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Eric [Tsu]
10-27-2007, 09:03 PM
I didn't read a huge portion of the thread, but all the posts I read, everyone seemed to completely disagree with the OP. I decided I would post this thread, that will address one of the points of her posting the study:

Animal products increase the incidence of osteroporosis (contrary to popular advertisements "Drink milk for strong bones!"). I will also discuss other points such as kidney stones, which directly relates to osteoperosis.

95% of the responses in this thread will be arguements against what i've presented, but that's to be expected. So please, keep an open mind. Let's not let this become a flame war. I'd like to hear what everyone has to say on the subject.

If you reply to this thread I expect that you have read this post in it's entirety

First, a oversimplified overview of osteoporosis: It's a degenerative disease which is characterized as gradual loss of bone mineral density. This causes people to fracture or break their bones unbelievably easily, lose height, and have stooped posture due to breakdown of their vertebrae. All resulting in a loss of mobility.

So why does consumption of animal products cause osteoporosis?

Use this chart for an overview on what foods are clasified as alkaline and what foods are acidic: http://www.essense-of-life.com/info/foodchart.htm

First point: Animal protein is very acidic, thus the body must neutralize it. The process that neutralizes the acidic protein involves removing calcium from the bones. Once this process is completed, the calcium and other minerals from the solid bone is passed through the bloodstream to the kidneys where its excreted out through the urine. This results in a huge loss in calcium from the bones. This happening day in and day out also overtax the kidneys.

(Vegetable protein doesn't cause these side effects because they are generally alkaline and not acidic)

This brings me to one of my other points: Kidney stones. When this bone material arrives at the kidneys, over time it will collect, and become solid, resulting in calcium kidney stones. 90% of the incidences of kidney stones found in people who eat the typical western diet are calcium stones, which are created from overconsumption of acidic animal protein.

For example, 10 grams of excess animal protein results in a 50% increase in calcium loss through the urine.

Another study:

"Native Eskimos have the highest dietary calcium intake of any other people in the world-- above 2000 mg per day from fish bones. Their diet is also the highest in the world in protein- up to 400 g per day primarily from fish (Americans rarely eat quite this much). Native Eskimos have the highest rate of osteoporosis in the world."

"In fact, nations with the highest levels of dairy consumption are the same nations with the highest rates of osteoporosis."

"What is undoubtedly clear is that the more PROTEIN a population consumes, the higher its prevalence of osteoporosis. That's correct- there is a direct correlation between protein intake and loss of calcium from the bone. This calcium-wasting effect by protein has been documented time after time in studies for over 70 years. Something to remember is that along with the calcium in your glass of milk there is also a sizable dose of protein. How strong is the effect of protein on calcium loss? If protein intake is doubled without changing intake of other nutrients, calcium in the urine increases by about 50%."

[http://www.msu.edu/~corcora5/food/vegan/osteo.html]

So even though the American Dairy Association goes around telling everyone in order to have strong bones and prevent osteoperosis, you need to drink cows milk and other animal products... It seems logical right? 99% of your bodies calcium is found in your bones, so if you don't wanna lose bone mass, consume calcium right? Unfortunately drinking milk won't help you prevent osteoporosis.

Eskimos who take in an amazing 2000mg of calcium per day also have the highest incidence of osteoperosis? This is due to the equally amazing 250-400grams of animal protein per day that they ingest, and the process which occurs that i've explained in my post.

Discuss.

eddiebo
10-27-2007, 10:53 PM
You're theory is entirely based with the assumption that food alkalinity has the effect you outlined. Food alkalinity/acidity is viewed as pseudo science from what I understand and controversial at best. I'm thinking you're not going much of an argument.

Eric [Tsu]
10-27-2007, 10:55 PM
You're theory is entirely based with the assumption that food alkalinity has the effect you outlined. Food alkalinity/acidity is viewed as pseudo from what I understand and controversial at best. I'm thinking you're not going much of an argument.

Edit:

You hit on a good arguement. My entire theory has a basis that pH level matters. But, it does matter, and I don't know how you can call it "psuedo science"

"So what does pH have to do with you and your blood? Well, the pH of your blood is extremely important. The ideal pH level for your blood is right around 7.35 and your body goes to enormous lengths to maintain this level."

Source: http://ezinearticles.com/?How-Body-pH-Can-Affect-Your-Energy-Levels&id=4670

eddiebo
10-27-2007, 11:00 PM
The alkalinity of the food is probably not what you are looking for. I can think of other things and points of what you said that support the osteporosis argument. My "pseudo scince" is just the term that came to mind. The ph theory has been in a couple wellness books I am aware of.

reefpicker
10-28-2007, 10:08 AM
;90828223']Use this chart for an overview on what foods are clasified as alkaline and what foods are acidic: http://www.essense-of-life.com/info/foodchart.htm

First point: Animal protein is very acidic, thus the body must neutralize it. The process that neutralizes the acidic protein involves removing calcium from the bones. Once this process is completed, the calcium and other minerals from the solid bone is passed through the bloodstream to the kidneys where its excreted out through the urine.



I am not going to discuss how wrong the entire concept of acidic/alkaline food is. If you would like, we can start another thread about that... The poster that said this is pseudo science is right. I am sorry, but there is no support for this. Neither experimental nor mechanistical. (i.e. the human physiology does not work they way it would have to in order for this to be true!)

In regards to the osteoporosis argument, it is an oversimplification of a very complex process and its incorrect.

First, the primary source of Calcium balance is dietary calcium. What happens at the bone has nothing to do with that.

Calcium balance in the bone is related to the levels of a hormone called PTH. Read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parathyroid_hormone.

Here is an explanation of the causes of osteoporosis (still open to research, of course!):
The underlying mechanism in all cases of osteoporosis is an imbalance between bone resorption and bone formation. In normal bone, there is constant matrix remodeling of bone; up to 10% of all bone mass may be undergoing remodeling at any point in time. The process takes place in bone multicellular units (BMUs) as first described by Frost in 1963.[19] Bone is resorbed by osteoclast cells (which derive from the bone marrow), after which new bone is deposited by osteoblast cells. [5]

"The three main mechanisms by which osteoporosis develops are an inadequate peak bone mass (the skeleton develops insufficient mass and strength during growth), excesive bone resorption and inadequate formation of new bone during remodeling. An interplay of these three mechanisms underlies the development of fragile bone tissue.[5] Hormonal factors strongly determine the rate of bone resorption; lack of estrogen (e.g. as a result of menopause) increases bone resorption as well as decreasing the deposition of new bone that normally takes place in weight-bearing bones. The amount of estrogen needed to suppress this process is lower than that normally needed to stimulate the uterus and breast gland. The α-form of the estrogen receptor appears to be the most important in regulating bone turnover.[5] In addition to estrogen, calcium metabolism plays a significant role in bone turnover, and deficiency of calcium and vitamin D leads to impaired bone deposition; in addition, the parathyroid glands react to low calcium levels by secreting parathyroid hormone (parathormone, PTH), which increases bone resorption to ensure sufficient calcium in the blood. The role of calcitonin, a hormone generated by the thyroid that increases bone deposition, is less clear and probably less significant.[5]" (This is from Wikipedia article on osteoporosis).


Having mention this let me now address the issue of acidity and loss of calcium.

Calcium is NOT lost during neutralization of acids in the stomach.

The body uses a sodium bicarbonate buffer system.

I tried real hard to find anything that relates Calcium to pH in blood or stomach and I didnt.

In any event, the way a buffer works, the only thing that is lost is Hydrogen or Carbonate, not the mineral its bound to. This is why when you take antacids that are calcium-based, they actually increase your dietary calcium intake, and your blood Calcium, because its the carbonate that binds to the proton (H+) in the acid... The calcium just serves to trap that carbonate ion in solution until it can bind the proton and release the calcium....

If this explanation is a bit convoluted, I apologize.... I am assuming I am refreshing your chemistry knowledge, not explaining the concept itself... For an in-depth explanation, read about biological buffer systems in any text book or wikipedia...

Now to your other part of the post...







;90828223']

This brings me to one of my other points: Kidney stones. When this bone material arrives at the kidneys, over time it will collect, and become solid, resulting in calcium kidney stones. 90% of the incidences of kidney stones found in people who eat the typical western diet are calcium stones, which are created from overconsumption of acidic animal protein.

For example, 10 grams of excess animal protein results in a 50% increase in calcium loss through the urine.

Another study:

"Native Eskimos have the highest dietary calcium intake of any other people in the world-- above 2000 mg per day from fish bones. Their diet is also the highest in the world in protein- up to 400 g per day primarily from fish (Americans rarely eat quite this much). Native Eskimos have the highest rate of osteoporosis in the world."


Discuss.


When I tell people about the advantages of exercises, I tell them that it helps to build strong bones. Research shows that exercise increases bone strength and decreases the chances of getting osteoporosis later on in life... Just as exercise trains the muscle by building it stronger, exercise also increases bone strength (bone is our skeleton, which means all your muscles are anchored to a bone, which means that every time you pull or push hard on something, a bone in your body is receiving that force!)

True eskimos do not exercise much in winter... They also may have a gene that contributes to osteoporosis. Furthermore, their medical care may not be the greatest, and the reason we see more osteoporosis may be because the woman are not getting treated for menopause....

I am tired of typing and I am not going into the whole kidney stone issue, but I think that you need to understand a bit more of how kidney stones actually form....


Gosh, this is my longest post in a long time!!!

rock_ten
10-28-2007, 10:32 AM
;90828223']> First point: Animal protein is very acidic, thus the body must neutralize it. ... (Vegetable protein doesn't cause these side effects because they are generally alkaline and not acidic

...

> For example, 10 grams of excess animal protein results in a 50% increase in calcium loss through the urine.



> are you saying that vegetable protein is not acidic or that vegetable matter has alkaline components which counter the acidic effect of their proteins?

> Reference, please. And you'll have to define "excess". 10 grams in excess of what level, exactly?

Thanks

Eric [Tsu]
10-28-2007, 01:51 PM
Why would the concept of alkalinity/acidity of food be wrong? It's a pretty simple concept really, all it has to do with is that your body goes to great lengths to preserve a certain pH level in your bloodstream (about 7.35pH), and when food doesn't get digested effectively or isn't used it must be neutralized. (undigested acidic protein must be neutralized)

"WHAT CAUSES ACID IN THE BODY

The primary cause of an acidic condition in your body is from what you put in your mouth. In other words, what you eat and what you drink. And it isn't how "acid" something may seem when you eat or drink it. It has to do with what is left over when you digest it."

Source: http://ezinearticles.com/?How-Body-pH-Can-Affect-Your-Energy-Levels&id=4670

Your second point: Calcium is NOT lost during neutralization of acids in the stomach.

Why do studies show: "The net effect is such that, if protein intake is doubled without changing intake of other nutrients, urinary calcium content increases by about 50 percent." Seems like everything I'm reading is saying that the more animal protein that you consume, the more urinary calcium you have. (This also supports the argument about calcium stones)



When I tell people about the advantages of exercises, I tell them that it helps to build strong bones. Research shows that exercise increases bone strength and decreases the chances of getting osteoporosis later on in life... Just as exercise trains the muscle by building it stronger, exercise also increases bone strength (bone is our skeleton, which means all your muscles are anchored to a bone, which means that every time you pull or push hard on something, a bone in your body is receiving that force!)

I agree, but along with exercise that will decrease your chances for osteoporosis later in life, excess animal protein will increase your chances.


True eskimos do not exercise much in winter... They also may have a gene that contributes to osteoporosis. Furthermore, their medical care may not be the greatest, and the reason we see more osteoporosis may be because the woman are not getting treated for menopause....

True, these circumstances could possibly discredit the study on eskimos, but I think the evidence is too overwhelming, with studies that have this conclusion made for places all over the world.

But the argument about them not being treated for menopause doesn't seem very convincing. Is menopause somehow a flaw in women's design? The industries that produce estrogen pills want you to believe that, and that 100's of years ago when we didn't have any of these pills, women were just screwed after menopause?

Eric [Tsu]
10-28-2007, 02:04 PM
> are you saying that vegetable protein is not acidic or that vegetable matter has alkaline components which counter the acidic effect of their proteins?

Most vegetables are alkaline foods whereas most animal products are acidic foods.


> Reference, please. And you'll have to define "excess". 10 grams in excess of what level, exactly?

Thanks

It will vary, obviously, person to person. Most people overconsume protein by a longshot though.

rock_ten
10-28-2007, 03:08 PM
;90828223']> For example, 10 grams of excess animal protein results in a 50% increase in calcium loss through the urine.



;90983653']It will vary, obviously, person to person. Most people overconsume protein by a longshot though.

well you said "10g" and "50%" which must have come from somewhere. Do you have a reference for that? And where lies the level beyond which more protein is considered an "excess", for the purposes of this particular point.

thanks

rock_ten
10-28-2007, 03:12 PM
;90983653']Most vegetables are alkaline foods whereas most animal products are acidic foods.

What is it about veg that makes them "alkalinising"?

eddiebo
10-28-2007, 06:03 PM
I am going to try to stay out of this thread, but wanted to comment on what I see as a possible mistake. Let me say too Eric, if you're as interested in the human body as it sounds you might gear your studies toward med school or something along those lines. Looking forward to discussions with you in future threads. Take Care


Why do studies show: "The net effect is such that, if protein intake is doubled without changing intake of other nutrients, urinary calcium content increases by about 50 percent." Seems like everything I'm reading is saying that the more animal protein that you consume, the more urinary calcium you have. (This also supports the argument about calcium stones)

About half of the calcium in the blood is bound to protein. Simply put without going into the mechanics, if you increase the protein levels within the blood this will allow for higher blood calcium levels.

reefpicker
10-28-2007, 09:18 PM
;90980303']Why would the concept of alkalinity/acidity of food be wrong?

Because it is.

Simply put, whoever came up with that idea had only a HS-level of knowledge in science.

There are many problems with this idea, let me give you a few relevant fact here...

1) Myth: Food intake affects blood pH levels.
Fact: There are transporters all over you GI tract. This transporters more than often SELECTIVELY transport nutrients into the body (they also excrete things selectively). This means, not all food that is eaten gets into the bloodstream.

Fact: Protein is NOT ingested and transported to the blood as is. It is digested into amino-acids. How can the protein from animals be any different from a vegetable source?????? The body can not tell the source. While some proteins may be more "acidic" or "basic" because of the specific AAs they have, the blood is a BUFFERED system so....

2) Myth: Fluctuations in blood pH affect your health.

If I understand this concept of food acidity, it seems the idea is that your body somehow "fights" to maitain the pH in the blood.

This is true, but how does it work?

The body has 3 lines of defenses for changing blood pH. This is because the actual value is very important to maintain healthy biological functions.

This are the 3 lines of defenses:

1) A buffered system... This means that the body has "reserves" of [H+] ions and salts that can take on excess [H+]... Any time an acid or base enters the blood stream, it picks up or drops off a proton... That proton is then picked up by one of this "buffers"... Thats as simple as I can explain it... (sorry if I am not good at this)... Buffers are "regenerative"... Thus, they just pick and drop protons to maintain the pH at the set point value... No harm is done everytime this buffer reacts to any changes in pH...

A buffer is really like a "bumper" that absorbs mechanical shock... As a scientist, I have to adjust pH of buffered solutions and its such a pain LOL You have to use highly acidic substances to change the pH.. Otherwise it literally bounces back to its set value! Its pretty cool... but i digress...

2) Respiration: By increasing or decreasing CO2 in the blood, the body can control the amount of carbonic acid in the blood... THus compensating for changes in blood pH. This is the acute response to acidosis. If food ingestion caused true metabolic acidosis, the body would not be loosing anything, it would just shift the respiratory rate to compensate... No biggie...

3) Kidneys: See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renal_compensation


;90980303']
doesn't get digested effectively or isn't used it must be neutralized. (undigested acidic protein must be neutralized)


Not digest... Not in blood... No problem for the body..


;90980303']
Your second point: Calcium is NOT lost during neutralization of acids in the stomach.

Why do studies show: "The net effect is such that, if protein intake is doubled without changing intake of other nutrients, urinary calcium content increases by about 50 percent." Seems like everything I'm reading is saying that the more animal protein that you consume, the more urinary calcium you have. (This also supports the argument about calcium stones)


I would like to see those studies first...


;90980303']
But the argument about them not being treated for menopause doesn't seem very convincing. Is menopause somehow a flaw in women's design? The industries that produce estrogen pills want you to believe that, and that 100's of years ago when we didn't have any of these pills, women were just screwed after menopause?

OMG NO! Its not a flaw in women's "design"! LOL I could get stones thrown at me for saying that!!

I agree that their is a push from the industry to convince woman to take this estrogen pills that we really dont know if they work well or not...

But going back to your comment about menopause.. The simple answer to your question is STEROIDS.... Estrogen and related hormones that are not produced by the ovary of menopausal woman...

Its not just the pharmacological industry... its a fact of life... We still dont understand menopause well enough to actually offer a good therapeutic regime that can substitute for the natural estrogen production but we are getting there .... Thats another topic...