these but I still do them every now and then).






This is an excellent article on the subject of shoulder recovery btw, written by Marc McDougal.
http://www.mindandmuscle.net/articles/marc_mcdougal/posture_shoulder?page=0%2C0






My shoulders are fairly strong (even though injured), but my endurance is terrible in my left shoulder which is why I'm spending an hour every single day working shoulders. Endurance is definitely increasing A LOT by doing this. This next week I'll probably slow my shoulders to 30 mins a day so I can start working the rest of my body (lightly). Coming off of a knee injury as well so its time I start rehabbing it as well.

RavensFan2k3
06-13-2010, 01:46 PM
I started at 10lb dbs for 12 reps and worked up to 16 reps. I don't do them every single day cause I alternate Lateral raise, front raise, and military press.

My "heavy" sets are, I rotate these out on different days, I do one of these each day, although it depends mostly on whats available/what I feel like doing.

Military press: 65lbs (using a BB) for 18 reps (3 sets).
Lat. Raise: 10lb DBx 16 reps.
Front raise: 10lb DBx 16 reps. (Could possibly do more, keeping even with LR though).
(Only been at this 2 weeks and didn't do raises as much at first)Me and you seem to be doing similar things. Are you going to take these all the way to 30 reps? Is it necessary to go that high? I originally was going to do these up to 25 reps, but I'm thinking of only going up to 20 before I increase the weight.





Also I've been doing these (someone else posted this video in this thread) every single day for 3 sets at the end of my workout (using 10lb DBs rather then a BB). Right now I'm at 15 reps.
_VOInmUeAewI do these aswell with a dumbbell. I was going to up up to 25 reps with these.





For all the exercises using weights I start out at 12 reps because form is really important. I don't go lower cause don't want too much weight as strain. I also do 2 types of exercises using the cables at the beginning of every workout, I do these every day.



This one is at 28 reps

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/images/magazine/40/th_9.jpg
http://www.mindandmuscle.net/images/magazine/40/th_10.jpg
(Taken from mindandmuscle site, link at bottom of post)

And I'm at 31 reps of these
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Subscapularis/CBInternalRotation.html
(posted in OPs post in this thread).





I do 3 sets of every exercise I've posted. Reps increase each day by 1 for each lift/exercise. I stay vigilant looking for shoulder exercises though and sometimes I might throw in 2 sets of some of random shoulder exercise (the ones I feel aren't as effective as these but I still do them every now and then). I do all of these internal and external rotations aswell, although not everyday.







This is an excellent article on the subject of shoulder recovery btw, written by Marc McDougal.
http://www.mindandmuscle.net/articles/marc_mcdougal/posture_shoulder?page=0%2C0






My shoulders are fairly strong (even though injured), but my endurance is terrible in my left shoulder which is why I'm spending an hour every single day working shoulders. Endurance is definitely increasing A LOT by doing this. This next week I'll probably slow my shoulders to 30 mins a day so I can start working the rest of my body (lightly). Coming off of a knee injury as well so its time I start rehabbing it as well.

Thanks for the link. You're endurance is increasing alot, but how is that useful when doing exercises in the 6-15 rep range? How long have you been devoting your workouts to your shoulders?

guest89
06-14-2010, 01:52 PM
Me and you seem to be doing similar things. Are you going to take these all the way to 30 reps? Is it necessary to go that high? I originally was going to do these up to 25 reps, but I'm thinking of only going up to 20 before I increase the weight.
25 reps for lifts involving weights, then I'll go to a higher db is my goal.






Thanks for the link. You're endurance is increasing alot, but how is that useful when doing exercises in the 6-15 rep range? How long have you been devoting your workouts to your shoulders?
Since I'm coming off of a knee injury as well I haven't been doing other lifts since I started rehabbing my shoulders. This evening I intend on starting a normal split, but am gonna use 12 reps for a few weeks.



I've been devoting an hour a day to shoulders but since I'm starting to hit the rest of my body today gonna drop it down to 30 mins a day on shoulders




In bold ^.

FrancisMHWhite
06-30-2010, 07:16 PM
anyone here have shoulder separation injuries before? if so how long did you wait before lifting again and how did your shoulder look?

i had a 3rd degree separation back in march but since my parents' healthcare is crap, they'd prefer to avoid me getting an MRI, so i've just been doing some rubber band exercises with my shoulder the past month or so and it seems to have tightened up quite a bit(not 100% though), though there still is a rather large bump on my shoulder. you guys think i'm good to get back into lightweight lifting or should i continue to hold off?

peshay
07-20-2010, 10:26 PM
Edit: I would recommend not doing the "empty can" exercise anymore for anyone doing these. That is kind of "old school" therapy. When performing that exercise, you are most certainly impinging the supraspinatus tendon when you go above about 45 degrees. In fact, this position (with the thumb down) is actually used in some tests to help diagnose shoulder pathology. The better way to do it is "full can" with your thumb up. In fact, any kind of exercise involving raising your arm up should be with the thumb up to externally rotate the humerus.

Totally agree that empty can excercise involving internal rotation is terrible for those suffering from internal rotation as is the lateral raise with the pinky finger at the highest point.

donchesak
09-05-2010, 06:56 AM
Great article! Thx for posting!

Khainpride
09-05-2010, 11:00 PM
Hello guys i am no troll so believe my story please

in the end of 2008 in martial arts training i landed on my shoulder while doing a flip @ 200 lbs.

I didnt feel nothing and everything was fine but when i went to sleep, i woke up around middle of the night screaming the most pain i had in my life. ( i couldnt even move my shoulder..it was like it was stuck in one position..if i tried to move it it would hurt really badly)

I been to the doctors couple of time..gave me anti inflammatory pills..10 physical therapy sessions.

It didnt get better.. so i started to lift weights in december of 2008. It got better and i was happier.. also getting in shape lol ^.^

around beginning of 2009 till the summer i probably ( idk how to explain but it feels like it) teared my shoulders( yes both) about 10 times lol. I quit lifting from the summer till this summer ( I lifted on and off actually).

I been to the doctors, they act like its all in my head. Maybe because i was too smart in this shoulder injury. I told them what i possibly have and they should check it out. ( this was 2010 march) They gave no prescription for pills and just told me to go buy anti inflammatory pills from a pharmacy. They told me to go lift weights..do it lightly and stretch my shoulder.

I did what they said and nothing works.

cool im ok with the pain i can handle it for my whole life but for love of god why does it hurt soooooooooooooooo BAD when in my college lecture............

It feels like it inflames extremely... i also notice it when i got to a movie theater with friends. I know how this happens. It happens by me not moving my shoulder for a long period of time ( 20 minutes plus+).

It hurts so bad that i cannot focus in my class and because of that i **** up on my test because i cannot focus.

I can go to a doctor but he would do nothing but say "take sum pills kid so u can become a junkie". ( not really lol)

for almost 2 years the docs didnt even take a xray or mri of my shoulder.

Oh and i like to say that whichever direction i move my right shoulder it cracks and its not a good feeling... it gets uncomfortable. My left shoulder doesnt crack much though.( i guess something like my tendon rubbing against bone??)

ATM im typing this i am having pain. ( not the amount i get in lecture..there i have the worst ones)

Can you guys recommend me anything?

tmr i will start cooking my meals and begin a diet. I will follow this routine like i did before but with more motivation. I am 210 pounds all fat.

I also cannot do barbell bench press, even the bar hurts. Dumbells are OK but they still hurt if i go full ROM.

oliedwards
09-29-2010, 08:40 AM
amazing post . read every word twice
Hail the OP

jturk123
10-31-2010, 09:22 PM
Section 4: A Sample Routine

The following is a sample routine for the aforementioned exercises. Ideally you would do them before every upper body workout. But then again, this routine can also be time-consuming, so if you want, you could limit the routine to just internal rotation and then external rotation or Cuban rotation.

Exercise 1: Internal Rotation on a cable pulley machine (do both arms together at the same time) or with dumbbells (but again, cables are best)

2-3 sets, 30-50 reps, 10-15 pounds (20-25 reps and 5-10 pounds for dumbbells)

Exercise 2: External Rotation on a cable pulley machine or with dumbbells

2-3 sets, 30-50 reps, 10-15 pounds (20-25 reps and 5-10 pounds for dumbbells)

Exercise 3: Cuban Rotation

2-3 sets, 10-12 reps, start off somewhere between a 15 pound to 40 pound bar and go from there

Exercise 4: Scapular Retraction

2-3 sets, 10-15 reps, try dumbbells anywhere between 5-20 pounds and go up from there. Remember to really squeeze those shoulder blades



Section 5: Exercises to be wary of

This section of the article will probably be very controversial. I will give a list of exercises that I think should not be done at all (for someone with healthy or bad shoulders) and some that should be avoided if you have shoulder problems (granted, the best thing is to not be lifting at all if you have a bad shoulder, but if it is only minor and nagging, it is still very common to see guys just working through it). Ultimately, you have to be the judge. But rememberójust because the exercise doesnít cause pain, does not mean it canít cause problems in the long run. Here are some of my suggestions:

1) Upright Rows: I think that these should be avoided entirely. Again, I will emphasize that this isnít true for everyone, but they have a high probability of causing impingement

2) Pec Deck: If your shoulders are fine, go for it. But if you have any shoulder issues, steer clear.

3) Flyes: Same as above. If your shoulders are fine, go for it. If not, be wary

4) Dips: Same as above. If you have bad shoulders avoid them. Otherwise, go ahead. Just be sure to not go past parallel with your upper arms.

5) Shoulder and Chest Presses (including Bench Press): These will most certainly aggravate your bad shoulder. Try to avoid these if you have shoulder problems.

6) Overhead Tricep Extension (with barbell or dumbbell): These put a lot of stress on your shoulders, so if you have any issues, avoid them.

Realistically, I could go on forever, as almost every upper body exercise involves the shoulders, but I think these are some of the top ones to avoid. You could argue that Any type of lateral or front raise should be in there too, but since you do usually go lighter with them anyway, Iíll leave that for you to decide whether to do them or not if you have a bad shoulder. Only you can judge what your body can handle, not me.


Section 6: How to do certain exercises better

Through my training, I found ways to change an exercise a little bit so that if you have shoulder problems, and even if you donít, you can perform them without putting too much stress on the shoulders. Again, you have to be your own judge. I could do most of these exercises without pain when my RC was bad, but that does not mean that this will be true for everybody. My point is, tread cautiously. Use these suggestions as a guide and hopefully they will help you.

1) Flat, Incline or Decline Dumbbell or Barbell Press: When lowering the barbell or dumbbell, donít go all the way to your chest. The point of doing these exercises is mainly to work your chest, and if you go too low, your shoulders will start doing all the work. Try it out for yourself to see whatís comfortable for you, but I would stop 3-4 inches above your chest. This will keep the stress on your chest (good) and off your shoulders (also good).
2) Pullups or Chinups: On the negative part of these exercises, donít quite go down all the way so that your arms are completely straight. This will put a lot of stress on your shoulders.
3) Pushups: Changing your hand positioning will reduce the stress on your shoulders. When my RC was bad, regular pushups caused me pain. But changing the hand position made them pain-free. For example, letís say your right shoulder is your bad one. When you get into pushup position, move your right hand back a couple inches, but keep your left hand where it was. Although some will decry that this will work your muscles different from the classic pushup, if you have a bad shoulder pushups might be painful, but putting the arm with the bad shoulders a couple inches back will greatly reduce the stress on your shoulders.
4) Skullcrushers or Lying tricep extensions: Instead of doing them on a flat bench, which is the most common way, try doing them on a slight incline. This will greatly reduce the stress on your shoulders. Even now that my shoulders are OK, I still do extensions on a slight incline (the lowest the bench will go without being flat, I think thatís at 15 degrees).


Thatís about all I can think of on how to perform certain exercises better to reduce stress on your shoulders. If I come up with anymore ideas Iíll add them, or if anyone else has suggestions I will gladly add them and credit you as the source.

Section 7: Further Reading

Here are some articles on shoulder rehabilitation if youíre interested in further reading:


http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1608/is_3_18/ai_83343027

http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=body_145shldr

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bbinfo.php?page=ShoulderInjuries


Section 8: Final Thoughts

If youíre reading this, well then thank you for making it this far! This took me a long time to write up, and I hope you have gained some new knowledge, whether youíre a novice or veteran of lifting, whether you have healthy shoulders or you donít. I would just like to stress again that these exercises arenít about how much weight you can do. Form and control are paramount. If you have any suggestions or comments or questions, please say something! If thereís something in here you disagree with, tell me why. As long as you give me a good reason, Iíll listen. But if you just say ďyour article sucks,Ē itíll fall on deaf ears. I want to know why it ďsucksĒ and what I can change. I wrote this as a service to everyone out there, healthy shoulders or not, and show you what has worked for me. If you even gain one tip or one exercise or whatever from this, then Iíll be happy. If not, thatís fine too. Good luck!

just wanted to say that using techniques in your article, my shoulder is substantially improved which im very happy about. nice work. peace, john.

Macrae88
11-08-2010, 09:38 AM
do you know anything about exercising after RC surgery? im gettin mine repaired next month and need a way to stay strong.

MillenniumTiger
11-24-2010, 05:19 PM
So in September of '09 I had my labrum/bicep tendon repaired after tearing both from football. Everything was going good up til about 6-8 weeks ago when I hurt it again in practice. Been playin with a brace on it since and got my arthrogram/MRI on Monday. Results came Tuesday and turns out I re-tore the labrum and this time tore the rotator cuff as well (infraspinitus/supraspinitus). Will be getting them repaired whenever our season ends as the National Championship game is not til December 18th and hopefully we are playing then.

Anyways, just wanted to know if anyone knew what sort of rehab differences I will be looking at. I know for sure I'll be out of Spring Ball and won't be allowed to start pushing myself in the weight room for 3/4 months post surgery like last time. On top of it all, my offensive line coach said no more flat bench pressing for the rest of my college career :(

josephinedalton
01-05-2011, 12:58 AM
i followed this thread for a while after my last shoulder surgery in 08. I am now lying in bed in a wedge and sling referring back to it to refresh my memory on the original writeup.

I also started a new thread about my journey back to the stage. Not sure when that will be. Feel free to come follow along.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=130575993


Trainer Jo Fitness
cPT Josephine Dalton
www.trainerjo.com
www.trainerjo1.blogspot.com/
www.facebook.com/josephine702
www.twitter.com/trainerjofit
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=242690756518

Madevilz
01-09-2011, 10:19 AM
aint it a great feeling when you wake up and dont feel the pain in the shoulder anymore?

feels like I want to cry (no emo)

davidkap
01-09-2011, 10:20 AM
in w/ strained supraspinatus

in4longread

also subbed

thekaratekid
01-09-2011, 11:11 AM
I'm looking into getting on some good protein and an NO2 product with creatine... I want to be in the gym as much as possible to take advantage of these supplements but I don't want to overdue and then get injured or burn out. With these supplements in me, could I handle a 5 day a week program. Four of the five days are pretty intense. I know everyone's body is different but I seem to have a pretty body for recovery and with these supps I'm hoping I can hit it hard for a few months straight before I let up a little. I gotta get that beach body ready! Every once in a while my shoulder gets pretty sore. I'm assuming it's some old football injury that will always bother me here and there. It doesn't keep me out of the gym so I'm hoping I am told it's fine for me to go that long and that hard with these supps, even with my "bumb shoulder."

perryvillelax93
01-15-2011, 12:15 PM
Thank you for this article. I never had a specific injury, but my shoulders are always cracking/clicking and feel vulnerable. I wrestled and I play lacrosse so shoulder safety is a must. I'll be doing these as a preventative measure.

Are there any articles similar to this for strengthening/rehabbing knees and hips?

Yodums
01-21-2011, 07:30 AM
Thank you for this article. I never had a specific injury, but my shoulders are always cracking/clicking and feel vulnerable. I wrestled and I play lacrosse so shoulder safety is a must. I'll be doing these as a preventative measure.

Are there any articles similar to this for strengthening/rehabbing knees and hips?

There's some good information in this thread. I'm suffering from a shoulder-related injury that I haven't gotten looked at. Strangely enough, the injury is mainly affecting my ability to bench. I usually bench 75 lbs dumbbells and I could barely even do 40 lbs yesterday. What's even stranger is that I can do most compound shoulder exercises fine - shoulder dumbbell press, seated barbell overhead press (military), seated overhead press (smith) and barbell raises. The exercises I can't do are: front lateral raises, side lateral raises (cables only), bench and flies.

I've had this once a month ago and the issue disappeared after about a week, but this time it's been around for almost 4 days now.

beachguy498
01-21-2011, 09:31 AM
There's some good information in this thread. I'm suffering from a shoulder-related injury that I haven't gotten looked at. Strangely enough, the injury is mainly affecting my ability to bench. I usually bench 75 lbs dumbbells and I could barely even do 40 lbs yesterday. What's even stranger is that I can do most compound shoulder exercises fine - shoulder dumbbell press, seated barbell overhead press (military), seated overhead press (smith) and barbell raises. The exercises I can't do are: front lateral raises, side lateral raises (cables only), bench and flies.

I've had this once a month ago and the issue disappeared after about a week, but this time it's been around for almost 4 days now.

I gave up the DB bench over a year ago, just too painful with my shoulder. I'm off anything overhead right now and still in PT for my set of injuries. I have a slight RC tear, an impingement, issues with my AC joint, a total labrum tear.. and a few other gems in there.

You should really get it looked at, in my case the MRI showed that I'd do more damage to my front RC if I kept going the way I was. I have a bone spur that was shredding it.
BG

Madevilz
01-24-2011, 11:41 AM
I have a slight RC tear, an impingement, issues with my AC joint, a total labrum tear.. and a few other gems in there.


damn man, I feel bad for you. Hope it will get fixed soon.


Question for anyone...
What is recommended for a shoulder injury, Osteopath or Physio?

johnsonho
01-28-2011, 02:32 PM
Before my right right shoulder was very painful and clicking, especially felt very painful after doing bench press in gym.

This last for 2-3 years. To ease the pain, I do lots of stretching every day, it helped a bit. But recently, the pain seems not went away even after 3 day stretch. So I decided to go to hospital and have treatment.

In the hospital, I have MRI scanning, and found out minor tears in my right AC joint. The doctor then made a injection in my shoulder, i think is steroids. And, in a minute, 80% of the pain gone. Magic. But it cost so expensive. :<

The doc said i can do sports from now on, but most probably, pain will come back if i do very heavy bench press again.

I asked the doctor if any stretching or rehab exercises need to do before go to gym again, surprisingly, he said there is no need.

BUT, I decide to give my shoulder a 4 week rest, and do some stretching or rehab exercises before go back to gym again.

Now still having little pain, and the doctor said it is normal. I think the pain will not completely go away.

Should I do both stretching (e.g. Broomstick Stretch, Towel stretch, etc.) and rehab exercises (etc. Anterior/Lateral Rotation ) from now on
or
start stretching for 1 week first, then in week 2-4, do both stretching and rehab exercises?

Thanks!

Joeykablowy
02-17-2011, 05:10 AM
You said ideally you would do the RC exercises before each upper body workout. Would it be Ok if I performed these exercises AFTER any upper body workout (Upper Back, Chest, Shoulders)? And by after-wards I mean an hour or so later.

Similarly, could I do these hours before a workout or would that somehow fatigue the joint and possibly cause instability later on during the workout?

My main point is: Are these exercises like doing a full blown tricep workout right before a chest workout? Do you need to let the muscles rest between working a complementary muscle group.

slimguy18
02-17-2011, 07:10 PM
MY shoulder makes a cracking noise when i try to stretch it is this normal?

garn
02-23-2011, 08:12 AM
I just wanted to give my input here after years of research and trial/error and what has worked for me, to help others.

I injured my right should, not during workouts/lifting, but playing dodgeball... thats right. I threw my arm out; I'm sure you know the feeling. Instead of stopping, I decided I was having too much fun and continued to throw as hard as I could. No surprise I woke up the next morning to have a screwed up RC for the next several years.

It got slightly better with time, but over the last few months when I started lifting in the gym more seriously/consistantly, I had to fix this issue to continue to bench press.

I'm taking a joing supplement (animal flex, but any full profile supplement should help) which I know has made a large difference in my recovery. Twice a week I perform the same routine below, which is a conglomerate of exercises I have picked up:

-3 sets of 20 reps per arm- internal rotations in a standing position using a medium strength band wrapped around a power rack. I started out with a low strength band at first b/c it was still painful.
-3 sets of 20 reps per arm- external rotations in a standing position using a medium strength band wrapped around a power rack. Same as above on the strength of the band. This one seemed to target my injury moreso than internal rotations.
-2 sets of 24 reps - bent over arm circles/figure 8's. I used an 8lb weight at first, moved up to a 12 lb now. I do figure 12 figure 8's in one direction and then reverse and do 12 in the other direction. Do this with both arms twice.
-3 sets of 12 per arm - "Sword draw" where you move your arm from the opposing hip up to pointing to the sky. Like drawing a sword or doing the trendy disco dance, only keeping your arm mostly straight, but not locked. I started with 8 lbs, moved up to 12.
-2 sets of 20 per arm - the exercise with no name. Almost like arm raises, but with your hands rotated almost 180 degrees from their natural position (so that if you were holding a cup of water, you would be holding it upside down), bring your arms up straight from the front of your legs up 90 degrees. From a birds eye view, your arms should be about halfway between straight out to the sides and straight out in front. 5 lbs.
-3 sets of 30 reps - Low weight but high rep overhead dumbell press. This really helped my shoulder out. Do 15 lbs, 20 lbs, then 30 lbs. for example.
-stretch - using a long straight bar stretch your should joint forwards and backwards by creating a 90 degree angle with your arm, bicep section of your arm parallel to the ground. Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGWMSbdaUL0

Do what this guy does, as well as the opposite way with your hand facing the group and pulling the bar forward instead of backward.

My shoulder is worlds better now at only a month and a half in..

Now, I have injured my neck :(

tylan
02-23-2011, 10:03 AM
Garn,
Just wondering, but are you still lifting during your home grown rehab routine?

garn
02-23-2011, 02:11 PM
Garn,
Just wondering, but are you still lifting during your home grown rehab routine?

Hey tylan,

A bit more background; as I had mentioned my shoulder had been messed up for a while, and then I made it worse (I think from too much weight on military press) and things really got bad for it. Instead of discomfort, it was sharp pain and I just couldn't do certain exercises with it any longer. For the first couple of weeks I didn't do any bench or military press, or anything that seemed to agitate my right shoulder, just my "shoulder recovery routien." After that I started doing light weight on bench and military press.

The lightweight/high rep military press I had adopted as part of my routine to help my shoulder because I noticed the days after I did this, my shoulder felt "solid" and "tight" in a good way (wouldn't pop or seem to move out of socket like it did before with certain movements).

With bench I would do like 40 reps of just the bar to warm things up, then didn't go more than a plate on each side for those couple of weeks, just whatever felt comfortable. For any exercise that would agitate my shoulder, I would do pretty much the full shoulder routine I mentioned before even doing them, and then do them very light.

Over the course of a month or so I was starting to go a little heavier, but was real careful with my shoulder; about a month and a half now, I'm going heavier than I had before and my shoulder really does feel great now, even better than before I most recently tweaked it, so I am going to keep doing what I'm doing!

When I say "heavy" I mean 185x8 and 205x4 on bench for example; I'm an "experienced beginner." I've been lifting on and off for several years but never stayed commited until recently going to a gym and getting some people to routinely workout with to try and pack on some muscle. Before it was all done in my basement, which is hard to stay consistent and motivated with so many possible distractions and no one to spot you and encourage you!

garn
02-23-2011, 02:39 PM
You said ideally you would do the RC exercises before each upper body workout. Would it be Ok if I performed these exercises AFTER any upper body workout (Upper Back, Chest, Shoulders)? And by after-wards I mean an hour or so later.

Similarly, could I do these hours before a workout or would that somehow fatigue the joint and possibly cause instability later on during the workout?

My main point is: Are these exercises like doing a full blown tricep workout right before a chest workout? Do you need to let the muscles rest between working a complementary muscle group.

Do them before you do weight lifting that is uncomfortable or affects your particular shoulder injuries. These exercises are all with very light weight. Plus, it gets fluids in the shoulder area, making things nice and supported before you begin really using the shoulder area to lift heavier weight that targets larger muscle groups. The RC muscles are supporting muscles, but without taking care of them, your primary lifts will either go nowhere, or cause injury.

tylan
02-23-2011, 05:06 PM
Thanks for all your info garn,

I asked cause I have injured my rotator cuff by forcing out the last 3 reps on my overhead dumbbell press. Seemed like just a strain... pretty dull and mild pain. I took about a week off, feeling good, and I lifted a big bag of groceries awkwardly out of the car... and boom... I feel like I just lost all the healing that took place in the past 10-12 days.

The questions that I've come up with after reading this (and other RC articles) are..

What to do while "self rehabbing"? (You answered nicely)

and a new one:

Should I even attempt these RC exercises if I still have some pain/dull aches? Or wait until pain free?

garn
02-23-2011, 06:39 PM
Thanks for all your info garn,

I asked cause I have injured my rotator cuff by forcing out the last 3 reps on my overhead dumbbell press. Seemed like just a strain... pretty dull and mild pain. I took about a week off, feeling good, and I lifted a big bag of groceries awkwardly out of the car... and boom... I feel like I just lost all the healing that took place in the past 10-12 days.

The questions that I've come up with after reading this (and other RC articles) are..

What to do while "self rehabbing"? (You answered nicely)

and a new one:

Should I even attempt these RC exercises if I still have some pain/dull aches? Or wait until pain free?

I would attempt all of these exercises starting with the lowest weight possible at first. If there is a slight discomfort when doing them, that is probably fine (mine were). This is my unproffessional opinion. If it is enough pain to make you grimace while doing these exercises, then I would probably do just stretching and wait a week or two before trying again. Instead, use alternating ice and heat on the area, then maybe massage it some too.

The gym I go to has several bands of different strength; I believe yellow is the lowest. If it isn't stretched taught, it has VERY little resistance, so I'm confident you can do all of these exercises at least with a band at first.

tylan
02-23-2011, 07:04 PM
I was referring to the time immediately after an injury (first week or two) When you are still sore from the injury - The general dull ache you have throughout the day. That type of pain. Do rehab? Or wait til you have no pain and then start rehab?

I went back and read pages 2-7 and it seems like many people start the shoulder rehab whil still putting up with the daily pain. Maybe for some the pain won't go away until the RC gets some exercise?

garn
02-27-2011, 06:39 AM
I was referring to the time immediately after an injury (first week or two) When you are still sore from the injury - The general dull ache you have throughout the day. That type of pain. Do rehab? Or wait til you have no pain and then start rehab?

I went back and read pages 2-7 and it seems like many people start the shoulder rehab whil still putting up with the daily pain. Maybe for some the pain won't go away until the RC gets some exercise?

I began working with those exercises almost immediately, but what I was saying was don't do them if it hurts (not just discomfort, but enough pain to make you grimace) while doing the exercises.

tylan
02-27-2011, 02:23 PM
I began working with those exercises almost immediately, but what I was saying was don't do them if it hurts (not just discomfort, but enough pain to make you grimace) while doing the exercises.

That's what I was looking for. I have no pain when doing them, just a dull ache from time to time.

Bushh
03-16-2011, 02:19 PM
I started doing rotary cuff exercises and now I don't get any type of clicking or pain any where in my shoulders.

BiggzMoNeY
03-17-2011, 05:22 AM
Last Friday I had what I thought was a good shoulder/back workout. The next morning my right shoulder was a mess.

Particularly frontal and lateral movement up to about 90 degrees past that and no pain. in that ROM it had been more than difficult to even poor milk in my cereal every morning.... Military press = no pain though

I haven't trained upper body since then(1 week) and have been doing the mentioned rehab exercises and they seem to provide relief only when I do them and for about a minute after.

Any thoughts on where I should go from here? I was thinking ortho or chiropractor

bankhead
03-17-2011, 07:29 AM
Last Friday I had what I thought was a good shoulder/back workout. The next morning my right shoulder was a mess.

Particularly frontal and lateral movement up to about 90 degrees past that and no pain. in that ROM it had been more than difficult to even poor milk in my cereal every morning.... Military press = no pain though

I haven't trained upper body since then(1 week) and have been doing the mentioned rehab exercises and they seem to provide relief only when I do them and for about a minute after.

Any thoughts on where I should go from here? I was thinking ortho or chiropractor

ortho.

BiggzMoNeY
03-25-2011, 03:38 AM
ortho.

ortho said I have impingment in my right shoulder from overuse and some tendonitis and bursitis.

He told me to make sure i work it every day to avoid getting a frozen shoulder.

Sleeping at night is near impossible and the pain is pretty excrutiating. Was wondering if you guys have any advice on how to geet a better nights sleep?

Only thing I have really done besides ice and heat before bed, is actually sleeping with a heating pad inbetween my armpit. It seemed to help a little bit. I have been getting less than 5 hours of sleep everynight for the past week.

Dudeguyy
03-28-2011, 02:10 PM
ortho said I have impingment in my right shoulder from overuse and some tendonitis and bursitis.

He told me to make sure i work it every day to avoid getting a frozen shoulder.

Sleeping at night is near impossible and the pain is pretty excrutiating. Was wondering if you guys have any advice on how to geet a better nights sleep?

Only thing I have really done besides ice and heat before bed, is actually sleeping with a heating pad inbetween my armpit. It seemed to help a little bit. I have been getting less than 5 hours of sleep everynight for the past week.
Yikes bro, sounds very rough. It sounds like I have a very, very minor case of what you've got there, although I've not been diagnosed. My left shoulder hurts if I twinge it the wrong way, usually bending it behind back or straightening arm and reaching in a certain direction, which stresses RC from what I understand.

I too took the last week off (snuck in one Bis/Tris/Chest/Back superworkout at home... used light weights and that was my only workout last week). I've been icing and heating shoulder, and for the last three days taking 2 Aspirin every 4 hours. Pain seems to be subsiding, but it was pretty minimal to begin with. Nothing like what you have. Still can reach far overhead and reach in most any direction with only occasional pain. Still, shoulder feels weaker.

I've been reading up on RC PT exercises and trying a few out. Hopefully the NSAIDS and nature are clearing it up anyway. Did the doc give you any specific exercises or advice to get it to improve, beyond heat?

Tomi_Li
03-28-2011, 06:34 PM
Hey guys, I am very nervous. I was doing my normal workout for shoulders and back and people were using the free weights so instead of doing military press first I did rear delt raises and pullups. I then did military press and went to the reverse pec deck and for some reason when I tried to do 10 pounds my right shoulder felt very funky and it felt very hard to do the first rep, I ended up doing 12 reps but after that I did some wide grip pullups and my right shoulder hurts when I raise my arm over my head.

It feels very strange, I don't know what it could be but I am worried that I may have torn something? I am hoping it is nothing too bad and goes away in a couple of days.


I may not have stretched or warmed up properly, since I usually do military press first I warmup on that but everything seemed to be fine until that first rep of reverse pec deck.

I do external and internal rotations and I do the broomstick exercise already to help shoulder strength and flexibility.

Dudeguyy
04-13-2011, 02:25 PM
No problems there bro. The only problem is, reverse or forward, PEC DECK SUCKS!

Hope any irritation has gone away. I have not been so lucky. It appears I have some form of impingement going on. It's been going on for about a month now. Sucks hardocore... Anyway, I haven't lifted in over a week. I think it is slowly improving, but I could be totally wrong. Have an appointment with an Ortho next week for my knee, and if my shoulder issues haven't cleared up by then, I will have him check it out.

My question for anyone knowledgeable about impingement recovery is... is it normal to feel some minor pain or irritation while doing rehab exercises? I have been doing some RC exercises, mainly rotations, to try and increase bloodflow and strengthen the muscles this week. It is a circuit and the video can be found by googling "Diesel Crew Shoulder Rehab." Today I did Cuban press, External rotations, and Doggcrapp Broomstick stretch (or shoulder dislocaters). Anyway, have some minor irritation going on while doing exercises. Is this normal for PT exercises, or should I stop? I'd think some minor irritation from whatever is still inflamed would be normal.

Unojay
04-23-2011, 08:29 AM
Great read thank you very much, I have been struggling with shoulder problems for over a year now and have been told I need surgery, but don't wanna be out for 6 months while recovering. I will try these tips and see if it gets any better. Love you

BernieD
04-30-2011, 02:21 PM
So here I am, back from the dead...haven't been on this site in a few years, but glad to see that people are still finding this article useful. I feel like a minor celebrity hehe. One woman even PMed me saying that my article was so great and she goes "Don't tell my husband, but I love you" haha. Funny stuff. She even asked me my field of study, as if I'm in exercise science or something. I'm in grad school for psychology, nothing to do with physical therapy...this is all just information I picked up along the way.

I won't even attempt to answer a bunch of the questions posted, as some have already answered them, but keep on rehabbing those shoulders. And, when in doubt, see a specialist. Internet diagnosis/treatment planning is a hairy situation. Good luck ya'll.

BernieD
04-30-2011, 02:24 PM
Also, if it's easier for people, I have uploaded the text of the original post online. Here's a link to a Word Document:

http://www.mediafire.com/?zcj61m3bc13icl2

Tyciol
05-17-2011, 10:54 PM
Thanks, I love mediaFire. That was very helpful.

Blindead
05-17-2011, 11:05 PM
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/in_defense_of_overhead_lifting

interesting article.

Sami76
05-19-2011, 05:58 AM
Time to re-read Bernie's wealth of info here...injured my shoulder last night while doing tricep dips. I should have known better with my bad shoulders. This sucks. :(

RPPorter
05-19-2011, 01:03 PM
I'm wondering if I have a shoulder injury. Most presses don't really hurt my left shoulder, but most lateral raises and any other raises cause my left shoulder to start burning as if it had been lifting for 20 reps....

joshrbowman
05-19-2011, 01:37 PM
have you ever heard of having pain on the top of your shoulder, like in the bone area? I'm guessing its the Acromion, or the AC joint in my right shoulder. Also I've had a little bit of pain in the front of my shoulder as well, like maybe the upper part of my front portion of my shoulder.

I mostly have it in my right shoulder, but i can have it some in my left too.

Not sure what movements aggravate it, i haven't lifted in almost 4 months do to it.

Been through therapy which didn't help much. Just made the pain hurt a little less and and a little less frequent.

Tyciol
05-21-2011, 07:27 PM
Sometimes get it there though it's usually lower, I think where the head of humerus presses up against the underside of acromion.

joshrbowman
05-22-2011, 03:15 PM
Sometimes get it there though it's usually lower, I think where the head of humerus presses up against the underside of acromion.

mine happens when i'm just sitting around usually and not doing anything. I thought maybe i had arthritis or something. usually if mine does not hurt in my shoulders, then i hurt in my elbows like right in the back of the elbow i guess at the olecranon. Pretty sure thats where i'm talking about. Like i said, i haven't lifted in months because the pain doesn't go away and ortho docs didn't know what it was. So I'm pretty much just trying to deal with it as best i can. Its not an unbearable pain, just enough to aggravate you lol.

What should i do for it? It just doesn't go away. It might for several days, but then it always comes back if i do something that involves moving my arms a lot.

Moulson
06-14-2011, 02:05 PM
1) Flat, Incline or Decline Dumbbell or Barbell Press: When lowering the barbell or dumbbell, donít go all the way to your chest. The point of doing these exercises is mainly to work your chest, and if you go too low, your shoulders will start doing all the work. Try it out for yourself to see whatís comfortable for you, but I would stop 3-4 inches above your chest. This will keep the stress on your chest (good) and off your shoulders (also good).

I have impingement syndrome in my right shoulder which I think came from bad form on Shoulder Press so I am interested in this comment. Touching the chest is obviously a no-no.

Thanks!

sinkheadhxc
06-21-2011, 07:10 AM
def having rc issues. pain in very center/round of my shoulder. feels loose and weak, bad pinch that goes whole way down the arm. did light benching last night and stopped after 2 sets, even a few tri workouts were bothersome.

my only question is, should i totally stop training other than maybe legs and the shoulder exercises mentioned within this article?

almost all chest movements bother me, so thats out, tris and bis have certain movements that actual feel good, and shoulders are out other than rehab movements. but tonight i'm doing back (would be back and shoulders), am i probably going to have a problem with rows and pull downs as well?

even if i'm not feeling pain its still a worry that i may be causing more problems. might just have to up my cardio to get by without being able to do the fun stuff lol

tylan
06-26-2011, 12:20 PM
I posted some questions a few months back on these RC exercises, and I just wanted to throw out some info that came from my chiro.

I hurt my shoulder in Feb 2011, but the injury seemed minor to me. I finally went to the ortho in June 2011 after getting sick of NOT lifting. It just seemed like it should have been healed more. He said it seemed like supraspinatus tendinitis, and told me to come back if it didn't continue to improve. He said I was on course, and tendon injuries heal slow. I then made some posts in the supplement forums here, and was directed to look into Active Release Technique, which I have done. I've had only two of the treatments and I think I can already feel an improvement...

But there are some things he told me about RC exercises that may benefit others...

Do them light and PAINFULLY slow. He suggested 2 sets of 12-15 reps with a 2lb dumbbell. I guess the reasoning is that we are not trying to build muscle, we are trying to rehab and get blood flowing. I found that early on I was doing WAY too many reps & sets, and my shoulder hurt the next day. I ended up only doing them once or twice a week. I can now do them daily without feeling regression.

The other thing he said was in relation to the Lateral Raise w/ Inward Rotation. (Also known as the exercise that looks like dumping a can of soda)... He said "thumbs up". The inward rotation actually puts more pressure on the supraspinatus. He referred to thumbs down as a older method for this RC exercise. He basically said that it closes up some of bones in the shoulder which causes irritation to the supraspinatus.

I hope this info is helpful to others with an RC injury.
Rest! Rest! Rest! and ease back into things, even the RC exercises!

tiffdelano
06-27-2011, 06:48 AM
This was a great read!

BigDave666
07-07-2011, 10:02 AM
the most important part of recovering an injury is to not train the opposite part of the body

maltanarchy
07-08-2011, 10:03 AM
the most important part of recovering an injury is to not train the opposite part of the body

I don't follow... Is there any further explanation to this point?

skarotum
07-11-2011, 07:29 AM
Does anyone have a new link to the 'broomstick stretch', the first exercise in section 3? The links are dead.

I googled but there are a bunch of different variations and most look like static stretches while the article calls for repetitions.

Also, when doing some of these exercises I experience pain from my pulled RC, do I keep doing them to strengthen and rehab it and the pain should subside?

Thanks.

Austere
08-01-2011, 02:44 PM
Some information and stuff I learned:

I had a left shoulder labral tear a while back. It healed, but I'll be stuck with the consequences for a very long time. I can't do flyes or incline bench, and I have to cut back on the volume of delt work I do.

The reason I got it was from being a gym noob: not working out the upper back enough, and failing to contract the trapezius on the bench.


I think that as long as you work out intelligently, hit your traps, lats, teres major, and levator scapulae, and bench properly, you should be pretty safe from shoulder injuries.